OSR/Classic Ruleset Interest List

[Zhern]

So far, the feedback has been positive for the following list:


Hackmaster (in progress by someone else)
Labyrinth Lord + AEC
Crypts & Things Remastered
WWII: Operation White Box
Apes Victorious
White Star (in progress - Andraax)
Mutant Future
Starships & Spacemen
Metamorphosis Alpha
Gamma World
Boot Hill




If there are others that you all have interest in, please list them in subsequent posts. I'll add them to the list and after I finish the S&W ruleset, I'll determine which OSR ruleset to tackle next based on community feedback and interest.

Other ideas:
Basic Fantasy RPG, OSRIC, Dark Dungeons, For Gold & Glory, Adventurer Conqueror King, Mazes & Perils, Sharp Swords & Sinister Spells, Stars Without Number, The Nightmare Underneath, Tunnels & Trolls, Myth & Magic, Godbound

[Andraax]

I've already got a start for a White Star ruleset based on Castles and Crusades. Need to finish that up sometime and put it out there for others...

[vodokar]

I haven't decided what I'm going to work on next. Basic Fantasy is a possibility, as is Metamorphosis Alpha or Ape Victorious. Any of those would likely not be too difficult to fork from what I have already worked on. Basic Fantasy, especially. It is basically Castles and Crusades with the AD&D five save system and attribute checks in place of the Siege System.

[JohnD]

Would there be any interest in a Gamma World ruleset?

[vodokar]

Absolutely, but I'm thinking that the best version of that will be Mutant Crawl Classics when it comes out this summer. It is 100% compatible with the DCC RPG ruleset out of the box. Nothing will need to be done to support it, other than possibly doing a theme extension. Get your books on pre-order.

[Zhern]

Heck yeah, Gamma World! I'll add it to the list. I'm thinking that MCC might scratch the itch but no sense leaving GW off the list, you know, just in case!

[Zhern]

Oh, and while I was at it, I added Boot Hill! Not sure how I could have forgotten those two yesterday.

[vodokar]

Boot Hill would be interesting, but it's been out of print for forever. I haven't seen a copy of it since I moved away from home in the early 80's. If they still exist somewhere's, they would likely cost an arm and a leg on e-bay. Likely not a viable project.

[Vackipleur]

OSRIC & Dark Dungeons is a good idea for compatibility with AD&D and Rules Cyclopedia / BECMI.

[Zhern]

OSRIC & Dark Dungeons is a good idea for compatibility with AD&D and Rules Cyclopedia / BECMI.

Yep, that is what I was thinking too. And to answer your earlier question, I'm definitely going to be adding Crypts & Things Remastered functionality!

[Jay_NOLA]

Some others:
Silent Legions, Godbound, Scarlet Heroes, Spears of Destiny, and Stars Without Number. Stars Without Number is getting a 2nd edition latter this years

Some other classics that weren't mentioned:
Top Secret (Note: The old classic version had 2 editions. Wrestling chart & value, and flamethrower all got pulled in 2nd version and some other stuff was added.)
Top Secret S.I.
Gangbusters
Star Frontiers/ Knight Hawks
Time Master and similar games that use the Pacesetter system like Star Ace, Rotworld, etc.
Villains & Vigilantes

Some additional info on some others already mentioned :

Starships and Spacemen has 2 different editions. The 2e version is compatible with LL, Mutant Future, and Apes. The older 1st edition isn't and is a different system. Goblinoid Games sell both. The 2e version is the more popular one..

Boot Hill had the old classic edition and a newer edition that came out years latter, which had changes to the system and is very hard to find.

Metamorphosis Alpha has had different editions and they have major changes in them in the way the game works.

Gamma World had different editions and the system is very different on the version being used. 1st & 2nd were compatible and the major changes in 2nd got introduced in 1st edition module. 3rd used a different system for resolution. and had skills, and talents. 4th was made to be compatible with AD&D 2e. Other latter editions aren't compatible at all with any older version.

Mutant Future is a retroclone of old 1st & 2nd Gamma World. Most people use that who can't get an older copy Gamma World and it has free version no-art version, a lot of support from various companies. This is the closest game to old Gamma World.

OSRIC did have a Fantasy Grounds version for and older version of Fantasy Grounds that doesn't work well in the new version of FG, due to changes, and and some modules. So it might be possible to use some of the old version on in making a new one.

[dmkevin]

Definitely Star Frontiers!

[vodokar]

It's pretty pointless to list games that have been out of print for eons. Players can't play and developers can't develop when they don't have access to the rules of the game. Even if a person here or there still has their old copy, it doesn't make sense to develop something that the majority could not play even if they wanted to due to not having access to the rulebooks, when there are so many good games already on our list which are available and getting played.

Here is one old one that is still going strong and has been in the public domain for years. Marvel Superheroes RPG.

There is a website devoted to it that has been up for about the last 16 years continuously that pretty much has every resource and adventure that was ever put out for the game for free download. In other words, while it was published by TSR, (much like Metamorphasis Alpha was owned by it's author even though TSR helped him publish it), it isn't owned by WOTC and was given to the public domain by the author of the game, as I understand it. It's still a relevant game and is still available, whereas many of the games mentioned are not.

[rbeard101]

Definitely Star Frontiers! Would also like to see Marvel Super Heroes and DC heroes from the 80s

[damned]

It's pretty pointless to list games that have been out of print for eons. Players can't play and developers can't develop when they don't have access to the rules of the game. Even if a person here or there still has their old copy, it doesn't make sense to develop something that the majority could not play even if they wanted to due to not having access to the rulebooks, when there are so many good games already on our list which are available and getting played.

Here is one old one that is still going strong and has been in the public domain for years. Marvel Superheroes RPG.

There is a website devoted to it that has been up for about the last 16 years continuously that pretty much has every resource and adventure that was ever put out for the game for free download. In other words, while it was published by TSR, (much like Metamorphasis Alpha was owned by it's author even though TSR helped him publish it), it isn't owned by WOTC and was given to the public domain by the author of the game, as I understand it. It's still a relevant game and is still available, whereas many of the games mentioned are not.

Whilst there is a chunk of fan generated material available for MSH I dont think anything official is in the PD. The Marvel brand is a very tightly held one!

[vodokar]

https://classicmarvelforever.com/cms/

This web site has been up continuously for 17 years without hassle from either Marvel or WOTC. It contains not only pdf's of all the rulebooks, but also every official adventure ever published for the game.

While I have been unable to find proof as to how they can do this; any reasonable person would assume that this is because the property was not ever owned by TSR, but retained by the author, and thus never passed to WOTC/HASBRO and that the author allows this. And while Marvel certainly would have rights here, I don't think they care that a game exists that is giving them free publicity.

[JohnD]

https://classicmarvelforever.com/cms/

This web site has been up continuously for 17 years without hassle from either Marvel or WOTC. It contains not only pdf's of all the rulebooks, but also every official adventure ever published for the game.

While I have been able to find proof as to how they can do this; any reasonable person would assume that this is because the property was not ever owned by TSR, but retained by the author, and thus never passed to WOTC/HASBRO and that the author allows this. And while Marvel certainly would have rights here, I don't think they care that a game exists that is giving them free publicity.

I'm not a big fan of the genre, but that looks like an awesome site for anyone who is.

[vodokar]

Precisely, and why I'm arguing, from the "standpoint of a reasonable man" that this is public domain because there is no way that the website could have remained up and running continuously for 17 years without being served a cease and desist or worse, if it wasn't legit. If I could find it, so could WOTC and they most assuredly would have caused it to be taken down years ago if they had legal rights to.

What that means for us is that any and all of that material is usable with no strings attached. And believe me, even to this day, there are lot's of fans of that game.

[damned]

The fact it exists does not make it PD. No where on the site do they claim any thing about PD (or anything else) they simply state they are making resources for a no longer published game available. I couldnt see any PDFs on the site but if they did and they were issued a C&D they would have no choice but to comply. If there is only text and the text is not verbatim from the books they could argue mechanics. For it to be PD it must explicitly be stated that it is PD.

[vodokar]

They have the actual pdfs. I agree that if someone had the rights to issue a C&D and did, it would have to be complied with; what I am arguing is that either no company does or they just don't care anymore. That is the only explanation as to why a site like that could have remained up for so long. It isn't as if they are hiding. It's top of the list on a google search.

Again, for us, it just means that if a community ruleset were made, people could go download whatever they wanted from there. I'm not arguing that we should be involved in distributing it.

[Varsuuk]

I own (somewhere) the advenaced box set, ultimate powers and I think couple modules relating to xmen/avengers... not 100% sure on last two. I bought them mainly because one of the players in longrunning AD&D campaign offered to run a Wild Cards universe game using those rules. So we all rolled up "Aces" and went to town. It gave me a break to write when our other GM wasn't running something.

Game was fun but not my thing in both mileu (i love READING scripted comics however ;p) and rules - too much subjectivenes for my anal nature, I guess.

But I looked and downloaded the advanced box to compare. looked the same - although saw had "Reduced" appended, no clue what meant as it included all the artwork (far as I can remember.)

I find it odd (and perhaps inspiring) that Marvel is not interested in killing it for the artwork/depictions and that WotC doesn't get involved if only for the constant TSR references.

Man, I miss TSR.

[knucklehead]

They have the actual pdfs. I agree that if someone had the rights to issue a C&D and did, it would have to be complied with; what I am arguing is that either no company does or they just don't care anymore. That is the only explanation as to why a site like that could have remained up for so long. It isn't as if they are hiding. It's top of the list on a google search.

My understanding of this is that if they haven't issued a C&D or protected their copyright in nearly two decades, they've effectively lost it anyway. Isn't the idea of all those "mean, nasty C&D's to fans" really a result of an IP owner being *required* to protect their copyright consistently, because otherwise they'll forfeit it?

[damned]

My understanding of this is that if they haven't issued a C&D or protected their copyright in nearly two decades, they've effectively lost it anyway. Isn't the idea of all those "mean, nasty C&D's to fans" really a result of an IP owner being *required* to protect their copyright consistently, because otherwise they'll forfeit it?

No. Copyright can survive your death - and your ability to actively protect it.

[knucklehead]

I was confusing trademark with copyright. Marvel isn't planning on losing that anytime soon, either. :) My bad.

[The Basilisk]

How hard would it be to go into the OSRIC ruleset and modify it to match the lamentations of the flame princess rules? I'm not a coder, and so far I've failed the last few times I went and tried to modify the names of the saves in the main character sheet. I haven't even begun to tinker with the armor class... If anyone can give me a hand that would be great. ALL i want to do is rename the saves and change THACO to ascending AC.

[Myrdin Potter]

I have a fair amount of LotFP and S&W modules I would love a ruleset to run them with. I can use More Core, but it does lack some of the automation that makes running adventures easier for both players and the DM. I hope that something eventually comes out for the OSR rulesets.

[damned]

I have a fair amount of LotFP and S&W modules I would love a ruleset to run them with. I can use More Core, but it does lack some of the automation that makes running adventures easier for both players and the DM. I hope that something eventually comes out for the OSR rulesets.

The OSRIC ruleset is dated and not complete.
There are now 4 excellent old school rulesets being Castles & Crusades, DCCRPG, vodokars 1E and celestians 1E/2E.
C&C already does ASC armour class.
Im not sure what DCC uses.
vodokars 1E converst ASC to DESC so Im sure an extension could be made to reverse that.

Swords & Wizardry by zhern may see the light of day still (Im rooting for ya zhern!).

From my perspective Id like to see a B/X or BECMI conversion before seeing another OSR set :)

Oh - and while MoreCore does lack the automation of more advanced sets there is a /thac0 roll which will tell you what AC you succeeded at hitting and the AC of your target is visible to the GM in the CT so its very easy to declare a hit or miss from that - huzzah ;)

[Myrdin Potter]

LoFP does ascending AC. And the split saving throws from the original D&D style. No THAC0. :-)

DCC is built on the 5e ruleset and the actual rules are disguised D20 with a heavy weird / heroic fantasy and old school race = class layered on top.

[damned]

LoFP does ascending AC. And the split saving throws from the original D&D style. No THAC0. :-)

DCC is built on the 5e ruleset and the actual rules are disguised D20 with a heavy weird / heroic fantasy and old school race = class layered on top.

Muddied waters - sorry - the /thac0 was just in relation to OSR in general.

For ASC AC you can use the attack strings. It wont declare the hit the GM is still required to adjudicate but there is no difficult math :)

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=20931

20931

[celestian]

Oh - and while MoreCore does lack the automation of more advanced sets there is a /thac0 roll which will tell you what AC you succeeded at hitting and the AC of your target is visible to the GM in the CT so its very easy to declare a hit or miss from that - huzzah ;)

I actually kept the ascending AC functions in the 5E ruleset for the AD&D Core ruleset. I just tweak bonuses to hit based on THACO (just calc bab) and then display what players expect (convert ascending AC to decending) and everything works. It's much easier than replacing it for descending AC.

The results end up being the same and everyone sees what they expect to see.

The biggest obstacle for old school stuff is content for me at least. I really wish I could put stuff on DMsguild for others to have/use but until they allow non-5E stuff... meh. I don't get it, it's free money.

[damned]

I actually kept the ascending AC functions in the 5E ruleset for the AD&D Core ruleset. I just tweak bonuses to hit based on THACO (just calc bab) and then display what players expect (convert ascending AC to decending) and everything works. It's much easier than replacing it for descending AC.

The results end up being the same and everyone sees what they expect to see.

The biggest obstacle for old school stuff is content for me at least. I really wish I could put stuff on DMsguild for others to have/use but until they allow non-5E stuff... meh. I don't get it, it's free money.

Hey celestian I added yours and vodokars rulesets to the Wiki today. If you get a chance can you check what I have written in case it needs editing. The wiki entries for all rulesets are all pretty skinny...

[celestian]

Hey celestian I added yours and vodokars rulesets to the Wiki today. If you get a chance can you check what I have written in case it needs editing. The wiki entries for all rulesets are all pretty skinny...

Thanks for the entry. Will do. I think im getting close to the point I'll stop calling it a project and have an actual "stable" after a few more updates. Maybe then I will focus on working on SRD/OGL data....

[damned]

Hah. From what I have seen it is ready to be called a thing!

[GunnarGreybeard]

From my perspective Id like to see a B/X or BECMI conversion before seeing another OSR set :)
I would 2nd that. Something pre-AD&D that is as fully implemented as could be (doesn't have to be 5e level). IMHO, there are a lot of old school players out there that might be drawn into FG with something like that. Most are financially secure, have mucho free time with the kids grown and out of the house and they ain't getting any younger. ;-)

[Myrdin Potter]

S&W and LotFP, both what I wish had something, are pre-AD&D.

The basic, expert, etc, that could be toggled do to ascending AC would handle a lot.

LotFP has their own encumbrance system but a lot is just classic D&D.

[Myrdin Potter]

I actually kept the ascending AC functions in the 5E ruleset for the AD&D Core ruleset. I just tweak bonuses to hit based on THACO (just calc bab) and then display what players expect (convert ascending AC to decending) and everything works. It's much easier than replacing it for descending AC.

The results end up being the same and everyone sees what they expect to see.

The biggest obstacle for old school stuff is content for me at least. I really wish I could put stuff on DMsguild for others to have/use but until they allow non-5E stuff... meh. I don't get it, it's free money.

If any product is OGL compatible, you should be able to sell it on the ship here. DMs Guild is for products that use the D&D ip.

[Myrdin Potter]

To be more specific, anything owned by WoTC and 5e is licensed to Smiteworks for FG. If it is UA and no profit being made, they seem to be allowing it to be released via DMs Guild.

If you want to release something using WoTC IP (full 5e rules and using the Forgotten Realms) but your own creation, then DMs Guild and Smiteworks cannot Sell here but they did do a deal with DMs Guild so you can at least release FG modules there.

WoTC and pre-5e, no VTT is licensed.

Any Open Gaming License material can be sold on the store here, with the permission of the copyright holder.

So the labor of love AD&D rulesets can be used for people that personally convert the old modules and love playing with those rules, but highly doubtful that the modules can be sold.

For Swords and Wizardry, Frog God Games is willing to allow their material to be converted over and already have a deal with Smiteworks. Zhern would certainly enjoy help on the ruleset he started, he is buried under actual 5e conversion projects and real life work.

For Lamentations of the Flame Princess, the ruleset is OGL and the zero art players book and the old referees book is free. I doubt it would be hard to convince them to allow for conversion of their materials. Some of their products have art and subject matter that range from PG to somewhat R rated, but mainly they are weird horror.

I think that OSRIC and Laberynth Lord have both allowed the rules to be used here. Should not be hard to offer modules.

Anything OGL could be sold here.

The weirdest one is DCC. The FG ruleset keeps getting better and Goodman Games has been pinged many times and have not shown interest yet in licensing their materials.

So if you wanted to work on a ruleset that would allow you to actually sell/distribute your work, the non-WoTC OGL rules are a more sure bet.

[celestian]

If any product is OGL compatible, you should be able to sell it on the ship here. DMs Guild is for products that use the D&D ip.

What I'm hoping for is the same requirements they place on 5E for previous version of D&D. As long as it's set in "FR" or not setting you can use the PHB/DMG/MMs. OGL/SRD is great but I'm no lawyer and would rather just be able to data dump what I have in FG format (creatures, spells, items/etc) w/o having to become one (and reduce the list of that data significantly).

Specifically this requirement.



When you publish material that has no setting, then publishing under the DMs Guild program allows you to use the entire D&D 5th edition rules, not just the subset found in the SRD. It also allows you to sell the material here on the DMsGuild.com marketplace.




For Swords and Wizardry, Frog God Games is willing to allow their material to be converted over and already have a deal with Smiteworks. Zhern would certainly enjoy help on the ruleset he started, he is buried under actual 5e conversion projects and real life work.


I did ping Zhern a few weeks back about the ruleset for S&W to offer some help if I could but didn't get a reply.

[Myrdin Potter]

There is no good business reason for WoTC to open DMs Guild to more than the current 5e limitations.

If it complies with the OGL, you can write modules that work in the AD&D ruleset and freely sell them.

Otherwise, WoTC has limited manpower and is mining the old material themselves. Plus, who knows who has all the rights for art and prose in the background and who they are allowed to have publish it.

[Zhern]

I did ping Zhern a few weeks back about the ruleset for S&W to offer some help if I could but didn't get a reply.

I must have missed it. I'll take a look and reply soon.

[vodokar]

[QUOTE

So if you wanted to work on a ruleset that would allow you to actually sell/distribute your work, the non-WoTC OGL rules are a more sure bet.[/QUOTE]

I have already blazed that trail regarding an old school compatible module (a non TSR/ WOTC product that I had permission from the author to publish) and got told "no" by Smiteworks in short order as not being something they wanted to sell in thier store. It is still possible to try to sell elsewhere, but likely would not be a successful venture. At some point, i will try again to push for the OSR movement, but I'm just one voice and easy for the powers that be to ignore, as such.

[celestian]

I must have missed it. I'll take a look and reply soon.

I sent it as a PM here.

[Zhern]

Gotcha. I found it. I'll reply soon.

[Ctmega]

I am still in for Basic Fantasy RPG if it can get on the list please?

Thanks!

[Myrdin Potter]

You mean the old D&D basic rules?

Again, other than a labour of love, converting the “official” TSR/WoTC rulesets means it always will be a fan creation and no rule text or modules can be available.

Converting (or updating to at least Core RPG)OSRIC (AD&D), Labyrynth Lord (Basic) and Swords and Wizardry or Lamemtatioms of the Flame Princess(original D&D) allows for at least the strong possibility for modules and full rules also npbeimg available as they are all OGL compliant.

I think that both of the AD&D rulesets that are here could be made into OSRIC as well and include the rules text instead of just the rules.

[Ctmega]

I was referring to this:

https://www.basicfantasy.org/

It's not a "Clone" per-se... more of a hybrid between 1E and 3.5 but it is Open Source which may give more flexibility around building a robust ruleset and modules.

Thanks!

[LordEntrails]

I was referring to this:

https://www.basicfantasy.org/

It's not a "Clone" per-se... more of a hybrid between 1E and 3.5 but it is Open Source which may give more flexibility around building a robust ruleset and modules.

Thanks!
I thought it had an ruleset already? Old and not updated, but I could swear I've seen one mentioned around these parts...

[Ctmega]

Vodokar was working on it... it's still on his to-do list.

[vodokar]

Correct, and to be more specific, it is currently on Damned's to-do-list to work on the visual appearance of the ruleset and then i'll put the finishing touches on the technical aspects of the ruleset.

[damned]

Correct, and to be more specific, it is currently on Damned's to-do-list to work on the visual appearance of the ruleset and then i'll put the finishing touches on the technical aspects of the ruleset.

Ahem.
vodokar might be on to something there...

[Myrdin Potter]

Like most of the rules based on the D&D chassis, that ruleset is just a small step away from LoFP. It would be more a matter of changing bonuses and saving throws amd such than recreating all the logic needed to run the game.

So I look forward to that ruleset coming out and I remember a thread on it in the past. Is it layered on top of core rpg, 3.5, or 5e?

[vodokar]

Basic Fantasy is a modification of my current AD&D 1e ruleset, which is to say, layered on top of C & C, which in turn is layered on top of Core RPG. And, as you indicated, it was a piece of cake making the modifications to my existing ruleset, because the logic needed to run it is already there and mostly it is a matter of changing a few numbers here and there, and modifying a few key lines of code. All I have left to actually work on is the combat engine itself.

Sniff, Sniff. Hey, is that fire i'm smelling being lit under Master Damned's feet? ;)

[Ctmega]

Not that I can do much in the coding arena, but I am happy to do some of the testing work if you guys need it.

[zombietots]

Hello I can't get OSRIC or Labyrinth Lord to work I get this

[10/7/2020 10:29:15 AM] FGU: v4.0.0 ULTIMATE (2020-10-01)
[10/7/2020 10:29:15 AM] OS: Windows 10 (10.0.0) 64bit
[10/7/2020 10:29:15 AM] GRAPHICS: Intel(R) HD Graphics 530 : 6095
[10/7/2020 10:29:15 AM] USER: Zombietots
[10/7/2020 10:29:15 AM] Launcher scene starting.
[10/7/2020 10:29:15 AM] [<color="red">ERROR</color>] Ruleset Info Load (OSRIC): An XML comment cannot contain '--', and '-' cannot be the last character. Line 2, position 3.