RULES ARE MADE TO BE... : PFS and Module runs

[ChadHale]

I want all of you to know, I am a noob to FGII. I am familiar with Pathfinder society. I would like to join a group and learn to play with FG. I have an FG lite lic.
Yet, I need you to know, I am fairly sick of the countless unimaginative "murder-hobo" scenarios. I am also burnt out after two years of local play, of never getting a race boon. So what to do?

Are you all aware of the rule that any GM can run "modules" (*not merely scenarios) without all the usual PFS restrictions (i.e. half of or entire owned books content removed from play, 20 point build, never getting a race boon even if you GM a Convention, level 12 forced retirement) all that goes into the garbage can. Just imagine the possibilities:
You could start play at level 1 with:
a random inheritance (possibly a magic item)
one or more bonus feats granted by the GM,
Even a 30 point build (i.e. 16,15,14,13,12,11, with 2 points to spend or 16,16,16,10,10,10 but no scores lower than 10 prior to racial adjustment)
and any race/class/archetype the GM allows.

GMs can run modules such as:
First level: Crypt of the Everflame, Master of the Fallen Fortress, The Godsmouth Heresy, murder's mark, Dragon's demand, thornkeep, the emerald spire super dungeon,
Third level: Masks of the Living God, The Feast of Ravenmoor, daughters of fury,
4th level: The Midnight Mirror, fangwood keep, plunder and peril
5th level: Carrion Hill, City of Golden Death, tears at bitter manor, down the blighted path
6th level: From Shore to Sea, broken chains, the house on hook street,
7th level: Realm of the Fellnight Queen
8th level: Cult of the Ebon Destroyers, no response from deepmar,
9th level: The Harrowing, doom comes to dustpawn,
10th level: Curse of the Riven Sky
11th level: The Ruby Phoenix Tournament, feast of dust,
12th level wardens of the reborn forge,
13th level: Academy of Secrets
14th level: Tomb of the Iron Medusa
16th level: the moonscar
18th level: The Witchwar Legacy

A few adventure paths can be run "In Full" as well! be that Rise of the runelords, carrion crown, council of thieves, kingmaker, the shattered star, etc. though the chronicle sheets are awarded only for specific content in many cases.

I am sick of their restrictions, their piddling three page scenarios where the benevolent pathfinder society commands you to go assassinate all of the shadow lodge survivors, or to do some dirty work for a soul enslaver in katapesh... roleplaying a Lawful good character in PFS? oh rlly! Or to do the laundry and milk runs for absurdly powerful npcs who could do it alone and nekid, (*oh by the way, they are coming with you, but won't help)... It is just sad that the quality of writing has gone downhill as far as it has at paizo.

So, you guys know that this option exists, right?
Do you want to attain level 20?
Do you really want to role play a hero?
(*or to keep making lame excuses for your 7 int, 10 wis, 7 cha "before racial adjustments" fighter/barbarian/brawler/etc. or heh "I'm not min/maxxing", a 5 str, 10 dex, 10 con, 10 wis, after raicial adjustments halfling sorcerer)

I want to play, but Not idiotic scenarios, and not under bogus restrictions...
Don't you?

[ChadHale]

in which pathfinder scenarios did you actually, "EXPLORE, CO-OPERATE, and REPORT"? because, in my opinion... there aren't many that come close to exploration of anything. just mercenaries looking for gold coin hand-outs...

If you feel the same way, let me know.

[ChadHale]

What would some of you give to have four traits aside from your own, to gain access to four badly needed skills?
Can you balance on that ledge or jump arcoss the creek?
Can you SWIM? Can you climb a wall? Can you be stealthy? Can you perform basic healing? Can you survive the outdoors?
Can you navigate the land? Identify an animal by tracks/spoor? build a shelter, craft crude tools and weapons?

If you grew up the son of a blacksmith, became a fighter and worked your way up as a strong willed, wisecracking warrior to one day become a romantic knight? do you have: craft blacksmith, craft weapon, craft armor, knowledge: engineering, knowledge local, Knowledge history, knowledge nature, knowledge nobility, knowledge nature, perform poetry, perform oratory, perform comedy (jokes), perform dance,

If you were a noble blooded bastidge, or an aristocrat: do you have bluff, diplomacy, intimidate, and sense motive, in concert with craft, knowledge, perform, and profession skills to back those claims up? or are just gonna hope you can take ten everywhere you go?

Real adventurers on real adventures don't get that luxury, many times the DC for any challenge *REQUIRES* maximum skill ranks (or more!)
Have you ever hear something like, "Oh well, you couldn't climb the wall. take 2d6 falling damage and the gelatinous cube engulfs you" or, "you failed that diplomacy check so badly I am going to have the otyugh eat the entire party."

Maybe, just maybe... it is time to play a HERO.

[Malkavian_Andi]

Well, the option to play in "campaign mode" without having to stick to PFS rules only applies to Adventure Paths and 64-page modules, in short, only the stuff where not everything is sanctioned. Many of the modules you mentioned don't fall into that category.

Nobody is forced to play PFS. It's totally okay to play through all these scenarios/modules without using PFS rules. You just don't get PFS credit in that case.

And also, I think the writing has actually improved. While early scenarios sometimes were just a bunch of combat encounters strung together, now they often have several possible routes to success, use unique mechanics, and/or tell a good story, which ties into an interesting main plot. There are also a lot scenarios that are about exploration (cooperation is the PCs' responsibility, and reporting is done off-screen (nobody needs the players to retell what they just played)).

And finally, what you list in your last post can all be done with PFS characters. Some characters can come up with insanely high skill modifiers on the skills that are relevant for their character concept. Of course, some classes don't have that many skill points, but those classes are good at other stuff. If you wat to just add skill points to those, you can surely do that in a home campaign, but in the rulebook, it's that way for balancing reasons.
And talking about your first point, the game started out with not using traits at all, so having two traits to gain a little bonus or even an extra class skill is quite luxurious already.
On that last point, there are surely points where you get falling damage if you fail a skill check, and I know of at least one situation where there's a monster at the bottom.
On the other hand, there's a good reason not to require an insanely high DC from everybody when the result is potentially deadly. The game is about having a good time and experiencing an adventure together, not killing off the party.

[ChadHale]

I am not attacking pathfinder. I am however pointing at some short comings.
20 point build, 2+int skill point classes, skill lists that do not have adventure focused skills (*the bard - all BARDS- can't swim) So are there problems?
(*nod yes with me*)

The "Luxury" of two traits, aren't always used to make a character one wants to play - but to FIX a deeply flawed class so that it can have a hope of surviving an adventure. for example, the occultist. The occultist doesn't have access to acrobatics, climb, stealth, swim: skills which I would consider necessary for delving into dungeons deep. it is a psychic class, that wears heavy armor and shields...
but is going to need bellhops (with crane, pulleys, lots of rope, a boat, etc) to get through.
let us not make lame excuses for a game mechanic that badly needs to be overhauled.
Take ten, "under stress" = NO!
Take ten, with a DC of 15 or higher? NOPE!
Something smells in Denmark.

How many PFS players have had martial types with 7 int, 10 wis, 7 cha? that give them a total of 28 points to buy the remaining 3 attributes with...
And just how are those characters role played? cause I think that such things have been abused, and not actually role played -

...how about you?

[ChadHale]

Well, the option to play in "campaign mode" without having to stick to PFS rules only applies to Adventure Paths and 64-page modules, in short, only the stuff where not everything is sanctioned. Many of the modules you mentioned don't fall into that category.

Nobody is forced to play PFS. It's totally okay to play through all these scenarios/modules without using PFS rules. You just don't get PFS credit in that case.

to the first item here: oh? which ones? the modules I have listed *ALL* have chronicle sheets.

to the second item: how are you not seeing what I am seeing in what you wrote?

So if you are a PFS player, and you play - but you don't get credit. *or you do, but the boon is, "call me later to cast 1 light spell for you"... or hey! you can get a rapier made of mithril, or an armored coat made with adamantine inserts, but it Doesn't change the price any (and either can't ever afford the item or you already could get that item for yourself)...

This is all okay with you? Tell me, when was the last time one could get a race boon? I had played PFS for two years as a player, a DM, and DM'd at conventions. I have NEVER gotten a boon worth a damn!
tell me,
come on...

Tell me all about your catfolk ranger...

[ChadHale]

tell me all about your Dhampir, snake-strike brawler, who focuses on using his fangs...

[ChadHale]

tell me all about your najagi barbarian with a 5 intelligence who uses a wand of enlarge person, and potions of fire breath, named "Godzilla"...

[Malkavian_Andi]

The occultist doesn't have access to acrobatics, climb, stealth, swimThey do. They just don't get the +3 bonus for putting ranks in a class skill. If you want an occultist to be especially good at those skills, use a trait to make it a class skill (which also gives an opportunity to flesh out the character's background, since you obviously want some roleplaying to occur).
Same goes for bards, which you also listed as an example. They are mostly social characters, often entertaining at court or in taverns. Swimming isn't such a focused part of that, but you can include some swimming experience into their background (aka taking a trait) and it does become a class skill.


How many PFS players have had martial types with 7 int, 10 wis, 7 cha? that give them a total of 28 points to buy the remaining 3 attributes with...
And just how are those characters role played? cause I think that such things have been abused, and not actually role played -

...how about you?I personally avoid generating negative ability modifiers, because it does hurt the character, even if that ability score is not their focus. Which brings us back to scenario design theses days. There often are challenges that can't be solved simply by dealing lots of damage or spending standard actions, which wasn't as common in earlier seasons.
In general, your problem here seems to be with min-maxing players who take very low ability scores just for maximizing others, without even planning on roleplaying their low score.
Point-buy in itself is a good system to keep the classes balanced. Those that are more powerful need more ability scores, keeping their overall power in check. And 20 points is a good amount for a medium power campaign.


to the first item here: oh? which ones? the modules I have listed *ALL* have chronicle sheets.I never said they don't. What they do not have is a campaign mode. Campaign mode means they can be played with non-PFS characters while still applying credit to a PFS character. Anything that doesn't have a campaign mode (while being sactioned for PFS, of course) has to be played with PFS characters if you want to receive credit.


to the second item: how are you not seeing what I am seeing in what you wrote?I'm not seeing any problem, because if I want to be part of a game or campaign, I build my character by the rules the GM tells me to use. If I don't agree with those rules, I don't play in their game, but also don't expect to receive anything from them. In the case of PFS, which is a world-wide organized play campaign, the GM setting the rules is campaign leadership.


or you do, but the boon is, "call me later to cast 1 light spell for you"That's the boons, things you get for free in addition to standard rewards. In a non-PFS game, do you expect your GM to hand out something amazingly awesome to every PC during every game session?


Tell me, when was the last time one could get a race boon? Last race boon I received was a grippli, which I got for running at FG con. Next week, I'll receive a ratfolk boon for running at a small local convention I organize PFS for. If you don't get a race boon for running at conventions, don't blame PFS, but rather talk to your local VO. If your conventions don't reach the 15 table mark, maybe you could offer them to help grow your local community. If they do reach the 15 table limit, definitely talk to your local VO because it really isn't that hard to request boon support for a convention.


Tell me all about your catfolk ranger...I don't play rangers that much (almost never), but if I did, I wouldn't neccessarily need a catfolk.

tell me all about your Dhampir, snake-strike brawler, who focuses on using his fangs...Why would I need to use a dhampir for that? (Also, I'm not very fond of playing brawlers. But that's just personal preference.)

tell me all about your najagi barbarian with a 5 intelligence who uses a wand of enlarge person, and potions of fire breath, named "Godzilla"...I have a nagaji bloodrager, which I don't play that much at the moment. (btw, bloodragers are much better at using wands of enlarge person than barbarians.) That character will also not be using wands of enlarge person, or any other means of doing that, because he's a bloodrider, so he will have a mount (enlarging oneself while mounted is a bad idea). That character has Int 8, btw.

[ChadHale]

Sigh. Call me when you guys are going to run something in campaign mode...
because I am not eager to play in a game with less than a Span of 16,15,14,13,12,11 (*Roughly 28 points, before racial adjustments.*)

Using traits to fix class failings is still evidence that somethings are still very wrong. Believe it or not there is a difference in a bard who has to use a trait to gain SWIM as a class skill and a rogue who could choose reactionary for +2 initiative. many times Difficulty classes aren't balanced for anything, sometimes not even maximum ranks FOR class skills... thoughtless penalties really do pile up! be that a 2+int class, a limited class skill list, equipment penalties, and so on.
I put forward the following as evidence: The big difference between the basic rogue and the unchained rogue is that the unchained rogue gets finesse training aka weapon finesse feat as a class ability at first level. in short, the basic Feat taxes and multiple attribute dependency was removed from the unchained rogue.

when things have to be fixed/rebalanced/or even discarded, there is something WRONG.

[ChadHale]

Yeah, you don't need a catfolk to play a ranger...
but if a player WANTS to in pfs, it is possible that they will NEVER be able to.
Hence, a restriction. Are catfolk over powered? no, they are just different.
The restriction against the player who wants to run a catfolk becomes impossible to remove.
The restriction regardless of the intention becomes chaffing.

just like a rogue with a feat tax, or an occultist having to make nothing but untrained skill checks to:
Balance on a narrow ledge, to shuffle along a wall 30 feet so that he doesn't have to walk through sewage.
jump over a 10 ft wide pit.
climb a wet rock wall without a rope.
swim to shore after falling off a pier.
sneak past an orc patrol seated around a campfire.
Make an improvised splint for a broken arm.
find his way back to the frontier fort from the goblin caves.
make sure he doesn't stumble into a natural hazard.
to see if he can build a small fire to stay warm.
this occultist might be able to do some of these things with a dc 15 while under stress- provided he doesn't roll 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14.
NOW THAT'S GAME BALANCE WHOO-HOO!

No, its not. it is STUPID. it is bad game design. being able to "Take ten" is an acknowledgement that a lame duck class, or NPC can not simply perform DC 15, skill checks often enough to be effective for their own day to day tasks! let alone an untrained skill check against DC 10.

I haven't even gotten close to touching on the needed dice rolls for a trained character with a 14 stat, against DC's 20 and HIGHER.

[damned]

Hey ChadHale PFS is not for everyone and many PFS players are very min max focused but that doesnt invalidate PFS or their style of play or mean its the only way to play PFS.
Posting that PFS is stupid and looking for support in the PFS forum is probably not going to find you a lot of like minded souls.
You can play PFS scenarios and not use all the PFS rules - there is no problem with that - but its not PFS any more.

Perhaps if you reposted your thread in the main LFG as something along the lines of:

New Pathfinder Campaign
30point buy
We will be playing a range of PFS scenarios including...

I think you will both find a more receptive audience and a bunch of players who suit what you are looking to run.

[Malkavian_Andi]

Well, there surely are some GMs who don't even allow much outside the Core Rulebook. PFS allows a lot, but it does have its limits on race selection. One reason behind this is of course to encourage players to step up and run games.

You keep mentioning the occultist not being able to perform athletic or survival-related actions, but then the occultist is not really a kind of class that runs around in the wild much. So of course they'll have to rely on their teammates to not get lost. Same goes for a ranger or druid trying to do research in a library.

Also a day to day task (especially for an NPC) is mostl likely DC 5 or 10, so they'd be able to do those with taking 10. Even if you say that performing a craft or profession would be DC 15, they'd be trained in that with a bonus of at least +5.

A trained character with a 14 stat has a skill modifier of +6 at 1st level, so they'd have to roll a 14 or higher. And yes, DC 20 is a tough check at 1st level.

But after all, it looks like you're looking for a system that lets every kind of character be above average on everything, including every skill. That's something that most game systems won't give you (at least not at a starting level). I also doubt that many GMs will agree to 28+ point buy character creation, unless they actually aim at a very high power campaign (but that would require either a home-brew campaign or massive adjustment of pre-written encounters).
That said, I'll stop here now, because at this point, the discussion will most likely mostly consist of repitition.

[ChadHale]

Hey, I'd like to try Pathfinder, and keep track of accomplishments like the society does.
Yet, I don't think the society rules are actually fair to players.

So, I would like to join any Pathfinder campaign with a 28 point build (stipulation: no ability scores less than 10 before racial adjustments) and a bonus feat at first level.

[ChadHale]

You keep mentioning the occultist not being able to perform athletic or survival-related actions, but then the occultist is not really a kind of class that runs around in the wild much. So of course they'll have to rely on their teammates to not get lost. Same goes for a ranger or druid trying to do research in a library.

The occultist class is bent around: archaeological sites, historic lore, items of significance, and magic items. Yet, how such a character will fare on any journey to such a site, or how they are to navigate the challenges of a "dungeon", "maze", "buried ruins", etc. if they are ever to find/discover/acquire such treasures apparently it is going to happen either by numerous improbable accidents, or they are CARRIED by others who actually have the required skills. either of which is pathetic and failed.

[Malkavian_Andi]

Since this is not a repitition of anything I already said: I think you got the tone of the occultist a bit wrong. They're not about historical artifacts but about objects of personal and emotional importance. You don't go into ruins and dungeons to find those. You inherit them, you create them, or you find them in dusty libraries (there are surely other ways, but digging the relics up in the wild is not the primary way).

[ChadHale]

Since this is not a repitition of anything I already said: I think you got the tone of the occultist a bit wrong. They're not about historical artifacts but about objects of personal and emotional importance. You don't go into ruins and dungeons to find those. You inherit them, you create them, or you find them in dusty libraries (there are surely other ways, but digging the relics up in the wild is not the primary way).
How can you not see what you wrote here, and how wrong it is?

This is excuseology 101. re-inventing word meanings and shifting definitions when it suits you. QUIT. IT. NOW. You have already demonstrated that you are only your opinion. I will not Mince words or play semantic games with you. The very idea of Nuance eludes you. If you are going to speak with any precision or veracity, the meaning of a word must be an absolute concrete thing. Not a feeling, not an opinion, and not mob-mind group think.

because when bill Clinton said, "that depends on what your definition of is is" this was not because he is so smart and clever. no, it was an effort to deflect away from the truth. an effort to spin off into UNREALITY, by twisting language into a noose. So do not do that. Grab your ears and pull firmly until you hear the pop sound and can see.

[ChadHale]

REFINED REQUEST: I would like to join a pathfinder game run outside the restrictions of Pathfinder society, in campaign mode. Yet one that will award chronicle sheets to track progress, and to potentially be applied to a different pathfinder society character in the future. I am tired of the usual restrictions and would like to do things differently. If this sounds like something you want to do, call me. I would gladly join such a game.

[LindseyFan]

You might want to refine your tone a bit, it will go a long way towards getting some group invites. I say this with the most nicest feelings towards you as I can, because we all want to enjoy games, and I hope you are able to find one that works for you too.

[Fazakerley]

Hey ChadHale, having followed your thread on LFG I'm glad you've sorted out your account and are giving FG a go. It's a great system with a fantastic community - I hope you find a game to your liking soon.

[Ken L]

PFS is PFS, if you don't like PFS then run normal pathfinder.

PFS isn't pathfinder, it's a more rigid pathfinder geared for powergamers in most cases; a subset of the base game. There's nothing stopping you from running normal pathfinder so I find this topic to be a bit strange. It's like going to Taco Bell and saying they should sell something other than tacos, and asking everyone eatting their tacos if they're tired of the taste and to make them aware that pizza hut, burger king, and KFC exist. "Did you know that.. there are other fast food restaurants that are not limited to tacos?"

I haven't myself done PFS in awhile, but I let people who like tacos eat their tacos. It's not for lack of knowledge that normal PF and geared modules still exist.

[ChadHale]

I would like to try a pathfinder game, which will provide a chronicle for future use in making a pathfinder society character. Preferably outside of the standard restrictions of the society via a campaign mode module or adventure path. if you are capable of running such an event, please invite me.

[longshaden]

I would like to try a pathfinder game, which will provide a chronicle for future use in making a pathfinder society character. Preferably outside of the standard restrictions of the society via a campaign mode module or adventure path. if you are capable of running such an event, please invite me.

Its quite simple, if you want PFS credit, you have to play by PFS rules. If you read the Pathfinder Society Guide (https://paizo.com/products/btpy84k4) you would know that these rules are the way they are to ensure a level of consistency across all PFS games globally. They are not perfect, but they ensure all players are on the same level, and to prevent some players from dominating the game due to having extremely high stats. To not follow the rules in a system designed for organized play is called cheating.

If that's not something you want, (and you've already said it isn't), then join or run homebrew Pathfinder, and do it NOT in the Pathfinder Society Channel. You already have that option, and you can make your games as unbalanced as you want. But to insist that PFS change to appease you is selfish and unreasonable.

As it stands now though, you are just a bully, bullying around those who disagree with you. You will find this community is very welcoming and patient, in fact, PFS rules require a safe, inclusive environment where players treat each other with respect. However, also per PFS rules:

"Dysfunctional or uncooperative play will not be
tolerated. Behaving in a hateful or disruptive fashion
simply because “It’s what your character would do” means
you’ve probably lost sight of the purpose of organized
play and may be asked to amend your behavior or leave
the table. Extreme or repetitive cases of inappropriate
behavior will be resolved by asking the offender to leave
the table or venue."

[ChadHale]

Its quite simple, if you want PFS credit, you have to play by PFS rules. If you read the Pathfinder Society Guide (https://paizo.com/products/btpy84k4) you would know that these rules are the way they are to ensure a level of consistency across all PFS games globally. They are not perfect, but they ensure all players are on the same level, and to prevent some players from dominating the game due to having extremely high stats. To not follow the rules in a system designed for organized play is called cheating.

If that's not something you want, (and you've already said it isn't), then join or run homebrew Pathfinder, and do it NOT in the Pathfinder Society Channel. You already have that option, and you can make your games as unbalanced as you want. But to insist that PFS change to appease you is selfish and unreasonable.

As it stands now though, you are just a bully, bullying around those who disagree with you. You will find this community is very welcoming and patient, in fact, PFS rules require a safe, inclusive environment where players treat each other with respect. However, also per PFS rules:

"Dysfunctional or uncooperative play will not be
tolerated. Behaving in a hateful or disruptive fashion
simply because “It’s what your character would do” means
you’ve probably lost sight of the purpose of organized
play and may be asked to amend your behavior or leave
the table. Extreme or repetitive cases of inappropriate
behavior will be resolved by asking the offender to leave
the table or venue."

Me? a bully? No.
are you trying to bully me? oh yes.
Campaign mode is a part of PFS.
Allowing a campaign mode to be run with 28 points, or even 30 points (with a bonus feat no less!) to build a character is in no way Cheating - IT IS ALLOWED specifically in the rules.
Putting forward an array, such as 16,15,14,13,12,11 (+2 remaining) as I have, or even the 16,16,16,10,10,10 letting all of the players assign them as they wish,... is not being a bully nor cheating nor Dominating at the table. Even when using a 14,14,14,14,14,14 spread (aka. a 30 point build) isn't Overwhelming anything.
The rules are very much not perfect, that is why I would like to play in campaign mode.
otherwise, the 20 point spread boils down to 6into20= 3 remainder 2 this would be a spread of 14, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13 and can be 15 (7pnts) 14 (5pnts) 14 (5 pnts) 13 (3 pnts) 10, and 10. the difference between us isn't all that great as you may think.

The question it seems; is if you would consider a human zen archer monk and a v'nilla fighter to be a balanced equivalent.
The difference is that I just want my role playing to SUCK less and be more win. Hmm, winning. now wouldn't that be a REFRESHING change?

hmm? well?

[ChadHale]

hey, longshaden...

"you’ve probably lost sight of the purpose of organized
play and may be asked to amend your behavior or leave
the table. Extreme or repetitive cases of inappropriate
behavior will be resolved by asking the offender to leave
the table or venue."

Ahem, you are being utterly inappropriate, so LEAVE.
I am being nice about this. you are clearly violating the PFS rules.

[dulux-oz]

Alright, let's keep it civil, or I'll shut down the thread.

And before ANYONE says ANYTHING about bias on my or any other Moderator's part - DON'T! This is aimed at everyone in general and at no-one in particular.

This Community prides itself of its inclusiveness and its tolerance - so let's keep it that way, shall we, and remember that we're all here to have fun and enjoy our mutual hobby, and that's there's room for a lot of diversity under that umbrella.