Rogues using cunning action to hide after attacking

[Baron28]

I have a player who's playing a rogue. His typical turn goes like this:

Round 1:

1. Action - shoots arrow at target and rolls normal damage dice
2. Move - moves out of visual range of the target
3. Bonus Action - Cunning action to Hide. His stealth roll 99.9% of the time is higher than the passive perception of the target.

Round 2:

1. Action - shoots arrow at target at advantage since hidden from previous round. On a hit, rolls normal and sneak attack damage dice.
2. Move - if necessary
3. Bonus Action - Cunning action to Hide. His stealth roll 99.9% of the time is higher than the passive perception of the target.

I get that the player wants to take advantage of the sneak attack damage dice as much as possible, but is it being abused given the scenario described above? Should I allow him to continue to hide after firing from the same relative position round after round?

[Zacchaeus]

Nothing wrong with what he is doing, except that he should be trying to get sneak attack every turn :)

Remember that once combat begins you wouldn't be using passive perception for the check since the beastie knows that the PC is there so it would be actively seeking the PC out. Therefore you would switch to opposed rolls (PCs sneak vs beasties actual perception check). You might feel also that in such circumstances the PC should be making the roll with disadvantage or that the beastie should have advantage depending on the circumstances.

Also have more fights in open spaces where there's nothing to hide behind.

[JohnD]

Those Stealth rolls should be in the Tower.

Also, second the concept of disadvantage or advantage given victim knows there's a delta bravo around sniping, especially if he's basically just popping out of the same location every time.

[ddavison]

Enemies can also ready an attack against the rogue for after he attacks but before he re-hides if they also have a ranged attack or spell. It doesn't even matter if the rogue is attacking a different NPC -- which is likely to be dead after the sneak attack.

The rogue can also get sneak attack whenever any ally is next to the enemy. He doesn't even have to be hidden. The bonus with being hidden is that he is also getting advantage on the attack roll when attacking a target that doesn't know the rogue is there.

[LordEntrails]

Enemies can also ready an attack against the rogue for after he attacks but before he re-hides if they also have a ranged attack or spell. It doesn't even matter if the rogue is attacking a different NPC -- which is likely to be dead after the sneak attack....

This is what I do. After one or two of their friends are killed by sniper fire, everyone else is simple waiting for the rogue to re-appear, then everyone fires are him as an interrupt before he gets off his attack.

[Baron28]

Thanks for the feedback.

The stealth rolls opposed by perception are done in the tower.

I like the idea of imposing a graded scale of +2 or -2, then advantage or disadvantage on the opposed rolls.

I like the idea of the collective enemy using their action to ready for when the rogue attempts to snipe.

Side topic, I had fun running a cloud giant the other night. I had him cast fly on himself while hurling rocks while off the ground. Knocked a sorcerer out who ended his turn in an open danger area after blasting the cloud giant with a cone of cold.

[Dracius]

3. Bonus Action - Cunning action to Hide. His stealth roll 99.9% of the time is higher than the passive perception of the target.

You're doing this part wrong. When he hides during combat, it's supposed to be contested by an active perception check of all the enemies nearby:


H i d i n g
When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check’s total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence.
You can’t hide from a creature that can see you, and if you make noise (such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase), you give away your position. An invisible creature can’t be seen, so it can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, however, and it still has to stay quiet.
In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the Dungeon Master might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack before you are seen.

That being said, there are a couple traps to be aware of that Rogue players and DM's often fall into regarding sneak attacks:

Rogues are balanced around getting sneak attack damage on most rounds.
Having advantage isn't the only way to get sneak attack damage.


As a DM you need to be aware of the first point, but as a player he needs to be aware that while rogues are expected to get frequent sneak attack damage, they're not expected to be getting advantage on every single attack roll. The easiest requirement for getting sneak attacks is simply that the enemy be near one of your allies (or something hostile to it in the case of neutral NPC's). I mostly blame the name of the ability, since "Sneak Attack" makes most players think they have to be hidden in order to receive it. It's also like everyone stops reading right before this sentence:


You don’t need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isn’t incapacitated, and you don’t have disadvantage on the attack roll.

I require poptarting players (ones that shoot/hide/shoot) to at least change locations before each shot to get the benefit of unseen attackers. This prevents that ever so cheesy scenario of a halfling rogue trying to hide and shoot from behind the same player or barrel. Likewise you can toss in a couple ranged NPC's and have them ready an attack action for when the rogue appears or throw in a Drow and have them Faerie Fire him.

[damned]

You're doing this part wrong. When he hides during combat, it's supposed to be contested by an active perception check of all the enemies nearby:


H i d i n g
When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check’s total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence.

Enemies that are engaged in combat with another actor are unlikely to be actively searching for your rogue.
Thats my reading of it anyways :)

[LordEntrails]

I like Dracius ruling;

I require poptarting players (ones that shoot/hide/shoot) to at least change locations before each shot to get the benefit of unseen attackers.

I guess if I were to formalize it, I would probably allow the same location to be used twice, but after that you would need to be going to new places. And rotating between the same two or three places would get predictable pretty quickly.

Again though,I'm lucky enough that my players have a similar sense of reason as I do and they don't try to manipulate the rules for things like this.

[Zacchaeus]

I don't think necessarily that there's a manipulation or exploitation of the rules here. I think it's reasonable for a rogue like character to pop in and out of cover. Having said that I also believe that a rogue is better as a two handed melee fighter type class rather than as a ranged character. So I think if a rogue is using the hide and shoot type tactic they're not contributing as much to the proceedings as they might otherwise be.

[Callum]

1. Action - shoots arrow at target at advantage since hidden from previous round. On a hit, rolls normal and sneak attack damage dice.

Apologies for the thread necromancy, but I've just started to DM a 5E game with a rogue in, and I'm trying to get my head around how rogues get their sneak attack damage. It's the step above that bothers me - how is the rogue able to shoot an arrow at the target without moving first, when they had to move completely out of sight of that target in order to be able to hide in the first place?

[Zacchaeus]

If the rogue starts the combat hidden then they would get their sneak attack. If the creatures then fail (and this is all of the creatures) a perception check against the rogues stealth check then the rogue would remain hidden. If the rogue moves they'd make another stealth check and again the NPCs would need to all fail their perception check for the rogue to remain hidden.

In most cases rogues get their sneak attack damage from other factors rather than being hidden. Generally rogues are front line fighters and so get their sneak attack by standing beside an ally. If your rogue is ranged however they are unlikely to get sneak attack very often unless the NPCs have rubbish perception.

Also of course there must be something for the rogue to hide behind. In a big empty room there isn't going to be much to hide behind unless they are Halflings and can hide behind a bigger ally.

[Callum]

Thanks, Zacchaeus! So, are you saying that the rogue would have to move to take their shot, and they'd need to succeed at an opposed stealth check in order to get the sneak attack damage?

[Zacchaeus]

No, they don't have to move. Whether or not they move after they have taken their first shot from hiding (assuming they successfully hide in the first place) they need to win the contested roll to remain in hiding. So it plays something like:

1. Party hears or sees a group of enemies up ahead.
2. Rogue makes a stealth check which beats the passive perception check of all the NPCs
3. Rogue then has advantage on their first shot and if they hit gets sneak attack damage
4. Rogue now makes stealth check to remain hidden
5. NPCs are now aware of the rogue so are now making active perception checks. The rogue can remain in place or move it doesn't matter.
6. If any one of the NPCs beats the rogues stealth check then the rogue is no longer hidden and therefore does not get advantage on their next shot and so don't get sneak attack

[lostsanityreturned]

Remember that even if they stealth the person they are hiding from can see that they keep going behind that corner... as long as LoS is nolonger broken that player is seen and drops out of stealth.

Stealth isn't invisibility (generally)

That said, if they are a ranger/rogue with the deepstalker archetype and it is darkness... or they have greater invis... then they are fine :p

[GavinRuneblade]

Remember that even if they stealth the person they are hiding from can see that they keep going behind that corner... as long as LoS is nolonger broken that player is seen and drops out of stealth.

Stealth isn't invisibility (generally)

That said, if they are a ranger/rogue with the deepstalker archetype and it is darkness... or they have greater invis... then they are fine :p

Which brings up another way to handle the rogue who pops in and out: have an NPC move where they have line of sight and the PC cannot hide there anymore.

[DwightLee]

What he is doing is correct for his Class, not an exploitation, it is what his character is able to do.

From a Role-Playing perspective I understand your complaint, but realize if characters have an ability to do something within the rules, they will tend to do it.

The Rogue in my game has a tendency to do what his character would do, not just what actions the rules will allow, so this situation comes up less often. That is why I look for people that will actually Role-Play game and not treat it as a computer combat game. When I advertise for players, I am not looking for rules-lawyers, and tend to select older people ( the youngest person in my current homebrew campaign is in his early 30's ).

That said, I do expect my Rogue player to pop in and out of cover, he even uses the ability to step behind someone larger than himself and hide with his ability to do that too.

Remember that it is not you against the players, it is you telling a cooperative story with the players, at least that is the way I DM

[Callum]

Thanks, everyone, for your input. In fact, I'm trying to help the person who's playing the rogue, as they are new to D&D, and aren't sure how to create situations where they get sneak attack damage. But I can't explain it if I don't understand it myself, and I still don't understand it!

Let's say the rogue is fighting some foes in a corridor. The rogue shoots an arrow, then moves around a corner. Now the rogue can't see the foes, and vice versa, so the rogue can hide. On the rogue's next turn, the rogue has to move back round the corner in order to take another shot at the foes, right?

[Zacchaeus]

Yes. The rogue needs to be able to see the target in order to hit it.

[GavinRuneblade]

Yes. The rogue needs to be able to see the target in order to hit it.

Not exactly true. Or rather, only true in this case by a technicality.

Because in this case it is a wall causing the blocked line of sight the actual issue is cover not visibility, but as the rogue probably can't see through the wall the difference is moot. The rogue needs to advance to the point where the target has 3/4 cover or less to be able to shoot at them. Rule reference for cover here (https://5thsrd.org/combat/cover/). In this case the attack is -5 to hit so the rogue preferably would move farther forward than that.

In general you can shoot at invisible targets, hidden targets, or those inside darkness that you cannot see. Rule reference for unseen targets here (https://5thsrd.org/combat/making_an_attack/). In these cases you have disadvantage on the attack but you are always allowed to try to shoot at someone you cannot see. If the target in the darkness is blinded by it (for example because you are the ally of someone who is using a magical darkness hexblade build or whatnot) then the blindness also grants you advantage to hit that target therefore they cancel out and your attack is resolved normally.

Unlike ranged attacks many spells require the caster see the target, and in those cases visibility does prevent the spell from being cast at all. When the spell does not specifically require the caster to see the target it follows the rule of "clear line of sight to the target" referenced here (https://5thsrd.org/spellcasting/casting_a_spell/). This again would require 3/4 cover or less as if an attack, but no penalty is applied to the spell unlike the ranged attack. This is an example of "specific trumps general" in determining which rule applies.

/end rules lawyering