Extracting posions from an animal

[Ardem]

We playing FRP however any Rolemaster version should not matter after the methodology.

A player wishes to extract poisons from poisonous monsters he has just killed. What would you determine the process, so far I come up with.

- General/ Fauna Lore check to determine if the character believes it is a poisonous creature and where the poison comes from.

- This is where I am stuck What skill to extract the poison (???)

- Prepare Poison to make it an usual poison

[Dark Mullisha]

Hi Ardem,

You could milk a dead creature if the PC cam massage the poison sack, but you need to know where this might be on the creature. If the PC is doing this on the fly then I would do a hard or worse depending on the creature Fauna static roll, if the PC wants to learn to do this all the time then easy animal handling, but where do you learn to extract poison from a chimera?

[Ardem]

I am struggling to persuade an char that, this is not easy method to do this to every poisonous creatures, that they may not even know much about. they said that he would scrap off salvia from a diseased mouth that it could be then applied to his sword and used. It a very hard argument to be made he cannot do this. I guess the only thing is bacteria lifecycle I guess. I am sure he just making life for the GM hard, as he always looking for the obscure. LOL.

[seycyrus]

In real life, venoms degrade quite quickly due to exposure to air, temperature etc.

[JohnD]

I am struggling to persuade an char that, this is not easy method to do this to every poisonous creatures, that they may not even know much about. they said that he would scrap off salvia from a diseased mouth that it could be then applied to his sword and used. It a very hard argument to be made he cannot do this. I guess the only thing is bacteria lifecycle I guess. I am sure he just making life for the GM hard, as he always looking for the obscure. LOL.

Well it's not a MMO. In a medieval setting this would be highly specialized knowledge in several major areas.

[damned]

Poisons and their use is a specialist skill. If he has no skill in it and you dont like it have some unpredictable results spring up. Range them from the poisons not working to the poisons enraging the victim to the poisoner or her companions being effected.

[Ardem]

Yeah the thing is he a plenty of skill in preparing and using and removing poisons, but that shop bought stuff in many respects. So I cannot detract from his skill. You can get poisons from herbs that easy that a herb related skill, but there is no skill in regards to milking it from an animal. Lets look at a herbalist. Herb Lore, Foraging, Prepare Herbs 3 steps

Yes herbs are generally plants but say you want to extra a poison from a poisonous frog and he/she want to sell it, then a herbalist should know how. So I think it is Fauna Lore / Poison Lore for the extraction and Prepare Poison to make it usable.

Thanks guys I think I am happy with that.

[MurderByNumbers]

I'm the player in question here...

So I grew up in an area where venomous snakes, scorpions etc are common.
There is no "special training" to milk a venomous snake of venom. alive or recently dead its actually quiet simple.

Hell you could put a stick on the head of the snake, pick it up at the base of the head, and with a gloved finger, pencil, pen, tooth pick, condom over a bottle, ANYTHING that causes the frang to pull forward will typically cause squirts of venom to come out.

a bee sting, no special training, if one stings you don't be an idiot and squeeze the stinger is still in your skin with the venom sack pulsing. squeeze the skin at the base of the stinger, lifting from the bottom.
you can then suck and spit out the bee venom. instead of getting a nasty painful welt its barely worse than a mosquito bite.

which now if you think about this rationally there are typically only a few ways to get venom into a foreign body. (my character would be well versed in these methods)
1- aerosol (fungas -airborn spores, plants, spitting cobra)
2- ingest (fungas, plant, animal)
3- a break in the skin causing poison to enter the body. - if you look at this one in nature they're pretty much all the same, some sharp hollow tube with a liquid entering the subject. bee, snake, scorpion, poisonous fish, etc.

Now if you're talking about something you eat, that is not clearly a venomous creature. Sure i can understand wanting fauna or some sort to know its poison.
But a known poisonous creature. How do you know its poisonous? well it attacked that guy and he got sick, so i want some. I may not know exactly what it does as a character (no meta), but i should be well within bounds to collect it in a vial, and the next time i'm at a location where i could buy poisons have it identified. Or even have one of the healers in the group (i believe the healer has identify poison as he has expressed interest in poisons to my character and wanted to discuss said topics) could also identify at least the affects, how best the poison could be used as a weapon (ie has the greatest effect on the recipient).


People with no special training all over the world throughout history have used natural poisons/venom in their natural (not processed) form.
Tree frog in the jungle, oh look that cat tried to eat that frog and the cat died, got really sick etc. well what made this frog different? oh look when you make it angry milky stuff appears on its back! roll a dart in it, shoot an animal. look animal die or become very weak. yay poison. there isn't an chemistry experiment going on, animals are not being raised, bred, handled in their live status.

I was not specially trained in these things IRL, its just things you learn from being in an environment and being observant. (my character has plenty of observation and isn't mentally handicapped)

Now if you want to get into modern science discussion
Viruses have short life spans outside of their host, typically less than 24hours.

Bacteria on the other hand can go into dormant states awaiting the correct conditions to reactivate (ie wait for a potential host to walk by, brush against a surface years later [sometimes even hundreds of years later] and then pick their nose, rub their eyes, eat with their hands, etc.) at which point the environmental conditions are now good for the bacteria and it reactivates and begins eating/multiplying.
-My character would not know this, be he would know hey that thing bit him and made him sick!! I dont see any venomous fangs, ill just take whats in its mouth and save it for later to get identified.


Using/removing poisons. very well trained
observation high

I'm not trying to create a poison, i'm trying to collect whats in nature. I could attempt to trial and error use these things... but lets get real here. my character knows about poisons, if the poison took affect due to an attack that broke someones skin... it's pretty obvious thats how you use it. The complete affect of the poison? level? cost? no idea. want to figure it out? attack something with it and watch what happens with my characters observation skills. or get it identified by someone who knows such things.





*edit*
as far as dangers of extraction, if you're a clumsy bastard in a hurry not wearing gloves? not only is there a chance of you getting hurt. you're stupid.

ie every time i try, " would like to carefully try to collect poison/saliva, while wearing gloves, into pre purchased vials" yes i bought vials for this. yes i carry other poisons.

seriously. How often have i ever used poisons in the last year? 2 or 3 times?

[damned]

Hola MurderByNumbers as a counter to your well reasoned arguments -

1. If there is a class that has poison use as a skill or specialty then you are weakening it by making poisons available to all
2. Your GM remains unconvinced. It matters not whether you think its simple/easy/logical/whatever - your GM feels it is imbalanced in his game. You shouldnt use it.

:)

[MurderByNumbers]

Hola MurderByNumbers as a counter to your well reasoned arguments -

1. If there is a class that has poison use as a skill or specialty then you are weakening it by making poisons available to all
2. Your GM remains unconvinced. It matters not whether you think its simple/easy/logical/whatever - your GM feels it is imbalanced in his game. You shouldnt use it.

:)

after 2 or 3 uses in a year?
ok then lets call a spade a spade, refund the dp and put them elsewhere. problem solved

im the only class that uses poisons in the party

[MurderByNumbers]

non issue after a year with the party im quitting.

https://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=17827.new#new

so between bad mouthing me behind my back and flat out lying to myself and the party in email i have decided to quit the group

good luck

[seycyrus]

...
People with no special training all over the world throughout history have used natural poisons/venom in their natural (not processed) form.
Tree frog in the jungle, oh look that cat tried to eat that frog and the cat died, got really sick etc. well what made this frog different? oh look when you make it angry milky stuff appears on its back! roll a dart in it, shoot an animal. look animal die or become very weak. yay poison. there isn't an chemistry experiment going on, animals are not being raised, bred, handled in their live status.

Did you and your buddies get the poison to shoot out from a snake, gather it up, carry it around for weeks at a time, coat a blade or arrow with it and expect it do something? Probably not...

As was mentioned things tend to degrade quite quickly when removed from their natural environment (body of monster in question). Your arguments here actually reinforce the point that such things are very rare. In all of human history, their have only been a few notable instances where humans have been able to extract the venom from creatures, apply them to a weapon and put them to use. Why do you think that when they milk poisons from snakes etc. the venom is refrigerated almost immediately, and transported in such a condition.

Maybe if you had pre-purchased vials with heavy enchantments on them to replicate the effects of cold storage...

[JohnD]

Not much point in argument/discussion; he's taken his ball and gone home. Something rarely seen after about grade 3.

Probably for the best, given the acrimony. Not really worth saying much more.

[MurderByNumbers]

Not much point in argument/discussion; he's taken his ball and gone home. Something rarely seen after about grade 3.

Probably for the best, given the acrimony. Not really worth saying much more.

grade 3? :o i think perhaps you should be the next contestant on "are you smarter than a 3rd grader"

[damned]

Ok so it didnt work out - there is no need for anyone else to add further commentary. This is between the GM and the Player.

[Ardem]

If I was not involved, I would get some popcorn and pull up a chair. However because I am it is making me cringe.

I did work it out with murder last night, as I said in the iron crown post, it was a mixture of conclusion jumping and and on my side being a shitty communicator. Having said this I am sorry it spilled over into here guys, was not my intentions in the original post, all I wanted here was clarification and some advise from the GM's I know on here. Hopefully this is the last of it. Please be the last of it <cross fingers>.

[MurderByNumbers]

If I was not involved, I would get some popcorn and pull up a chair. However because I am it is making me cringe.

I did work it out with murder last night, as I said in the iron crown post, it was a mixture of conclusion jumping and and on my side being a shitty communicator. Having said this I am sorry it spilled over into here guys, was not my intentions in the original post, all I wanted here was clarification and some advise from the GM's I know on here. Hopefully this is the last of it. Please be the last of it <cross fingers>.

+1.