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Pollution
February 22nd, 2017, 16:49
With the latest update to FG, including the nifty table updates with templates and all that, are we expecting the same to happen with Savage Worlds?

Example, in ETU, there's a Party Generator.

Using a template, a random party could be created.

As it stands, ETU doesn't have any roll-ability on their tables (just text).

Thanks!

Ikael
February 22nd, 2017, 22:26
With the latest update to FG, including the nifty table updates with templates and all that, are we expecting the same to happen with Savage Worlds?

Example, in ETU, there's a Party Generator.

Using a template, a random party could be created.

As it stands, ETU doesn't have any roll-ability on their tables (just text).

Thanks!

SavageWorlds ruleset already supports those features but it's content developers decision to support those or not. At least Nemezis product contains nice adventure generator (as story template) and Doswelk is interested in doing new generators in some of his conversions. Time will tell

Topdecker
February 22nd, 2017, 23:19
I don't know, Ikael. The "content developers decision to support those or not" helps create a very uneven product line and there should be some sort of metric for acceptable products.

I think that it is safe to say that the consumer in this market sort of expects to be paying, in part, for automation. If there is some simple table that could be used more than once or twice, I am not sure WHAT the justification would be to not take 30 minutes and do it right. Complex, deeply nested stuff I can understand being a technical challenge that someone might not be able to overcome. Tables that would be used just for a single encounter I can see skipping though it still makes me frown since a table with 4 or 5 slots takes no time to build.

damned
February 23rd, 2017, 06:34
I don't know, Ikael. The "content developers decision to support those or not" helps create a very uneven product line and there should be some sort of metric for acceptable products.

I think that it is safe to say that the consumer in this market sort of expects to be paying, in part, for automation. If there is some simple table that could be used more than once or twice, I am not sure WHAT the justification would be to not take 30 minutes and do it right. Complex, deeply nested stuff I can understand being a technical challenge that someone might not be able to overcome. Tables that would be used just for a single encounter I can see skipping though it still makes me frown since a table with 4 or 5 slots takes no time to build.

The feature set changes all the time.
Older products are only updated some times.

Doswelk
February 23rd, 2017, 13:52
Rippers was well into being converted before I hit a snag and cannot complete the tables at this time.

If a table needs to modify the next table you cannot do it at the moment.

Pollution
February 23rd, 2017, 14:11
Rippers was well into being converted before I hit a snag and cannot complete the tables at this time.

If a table needs to modify the next table you cannot do it at the moment.

Yeah, that's part of the issue I was seeing.

I set up the Random Party Generator in ETU using 4 tables. Story Template housing the system itself (and then straight up replaced what was in the core rule set for this camapign)
Tables were:

Party Size
Party Location
Special Guest
Party Trouble

The issue I ran into were modifications. Higher rolls on size meant +'s to Guest, but since I couldn't do that, I ignored it. I didn't see a way to EASILY go around the lack of variables option.

NOW, that being said, there is a way around it, but it's ugly.

Create Party Size table. Where there's a bonus to the roll for "Special Guest", instead of referring to "Special Guest", refer to "Special Guest +1," a new table that is exactly like "Special Guest" but it's shifted up one slot. Essentially eliminating the 2-3 section. Then for the +2, another table missing 2-4. It's pretty straightforward, but takes a while to build the tables.

So instead of 4 tables to get my result, it'd be more like 12 in the end.

If you're serious about getting Rippers set up, try that.

Pollution
February 23rd, 2017, 14:19
I'm also a bit sad about ETU's support.

I'm coming into FG from Realm Works, where, after a huge blowout with their lead dev about business practices, I decided to put my money elsewhere (I was putting in data as a contractor, and Lone Wolf was being... unreasonable and... rude to my 3PP client, so I bailed on their product).

In my previous experience in Realm Works, I could put in Degrees of Horror in about 3 hours or so, maybe 4 if I wanted to get funky fresh. But using FG that same process would take.... longer... A lot longer...

I LOVED the price point for ETU, all those 1-sheets + rules + archetypes! Great deal. But I was hoping to see Degrees of Horror converted or Class Ring, or even the newer 1 sheets.

But nothing in the last few years, so I'm not holding my breath on support/updates for that.

Which makes me cry even harder if they don't convert Savage Rifts. My Degrees of Horror campaign will end in a Rift experience (spoiler, it makes sense with the end of that story), and I was planning on straight up continuing their game into Rifts Earth.

So, maybe it'll get converted?

When was the last SW ruleset released? I know v.4 came out last month for the Ruleset, but a whole PAK file type update.

Talyn
February 23rd, 2017, 15:26
I don't know, Ikael. The "content developers decision to support those or not" helps create a very uneven product line and there should be some sort of metric for acceptable products.

The majority of the DLC is from community developers. Ikael is one of them, and he was recently officially promoted to the Savage Worlds ruleset developer. But he's still a community developer. He doesn't work for SmiteWorks, he doesn't go to the office, clock in and sit in his cubicle... I'm also a community developer. I do this stuff in my limited spare time. Ikael is a brand-new dad so it's a tossup between he and I who has the least amount of actual spare time LOL. :p Also, like any other community, people come and go. Some people who made older DLC are no longer in the community, so who's going to update their stuff? Some other developers, especially (this is purely my perception of things, potentially not based on actual facts or communicating with these people) those for whom English is not their first, or even second, language, may not "get" that they could do things to update DLC they've already released and thought they were done with.

For Savage Worlds, over the past few months, I'd say Deadlands has gotten the most updates. But it was also the most problematic (a nice way to say "broken") with the 3.2 update. For ETU, I'm not even sure who the developer is (I don't own that setting yet) but again -- we do this in our spare time, so has that developer had the time to learn about FG's new features and consider a way to implement them into ETU? Is he even interested in revisiting that or has he moved on to other projects? Is he currently not an active community developer, possibly?

As for these random tables which started the thread, those are CoreRPG functions and apply to all CoreRPG-layered rulesets, of which Savage Worlds is one. So "making them work" isn't up to Ikael. They already work "as intended" for a new feature. As SmiteWorks iterates the features, they will automatically get improved for every other CoreRPG-layered ruleset.


Which makes me cry even harder if they don't convert Savage Rifts. My Degrees of Horror campaign will end in a Rift experience (spoiler, it makes sense with the end of that story), and I was planning on straight up continuing their game into Rifts Earth.

So, maybe it'll get converted?

Get yourself a box of tissues then. :( The license agreement to produce Savage Rifts states that PDF is the only permitted electronic format. So no official FG conversion. Several GMs are doing their own personal versions but they're not allowed to distribute those, etc.

Talyn
February 23rd, 2017, 15:44
Well, I answered one of my questions for myself: both Ian and Eric are active in the community, and Ian is an active developer. An extremely busy one, at that. Without having asked either of them myself, it's possible they just haven't considered revisiting ETU and adding new features that didn't exist within FG when they released it. It's also possible they're fine with it as-is and don't wish to work on it. I dunno.

Topdecker
February 23rd, 2017, 21:09
So by 'community developer' you mean working for free (well, probably rewarded with products) or working on a contract and then supporting the products largely for a third party?

Talyn
February 23rd, 2017, 22:13
We're freelancers on a contract.

Doswelk
February 23rd, 2017, 23:40
Yeah, that's part of the issue I was seeing.
...
NOW, that being said, there is a way around it, but it's ugly.
...
So instead of 4 tables to get my result, it'd be more like 12 in the end.
...
If you're serious about getting Rippers set up, try that.

The problem with that is that table 12 of the science fiction companion (World Builder) would need to have nine versions!

From a automatic rolling tables perspective it would work BUT all nine tables will appear in tables list in FG, that would be really messy and look a bit crap in my opinion.

Not trying to pour scorn upon you work-around, just hoping that Moon Wizard will add functionality to FG instead :)

damned
February 24th, 2017, 00:30
I'm also a bit sad about ETU's support.

I'm coming into FG from Realm Works, where, after a huge blowout with their lead dev about business practices, I decided to put my money elsewhere (I was putting in data as a contractor, and Lone Wolf was being... unreasonable and... rude to my 3PP client, so I bailed on their product).

In my previous experience in Realm Works, I could put in Degrees of Horror in about 3 hours or so, maybe 4 if I wanted to get funky fresh. But using FG that same process would take.... longer... A lot longer...

I LOVED the price point for ETU, all those 1-sheets + rules + archetypes! Great deal. But I was hoping to see Degrees of Horror converted or Class Ring, or even the newer 1 sheets.

But nothing in the last few years, so I'm not holding my breath on support/updates for that.

Which makes me cry even harder if they don't convert Savage Rifts. My Degrees of Horror campaign will end in a Rift experience (spoiler, it makes sense with the end of that story), and I was planning on straight up continuing their game into Rifts Earth.

So, maybe it'll get converted?

When was the last SW ruleset released? I know v.4 came out last month for the Ruleset, but a whole PAK file type update.


This is one of the downfalls of an every improving platform.
Sometimes it breaks products outright - but SW will usually fix those if the Dev cant.
But going back and adding in all the new features can be a lot of work for little reward.

If you made a list of those features you really felt were sorely lacking it might get attention.

Talyn
February 24th, 2017, 01:57
From a automatic rolling tables perspective it would work BUT all nine tables will appear in tables list in FG, that would be really messy and look a bit crap in my opinion.

I have that exact same opinion, which is why I hide those tables from the campaign sidebar if it's going to be an issue. :) You can still link to them for auto-rolls but it sure cuts down on the mess.

Topdecker
February 24th, 2017, 06:01
But using FG that same process would take.... longer... A lot longer....

I also have and use Realm Works. Why does it take longer?

I ask because I haven't noticed a lot of difference. I mean, yeah, if I build a bunch of live encounters as to include entering NPC data, I will spend more time in FG. But if I am just placing background/setting info, I tend to spend more time in Realm Works because it can be organized to a greater degree.

Doswelk
February 24th, 2017, 11:56
I have that exact same opinion, which is why I hide those tables from the campaign sidebar if it's going to be an issue. :) You can still link to them for auto-rolls but it sure cuts down on the mess.

ooh!

How do i hide them from the sidebar?

Talyn
February 24th, 2017, 13:29
ooh!

How do i hide them from the sidebar?

Instead of putting the ones I don't want in the sidebar into <tables> I might do <hidden_tables> or something similar. Or I want to hide multiple data types, I might do something like:


<hidden>
<tables> ... </tables>
<images> ... </images>
<encounter> ... </encounter>
</hidden>


Or for that matter, I may use a totally different node name like <autorolls> instead of <tables> or <artwork> instead of <images> since JPG has recently been telling FG to fill those sidebars with stuff people had previously tucked out of the way on purpose.

JohnD
February 24th, 2017, 14:28
Speaking purely as a customer, I expect advances in the software functionality to work their way into existing products. Perhaps not immediately, but eventually, especially when questions like this thread arise.

Otherwise you're looking at a very uneven experience as a user. If this isn't going to happen, there should be a disclaimer on the product page to indicate "not full featured" or something like that. If you're still paying the full price it's reasonable to expect the full package.

Talyn
February 24th, 2017, 14:58
And yet you're a C&C GM so you're already well-aware that stuff gets released which maybe or maybe not uses all the "new shinies" at the time then that developer moves on to other stuff (or leaves the FG community period) meanwhile features get added to the FG client. A huge chunk of the C&C stuff right now is from 2009, pre-SmiteWorks. As far as I've been told, I'm the only idiot who's come in and said "hey, this old stuff is old, mind if I remaster it?" Which I had to kinda sell that idea because while SmiteWorks absolutely wants all the DLC to be relevant, it's new DLC that gets new customers and keeps existing ones, not remastering old DLC for free. And even then... I'm making stuff for 3.2 (now 3.3 apparently) so when 4.0 comes out if it has all-new features, am I going to go back and add in new stuff? Probably not, but maybe, it just depends. But that's me: I'll at least leave that option on the table. Other community devs may not, as we've seen.

JohnD
February 24th, 2017, 15:07
Yeah, and I've voiced my disappointment in general with the state of some of what I paid for. If updating products isn't in the plan, the prices should go down after a while. I don't have to tell anyone what it's like to open a product and find your maps aren't optimised for VTT use, or NPCs are incomplete, or items aren't present or functional... you've seen the need yourself.

Anyways, I've already spent my $1000+ US on FG products so perhaps I'm contrasting and comparing with a wider frame of reference than the average user.

Talyn
February 24th, 2017, 15:22
Oh, I totally agree with the price thing. I also think it would be nice if FG would go along with publisher sales. If TLG or FGG or whomever has a sale on certain digital products, either on their site or on DriveThruRPG then why not have FG match that sale? On the videogame end of things if a publisher like say Ubisoft has a sale, that sale often occurs on their own platform Uplay, Steam, and both consoles.

I don't know that there's a solution to this particular issue, though. As has been stated in many threads, including this one, we do this stuff in our spare time and communities have a revolving door population. Moon Wizard doesn't step into someone's DLC unless an update flat-out breaks it and that developer isn't around to fix it themselves, and when he does it's to fix what's broken not to add new shinies to it.

I do like that the store page now lists the release date and FG version that brand new DLC was released under. That doesn't help old stuff but it's a step in the right direction.

As for optimized maps... I do what I can but the bottom line is (at least for C&C) TLG has their heads firmly in the 80s and their maps are either "graph paper" (which I can work with) or plain "white paper" where I'm left to my own devices and cross my fingers.

JohnD
February 24th, 2017, 16:31
Yeah I understand that people can only work with what they're given, but at the same time I feel it is important to voice an opinion on what I want to see. :)

Mask_of_winter
February 25th, 2017, 00:57
I'm also a bit sad about ETU's support.

I'm coming into FG from Realm Works, where, after a huge blowout with their lead dev about business practices, I decided to put my money elsewhere (I was putting in data as a contractor, and Lone Wolf was being... unreasonable and... rude to my 3PP client, so I bailed on their product).

In my previous experience in Realm Works, I could put in Degrees of Horror in about 3 hours or so, maybe 4 if I wanted to get funky fresh. But using FG that same process would take.... longer... A lot longer...

I LOVED the price point for ETU, all those 1-sheets + rules + archetypes! Great deal. But I was hoping to see Degrees of Horror converted or Class Ring, or even the newer 1 sheets.

But nothing in the last few years, so I'm not holding my breath on support/updates for that.

Which makes me cry even harder if they don't convert Savage Rifts. My Degrees of Horror campaign will end in a Rift experience (spoiler, it makes sense with the end of that story), and I was planning on straight up continuing their game into Rifts Earth.

So, maybe it'll get converted?

When was the last SW ruleset released? I know v.4 came out last month for the Ruleset, but a whole PAK file type update.

A year after ETU's release I went back and added all the One Sheets to the bundle.
Savage Rifts for FG is impossible at the moment since the Palladium and PEG agreement doesn't cover electronic products, just books.