Two Problems with Effects for STR and DEX

[LordBalkoth]

1, for an NPC, how do I inform the game that the NPC is using a 2H weapon? Character sheets give a spot to put a 1.5 STR modifier (or 2 or 3 or whatever) but NPCs don't seem to have that. Which becomes an issue if an NPC Barbarian rages with a Greataxe and only gets +2 damage rather than +3 damage.

2, the Max DEX stat does not seem to be calculated properly with effects. Say a character is wearing a Chain Shirt (4 AC, 4 max DEX) with 18 DEX. That's +8 AC total. If I then apply a Cat's Grace effect to the character, he'll go up to +10 AC...even though he shouldn't gain any AC. And if I adjusted his character sheet he wouldn't gain AC. But he does from effects.

[Zacchaeus]

For what ruleset?

[damned]

Please post ruleset specific questions in the ruleset subforums rather than here...

[LordBalkoth]

Pathfinder.


Please post ruleset specific questions in the ruleset subforums rather than here...

Perhaps I'm confused -- I thought those were for discussions of the actual ruleset. Not for issues/bugs with FG itself that might pertain to that ruleset.

[damned]

If you post it in the ruleset forum you are more likely going to get a response from others who know and use the ruleset.
If you post it here and dont mention a ruleset no one knows exactly what you are experiencing.

I dont think there is anywhere to do what you want with the Barbarian NPC - Id just modify the damage manually on the sheet if thats what they are doing. If its a PC controlled NPC and you want that degree of control you would set them up as a PC I think.
I thought Cats Grace did effect AC? https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/cat-s-grace
If it doesnt then Im thinking you only want to apply an adjustment on skill checks and saving throws so you wouldnt do a DEX: +4

[LordBalkoth]

Cat's Grace affects AC...but only if your current Dex is below the max Dex of the armor. So if I have 14 Dex (+2) with a Chain Shirt allows 4 Max Dex, then Cat's Grace would indeed give me 2 AC. But if I have 16 Dex (+3) I'd only get +1 from Cat's Grace. And with 18+ Dex I'd get 0 AC...but I'd still get AB (for certain weapons), Reflex, Initiative, etc.

And I thought these rules were essentially the same for 3E, 3.5E, 4E, 5E, and Pathfinder...but apologies if not.

[Nickademus]

The NPCs in the PF ruleset don't have actual ability scores in the same way that PC's do. So the idea of FG knowing to add 1.5 Str bonus to the damage of a 2-H weapon is irrelevant. FG doesn't add any Str bonus to the weapon damage as the damage is simply a string such as 'greataxe +6 (1d12+8)'. You will have to add a STR effect that has the 1.5 Str bonus built in for Rage or Power Attack.

As for Cat's Grace, I think you are right. That would be a bug if FG doesn't check the Max Dex Bonus before upping AC from a DEX effect.

[LordBalkoth]

As for Cat's Grace, I think you are right. That would be a bug if FG doesn't check the Max Dex Bonus before upping AC from a DEX effect.

And just to make sure we're on the same page, the Cat's Grace issue is for player characters (since NPCs don't have a Max Dex stat).

[Nickademus]

Technically they don't. But theoretically they do even though FG doesn't know what armor they are wearing. The automation can only go so far; there are far more NPCs than PCs so they can't be given the same amount of code/memory use.

[LordBalkoth]

Sure, but my point is that I'm not concerned about the DEX issue for NPCs. Just for PCs who explicitly have a Max DEX stat.

[damned]

Hi LordBalkoth - didnt Moon Wizard reply in the other thread that FG doesnt take Max DEX into calculation or something similar?
There are lots of edge cases that FG doesnt calculate. Edge cases require so much more programming and often are exceptions or introduce more exceptions that it becomes significantly harder to program each one in each time. Perhaps you can put together some other combination of Effects that will cover the saves and not AC or use Modifiers when you need to roll on those?

[LordBalkoth]

didnt Moon Wizard reply in the other thread that FG doesnt take Max DEX into calculation or something similar?

Correct. I was just clarifying here that I didn't expect it to work for NPCs, was only concerned with PCs.


There are lots of edge cases that FG doesnt calculate.

Why do you think this is an edge case vs a common issue? Serious question. From my perspective this doesn't seem like an edge case at all.


Perhaps you can put together some other combination of Effects that will cover the saves and not AC or use Modifiers when you need to roll on those?

I think what I'd need is seven different Cat's Grace effects.

Effect 1: 2 Initiative, 2 Reflex, 2 skills (to all dex skills)
Effect 2: 2 AB
Effect 3: 1 AC
Effect 4: 2 AC
Effect 5: 2 damage
Effect 6: 3 damage
Effect 7: 2 CMD (how is this even done?)

Effect 1 would apply to everyone (everyone is guaranteed that from Cat's Grace). Effect 2 only applies to people with Weapon Finesse. Effect 3 applies to people who get exactly 1 AC from Cat's Grace. Effect 4 applies to people who get 2 AC. People already at max Dex get neither effect 3 nor effect 4. Effect 5 applies to people with dex to damage, effect 6 applies to people 2Hing a dex to damage weapon. Effect 7 would apply to everyone, but I don't even know how to apply ONLY a CMD bonus.

Frankly, simply having the code compared the overall Dex to the Max Dex stat when it comes to calculating AC seems a lot simpler.

[LordEntrails]

...
Why do you think this is an edge case vs a common issue? Serious question. From my perspective this doesn't seem like an edge case at all.
...
IMO, because it applies to one spell out of a hundred plus. Because it only effects some uses or situations of the spell.

And there are workarounds: As you said earlier, if you change it on the character sheet instead of an effect it gives you the expected behavior. And you can use individual effects to get the desired behavior.

All that said, it would be valuable for SmiteWorks to consider implementation of this. If it is something they can do reasonably with a reasonable benefit, they will put it on their list of things to do. And the best way to have it considered is to put it on the wishlist; fg2app.idea.informer.com

Remember, just because something is valuable and would be beneficial, doesn't mean that 1) it makes sense to implement it and 2) that their are resources to implement it. As we all know, their are a thousand good ideas of ways to improve FG. We have to trust SW to make the right business decisions on what to spend their resources on. History shows they do a great job of listening to us and making valuable improvements, even when they don't implement a specific improvement that is popularly desired.

Put it on the wishlist, and then get back to gaming :)

[Nickademus]

Effect 7: 2 CMD (how is this even done?)'CMD: 2'


There are lots of edge cases that FG doesnt calculate. Edge cases require so much more programming and often are exceptions or introduce more exceptions that it becomes significantly harder to program each one in each time.

I wouldn't call this an edge case. It affects all rulesets that have a max dex bonus and all characters that utilize heavy (and medium for 3.5e/PF) armor. I'd call it a bug, as FG is changing a number without collecting all the data to make the proper change.

[Nickademus]

IMO, because it applies to one spell out of a hundred plus. Because it only effects some uses or situations of the spell.

This has nothing to do with a spell. (A spell was what brought it to our attention.) This is about the DEX effect not working properly. It applies in any situation the character gets a dex bonus and an effect is used.

There was a similar bug not too long back where the 'AC: # armor' effect, such as from mage armor, would stack with the armor bonus field from the character sheet. (Normally the higher bonus is used.) This was noted as a bug and fixed by Smiteworks. I don't see this case being any different and I suspect moonwizard has already seen this and we'll see a ninja fix in the next Updates section of test version 3.2.3.

[damned]

This has nothing to do with a spell. (A spell was what brought it to our attention.) This is about the DEX effect not working properly. It applies in any situation the character gets a dex bonus and an effect is used.

There was a similar bug not too long back where the 'AC: # armor' effect, such as from mage armor, would stack with the armor bonus field from the character sheet. (Normally the higher bonus is used.) This was noted as a bug and fixed by Smiteworks. I don't see this case being any different and I suspect moonwizard has already seen this and we'll see a ninja fix in the next Updates section of test version 3.2.3.

A bug would be if Max Dex was implemented and didnt work.
At the moment its a feature that hasnt been implemented.
In my opinion this is a perfect example of an edge case - in the however many years people have been using the PF ruleset for the 100,000 game sessions run how many times have you seen this discussed?
Possibly it will get added as a new feature of an upcoming release.

Would another way of applying an appropriate Effect be to Apply the Dex modifier and to apply the AC modifier?

[Nickademus]

A bug would be if Max Dex was implemented and didnt work.
At the moment its a feature that hasnt been implemented.
I'm fairly certain that in the 3.5e/PF ruleset the Max Dex variable is indeed implemented and is used to calculate AC. In fact, it has its own entry on the inventory tab next to spell failure and armor check penalty. The fact that the Max Dex value restricts the amount of bonus from the Dex column of the character sheet but doesn't restrict the amount of bonus from the DEX effect is indication that it is implemented and doesn't work, a.k.a. a bug (by your standards).

Now, in the 5e ruleset I have no idea if it is implemented or just a number in the armor descriptions. Though it might be a bug there too.


In my opinion this is a perfect example of an edge case - in the however many years people have been using the PF ruleset for the 100,000 game sessions run how many times have you seen this discussed?

I agree with this, but it just means that no one has noticed they are getting too much AC (or aren't willing to point it out to the GM).

[LordBalkoth]

I'm fairly certain that in the 3.5e/PF ruleset the Max Dex variable is indeed implemented and is used to calculate AC.

I can confirm it is definitely used. Setting a character's Dex to 50 (+20) versus 20 (+5) doesn't change the AC if the Max Dex is 5 or less...unless you add the Dex via an effect.

[Callum]

A workaround for this is to adjust the PC's Dex directly, and use an effect in the Combat Tracker to track the duration, adjusting the Dex back manually when it expires. You'll also need to check that the Dex adjustment isn't stacking incorrectly with any other effects.