Discussion about Effect-keywords

[Ikael]

First of all, here are all supported effect keywords:

Attribute =/+/-Xd (support modifiers and dice type adjustments)


Agility
Smarts
Spirit
Strength
Vigor


For instance:

Strength +2 (bonus to any Strength based trait roll, including strength based damage rolls)
Agility -1 (decreases Agility based trait rolls by one)
Vigor +1d (increases Vigor trait dice by one type)
Strength =7d (set Strength to be d12+2)


Skill =/+/-Xd (support modifiers and dice type adjustments)


Fighting
Shooting
Throwing
Driving
...


For instance:

Driving +2 (bonus to all Driver trait rolls)
Notice -1 (penalty to all Notice trait rolls)
Fighting +2d (increases Fighting trait dice by two types)
Shooting = 4d (set Shooting to be d10)


Wild die =/+/-Xd (support modifiers and dice type adjustments)


Any Attribute or Skill


For instance:

Driving +2wd (increase Driving skill's wild die by 2 die types)
Agility =5wd (set Agility attribute's wild die to be d12)




Derived Stat =/+/-X (support modifiers and assignments)


Charisma
Pace
Parry
Toughness
Armor
Heavy Armor (the same as armor, but also grant Heavy Armor)
...


For instance:

Toughness +2 (increases Toughness by two)
Armor -1 (decreases Armor by one)
Parry = 2 (set Parry to be 2)


Damage type +X (support positive modifiers only)


Wounds
Fatigue
Encumbrance
...


For instance:

Wounds +2 (ignores up to 2-points of Wounds penalty)





Attack type +/-X (support modifiers)


Melee
Ranged
Thrown
Bomb
Arcane
...


For instance:

Melee +2 (bonus to all melee based attack rolls)
Ranged -1 (penalty to all ranged type based attack rolls)
Arcane +1 (bonus to all arcane based trait rolls)


General +/-X (support modifiers)


Trait
Attack
Cover
Defense
Damage


For instance:

Trait +2 (bonus to all trait rolls)
Attack -1 (penalty to all attack trait rolls)
Cover +1 (defensive bonus~target number increased against all ranged and thrown based attack rolls.).
Defense -1 (defensive penalty~target number decreased against all attack rolls)
Damage +1 (bonus to all damage rolls)


Special +/-X (Supports modifiers)


Shakenrecovery
Soak
Incapacitation


For instance:

Shakenrecovery +2 (bonus to shaken recovery roll)
Soak -1 (penalty to Soak roll)
Incapacitation -1 (penalty to Incapacitation roll)


Attack type combo +/-X (support modifiers. Attack type related modifiers)


Melee Defense
Melee Damage
Melee Armor
Melee Toughness
Ranged Defense
Ranged Damage
Ranged Armor
Ranged Toughness
Thrown Defense
Thrown Damage
Thrown Armor
Thrown Toughness
Arcane Defense
Arcane Damage
Arcane Armor
Arcane Toughness
...


For instance:

RangedDefense +2 (defensive bonus~target number increased against all ranged based attack rolls)
ArcaneArmor -1 (penalty to armor against arcane based damage rolls)

"Against me" effects
Add colon ( : ) to start of effect keyword to make to function only if roll is made against you

Attack
Trait
Trait's name (for instance Strength, Shooting, Notice etc.)
Melee, Ranged, Thrown, Bomb
Arcane
Damage
Melee Damage, Ranged Damage, Thrown Damage, Arcane Damage


For instance:

:Attack +2 (any attack made against you get +2)



Considered features

Initiative card dealing changes in effect keywords
Trait dice type adjustments should alter effective derived stats as well (currently you have to define these separately). Offer option to ignore this

[Ikael]

Above are currently supported effect-keywords. Do you think there is need for other keywords and what would they do?

Would it be beneficial if you could define these effect-keywords in other sources, such as in

Edges (for instance Block grants +1 bonus to parry)
Hindrances
Power
Armor (for instance armor could provide better defense against arcane based damage rolls)
Weapon (for instance Smart-linked weapon can grant +2 bonus to Shooting rolls made with this gun)
Item
Power


and they would automatically take effect. For instance when you drag Block edge to your edges list you parry would be increased.

What else effect-keywords could be used? What does DD5e ruleset effects provide?

[Zacchaeus]

The 5e Effects work pretty much the same way as the SW ones do in that you need something after if for them to work. DMG: on it's own does nothing but DMG: 1d4 adds 1d4 to damage.

5e Conditions do stuff. If an actor is prone then FG knows that an actor with this effect on it gives advantage to melee and disadvantage to ranged attacks.

I remember from playing SW that some of the edges were automated as far as I can remember; i.e. having that edge automatically gave you something somewhere. Having said that the more of these that could possibly be automated would certainly be a bonus.

[Ikael]

In current version some card dealer edges such as Quick and Level Headed are automated do that you get correct number of action cards per round. Additionally some wound edged are automated to ignore wound penalties

If edges and hindrances would contain effect keywords I and replace current implementation with it. For instance instead of edge name defining card dealing rules, the effect keywords would do that.

[Doswelk]

In current version some card dealer edges such as Quick and Level Headed are automated do that you get correct number of action cards per round. Additionally some wound edged are automated to ignore wound penalties

If edges and hindrances would contain effect keywords I and replace current implementation with it. For instance instead of edge name defining card dealing rules, the effect keywords would do that.

It does sound like it might be the way to go, it would eliminate some of the issues where different settings use Edges/Hindrances with the same name but different effects, if the edge itself had effects then mixing settings would be easier.

[Coanunn]

I agree with Doswelk, I think allowing us to define the keywords in the edges, hindrances, powers, etc makes the usage far more fluid from setting to setting. The main issue with Savage Worlds is that despite being rather elegant in design at core different licensees go very different directions with things to suit their design philosophy along with their setting. An example would be Gritty Damage from core simply indicates a roll on the injury table while gritty damage from Realms of Cthulu triggers an immediate vigor roll vs incapacitation and doesn't allow for soaking. While I know that is outside the effect these keywords have it was the first example to come to mind where a mechanic shares a name but wildly different in game effect based on setting.

One I would like to see added as a keyword would be the ability to manipulate the wild die. There are some edges that increase the wild die to a d8 or increase the number of wild dice etc. I don't know how far that would stretch this functionality as it isn't a raw +x/-x bonus to the roll but modifying what is rolled on the back end but it is certainly something that to my knowledge currently could only be done with LUA which would require an extension to be included with the setting. If it's possible to roll that type of manipulation into a keyword that can simply be called from the Edge, Hindrance, etc that would certainly be helpful.

Last but certainly by no means least currently I believe that monstrous abilities and racial abilities are both stored as edges and hindrances respectively. If that changes in the future would the keywords work just as readily from those data types? I know from looking at some non Savage Worlds modules they do make use of those data sets in their xml structure and it would be forward thinking to assume that Smiteworks would want to work toward one standard as we are seeing with several other features, thus designing this from the start to work with those data types would be a way to future proof the design possibly.

[Ikael]

Difference between settings was one reason I started to consider this change. Name is no longer enough to cover all different cases and I want to give more freedom to content creators to utilize these features. Currently you will need to write lua to make initiative card dealing changes. I want change this that content creators would only need to use effect keywords to do this.

You can already set different wild die individually to any attribute, skill, attack and power. You need to hold ALT down and drag-drop any dice on the field you use to make the roll and that will become new wild die for that trait. You can also already alter trait die with effects, write effect "Fighting +2d" and all your fighting trait rolls will use two types better die when you make the roll. The alter wild die idea is good one! I could easily add support to write effect "Fighting +1wd" and all fighting rolls would use one dice type better wild die. I will add this todo list anyways. There is no need to provide custom lua code to support die type adjustments, its already in the ruleset.

Monster abilities and Racial abilities are already the very same (codewise) as edges and hindrances so they would get all the same features. Monstrous abilities also have some features that could be supported by effect keyeords, such as Hardy, currently the name is hardcoded in but that's something I do not like.

[Dr0W]

In my humble opinion what the SW ruleset really lacks in terms of effects is a practical way for players to apply it themselves with a single click, just like the DnD one does. That and the fact that the applied effects won't work unless the CT is open. Everything works fine if you know what you're doing and the DM applying all effects, but the way the DnD ruleset works is just far better.

[Ikael]

Players can already apply effects, you just need to enable it from options. If effects are embedded into gear and edges/abilities they would be in use when if CT is not open. However effects in gear would only apply if gear is equipped. Maybe there is need to have other character based effects for instance disease which would apply in all cases as well

[Dr0W]

Thank god, I thought I was going crazy. If effects were into gear, edges and abilities and if you could apply them to a target it would be REALLY great.

[zarlor]

I have to agree with others here, I think this is a FANTASTIC idea. Also, thank you very much for the keyword listing. I was actually looking for just such a thing recently and this is quite helpful. I would also add that I certainly had a lot of confusion for a while about why some of these things only sometimes worked until I finally noticed that the one consistency where it would work was only when the character was in the Combat Tracker. So anything which would make those effects more versatile so they would apply whenever that thing exists for a character would also help to create, I think, a lot less confusion for people learning to use FG. Overall I think having keywords that are otherwise available in SW settings for all of the items listed would be very useful. Not to mention you never know what "house rules" are going to be out there that will create things that could apply any of those effects for a character from any number of possible avenues so having the flexibility to use such keywords on just about anything that could be placed onto a character would be very helpful.

[Ixion77]

I agree, keyword listing is quite helpful.
Here are my ideas

The extend Ikael list on post #1:
Have a [GRANT] prefix tag. Let's say you have both Parry +1 on you character, AND Parry -1 on everyone attack your charater. So it could be something like: [Parry +1], [GRANT][Parry -1]

Descriptive source of Effects in Combat Tracker:
To let to display wich charcter/NPC have created the effect row
To let to display the name of the Item/Power/Edge/Whateveryouwant source of the [EFFECT]
See screenshot 17698

About [EFFECTS] list, and apply effects by players:
If you try to create a comprehensive list of effects, you'll get a neverending list. Take a look to my uncomplete Effects list
17700

So let's take look again at DD5e
17699
Here you can create single rows, where to put [EFFECT] tags
Every row can be a subelement of a power, a wepon, an edge, etc (to be used not only from charatcert sheet but also from NPC sheets).

And this will keep SW real Fast&Furious (not only from the GM side) :P

[Ikael]

Have a [GRANT] prefix tag. Let's say you have both Parry +1 on you character, AND Parry -1 on everyone attack your charater. So it could be something like: [Parry +1], [GRANT][Parry -1]


Can you give example in what case/situation this would come in play? I believe your examples means that you have +1 parry defense boost and everyone you attack will have -1 parry. I do not recall any situation like that; the idea is that if you reduce combatants parry, say by making successful Trick action you reduce opponent's parry by 2 and everyone attacking that person will "gain" the benefit. That said, atm I do not find use case for GRANT idea.



Descriptive source of Effects in Combat Tracker:
To let to display wich charcter/NPC have created the effect row


In current release version if Effect is Power, there is information next to the effect line, who casted the effect. Is there any other case where you might need to know who applied the effect?



To let to display the name of the Item/Power/Edge/Whateveryouwant source of the [EFFECT]


You can already name the effect to anything you like such as "Prone [Parry -2]" where Prone is the name of the effect and will be displayed in the chat window when effect modifier is applied. Did I understood this correctly?




About [EFFECTS] list, and apply effects by players:
If you try to create a comprehensive list of effects, you'll get a neverending list. Take a look to my uncomplete Effects list


Idea is to embed effect keywords directly to edges, hindrances, racial abilities, monstrous abilities and gear where it makes sense; such as Rapier grants you parry +1 if it's equipped and Block edge would grant +1 parry bonus. I believe the effect list would get shorter when/if this is implemented since you have effects already embedded to individual entities and can apply them from there.

Good discussion, bring more in!

[Ixion77]

Can you give example in what case/situation this would come in play? I believe your examples means that you have +1 parry defense boost and everyone you attack will have -1 parry. I do not recall any situation like that; the idea is that if you reduce combatants parry, say by making successful Trick action you reduce opponent's parry by 2 and everyone attacking that person will "gain" the benefit. That said, atm I do not find use case for GRANT idea.
IZ - Cyberware, Wireless Reflexes I-III: your character gain a +1 Parry Bonus, and imposes a -1 penalty to attackers trying to target you with ranged attacks. So let's say you created an effect coded as [Parry +1], [GRANT][Ranged -1]
SW - Edge, Dodge (and Improved Dodge too): -1 to ranged attacks rolls of your enemy, you character gain +1 to Agility rolls to evade area effect attacks. Coded [GRANT][Ranged -1],[Agility +1]
SW - Power, Invisibility: a character may detect the invisible presence [...] once detected he may attack the foe at -4. Coded [GRANT][Melee -4], [GRANT][Ranged -4] ... and so on
Why to use a [GRANT] tag in effects? Let's look at the Invisibility power.
See this CT:
17705
Let's say the Dummy ENEMY have spotted the invisble CHARACTER, and he makes two attacks. The first one to the Dummy CHARACTER, the second one to the ALLY.
For sure you can apply a -4 malus to the Dummy ENEMY. But this will trigger to every outgoing attack regardless of the target (invisible or not, FG can't know it). So you have to apply the -4 malus, make the attack roll, resolve damage if hit, next remove the -4 malus, ang go on with the attack roll on next target (or vice versa). Same workflow even if you use the generic modifier on the fly (I mean the modifier box in bottomleft corner).
Instead with the GRANT tag, you make on click to apply the specific effect on the target, and that's all, go on to roll the dice, without worring about particular modifiers.

In current release version if Effect is Power, there is information next to the effect line, who casted the effect. Is there any other case where you might need to know who applied the effect?
I'm thinking out of the box. Let's say you have a magic item (cloak of invisibility, cloak of displacement wich apply a -2 malus to melee attack rolls of your attackers), special items (drugs, poisons?)
For Powers the current Effect field seems can fit the goal. With subpowers you can cover variants based on rises and so on. You click the effect and is applayed to current target (or drag&drop in CT or token). Should be tested on the field


You can already name the effect to anything you like such as "Prone [Parry -2]" where Prone is the name of the effect and will be displayed in the chat window when effect modifier is applied. Did I understood this correctly?
Exactly! More examples can be:
Wild Attack [Fighting +2, MeleeDamage +2, Parry -2]
Unstable Platform [Shooting -2]
Entangle [Agility -2, Strength -2]
Confined Space [Parry -1, Fighting -1]
and so on


Idea is to embed effect keywords directly to edges, hindrances, racial abilities, monstrous abilities and gear where it makes sense; such as Rapier grants you parry +1 if it's equipped and Block edge would grant +1 parry bonus. I believe the effect list would get shorter when/if this is implemented since you have effects already embedded to individual entities and can apply them from there.
Definitely agree. Autoembedding [EFFECTS] is wonderful. I fear that embed effects to every single entity is a titanic work. The problem with DD5e is that is hidden from user side, until you add entities to character sheet (for NPC until you drop them in CT).
My idea is to give the ability to append multiple EFFECT lines, to every single entities (as per DD5e character sheet > tab Actions), and extend this feature also to NPC sheets.

So we will have:
- the ability to create EFFECT LINES
- the EFFECT LIST wich can work as a base library
- the coding sintax, maybe with special tags like [GRANT]
The final user can combine these elements in Character/NPC sheets, without having to wait that a specific module is coded with embedded effects (always feasible in the future).

Again my two cents, from my point of view, and my gameplay style. Anyway really like the way ideas are growing up!

[geolama]

Apologies for arriving to the Effects partly late... What is the syntax for an effect that modifies a specific Knowledge skill roll; e.g. an Edge effects Knowledge (Battle) and this syntax, [Knowledge (Battle) +2], does not modify a roll a Knowledge (Battle) skill roll. But [Knowledge +2] will work for any Knowledge skill roll.

[Ikael]

Apologies for arriving to the Effects partly late... What is the syntax for an effect that modifies a specific Knowledge skill roll; e.g. an Edge effects Knowledge (Battle) and this syntax, [Knowledge (Battle) +2], does not modify a roll a Knowledge (Battle) skill roll. But [Knowledge +2] will work for any Knowledge skill roll.

Try leaving parenthesis away, ie.



[Knowledge Battle +2]

[geolama]

[Knowledge Battle +2] is not the correct syntax, either.

[geolama]

If the skill on the character sheet is "Knowledge Battle" and the effect syntax is [Knowledge Battle +2], it works.

[Ikael]

[Knowledge Battle +2] is not the correct syntax, either.

In that case skills with parenthesis were never supported in the first place. I can take alook if I can easily add support my suggested approach but I will be honest, I might have reserved parenthesis for something else already.

[Muagen]

Is there a way to use these effect keywords to add Edges/Hindrances?
For instance, I want to make a playable troll race, and I want all trolls to have the Ugly Hindrance populate on the character sheet automatically because of a Monstrous Ability.

[Ikael]

Is there a way to use these effect keywords to add Edges/Hindrances?
For instance, I want to make a playable troll race, and I want all trolls to have the Ugly Hindrance populate on the character sheet automatically because of a Monstrous Ability.

Effects are not for that purpose. You should create Race instead and define Ugly as Racial Ability.

[Muagen]

Thanks for getting back with me so quickly, Ikael, and I apologize for taking so long to respond.

I wanted to add specificity to my question, in case I wasn't clear.

I can create an ability like Troll Vigor, and as an effect of that ability, I can add a die-type to Vigor.
26170

When I add that ability to a race,
26171
then drag the race into the appropriate field on a character sheet, the Vigor die defaults to a d6.

What I would love to see is something like Troll Ugly
26172
populate the Hindrance field with the appropriate Hindrance when I drag the race into the race field, as well.

Is this possible?

[Ikael]

what I would love to see is something like Troll Ugly
26172
populate the Hindrance field with the appropriate Hindrance when I drag the race into the race field, as well.

Is this possible?

That is unfortunately not possible.

[Muagen]

I'll work around it, then.
Thanks for the swift response!

[HouseDressing]

Is there a current EffectRef list for SWADE?

[amerigoV]

Its in the Savage Worlds part of the FG Wiki. Even better, if you open the Effects in FG and hit the question mark in the upper right hand corner, it opens said wiki page. This works in both FGC and FGU.