Reference Manual - Advantages Over Basic Text Module? [Archive]

leozelig

February 2nd, 2017, 11:11

What are the advantages of a reference manual over plain old reference text for library modules? I have the DCC RPG rulebook in the basic format, but I do like the search feature for the reference manual. Otherwise, it seems like just a different layout with chapters and subchapters.

damned

February 2nd, 2017, 11:35

It is a much easier format for reading and with the new refblock types you can make the pages very readable and very easy on the eye.

Trenloe

February 2nd, 2017, 17:43

It's very nice to read - more like a book and can look much more visually pleasing with inline images etc..

The main gotcha is that it is completely read-only and has to be built outside of FG. You can't modify any of the data, even locally to a campaign (like you can for normal module records).

vodokar

February 2nd, 2017, 17:47

A picture is sometimes worth a thousand words:

Talyn

February 2nd, 2017, 18:21

Readability is the main thing. Plopping everything into a gazillion little Story windows in the Library? Making me open and close all those windows and read on a narrow page? Nah. I'll just get the PDF and alt-tab back and forth before I do that ever again. But that's me.

vodokar

February 2nd, 2017, 18:34

I totally agree, which is why I didn't do that.

There are only two library pages in my module: Story (which opens the story window, which has everything in story mode also, in case the person prefers that) and Villains of the Undercity (which opens the reference manual mode that you saw in the screen shot, which is designed to look very similar to how the original pdf was laid out).

As you can see, optionally, if you open up your window a little longer, you can read the entire page at one time, just like a pdf. Navigation is easy, because no section is longer than about 4 pages, so it's easy to jump around and find what you need.

It also has everything linked on the map with pins, as well.

I'm hoping this standard catches on, because it is what I, personally, with my old eyes, would like to buy. But, it isn't a format for a lazy designer. It takes a considerable more time laying out than just dumping a bunch of copy-paste narrow single column straight text into a gazillion story windows in the library. Question is, people doing that, are you just trying to make a quick buck or actually satisfy customers with something useful.

Bidmaron

February 3rd, 2017, 13:27

vodokar, I think the lack of editing could be a real problem for a lot of folks. I rarely run a module without making tweaks. I take it for granted that Trenloe knows what he's talking about when he says you cannot edit it.... (I haven't tried)

Talyn

February 3rd, 2017, 13:53

He knows exactly what he's talking about. Reference Manuals are read-only. You can't even highlight text to copy, much less change. Which is fine since we're held to replicating copyrighted and licensed text as closely to the original as possible (with some minor adjustments allowed for the change of medium). I think I'm the only one (?) who's been putting the playable Story bits of an adventure in the reference manuals as well as the reference bits. The only other person I've seen (so far) use a reference manual for adventure DLC only had the reference bits in there. It's too new a thing yet to have any feedback on how GMs like actually running an adventure via reference manual vs. the trusty ol' Story windows (which are editable).

Bidmaron

February 3rd, 2017, 13:57

I guess I'm in the "if I wanted a PDF I'd use a PDF mode" of thinking on this. That is, if the great presentation means you can't tailor, then no thank you. I just hope the store discriminates which are reference-only so we don't have to find out after having bought the material.

Doswelk

February 3rd, 2017, 13:57

To my mind (such as it is)

Rulebooks should be done is in the nice new reference manual format (got to learn how to do that now), but adventures should use the story/npc/images format.

I quite often tweak adventures but if I want to change the rulebook I make my own library entry and put my house rules in that.

Bidmaron

February 3rd, 2017, 13:59

Well, I'd have to disagree with that, too. For example, if a Player's Manual was reference manual, and you wanted to modify the Perception skill to clarify a house rule, you couldn't even cut-and-paste to take care of the other 99%. Once there are more of these out there, the hue-and-cry will be deafening. And when that happens, I am certain SW will come up with a compromise that gets us where I at least will want to be....

Talyn

February 3rd, 2017, 14:08

I'm just the opposite. Almost all the older DLC (before reference manuals were a thing) are dozens and dozens of Library pages. Savage Worlds is a particular offender since there are so many settings, therefore the majority is reference text. I am absolutely not going to read all those teeny little windows, click all the links, close the window and open the next one, etc. ad infinitum.

I'm ok-ish with the Story windows for adventures, although organization continues to be an issue. I have several where I couldn't figure out where to even begin the adventure, what's the next step, etc. I had to go buy the PDF just to figure out what's what. And even now that I'm doing conversions, trying to organize the Story section has often been a bit of work to get it set up logically for the GM.

Myrdin Potter

February 3rd, 2017, 15:05

I like the reference manual format for rules and a little bit for settings books where there is a bunch of information to read where the format helps with the reading. When running an adventure, I tend to like pins on a map and the story/image/encounter/parcel format works well for me.

I agree that it does look nicer to be closer to the source material in look, but other than aesthetics, it does not always add anything more.

Zacchaeus

February 3rd, 2017, 15:50

The philosophy (as far as I understand it) is that if you are developing a reference manual then you do it as such whereas an adventure will always be done as story entries so that DMs have the ability to amend such entries if they desire. Locking an adventure module into a non editable reference is not, I think, what the general user would demand. There will always, of course, be exceptions.

Talyn

February 3rd, 2017, 15:58

Yep, that's why (so far) I've been doing both. I believe in having options and I try to build my stuff the way I'd want them myself and hopefully the way another GM will be able to use them the way she wants them. I'd rather do my Prep Work in a reference manual because it's waaaay easier to actually read and I can organize it exactly how the published adventure is, no creating a numerical sequence to force the Story list to sort. Then for running it, now I'm in the Story and Map windows bringing up encounters and I can edit things if necessary.

I would never put the playable bits in reference manual only and not have anything in the Story window...

Zacchaeus

February 3rd, 2017, 16:12

So, Talyn, if I'm understanding you correctly you duplicate the adventure as both a story and a reference manual? I've thought about this from time to time since it would mean that the adventure could be replicated exactly as it is in the paper version. Thus graphics could be embedded and the layout could be done in a more readable form. There was some discussion about adding the ability for embedding graphics in story entries (as well as other resources) but there are considerable problems that would need to be overcome for that to happen, and, since story entries are editable there would inevitably be all sorts of user issues with deleting stuff etc etc.
I'm not wholly sold on the idea, especially for a big module like say Storm Kings Thunder. That took me over 250 hours to do and I'm not sure I'd want more hours to create what would essentially be two modules. It might be something I'd look at experimenting with a smaller adventure though, just to see what would be involved.

Talyn

February 3rd, 2017, 16:20

Yes, that's what I do. But I haven't done a massive campaign like SKT either. Like you, I might think twice about that. I mean, the text is copy/paste-able but you're adding to the filesize and the database size. I try to keep those in mind with my work, too. I've asked JPG about the ability to "import" data from one source to another so I wouldn't have to actually duplicate the text, but that might have to wait til the Unity work is done and they have more time to breathe. Right now there's only a few (two off the top of my head) tags that let you import data.

I've been going back and forth on my U1 remaster if I want to put the full playable part in the reference manual like I usually do, or do like you did with your Legendary Beginnings and just have only the GM Prep content in the reference manual.

Zacchaeus

February 3rd, 2017, 16:31

Yes, the Legendary Beginnings modules begged for the back end stuff to go in a ref manual. Some parts of something like SKT could also be put in there, like the introductory setting and possibly the whole of chapter 3. However there'll still be DMs who'll want that in a place where they can edit, so it would still need to be in the story bit too. I'm not sure how much actual extra resources it would take since the images (which are the biggest slice of the size) can be used either as embeds or as linked images; so you only need one image. It would however, as you say, increase size.

Talyn

February 3rd, 2017, 16:36

Yeah, so far I'm putting ONLY the playable bits into the Story window, plus a starter (Adventure Name) page with a bunch of links so that the new navigation buttons work as intended. All the background info and all other GM Prep is in reference manual. Like someone else mentioned, I figure if a GM is homebrewing or modifying that much he can make his own Library page with any changes.

Talyn

February 3rd, 2017, 17:16

Trenloe

February 3rd, 2017, 17:21

VINDICATION!!! (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?36519-quot-Reading-quot-a-module-as-DM) :p Here's another guy who hates reading the adventure purely in Story pages, all the clicking and opening/closing windows...
I don't think that thread provides much vindication, maybe only a little... ;) "I don't like reading on the pc in general..." They specifically don't want to read on the computer full stop - they are asking if they can print the entries onto dead trees!

damned

February 3rd, 2017, 21:25

There is little doubt that for a majority of people the reference manual is easier to read. The loss of editing ability is the big downside. At the pace that FG continues to evolve though... it may not be far away that we have editable reference manuals or improved formatting options in stories...

leozelig

February 3rd, 2017, 23:54

kalmarjan

February 4th, 2017, 07:10

Have to jump in here... If I want to get started on making reference manuals, what do I need to know? Is it all made XML side? For the inline images, can I start reading somewhere how to do this?

damned

February 4th, 2017, 09:22

Suggest you look at Ikaels tool if you have the Savage Worlds ruleset.

Nickademus

February 4th, 2017, 15:19

There are a couple ways to make it. The default right now is to work in the raw xml using this syntax (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/wiki/index.php/Reference_Manuals). Other ways may be easier for you.

kalmarjan

February 4th, 2017, 15:36

Another silly question...I'm not at the computer right now...but how can we see the format for the 5E SRD?

Nickademus

February 4th, 2017, 16:15

By working at Smiteworks or WotC. It's encrypted.

Bidmaron

February 5th, 2017, 06:19

Ikael's tool is the way to go imo.

leozelig

February 5th, 2017, 12:22

The Unearthed Arcana reference book (https://www.dmsguild.com/product/200210/Unearthed-Arcana-FG-Module?term=unearthed+arcana&test_epoch=0) from the DM's Guild helped me figure out the basic layout, but I was not aware of Ikael's tool.

kalmarjan

February 5th, 2017, 12:30

Ikael's tool is the way to go imo.

Can we use the tool to make reference material for other rulesets?

Zacchaeus

February 5th, 2017, 13:22

I think you can, yes. With some modification to the XML.

damned

February 5th, 2017, 14:00

Can we use the tool to make reference material for other rulesets?

You will need Savage Worlds ruleset to be able to use it in the first place. You will need to add/edit the ruleset tags of the finished file to be able to use it with other rulesets.

Ikael

February 5th, 2017, 14:06

Can we use the tool to make reference material for other rulesets?

You can use the tool to create reference manuals which will work in any CoreRPG ruleset. But like mentioned the tool is available only for SavageWorlds ruleset. When you export your creation you can just remove the ruleset dependency from definition.xml and it will work in any CoreRPG ruleset

Myrdin Potter

February 5th, 2017, 22:24

I wish that the corerpg material was available for reference manual creation only. The last update opened quite a few other items that needed outside tools before, it would be nice if reference manuals were incorporated into the program as well.

I do have the Savage Worlds ruleset, but trying to figure out how to incorporate all the 5e campaign items as well.

Nickademus

February 6th, 2017, 00:53

I'm sure in time it will.

Talyn

February 6th, 2017, 01:26

So you're saying we need to setup a GoFundMe for brand-new dad Ikael to make his content importer work on all CoreRPG rulesets instead of selfishly hogging the Savage Worlds spotlight? :p

Nickademus

February 6th, 2017, 02:49

I think it already does. We need to convince SW to make a built-in FG reference module creator and exporter.

kalmarjan

February 6th, 2017, 07:53

You can use the tool to create reference manuals which will work in any CoreRPG ruleset. But like mentioned the tool is available only for SavageWorlds ruleset. When you export your creation you can just remove the ruleset dependency from definition.xml and it will work in any CoreRPG ruleset

I do have the SW ruleset (I'm the guy who created the graphics for it ;)) so if I'm understanding this right...I can make the reference material then just switch out the ruleset tag in definition.xml?

Ikael

February 6th, 2017, 08:58

I do have the SW ruleset (I'm the guy who created the graphics for it ;)) so if I'm understanding this right...I can make the reference material then just switch out the ruleset tag in definition.xml?

Yes, that would do it. Me and Doswelk are planning to have tutorial session today how to use the tool. Kevin might make video of it laterwards

kalmarjan

February 6th, 2017, 09:33

What time will that session be? If I can swing it I'd love to attend, if it wouldn't be imposing. (I'm GMT-5)

BTW Doswelk...it's been a long time ;)

Ikael

February 6th, 2017, 09:58

What time will that session be? If I can swing it I'd love to attend, if it wouldn't be imposing. (I'm GMT-5)

BTW Doswelk...it's been a long time ;)

Sometime between 1700 - 2100 GMT+2. We will be lingering in FG Discord server during that time

Bidmaron

February 6th, 2017, 12:51

I hope he makes video. Wouldn't mind seeing what I might do better

kalmarjan

February 6th, 2017, 13:16

Sometime between 1700 - 2100 GMT+2. We will be lingering in FG Discord server during that time
Ah well I think I won't be able to make that...but I would love to see a video!

Topdecker

February 8th, 2017, 18:57

Where is Ikael's tool posted at? (This is asked after quite a bit of searching.)

Ikael

February 8th, 2017, 19:06

Where is Ikael's tool posted at? (This is asked after quite a bit of searching.)

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?19202-Savage-Worlds-Enhancement-Extensions
it's part of SW Enhanced Library

Doswelk

March 29th, 2017, 10:26

I still hate to have to admit this but I have managed to forget most of what Ikea showed me :(

But to be honest I am giving up with reference manuals they are too fiddly and they may look pretty, but having to have a single page of text for 20-30 locations as I cannot subdivide below three levels is too limiting.

As it stands I am abandoning my conversion of the Hellfrost Atlas to FGII IF it has to be in reference manual format.

I'll finish converting the Hellfrost adventures (no need for reference manuals) and leave it at that.

If someone creates the ability to add further sub-levels I may look again at converting it, but for now it is too cumbersome.

Talyn

March 29th, 2017, 12:44

It's not difficult at all, there's just a couple things to kinda wrap your head around a time or few til the lightbulb finally goes off in your head and it clicks.

If you pop into Discord and I'm around, ping me and I'll help out with the XML aspect. I don't use Ikael's Content Importer so I can't help with that.

Trenloe

March 29th, 2017, 15:21

I still hate to have to admit this but I have managed to forget most of what Ikea showed me :(
That's your mistake right there!

;-)

Ikael

March 29th, 2017, 15:25

Don't listen Ikea, they just sell you poor stuff.

We could on the other hand have another tutorial session specifically about building reference manuals.

I still hate to have to admit this but I have managed to forget most of what Ikea showed me :(

But to be honest I am giving up with reference manuals they are too fiddly and they may look pretty, but having to have a single page of text for 20-30 locations as I cannot subdivide below three levels is too limiting.

As it stands I am abandoning my conversion of the Hellfrost Atlas to FGII IF it has to be in reference manual format.

I'll finish converting the Hellfrost adventures (no need for reference manuals) and leave it at that.

If someone creates the ability to add further sub-levels I may look again at converting it, but for now it is too cumbersome.

Talyn

March 29th, 2017, 15:32

...abandoning my conversion of the Hellfrost Atlas to FGII

Also, we apparently need to find some plutonium for your Delorean so your flux capacitor will bring you back to 2017...

FGII? :p

Doswelk

March 29th, 2017, 18:20

Also, we apparently need to find some plutonium for your Delorean so your flux capacitor will bring you back to 2017...

FGII? :p

Don't listen Ikea, they just sell you poor stuff.

We could on the other hand have another tutorial session specifically about building reference manuals.

Look it's been a long day... :P

Maasq

March 29th, 2017, 19:17

OK, I have a question about reference manuals. I've not done much yet in FG, so I might just be showing my childish niaivety (I remain a child until I hit 50 next week - then my humour reaches adolescent level).

Word saves documents in XML, doesn't it? I use Word to create my stuff, then save it as a PDF. Any way to use the saved output as the source XML for a reference manual? Or even as the start point? I liked the look of that linked manual page. I quite like the idea of offering my finished adventure as PDF, FG module and also FG ref manual, but only if it isn't too awful a process :)

Final question - if I offer both PDF and FG module in a single package - say through DMG, does that pretty much negate the need for a reference manual?

Cheers
Maasq

Talyn

March 29th, 2017, 20:14

No. No no no no no. Stay away from Word XML. Fantasy Grounds has its own specific XML data structure.

It's an "awful" process just learning the ins and outs of things. Or it was for me, but now I've done so many I can whip right through it pretty quick, and I hand-code everything I do in Notepad++.

Providing a PDF is cool and all so people can take it with them. I like reading my RPG PDFs at work, for example. Since you specifically mentioned an Adventure, what I (and others) have been doing is putting only the credits, OGL (if there is one) and all the Introduction / GM Prep content in the reference manual. All the actual playable bits of the adventure goes in Story like normal.

Maasq

March 29th, 2017, 21:27

OK. That's a pity. I just smelled a 'type once, write many' opportunity there!
Thanks, Talyn.

LordEntrails

March 29th, 2017, 21:55

No. *G*

The style/definition of FG and Word XML files are actually very different. I've been working on the side with kp9911 to be able to take FG XML and convert to Word XML using what are called DTD files. Theoretically, it's not too different, but in practical purposes, there are some major limitations/issues.

For instance, the order that items are entered in FG is often different from what you want in a PDF. Plus there are basic structural differences in the type of info. Right now I'm still using cut & paste to transfer info between them. Maybe by the end of the year we will have something more useful.