PDA

View Full Version : Is M&M on FantasyGrounds dead?



SheckyS
March 27th, 2017, 22:05
This forum is marked "Old" and the Game Calendar doesn't even list M&M as a viable search option.
Has M&M support been essentially abandoned?

Does FantasyGrounds support any other super-hero RPGs? I hear Savage Worlds does superheros kinda. Is it any good?

Trenloe
March 27th, 2017, 22:15
"Old" just means that there are no "New" posts that you haven't read in that forum. It is not something that SmiteWorks use to mark a ruleset as "Old".

M&M certainly has a small following compared to the more mainstream rulesets. So you are probably going to struggle to find a game as a player quickly. But, if you're going to run a game as a GM then I reckon you'll get some players.

Savage Worlds is an excellent system and the Super Powers Companion contains a lot of useful material for running superhero based games: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/store/product.xcp?id=S2P10501FG2 This needs the base Savage Worlds ruleset: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/store/product.xcp?id=DGASW3

vodokar
March 28th, 2017, 01:01
The most important thing to know is that the ruleset still functions and is being maintained compatible with current version of Fantasy Grounds. I agree with Trenloe. If you want to take the initiative to be GM, you will likely find some players to join, but I'm not currently aware of any GM's running games of M&M (or DC Superheroes for that matter).

I've done superheroes on SW. It can be done. Not sure if I would recommend it though. SW is a super game for running pulp style action adventure, up to and including Pulp Style Silver Age Supers in the vein of the Shadow and Doc Savage, Green Hornet etc. I don't feel it does Golden Age style supers well, though. Just my opinion. Games like M&M, Villains and Vigilantes, Champions, Marvel Super Heroes etc. were built from the ground up to support full fledged comic book style superheroes. SW wasn't and it stretches the power curve balance pretty far to try to make it do it.

DrakosDJ
March 28th, 2017, 06:28
The most important thing to know is that the ruleset still functions and is being maintained compatible with current version of Fantasy Grounds. I agree with Trenloe. If you want to take the initiative to be GM, you will likely find some players to join, but I'm not currently aware of any GM's running games of M&M (or DC Superheroes for that matter).

I'm not sure that the highlighted text above is true. As far as I know, SW is not doing any "maintenance" to the ruleset. It is still usable primarily because SW left in some backwards compatibility. It just doesn't use the newer functionality.

There was a group supposedly doing a FG II 3.0 update, but I haven't seen anything concerning that in quite a long time, so that effort is probably dead.

As I said though, the ruleset still works, just not a lot of people using it as far as I can tell.

viresanimi
March 28th, 2017, 14:11
M&M is one of the rulesets that I routinely test (and break) whenever there is a test build and Moonwizard has so far made sure that this ruleset works. Which is great since this is store item.

Vires Animi

DrakosDJ
March 29th, 2017, 04:34
M&M is one of the rulesets that I routinely test (and break) whenever there is a test build and Moonwizard has so far made sure that this ruleset works. Which is great since this is store item.

Vires Animi

Does he make it work by adjusting the new code of patching the M&M ruleset? I ask because I have the rulset and have not see an update download for it in years.

viresanimi
March 29th, 2017, 12:25
I am not qualified to answer that. Only Moonwizard can illuminate this issue.

Moon Wizard
March 29th, 2017, 18:43
I only make adjustments when an issue is reported that is caused by a FG main client update; I do not make any other changes.

Cheers,
JPG

SheckyS
March 30th, 2017, 22:51
Well.. I can't really DM, since I am totally new to M&M. And if there are no games out there starting up or looking for players, I guess I am out of luck. Thanks for all the info, though.

ProfDogg
April 15th, 2017, 13:11
Is there a manual for the M&M set? I'm playing around with it with the intention of running a game and I'm running into little issues that keep stumping me.

Moon Wizard
April 15th, 2017, 19:07
There's not a specific manual for M&M. Most of the features are similar to other rulesets, so you should be able to use the wiki/manual/videos for basic features of FG.

There's also a module included which is an FG version of the Heroes Handbook.

Regards,
JPG

ProfDogg
April 16th, 2017, 03:50
There's not a specific manual for M&M. Most of the features are similar to other rulesets, so you should be able to use the wiki/manual/videos for basic features of FG.

There's also a module included which is an FG version of the Heroes Handbook.

Regards,
JPG

No offense but that doesn't help me ase there seems to be a lack of function with the M&M module. I'm looking at the M&M module and trying to figure out combat in relation to other modules I'm using. For example, how does a Hero make a Toughness save vs an opponent's Damage effect. I can just have the Hero roll free-style and do the math in my head but other modules have targeting and this auto-calculations.

vodokar
April 16th, 2017, 04:14
I'm not sure if you are specifically have your heart set on playing M&M in Fantasy Grounds, or just want to play a superhero game. But, I'll provide this information anyway, which you may or may not find helpful, as it is timely.

The full 65 book run of Champions 4th edition is currently available thru Bundle of Holding (https://bundleofholding.com/presents/Champions4Essentials?utm_source=sendy&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=223Champions4E) at a steal of a bargain. You can either opt for the full thing or a reduced subsection of the collection, though I would recommend getting the whole thing while its available at this greatly reduced price.

Champions is a simple enough system that it could be run via MoreCore. I picked this up and I will be investigating the inns and outs of the functionality soon and will be working on a MoreCore extension or roll, if needed, in order to get things to work the way they need to.

ProfDogg
April 16th, 2017, 04:27
I saw that! Great stuff, great deal... but as a GM I'm all about M&M. Hero System is so very cumbersome to run in comparison. Playing-wise, I could flip a coin though. I love the Champions Universe though and have done quite a few M&M conversions.

Moon Wizard
April 16th, 2017, 04:44
The M&M ruleset does not have the same level of automation as other mor popular rulesets. This happened because the ruleset was built when M&M was new, and the developer who wrote it no longer supports it.

Almost all of the products sold through our store are developed by third party developers. We work to maintain compatibility with all the products in our store (>600), but we don't have the resources to update every game system with all the latest features. we depend on the developers to do that.

Currently, this ruleset does not have a developer, and no one has offered to update so far.

As with all our products and DLC, please let us know if you aren't happy with a recent purchase, and we can process a refund.

Regards,
JPG

DrakosDJ
April 16th, 2017, 06:55
No offense but that doesn't help me ase there seems to be a lack of function with the M&M module. I'm looking at the M&M module and trying to figure out combat in relation to other modules I'm using. For example, how does a Hero make a Toughness save vs an opponent's Damage effect. I can just have the Hero roll free-style and do the math in my head but other modules have targeting and this auto-calculations.

The system does allow for targeting and it will roll automatically for toughness saves, or any other save, correctly as long as the powers and defenses are entered correctly. There are a few items that are not automated such as correctly handling Area Effects, but for the most part it does fine with more straight forward rules.

The main issue is no manual to explain how to correctly set up the character sheets and the NPC sheets. Also, except for the Heroes Handbook, there were no modules created with pregenerated content like there is for many of the other systems. There is a thread the gives some information on using the ruleset here (http://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?17003-A-few-observations-and-suggestions-about-the-Ruleset&p=128567&viewfull=1#post128567) but it is far from complete.

Blackfoot
April 16th, 2017, 07:41
I'm not sure if you are specifically have your heart set on playing M&M in Fantasy Grounds, or just want to play a superhero game. But, I'll provide this information anyway, which you may or may not find helpful, as it is timely.

The full 65 book run of Champions 4th edition is currently available thru Bundle of Holding (https://bundleofholding.com/presents/Champions4Essentials?utm_source=sendy&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=223Champions4E) at a steal of a bargain. You can either opt for the full thing or a reduced subsection of the collection, though I would recommend getting the whole thing while its available at this greatly reduced price.

Champions is a simple enough system that it could be run via MoreCore. I picked this up and I will be investigating the inns and outs of the functionality soon and will be working on a MoreCore extension or roll, if needed, in order to get things to work the way they need to.
I have a basically complete Champions Ruleset... with tons of bells and whistles... the combat tracker alone makes running Champions WAY easier. There's more info on it.. umm.
HERE (http://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/group.php?groupid=3) and HERE (http://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?20112-Champions-HERO-System-Ruleset-FG-3-0&highlight=Champions).

ProfDogg
April 16th, 2017, 18:17
The M&M ruleset does not have the same level of automation as other mor popular rulesets. This happened because the ruleset was built when M&M was new, and the developer who wrote it no longer supports it.

Almost all of the products sold through our store are developed by third party developers. We work to maintain compatibility with all the products in our store (>600), but we don't have the resources to update every game system with all the latest features. we depend on the developers to do that.

Currently, this ruleset does not have a developer, and no one has offered to update so far.

As with all our products and DLC, please let us know if you aren't happy with a recent purchase, and we can process a refund.

Regards,
JPG

Thanks, MW. I very well may. I'd love to have a fully functioning FG VTT for M&M (or the knowledge and skills to make it work). If anyone ever gets around to improving it, I'd repurchase it.

ProfDogg
April 16th, 2017, 18:17
I have a basically complete Champions Ruleset... with tons of bells and whistles... the combat tracker alone makes running Champions WAY easier. There's more info on it.. umm.
HERE (http://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/group.php?groupid=3) and HERE (http://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?20112-Champions-HERO-System-Ruleset-FG-3-0&highlight=Champions).

OK, Blackfoot, I may have to buckle down and try it. Thank you...

SheckyS
April 16th, 2017, 20:06
I have a basically complete Champions Ruleset... with tons of bells and whistles... the combat tracker alone makes running Champions WAY easier. There's more info on it.. umm.
HERE (http://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/group.php?groupid=3) and HERE (http://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?20112-Champions-HERO-System-Ruleset-FG-3-0&highlight=Champions).

I'm confused. Are you saying you have Champions modules for FG? If so.. how do I get them? :)

SheckyS
April 16th, 2017, 20:08
I got a response on facebook from a guy named Steve. Not sure what his position is, if he works for FG or what, but he claimed to be doing a complete re-write of the M&M module for FG to bring it into line with all of the other supported games, because the current M&M module is extremely limited and basically unplayable. Steve (whoever he is) says he is in testing now and hopes to have the modules ready by this summer.

Trenloe
April 16th, 2017, 20:11
... and basically unplayable.
It's certainly not unplayable. It doesn't have some of the bells and whistles that the 5E ruleset has spoilt people into expecting, but it's still totally playable. I think the main thing is the lacking ruleset specific documentation/guidelines.

Blackfoot
April 16th, 2017, 20:25
I'm confused. Are you saying you have Champions modules for FG? If so.. how do I get them? :)Modules, no. Ruleset, yes. I've been trying to work out an arrangement between Smiteworks and HERO for a while now... but it seems to have stalled.

vodokar
April 17th, 2017, 00:51
I have a basically complete Champions Ruleset... with tons of bells and whistles... the combat tracker alone makes running Champions WAY easier. There's more info on it.. umm.
HERE (http://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/group.php?groupid=3) and HERE (http://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?20112-Champions-HERO-System-Ruleset-FG-3-0&highlight=Champions).

I love you, man! That looks totally awesome. I must have. Where can I download? Didn't see any link. I understand you don't have permission to share any manuals. That's fine for me. I just want the ruleset.

Blackfoot
April 17th, 2017, 00:56
The plan was to put it out as a commercial ruleset. Hero Games was interested... but I don't know what happened from there.

bawsr
April 17th, 2017, 01:45
I bought Mutants and Mastermind but I have been a Champions player since 1st edition (which I still have sitting around). I have shelves of the stuff! It would be fantastic to have Champions for FG... I know a number of people who would be in line for buying that. I wouldn't mind modules for Mutants&masterminds either :)

vodokar
April 17th, 2017, 03:11
Well, it's your decision on if you want to make it a commercial ruleset or not, but my advice would be to just release it as a community ruleset. If you ensure that there isn't any proprietary artwork and, as you said, there aren't any rules modules, you don't need anyone's permission to release it. It looks like the ruleset has been ready for quite some time. Please consider releasing it. If you wait to get official permission, it is likely it won't ever get released. And that would be a real shame, because it is quite obvious how hard you've worked on it. I'd be happy to make a paypal donation to you directly for it if you release it and likely some others would too.

ProfDogg
April 17th, 2017, 03:28
Curse you, Blackfoot!!! I'm all misty-eyed looking through all of these old pdf's now... OK, I'm still a game snob with a slight distaste for Hero System now that I've played other games but Gawds-Darn (!!!) it I feel like a 12 year old again reading through this and I want to play... Release the set and I'll send you some money too... I was just refunded the M&M module so I'll send you $20.

Blackfoot
April 17th, 2017, 03:29
I don't think I can legally accept money for my work on the ruleset unless it's an official release... otherwise I'm into all sorts of messy stuff.

vodokar
April 17th, 2017, 03:52
you did the work didn't you? Isn't your time worth something? I'm not offering to buy the ruleset. I'm offering to make a donation in saying thanks for your hard work. Whether you choose to accept it is up to you. Afterall, it's the thought that counts, as they say. No one could possibly compensate you for the time you've put into this, and a small donation is really just a gesture of thanks and a compliment of your work likely worth more than the money itself. I know first hand what type of hard work goes into it. Regardless, I would still consider releasing the ruleset as a community ruleset. Otherwise, it is likely it will never get to be released.

ProfDogg
April 17th, 2017, 04:40
you did the work didn't you? Isn't your time worth something? I'm not offering to buy the ruleset. I'm offering to make a donation in saying thanks for your hard work. Whether you choose to accept it is up to you. Afterall, it's the thought that counts, as they say. No one could possibly compensate you for the time you've put into this, and a small donation is really just a gesture of thanks and a compliment of your work likely worth more than the money itself. I know first hand what type of hard work goes into it. Regardless, I would still consider releasing the ruleset as a community ruleset. Otherwise, it is likely it will never get to be released.

Merry Christmas!!! I know it's April (or May, or June, or whenever a certain ruleset gets released) but I can feel the cheer in the air... And I'm all about exchanging gifts...

Wookiee420
April 17th, 2017, 08:01
This might not be new to everyone but my buddies over at d20pfsrd and Open Gaming Store just updated this, as well as their other SRD stuffs...I am no expert in M&M but it seems to be all the info
http://www.d20herosrd.com/?mc_cid=86e3a4a90b&mc_eid=86251cf2c7

SheckyS
April 17th, 2017, 17:54
It's certainly not unplayable. It doesn't have some of the bells and whistles that the 5E ruleset has spoilt people into expecting, but it's still totally playable. I think the main thing is the lacking ruleset specific documentation/guidelines.

You can't even resize the windows. That, to me, is unplayable. I mean... okay, yeah, TECHNICALLY it's possible to play. But it's technically possible to surf the web with a dial-up modem, too, and no one who has any choice in the matter does it. :-P

SheckyS
April 17th, 2017, 17:57
This might not be new to everyone but my buddies over at d20pfsrd and Open Gaming Store just updated this, as well as their other SRD stuffs...I am no expert in M&M but it seems to be all the info
http://www.d20herosrd.com/?mc_cid=86e3a4a90b&mc_eid=86251cf2c7

Yeah, this is awesome. Been using this as a reference for a while, now. I bought the book, so I have all the info, anyway, but it's really useful to have what is essentiall a searchable copy. Not to mention I can copy and paste stuff stuff right from here onto my character sheet. :)

Trenloe
April 17th, 2017, 18:03
You can't even resize the windows. That, to me, is unplayable. I mean... okay, yeah, TECHNICALLY it's possible to play.
See Windows -> Sizing here: http://www.fantasygrounds.com/wiki/index.php/The_Basics#Windows

Just because you don't know how to do something doesn't mean it can't be done. Hence my comment "I think the main thing is the lacking ruleset specific documentation/guidelines."

The ruleset *is* playable, it just uses some of the pre FG 3.0 way of doing things - something that many FG users had been playing fine with for nearly 10 years. Hence why Moon Wizard mentioned the standard user guides (post #11) - because these still detail how to do things in the interface the "traditional" way.

cyphus5
May 17th, 2017, 09:34
Hey SheckyS,
I've ran M&M3e at the table before, and I do plan to run it on FG sometime in the future. I'll keep in mind when that day comes. I'll most likely run in the DC Adventures universe, because I'm a big DC fanboy.

DrakosDJ
May 18th, 2017, 06:31
I'd appreciate it if you kept me in mind as well.

MrJimbo
June 12th, 2017, 22:15
I ran a M&M campaign (Stranger things inspired) and I felt really cheated and had to convince my new players it was worth it to learn FG 2.0 with all kind of issues.

On the other side of this project: I will never do it again! No M&M unless it's 3.0 and I want a clear warning at the store that it is 2.0!

I don't want my money back, you should use it to make the modules great with more modules to buy. I l have very little time as GM to prepare but all D&D 5e materials with works great - M&M Don't even scale icons on the map to my grid and helping users with editing their characters gets messed up every time in the power section.

I loved M&M but I hate to never play it again - but no 3.0 as it sounds, It will be the end of it. :(

Wookiee420
June 12th, 2017, 22:39
I ran a M&M campaign (Stranger things inspired) and I felt really cheated and had to convince my new players it was worth it to learn FG 2.0 with all kind of issues.

On the other side of this project: I will never do it again! No M&M unless it's 3.0 and I want a clear warning at the store that it is 2.0!

I don't want my money back, you should use it to make the modules great with more modules to buy. I l have very little time as GM to prepare but all D&D 5e materials with works great - M&M Don't even scale icons on the map to my grid and helping users with editing their characters gets messed up every time in the power section.

I loved M&M but I hate to never play it again - but no 3.0 as it sounds, It will be the end of it. :(

The store says its designed for 2.9.9 I would guess that that means it isnt designed for 3.0?
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/store/product.xcp?id=GRR5501eFG2

MrJimbo
June 12th, 2017, 23:53
The store says its designed for 2.9.9 I would guess that that means it isnt designed for 3.0?
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/store/product.xcp?id=GRR5501eFG2

I still think for a first time user, like me, only knowing about 3.0.0 and forward, a small note about 2.9.9 is not enough. I know I had a thought "how bad can it be?", right!? One minor tic (like 299 -> 300) should be almost like the 3.0 one could argue wrongfully. ;)
It is day and night! I now have to force my beaten friends to use FG again (this time 3.0).
So I think ALL (seller and buyer) would greatly benefit if this came up before you buy, also with a feature overview (so you know you have to resize every token you will use by hand). It should be stated everywhere "Only 2.0|OLD".
I love FG and I want all new users to have a positive experience! I got "fooled" and I don't want anyone else to be. Thats all :)

Trenloe
June 13th, 2017, 00:04
...so you know you have to resize every token you will use by hand...
FYI - you resize one token on a map and then lock the scale. Then all tokens will have that scale - you don't need to scale each one by hand.

I know that for some people looking at pre-3.0 CoreRPG based rulesets that it seems like the ruleset is unusable. I can say that it is not unusable - FG was perfectly usable for the 9 years before FG 3.0 came out. It is just that you're now spoiled with some of the 3.0 functionality and expect every ruleset to work that way.

Lots and lots and lots of people use the Star Wars (FFG) ruleset (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?24151-Star-Wars-Edge-of-the-Empire-Age-of-Rebellion-Force-and-Destiny-v2-ruleset) which is pre FG 3.0 - it doesn't have token scaling and all of the other FG 3.0 new features. But, it's the 6th most used FG ruleset in 2016, with 6,427 sessions. Data here: http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?3507-Who-s-Playing-What-on-Fantasy-Grounds#.WT8OkmjyuZQ

So, whereas it would be nice for every single ruleset to be 100% FG 3.0 compatible, it does not stop you playing! Yes, there is some re-learning of the "old ways" (which are still valid ways and documented in the user guide in the Wiki), but pre FG 3.0 rulesets are still playable.

Trenloe
June 13th, 2017, 00:08
Like I said in April this year - the main issue is that there is no user manual specific to the M&M ruleset. If this was available, outlining how to do things within the M&M specific ruleset, then I think this would go a long way to alleviating some new M&M user issues.

As the ENWorld stats I posted above show - there were nearly 20 sessions of M&M a week ran in 2016 - so some people seem to be able to use it to play!

MrJimbo
June 13th, 2017, 00:16
Good to know about the token lock scale - next time I make sure all tokens are the same size (they were not)

I also like "old" games - things you thought was the greatest in the world 10 year back - you still would be disappointed if you buy it now as a new game.
My view; New to FG lured in with great videos about 3.0+ awesome features, tried out Roll20 before I payed for FG; I still think this is more important than old gamers might think.
None of my friends says anything positive about the whole experience from M&M but my friends on D&D going back to Roll20 for a game complaining about all they miss.
This is probably the wrong thread for this to come through and I will try to give FG-team this feedback - I'm still only one out of million customers so no worries, it's great that you like it :)

ProfDogg
September 30th, 2017, 15:33
I'm back to playing around with M&M on FG now... Now that I've been screwing around with other rulesets, coming back was one of those "duh" moments when I realized how little I knew when I started on it. Still, there are a lot of features that really need to be implemented and some quirks that need to be ironed out. The combat tracker is nearly next to worthless except to track initiative order that I can tell. Now that Green Ronin is back to making M&M material, any word on someone picking it back up and working further on it?

Also, does anyone know a means of "separating" multiple abilities in any one field? For example, sometimes when I load two different attack abilities in the "Offense" fields, only one becomes highlighted to roll in the chat box. But sometimes I magically make both options and I hadn't done anything different. Any insight?

- Prof.Dogg

ProfDogg
September 30th, 2017, 18:22
Also, I bought some superhero tokens through the FG site. Anyone know how to activate the token modules in M&M? The Tokens icon doesn't have an option and there's no "books" in the library to open.

Talyn
September 30th, 2017, 18:32
Token modules are "hidden" inside Tokens -> Modules. :)

ProfDogg
September 30th, 2017, 18:46
Thanks... I kept looking in the Library and Tokens windows to find the "invisible" button for it. It's in upper right-hand corner instead... Ugh... Got it now though...

ProfDogg
September 30th, 2017, 19:34
I'm back to playing around with M&M on FG now... Now that I've been screwing around with other rulesets, coming back was one of those "duh" moments when I realized how little I knew when I started on it. Still, there are a lot of features that really need to be implemented and some quirks that need to be ironed out. The combat tracker is nearly next to worthless except to track initiative order that I can tell. Now that Green Ronin is back to making M&M material, any word on someone picking it back up and working further on it?

Also, does anyone know a means of "separating" multiple abilities in any one field? For example, sometimes when I load two different attack abilities in the "Offense" fields, only one becomes highlighted to roll in the chat box. But sometimes I magically make both options and I hadn't done anything different. Any insight?

- Prof.Dogg

Never mind... Discovered the colons are my enemy...

- Prof.Dogg

MartynJFogg
May 13th, 2018, 12:13
Savage Worlds plus Super Powers Companion works absolutely brilliantly for power levels at least up to Four Colour. I have more fun doing this than any other genre.