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darthbayne58
February 1st, 2017, 02:42
In the past the reason for D&D 5 getting the nice drag & drop features for character creation was that it was officially licensed. Does that mean with the new official Pathfinder content coming that we will be able to enjoy the same enhanced character sheet? While, yes, I could force my players to use PCgen (which isn't handling 4k screens very well) or Hero Lab (which is crazy expensive if you play many different systems) I would like to be able to skip that and work with a new player and help them with their creation within FG. If that isn't on the road map, what about support for HeroSheets (which appears like it will generate less phone/skype calls to explain)?

damned
February 1st, 2017, 03:42
I believe that the pathfinder character creation options are too complex... There will be some improvements but not massive ones... I think...

Bidmaron
February 1st, 2017, 04:11
darthbayne, hero lab is expensive because PF character generation is ridiculously complicated. It is completely unreasonable to expect FG, which focuses on the tabletop, to duplicate the functionality in hero lab. That is not FG's specialization, nor should it be.

So, if it isn't going to duplicate hero lab, then how about something less you would be tempted to ask. Well, where do you stop? No matter where SW draws the cut-off line, people will bitch. It is better to let the programs that specialize on character generation handle that and bring your character into FG. If you don't want to use them, then do it the old-fashioned way and manually make the character.

SW is doing some basic rules improvement, and none of us know what that is yet (or at least I don't), but it won't be automatic character generation. I asked the same question a while back.

Nylanfs
February 1st, 2017, 04:43
We are in the middle of re-writting our UI to use JavaFX from swing for 4k monitors.

Bidmaron
February 1st, 2017, 05:14
Nylanfs means PCGen.

Full Bleed
February 1st, 2017, 07:48
PF character generation is ridiculously complicated
Exactly what's so complicated about Pathfinder character generation?

Nylanfs
February 1st, 2017, 12:43
Speaking from PCGen's perspective, every book adds exceptions to the system. Plus there are MANY more options than 5e (so far).

Bidmaron
February 1st, 2017, 12:46
Exactly what's so complicated about Pathfinder character generation?

I lost count of how many character classes there are and most of those have a half dozen or more archetypes. Then there are a butt ton of prestige classes.

Like I said, the sheer number of add-Ons to hero lab answers your question.

Talyn
February 1st, 2017, 23:01
They are doing some minor tweaks to the ruleset itself but 5E level drag-and-drop character creation was taken off the table before it was even placed on the table. It's just too complicated and complex for Pathfinder with all the various character options and all the very specific mechanics that each book added. They'd rather Fantasy Grounds was the place to play the game, not create the characters.

And as soon as WotC starts adding more official character options, expect the drag-and-drop to start failing for 5E too.

Full Bleed
February 2nd, 2017, 04:45
Speaking from PCGen's perspective, every book adds exceptions to the system. Plus there are MANY more options than 5e (so far).
I still can't tow the line with regard to "Pathfinder character creation is too complex to get 5e character creation treatment" no matter how many times it's repeated.

Quantity of content does not equate "complexity" of character creation in my book.

I doubt that anyone would expect FG to cover every single splat/expansion book that's come out from the get go.

Start with CORE. Then APG. Etc. Build functionality as new products are introduced and require it. Not like they won't be *charging* for access to those materials as they support them.

If anything, the sheer amount of material available with regard to Pathfinder in their PRD should incentivize that FG has advanced and convenient features (like 5e). I really don't see the value in re-purchasing glorified "native" pdf's of pre-existing content if it's not going to actively assist in employing that content beyond what we can already do with this tool.

My biggest fear with the FG Pathfinder implementation is that it's simply going to be focused on content delivery instead of game management/playability. For me, that's the least important thing.

Bidmaron
February 2nd, 2017, 05:44
I don't see why it's so hard for you to get, Full Bleed. SW is a small operation. Lone Wolf employs about the same staff just on Hero Lab. Do you really expect SW to completely divert themselves to duplicate functionality that already exists with Hero Lab? If you don't get that, well....

We want FG to focus on what it does best -- play the game. You can bet that the stuff they do will add features, just not much in the way of character generation.

Talyn
February 2nd, 2017, 18:41
I still can't tow the line with regard to "Pathfinder character creation is too complex to get 5e character creation treatment" no matter how many times it's repeated.

Quantity of content does not equate "complexity" of character creation in my book.

Paizo has something like, what, 60-ish total employees? WotC has 23 on D&D last I checked? SmiteWorks has... 5? One of whom is not a programmer, so that leaves four guys to handle the Unity engine version, one of those four also handles and updates the current engine we're all using, and that same guy also maintains most of the rulesets. Most of the content that will be available in the store is being done by community developers in our spare time. They've said all along they don't want FG to be a character creation tool. Even the nifty new Lua scripts that power 5E's stuff breaks if you don't do things in a very specific order.


I really don't see the value in re-purchasing glorified "native" pdf's of pre-existing content if it's not going to actively assist in employing that content beyond what we can already do with this tool.

My biggest fear with the FG Pathfinder implementation is that it's simply going to be focused on content delivery instead of game management/playability. For me, that's the least important thing.

And that's fine. People have had to play for years on FG with just the SRD modules and community addons and copy/paste their own stuff into FG because of lack of licensing and OGL limitations. I'm sure plenty of people play 5E without purchasing the WotC modules. Others do enjoy the licensed content.

And who knows? Initially the response was "we're not doing anything at all with the ruleset," to "ok, we're doing some tweaks after all." If the licensing goes well and enough sales to support a big ruleset update, maybe that will happen. But it won't happen out of the gate.

Kennethinsum
February 3rd, 2017, 23:40
Just want to say Hi

Nylanfs
February 4th, 2017, 02:53
Hiya Kenneth, welcome to the forums and FG community!

Trenloe
February 4th, 2017, 02:59
Hiya Kenneth, welcome to the forums and FG community!
I suspect a bit of:

http://media1.picsearch.com/is?mFxE3HD6bLqbphr3URlgksrwYbsB3NqzF5NHYKpxNRs&height=266

But I'm giving the benefit of the doubt at present...

JohnD
February 4th, 2017, 20:06
Yeah don't think I'd click on the link in the signature either... just in case.

ddavison
February 4th, 2017, 21:19
We are not promising any massive support for drag and drop character creation, but we are looking into a few possible updates in this area. I doubt that it will be anywhere as nice as what currently exists in Herolab and PCGen. Those companies have had a lot of time to build out what they have today and it took lots of effort by a lot of resources from what I gather.

Our current focus is "mostly" on new content delivery and making reference material available inside FG. We will do the best we can as we roll these out, but we can't focus 100% of our attention on growing that area without negatively impacting development in other key areas.

paladinpariah
February 26th, 2017, 05:38
While I totally get that drag and drop character generation has some serious point of diminishing returns problems, what about other stuff that the 5e books do super well?

Almost every table in the 5e DMG can be instantly randomized in FG. Things like NPC personalities and treasure, which require rolls on multiple tables, can be generated with one click.

Can we expect to see functionality like this for the new Pathfinder modules? It's the kind of thing I shoehorn into my Pathfinder games from the 5e DMG and would love to see become native to the Pathfinder/3.5 end of things.

I also totally respect the great stuff SW does with a small staff. Kind of surprised Paizo isn't putting some people full time on this to help.

ddavison
February 26th, 2017, 14:15
Surprisingly, the PF Core Rules book doesn't really have many tables that lend themselves to that sort of randomization. For 5E, this mostly came with the DMG and Volo's Guide, which were set up with tables that worked great as drivers for generators. I'm sure there will be some with future products. What are the best products and tables that do this in the physical books?

paladinpariah
February 26th, 2017, 14:39
Off the top of my head:
Treasure (including different types of art, jewels, gems, etc)
Magic Items
Wandering Monsters by CR
Wandering Monsters by Terrain Type
Template Monsters like Death Knights.
Towns, Villages, Cities

Frankly Paizo would be really smart to commit some staff to this so they could generate tables that make FG more of a DMing tool. If 5e has this stuff and they don't, they're not giving anyone any reasons to not run 5e.

ddavison
February 26th, 2017, 16:18
I was hoping to find more examples in the Magic Items table sections that would allow you to do something like generate a treasure, but the most it actually does is allow you to roll for a single magic staff or magic ring you might find. That seemed extremely limited and I was going to wait to see if one of the books like the GameMastery Guides provided that level of detail.

Talyn
February 26th, 2017, 16:31
I was looking at the same thing, Doug and at least the Core Rulebook tables are too vague to build any "official" generation system. Even Paizo doesn't have any, the ones out there are community-built.

Trenloe
February 26th, 2017, 16:39
Wandering Monsters by Terrain Type
The standard 13 encounter tables from the PF Bestiary are in the FG Bestiary module. http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary/encounterTables.html

paladinpariah
February 26th, 2017, 17:34
I was looking at the same thing, Doug and at least the Core Rulebook tables are too vague to build any "official" generation system. Even Paizo doesn't have any, the ones out there are community-built.

The old 3.5 tables are pretty robust. Why not include them? They're OGL. There are lots of good random generators out there for free, but one that made parcels would be worth it.

Frankly they should just blatantly copy the 5e tables, "Pathfinderize" them, and change them enough to not be infringement. That would be an awesome product worth buying.

Trenloe
February 26th, 2017, 17:46
We're talking about official Paizo products here (at least that is the title and intent of this thread). For these products all Smiteworks can do is replicate the original Paizo product.

And no one should ever "blatantly copy" other non OGL material for distribution. If you change them enough to avoid infringement then you'll more than likely be creating them pretty much from scratch anyway - and maybe even making them less useful as the cool stuff from the original isn't being used. Best looking for ways to use OGL material (which any community member can do and publicly distribute) or look to get an agreement with the end publisher for an official release.

paladinpariah
February 26th, 2017, 17:53
Maybe Paizo needs to get on top of making some content that could help FG DM's more then. Right now you can almost randomly generate an entire campaign with 5e's massive amount of FG tables. Anything much less than that is just going to make Paizo look bad.

Trenloe
February 26th, 2017, 18:22
Right now you can almost randomly generate an entire campaign with 5e's massive amount of FG tables. Anything much less than that is just going to make Paizo look bad.
This is just a difference between what's been published by different publishers. There is a massive amount of Paizo Pathfinder material in general, with some that could be argued make WotC look bad, and vice versa. Different systems, different publishers - if you try to compare one to the other you'll always see differences. Does it make one publisher look bad compared to another? Well, I would imagine that is all in the eye of the beholder(TM). ;) The example you give goes way back to the original AD&D DMs Guide that had random dungeon etc. tables in it. Paizo obviously made a decision not to include such "stuff" in their core rulebook (which covers both player and GM "stuff"), which is bulging at the seems with lots of data and weighs in at 574 pages! Subsequent Paizo products add in various tables/design practices for the GM. As Doug mentions - do you have any examples of Paizo products that contain cool tables/design processes that would be good to add into FG? No comparisons/ideas from other, non Paizo products please! Thanks. :)

GMTroll
February 26th, 2017, 20:13
Doug, for Pathfinder there is a much more comprehensive random treasure builder in the appendices of Ultimate Equipment (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateEquipment/appendix.html).

Trenloe
February 26th, 2017, 20:18
Doug, for Pathfinder there is a much more comprehensive random treasure builder in the appendices of Ultimate Equipment (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateEquipment/appendix.html).
Thanks, I knew there was one somewhere! :)

paladinpariah
February 26th, 2017, 20:29
If that set of charts was put into FG and made one click parcels, it would be pretty epic.

Trenloe
February 26th, 2017, 21:36
If that set of charts was put into FG and made one click parcels, it would be pretty epic.
I'm sure when "Ultimate Equipment" is converted for FG that it will be a part of that.

darthbayne58
March 2nd, 2017, 23:31
So, I think I may have gotten a confusing message out initially. I get that FG isn't meant to be a character creation tool. What I was really driving more towards was the base portions of things (i.e. race selection changes abilities and bonuses). These things are located within the default material. I would think anything that has the link ability to able to be dragged on a character sheet (i.e. spells, weapons, feats, etc.). Weapons and items work great, but things like spells don't always link over the same way, race, class, and special abilities (i.e. channel energy) don't map at all. As it stands, I'm having to double-check character sheets to ensure they didn't add too many skills, too many feats, did they all of their languages, and the like. I'm just looking for a way to better stream-line bringing in a new player and/or keeping a veteran player honest quickly.

Bidmaron
March 3rd, 2017, 02:05
Darth, even if some of the stuff is implemented, it will almost certainly be a bridge-too-far to "keep a veteran player honest." It is highly unlikely that FG will ever enforce a player who goes in and tweaks some parameter such that it violates published rules. Not even 5e does that. If you are concerned that your players will be dishonest, then FG is probably never going to help you enforce that.

Maybe I am misunderstanding what you mean by keeping a player honest....

By the way, welcome to the boards!

Coalforge
March 15th, 2017, 10:50
I'm with Darth on this one. I just picked up FG last night and have been playing around with it for the last four hours or so. Thus far I have found the linking to the character sheet wonderful in some respects, and non-existent in others. For instance, when I try and drag a specific weapon over to the Weapon Proficiency box nothing happens, but I can certainly create a new item and fill out all the details. It doesn't make any sense to me why I cannot simply drag a "shortbow" into this field. The same goes for race. The linking is the important part. It wouldn't need to apply all of the racial modifiers or anything, but the ability to simply click on the link and bring up the race details would be nice. In a perfect world, each of the racial abilities would have their own link so they could be brought into an appropriate field when you selected the race (same with the Classes), but I would simply be happy with the aforementioned linking to start with. Does that make sense?

I work for a tech company myself, so I can appreciate the complexity that is being discussed, but my company also has a department dedicated to "user experience", in which we measure the ease of use of our software, and what causes our users to become frustrated with it. Hopefully I can bring some insight to the table on this sort of thing, and am happy to help out in any way I can.

Cheers!

damned
March 15th, 2017, 12:29
Welcome Coalforge.
Fantasy Grounds is in a state of constant evolution. Things are always improving and changing. As to having a whole department dedicated to UX... SmiteWorks is a total of about 4 FTE staff...
I havent used PF in a long time but most weapon data is filled out in Actions when you drag the weapon into your Inventory. The field you are talking about maybe something completely different and it may turn I should have kept my head out of things I know nothing about - but I thought Id say Hi anyway :)

Coalforge
March 15th, 2017, 13:00
Hi Damned,

I completely understand regarding the small staff, which is why if there is anything I can do to help I am more than happy to. :)

That said, when it comes to being able to drag the weapon links, it functions properly for the inventory and actions tab (just as you describe), but when it comes to the ability tab, and the Weapon Proficiency field, it doesn't drag over at all. Ideally, you could just drag the weapon link over (such as shortbow) and that would be that. Instead, the only option currently available is to create a new item, which is fine for "All Simple Weapons", but doesn't make sense for specific weapons already built out. It does, however, let you drag feats over to the ability tab as it should. Does that make more sense?

I could very well be wrong, but I believe that a change such as this is fairly minor and could be included in an update... the same with adding the ability to link race. The complication (and significant coding) arises when you start doing things like linking the racial special abilities and introduce the capability to either auto-populate the special abilities on the ability tab, or drag them over. Either way, it takes time and effort to introduce the special abilities as their own table/element within the ruleset.

Honestly, I am excited about the software, and impressed with its capability. I can't wait to watch it evolve.

Thanks for the welcome!

Bidmaron
March 15th, 2017, 13:52
If all you want is auto/linking, it would not be that hard. Anything else gets really complex.

Consider for a moment that someone drags a simple weapon into the box. The system would have to recognize that the weapon falls into the simple category and then create the simple weapon proficiency. Ok, still not that tough.
Now consider weapons like the bastard sword. If I recall correctly (away from my rules), that weapon had variations of you use it one or two handed.
And that is just one example. There are feats that alter the way a weapon behaves from a proficiency standpoint.
What you are asking seems simple but to do it in a way that does not generate a thousand exceptions that users will never appreciate is just uber hard. If they fixed it to handle the common cases, the threads would be polluted with folks wondering why they can't have the proficiency to work properly for their dwarven axe lord character who treats vorpal axes as simple weapons. Specious example but you get the idea....

Coalforge
March 15th, 2017, 14:20
Hi Bidmaron,

Oh no, I agree with you 100%... and I am also a fan of the KISS principle. Attempting to account for all the rule variations makes things get stupid difficult real quick. We are on the same page with the simple linking though.

I think I will put a bit of thought into the logic behind some of the more complex rule structures though. I deal with business logic/processes and build workflows based on that logic as part of my job, so perhaps I can do the same thing here in relation to the rules. I will have to see what I can come up with.

Thanks for the response!

ddavison
March 15th, 2017, 16:27
We have a bunch of PFRPG enhancements loaded into the TEST and DEV channels. We decided to leave the proficiency section as a very simple text list at this time, but there are big enhancements to race and class drag and drop. With the official content, there will be level based abilities linked to classes and these will auto-link all the abilities for you when you drag over a new class level, based on the new level you attain in that class. It will also do some auto-consolidation of abilities that enhance as you level up. We will do a video around the time of release.

paladinpariah
March 15th, 2017, 16:33
We have a bunch of PFRPG enhancements loaded into the TEST and DEV channels. We decided to leave the proficiency section as a very simple text list at this time, but there are big enhancements to race and class drag and drop. With the official content, there will be level based abilities linked to classes and these will auto-link all the abilities for you when you drag over a new class level, based on the new level you attain in that class. It will also do some auto-consolidation of abilities that enhance as you level up. We will do a video around the time of release.

This is some of the most promising stuff I've heard about the new Pathfinder stuff for FG. Very encouraging.

Trenloe
March 15th, 2017, 16:38
That said, when it comes to being able to drag the weapon links, it functions properly for the inventory and actions tab (just as you describe), but when it comes to the ability tab, and the Weapon Proficiency field, it doesn't drag over at all. Ideally, you could just drag the weapon link over (such as shortbow) and that would be that. Instead, the only option currently available is to create a new item, which is fine for "All Simple Weapons", but doesn't make sense for specific weapons already built out. It does, however, let you drag feats over to the ability tab as it should. Does that make more sense?
The proficiency section doesn't accept weapons (item) data as that section is for abilities/feats (which is what a proficiency is). Drag/drop the relevant proficiency from the PFRPG Basic Rules to that field to populate it (or create a new feat and drag that over). Note that it is just for information, there are no automatic non-proficiency penalties applied based off this data.

Coalforge
March 15th, 2017, 22:44
The proficiency section doesn't accept weapons (item) data as that section is for abilities/feats (which is what a proficiency is). Drag/drop the relevant proficiency from the PFRPG Basic Rules to that field to populate it (or create a new feat and drag that over). Note that it is just for information, there are no automatic non-proficiency penalties applied based off this data.

Hi Trenloe,

That makes sense, and I appreciate the info. I guess that means for Rogues or Druids (for example) I would just need to create a feat for each of the weapons they can use, in addition to (in the case of Rogues) pulling over the Simple Weapon Proficiency. Good to know.

Thanks!

Nickademus
March 16th, 2017, 00:12
If you use the Class module for PF, you can drag the rogue or druid's class proficiencies over that have the list of weapons. Should already be there; granted all the weapons are listed under an entry called "Rogue" or "Druid", but it is already drag-and-drop ready.