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vodokar
February 1st, 2017, 05:04
This post is to propose a new Collaborative Project.

I am calling it C.O.O.L. Beasts.

Compiled Old-school Open-gaming-content List-of Beasts.

The design goals will be:

1) Collect any old-school style Beasts/NPC's that have been legally and properly designated as being "Open Gaming Content" under the terms of the OGL for use in an FG module.

2) This module will simultaneously support all old-school rulesets available on FG. The definition of "old-school" for purposes of this discussion would include original games such as AD&D and BX, clones of said games, such as S&W, OSRIC, LL and modern with old-school feel, such as DCC RPG and C&C.



In order to make number 2 happen, it will require some collaboration and coordination between our community devs to ensure that one xml module is capable of supporting the needs of each ruleset simultaneously; being willing to change variable names of npc fields in our respective rulesets in our purview, if necessary, in order to make this function properly, and possibly even changing some functionality in the ruleset in order to make it happen. Basically, we need to establish a standard format and play traffic cop with the data so that everyone gets a parking space.

The ultimate goals are: 1) to have one Bestiary Module that contains stats for all old-school community developed rulesets, thus making it easy for adventure module makers to easily support all old-school rulesets simultaneously and simply 2) allow DM's to have access to their Beasties within whichever old-school ruleset they decide to run this day, with the appropriate stats for that ruleset all set up properly for them and 3) above all else, ensure compliance with the previsions of the OGL that allows us to do this.

I have in my possession three Open Gaming Content Bestiaries to start with: Old School Adventures™ Accessory CC1 Creature Compendium, Basic Fantasy RPG Core Book and The Basic Fantasy Field Guide. Each of those three documents clearly state that all of the text in the books is designated as Open Gaming Content. The DCC RPG Core Book also states that large portions of it are OGC; I'm sure that applies to the Bestiary included in it.

In order to support this project, I also envision building an extension that will allow you to use an extended npc sheet with fields for the different rulesets all in one place so that the creature can be built once and exported to xml with all necessary data fields that each ruleset needs. Ideally, this extension will be built on the Savage Worlds Ruleset, so that it can be used in conjunction with the SW Enhanced Library Extension when building a module. We'll designate that "The Old-School Adventure Module Maker" Extension. If someone is experienced doing extensions and will like to take this up, please step forward. Otherwise, I'll try to dig into it.

I'm going to need help on this project. I am not going to enter several hundred npc's by myself. Divide and Conquer. Also, there is going to need to be quite a bit of coordination in order to set the stage for this to work. We need to ensure that data fields in our rulesets don't step on each other.

I need help specifically from our devs with old-school ruleset projects, but you don't need to be a developer to pitch into this project. Anyone can enter monster data into FG. We'll need lot's of help with that.

Zhern
February 1st, 2017, 16:54
The Swords & Wizardry Monstrosities is OGL as is the Swords & Wizardry Monster Book.

OPEN GAME CONTENT:
Open Game Content may only be Used under and in terms of the Open
Game License Version 1.0a (OGL).
This entire work is designated as Open Game Content under the OGL,
with the exception of the trademarks “Swords & Wizardry,” “S&W,”
“Frog God Games,” “FGG,” and “Mythmere Games,” and with the
exception of all artwork. These trademarks, and the Trade Dress of this
work (font, layout, style of artwork, etc.) are reserved as Product Identity.

dmkevin
February 1st, 2017, 19:26
Fantastic idea!!

Jay_NOLA
February 2nd, 2017, 18:56
Goblinoid Games' Labyrinth Lord, AEC, & Original Edition Characters are Open Game Content

http://www.goblinoidgames.com/ogclibrary.html

The text file version are right bellow the WOTC OGL files on the page above. A coupe of other Gobiond game products are open game content also I believe too.

vodokar
February 2nd, 2017, 19:04
Plenty of material out there that is Open Gaming Content and can be included in our project.


But, let me reiterate, we are going to need help with this. We need volunteers to step up. The developers will handle the technical back end stuff, but we will need some help with basic data entry. Even with this help, it's likely to take awhile sifting thru this data, organizing everything and getting it entered.

Jay_NOLA
February 2nd, 2017, 20:02
Basic monster entry is something I can do.

Will you also at some point do something similar to Beast to cover treasure, spells (other powers)

vodokar
February 2nd, 2017, 20:14
Those are a distinct possibility, but out of the scope of this particular project; as you would expect from the name. C.O.O.L Treasures and C.O.O.L. Spells could be something down the line; assuming that C.O.O.L. Beasts actually gets achieved.

The bestiary is the highest priority, as it is the most common thing for DMs and Module Makers to have to do is fill in npc sheets; very time consuming, especially if you have to do it manually every time, and especially if you use more than one ruleset and have to redo the same monsters over again with different stats for each ruleset.

It is especially onerous on module makers if you are trying to support multiple rulesets, because currently, you have to recreate these creatures in each ruleset, export to xml and then splice in the code manually; and as things stand currently, because there hasn't been coordination in making a standard, ruleset data isn't compatible, so you can't make just one module that can support multiple rulesets.

We currently have 3 active old-school rulesets: AD&D, C&C and DCC RPG. Pretty soon it will be 5, when S&W and Damned Basic Dungeon come on-line. Later on, maybe more. So, I'm trying to be forward thinking and get the cats herded beforehand.

damned
February 8th, 2017, 11:36
These are the fields I have currently in DbD.

<id-00018>
<align type="string">Neutral</align>
<attacks type="string">Tusk [D] 3d4,</attacks>
<cas1_label type="string">Rolls</cas1_label>
<clilist2>
<id-00001>
<clichatcommand type="string">/thac0 1d20x16</clichatcommand>
<description type="formattedtext">
<p></p>
</description>
<locked type="number">1</locked>
<name type="string">Tusk [Attack]</name>
<rollstype type="string">attack</rollstype>
<shortcut type="windowreference">
<class>cas</class>
<recordname></recordname>
</shortcut>
</id-00001>
</clilist2>
<defence type="number">6</defence>
<health type="number">23</health>
<hitdice type="number">5</hitdice>
<inlair type="string">2-5</inlair>
<locked type="number">1</locked>
<morale type="number">9</morale>
<move type="number">40</move>
<name type="string">Giant Boar</name>
<notes type="formattedtext">
<p>These massive boars are far more aggressive than normal boars and crave human flesh. They will attack without provocation.</p>
</notes>
<numattacks type="number">1</numattacks>
<numenc type="string">1d4</numenc>
<reach type="number">1</reach>
<saveas type="string">F5</saveas>
<space type="number">2</space>
<token type="token">tokens/host/DbD/b.png</token>
<treasure type="string">None</treasure>
<xp type="number">200</xp>
</id-00018>

Im pretty sure my critters will have a lot of different fields to yours...?

Zhern
February 9th, 2017, 00:04
Yep, considering all the S&W monster blocks are very simple. Such as this:

Gnoll
Hit Dice: 2
Armor Class: 5 [14]
Attacks: Bite (2d4) or weapon (1d10)
Saving Throw: 16
Special: None
Move: 9
Alignment: Chaos
Challenge Level/XP: 2/30
Gnolls are tall humanoids with hyena-like heads. They may be found
both above ground and in subterranean caverns. They form into loosely
organized clans, often ranging far from home in order to steal and kill
with rapacious ferocity.

vodokar
February 9th, 2017, 00:21
Already getting a start on Old School NPC Maker. 17834

Zhern
February 9th, 2017, 02:40
Excellent!

vodokar
February 9th, 2017, 03:00
Going very quickly. This is quite easy to do. If you've ever had one of those times when you see a commercial on tv about a new invention and think, why didn't I think to invent that, well, your having that again. he he.

17841 and 17842.

I plan to give each ruleset it's own tab.

vodokar
February 9th, 2017, 07:11
Made great progress the first day. All of the stat fields are in for C&C and AD&D. I will next be entering Damned's data fields in a new tab. I'll let you know if anything overlaps that shouldn't.

Note: There was one compromise I was forced to make. As you might know, the only attributes in SW that overlap with D&D are strength and charisma. I was forced to enter the fields as strength1 and charisma1 due to a database type mismatch (i.e. sw attribute die vs number for d20). So, this will still need to be changed in the xml output. A simple Find/Replace job to change all instances of strength1 to strength and charisma1 to charisma.

17843 and 17844

vodokar
February 9th, 2017, 22:00
I have finished the section supporting Damned Basic Dungeon.

I am not 100% certain that this will work without having to still do some minor edits in the xml, because of your unique data structure requirements. Specifically, I had no idea how to handle <clilist2>
<id-00001>stuff inside</id-00001></clilist2>. I also wonder, what happens if there are more than one attack. Also, have you devised a scheme for class-based npc's?

I had to make three changes to variables:

1) treasure = DbDtreasure (this is to allow a separate value for your treasure types)
2) xp = xp_DbD (this is to allow a separate value for your xp; also note that some rulesets use string fields vice numbers).
3) (under the attack section) name = attackname (this obviously conflicts with the "name" of the creature record).

"move" was left as "move", but this means it will be linked with the other rulesets data. If you think this needs to be a separate value, we should rename as "DbDmove".

"notes" was given a unique formatted text tab. The standard formatted text tab for the other rulesets outputs to the variable "text".

I have not currently done anything with <description type="formattedtext"><p></p></description> under the attack section. Also had no idea what to do with <shortcut type="windowreference">
<class>cas</class> <recordname></recordname></shortcut>.

Here is the screenshot: 17861.

One last thing. The tabs for the npc record are graphics vice being text, so, I'm going to need some new tab buttons made that say "C&C/AD&D", "DbD", "DCC RPG" and "S&W", as well as, "Text" and "Notes". If someone can help me out with that part, I would be grateful.

damned
February 9th, 2017, 23:32
Ill send you the graphics tonight Vodokar.

I can probably remove:
<cas1_label type="string">Rolls</cas1_label>
There is no need for this to be editable in NPCs.

Everything between
<clilist2>.. and ..</clilist2>
can probably be removed... but then Im not sure how much work this creates or saves when using COOLBeasts... let me think on that.
numenc is Number Encountered

Looking very interesting my friend!

Zhern
February 10th, 2017, 03:49
I'm excited for this, vodokar! Great idea with lots of potential!

vodokar
February 11th, 2017, 07:25
Did a second pass on the DbD Section. 17876

It now only has 2 variables different:

1) treasure = DbDtreasure
2) xp = xp_DbD

If you can change those two variables it will be seamless.

I used a new structure for the items between <clilist2></clilist2> so that output will generate that xml structure.

Items still not able to incorporate is <description type="formattedtext"><p></p></description> and <shortcut type="windowreference"><class>cas</class> <recordname></recordname> </shortcut>.

Other than that, I think we got it.

I will next turn my attention to DCC RPG. Hopefully Leo has been following this discussion.

Zhern
February 11th, 2017, 17:57
Nice, Chuck (or do you prefer Charles? Completely understand not wanting to be referenced by a name you don't prefer - for me, I prefer Patrick. The only people that call me Pat are my parents and my two best buds since we were 5 years old).

Anyway, can't wait to take a gander at this. I decided to work the S&W npcs very closely to how you have the AD&D npcs put together so we could maintain optimum compatibility.

vodokar
February 11th, 2017, 21:48
Finished support for DCC RPG in Old School NPC Maker extension. 17886.

Variables I had to change due to conflicts with SW:

strength = strength1 (this is the same change shared with the other d20 rulesets) (SW also uses strength and it is a die type vs a number)
agility = agility1 (SW also uses agility and it is a die type vs a number)

These can handled with simple find/replace in notepad++.

Variables changed due to conflict with other d20 ruleset:

ac = DCCac (this was changed due to a data type mismatch [string in DCC vs number in C&C]

This would best be handled with changing the variable name in the DCC ruleset to make seamless.

Variables changed in order to allow separate value for DCC ruleset:

treasure = DCCtreasure

This would best be handled with changing the variable name in the DCC ruleset to make seamless.

Variables shared with other rulesets:

hp, speed, strength1, intelligence, languages

This should be evaluated as to whether any of these values need to be separated from other rulesets.

Notes section uses the same formatted text tab as Damned Basic Dungeon.


S&W is next; but don't have enough data to continue.

JohnD
February 11th, 2017, 22:15
Some kind of serious voodoo going on here! :)

Zhern
February 11th, 2017, 22:15
As I mentioned, I'm using almost the same fields as you are for AD&D. I'm attaching a screenshot and a stat block. I'll be adding a bit to each stat block so fit with the NPC fields, such as size, # encountered, intelligence, treasure, base to hit, etc.

17887

Demonic Knight
Hit Dice: 9
Armor Class: -1 [20]
Attack: +1 longsword (1d8+1) or 2 slams (1d6)
Saving Throw: 6
Special: Breath of unlife, fear, magic resistance (30%), +1 or
better weapon to hit, spells, summon demons
Move: 12
Alignment: Chaos
Challenge Level/XP: 14/2600

Add:
Size: Medium
# Enc: 1
Intelligence: High
Treasure: TBD
Base To Hit (based on THAC0): 10

Does that give you enough to go on?

vodokar
February 11th, 2017, 23:04
Yes and no. Best is if I wait until I can see the actual code in record_npc.xml, as well as output in the db.xml.

As you are still in development, however, and are aware of the other specs already disseminated, you are in a position to name your variables either the same or different, as applicable, in order to fit yours in seamlessly with the project.

Just a few things that I notice from the screenshot and not seeing under the hood:

AC and DAC are used and are numbers, which matches up with AD&D, however, the difference is 19 rather than 20. This is due to the difference in how AC is handled between the two games, so you will likely want that to be preserved, hence, will want to name your variables uniquely, such as SWac and SWdac.

Movement rates are always problematic, because the precedent of using either "number of 5 inch squares that can be moved in 1 round" or "number of feet that can be moved in one round" with round = 10 secs has been established in modern games usually with 30 = 6 5 ft squares = 3 10 ft squares being the base as opposed to the old systems with round = 1 minute and base movement rate being 12" = 120 ft = 12 10 foot squares = 24 5 foot squares in 1 minute round. In order to be most faithful to the old game systems, we should technically use the older system, but to be honest, it doesn't make much sense when moving tokens around maps; most old school play was done theatre of the mind, so it didn't matter about how many squares you could move. Allowing standard movement of 24 5 foot squares each round of combat seems problematic or broken when not using theatre of the mind, however. That should be considered.

Base to Hit might conflict with other rulesets depending on naming of the variable. It should be maintained as a unique value due to the differences in the way other games assign Base to Hit values. i.e. don't use BTH or BtH.

Treasure assignment tables are always unique in each game, thus naming the variable SWtreasure is a good idea.

Attack lines in games are often handled differently, so it is likely a good idea to use SWattack or SWatk or something similar, so it can be maintained separately; but if not, then the closest would be to match it up with C&C variable names which are monsteratk and atk.

damned
February 11th, 2017, 23:35
Yes and no. Best is if I wait until I can see the actual code in record_npc.xml, as well as output in the db.xml.

As you are still in development, however, and are aware of the other specs already disseminated, you are in a position to name your variables either the same or different, as applicable, in order to fit yours in seamlessly with the project.


DbD is still early enough in the data entry stage (eg Ive done none this last month) that I can change some or all of my conflicting names...
Let me look at that.

Zhern
February 11th, 2017, 23:37
For now, I had been matching up with CnC because I figured that would be the easiest for compatibility. And if you leave it dac/aac and for S&W have it do 19- instead of 20- like in the AD&D code, it will be fine. Base to hit is basetohit but I'll go with SWbasetohit. S&W uses the older movement system of 10' squares x 3,6,9,12 depending on encumbrance. I'm planning on using the intended movement for S&W.

I should have the NPC stuff finished tomorrow or this coming week. If you want to wait till you can see the structure then I should be able to get it to you soon. It should look very similar in the DB as it does for CnC and AD&D.

Zhern
February 11th, 2017, 23:38
DbD is still early enough in the data entry stage (eg Ive done none this last month) that I can change some or all of my conflicting names...
Let me look at that.

That's the same for me. It isn't a big deal to change variable names right now. That is also why I'm purposely using the same structure and naming conventions as C&C and AD&D.

vodokar
February 11th, 2017, 23:43
I'm sure it will all work out.

Just imagine the power we will have to enter npc's once, all in one place, and have them be read by multiple rulesets. And don't forget, this can work in reverse; meaning you will be able to bring a bestiary from the other ruleset into the Savage Worlds environment and have them work. The time savings for creating publishable modules could be incredible.

That raises one final thought. I know Damned and Trenloe and some others are involved in doing CoC modules. Would a version of this for CoC be useful to do?

damned
February 12th, 2017, 00:00
Call of Cthulhu uses a very different set of stats and very different type of munsters.
I wouldnt worry for CoC.

vodokar
February 13th, 2017, 00:10
On our discussion of movement rate conventions. As "move" is currently shared amongst all of the rulesets, we should present movement using both systems.

From AD&D PHB
12"/60sec = 120'/60sec

Converting

120'/60sec = x/10sec; x = 120'x10sec/60sec; x = 120'/6 = 20' = 2 10' squares = 4 5' squares.

18"/60sec = 30'/10sec

etc.

Incidentally, the reason it was originally written in inches. The beginning D&Ders were mostly wargamers. It literally meant, take out your tape measure and measure off 12 in and then move your miniature, same as Warhammer still is today. The first gridded modules were coming out about the time the PHB did, so, both inches and feet were included so you could either use tape measure or count out on the 10' per square grid. But, I digress.

The "move" variable is a string, so we can simply write movement rate as 12"/min or 20'/10sec thus satisfying all ruleset requirements.

Zhern
February 13th, 2017, 01:54
Good call. I'm not changing any of the variable types either and I decided to do away with the automation when filling in NPC stats. I'll add something like that to the possible future enhancements list but it is low priority right now.

vodokar
February 17th, 2017, 03:17
I posted the Old School NPC Maker extension. You may get it here (http://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?36784-Old-School-NPC-Maker&p=321929#post321929).

I currently haven't added the Swords and Wizardry ruleset to the ones supported. I likely could have, based on the information given me, but it will be easier to work with it once the ruleset is released. Supports C&C, DCC RPG, AD&D and nominally, Damned Basic Dungeon at launch.

I plan to take a pass on doing other features, such as support of items, weapons etc. when I get time.

Jay_NOLA
February 19th, 2017, 20:48
One thing I noticed with Labyrinth Lord is that the Realm of the Crawling Chaos supplement added two more stats to the monsters stat blocks. So that might be something to check with other systems as well and see if that occurs with monsters in other systems. So that a space is available if a player is entering a monster that has a a stat block as an option, even if the majority doesn't use that info.

Also, for those that don't know Faster Monkey Games made all of their Labrynth Lord & Mutant future PDFs available for free on RPGNOW/DTRPG. If anyone is looking for some good modules that can be run with most OSR systems.

Jay_NOLA
February 21st, 2017, 20:35
Not sure if this will help much, but I started looking at monster stat info in a few system that add things or make changes in other similar or same line products.

This all the Goblinoid Games' monster block for the LL & official LL compatible stuff with changes noted.

Labrynth Lord Stats have this in a stat block. Note that the "XP:" was missing from the 1st printing and all don't have a Swim or Fly movement.

No. Enc.:
Alignment:
Movement:
Fly:
Swim:
Armor Class:
Hit Dice:
Attacks:
Damage:
Save:
Morale:
Hoard Class:
XP:


The Realm of Crawling Chaos supplement for LL added these to the ones LL uses:
Intelligence:
Psionic Strngth:

The Mutant Future game:

use the same as normal Labrynth Lord but adds a "Mutaions:" entry after the descriptive text.

Apes Victorious and Starships and Spacemen uses the basic Labrynth Lord format with these changes:

"Hits:" replaces "Hit Dice:"
"Armor:" replaces "Armor Class:". Note: In AV & S&S2e this is a to hit modifier number. A LL AC of 9 is equal to an Armor of 0 in these latter games. See the conversion info in AV for more info. They are differnt numbers that due the same thing.
"Psionic Potential:" is added.
"To-Hit:" is added.
"Intelligence:" is added.

vodokar
February 23rd, 2017, 04:04
Once I get the Old School NPC Maker tool finalized, I will give more guidance for the progression of the C.O.O.L. Beasts project with regards to specs we are working towards, submission methods etc.

At a high level, what we are shooting for is to seek out OGC creatures that may exist in one OSR game, but not in all. We then use our gaming knowledge and guidance from the various rulebooks to stat them out for all the various OSR rulesets available for Fantasy Grounds.

We can also include the common ones, as well, though that is likely a lower priority, due to the availability of the C&C Creatures and Treasure manual being available.

Exact format for filling out each statblock field, in order to maintain a consistent product, will be discussed at a later time.

One important thing to note is for the AD&D and Basic D&D Stat Blocks. Neither one of those sources are OGL or OGC, so, we can't take the stat-blocks verbatim from those sources. OSRIC and LL are likely the best sources to grab those Stat Blocks from.

i am building the Old School NPC Maker tool to support the Stat Block formats of each of the old school rulesets that currently exist or soon are coming to FG. Should new ones come available, I will look at the individual needs of that specific ruleset and update the tool to support it.

At launch of the C.O.O.L. Beast project, we will be supporting C&C, AD&D (OSRIC Stats), Damned Basic Dungeon (B/X clone), Swords and Wizardry, Basic Fantasy and DCC RPG.

damned
February 23rd, 2017, 04:44
Vodokar - Im going to change the names of my fields that clash with the other rulesets to make it simpler... Ill be in touch.