Is It Possible to Improve the LFG Forum?

[LordBalkoth]

Right now a GM has to parse out LFP threads to find players (though usually games fill up even without doing that) and players have to deal with other LFG posts while trying to find games. Is it possible to make those into two forums, at least? And/or make specific forums for certain rule systems? So many games are not on the game calendar and the FG just seems to lack a good way to find what you're looking for easily. I mean, I prefer FG to Roll20 (and own the Ultimate License and am currently GMing two games on FG and none on Roll20) but Roll20 has a much better "find group" interface for players. Like, insanely better. Is this something that can be improved? Or am I missing features?

[Answulf]

I've used both quite a bit over the past few years, and I find the easiest method to be exactly the same on both sites: I post my game in the LFG forums with the details, and in a day or two I have a waiting list of players. :)

I can't imagine a GM having any problems finding a game on either site.

[LordBalkoth]

Yeah, same here -- like I said, I'm running two games.

But I'm also trying to find a game to PLAY in...and holy cow is that harder with the current set-up.

[Answulf]

I don't see the game calendars being much different on the sites, though. I think it's just the sheer numbers at Roll20 that shows more games. I agree it is easier to find a game on Roll20 (although I also think the success rate is a lot lower), but I don't think it's related to the website interfaces. I'm not saying the calendar couldn't use some improvement, just that it's not the main reason it's easier to find games at Roll20. But that is just my opinion.

[LordBalkoth]

People aren't putting games on the game calendar here. They're posting in the LFG forum as threads -- but the calendar is also in GMT. Which means my game at 8 PM EST for Wednesday night...shows up on Thursday. Which doesn't help. Aka, the Calendar is not very good here : /


(although I also think the success rate is a lot lower)

You can say that again...had four campaigns fall apart on me there.

[Ken L]

The LFG Forum is very old, and I agree that a system akin to Roll20 to find X game type in Y timezone that are open is desirable. It's not really a problem for myself as I sparingly make any postings unless I'm hosting in an odd timeslot (like Sat 9am -> 5pm EST). When I'm hosting in prime-time, I don't really have an issue finding players from my network.

As a player, I don't really do online as I go to my local FLGS where I occasionally play in a few encounters with the store GMs. I also run encounters there. However I can see how it's off putting for newer FG players as it's archaic and dated as when I was first trying VTT, I started on r20 to find a game. Nowadays I mainly host and help others sit the GM saddle. I don't think I'd be in the VTT arena if I had to do as much hunting as is required in the forums. New players, especially in the late HS or College age category have low attention spans so finding something quick is ideal. I wouldn't disregard them though, as a good number are great role-players but don't enjoy the long setup that forum based recruiting requires; not to mention I got my start in college 6 or so years ago.

It's really a matter of modernization, here's hoping the development team make approchability in the area of recruitment a priority. The easier it is to find and index games for new players, the larger the player base will become. As far as I can tell, the typical FG player is usually a veteran of the genre, there aren't nearly as many experimenters. That's partly due to the paywall but can be alleviated by introducing a 'guest' slot on each license to let them get a feel for games which could potentially grow into a license purchase so said player wouldn't be limited to filling in a guest slot. The other half is the dated LFG and connection model compared to specify search->choose->apply. Currently it's search->apply where 'search' is several pages of games and posts of people wanting to get into games.. and how viable games might be buried by newer postings. Games can take 3/4 weeks to fill as the GM decides on his/her players.

[GunnarGreybeard]

People aren't putting games on the game calendar here.
Not sure I agree with that totally with that part. I have run multiple games here for years including the 2 active ones atm and all of them are on the calendar but they are not visible because we are full up. They are set to 'hidden' because I would rather not have to wade through all the join requests from people who have no intention of ever showing up, they just sign up for every game they see listed there. I suspect it's similar with many other GM's.

That being said, any changes that would allow for more people to get into games is fine with me.

[LordBalkoth]

As far as I can tell, the typical FG player is usually a veteran of the genre, there aren't nearly as many experimenters. That's partly due to the paywall but can be alleviated by introducing a 'guest' slot on each license to let them get a feel for games which could potentially grow into a license purchase so said player wouldn't be limited to filling in a guest slot.

Well, I guess I'm not typical :P

Also, if the GM has the Ultimate License (like I do), then people can join with the free trial. Not saying that's perfect but...


Not sure I agree with that totally with that part.

Go ahead and check January for Pathfinder games. There's one listing for the whole month for Wrath of the Righteous. I've seen at least four other Pathfinder campaigns looking for players...that simply aren't on the calendar. People just don't bother, they rely on the forum thread because the calendar is limited and only in GMT.

[irish_carbomb]

As a fairly new player to FG, I have found it very difficult to find games. Now let me preface that by saying I am hosting a game, that filled up in about 2 hours. As for finding a game as a player it is very difficult and frustrating I think. Both here and Adventure League. The games pop up and they are full/overflowing, or the calendar shows them on the wrong day because of the GMT thing. I have also had a lot of issues with just plan bad games or was signed up and then the DM flaked out.

I think with a little clean up, in the forum, and tune up the calendar things would be much easier. I also think we need more DM's. Which is obvious if a game fills up in hours..

[Trenloe]

I've seen at least four other Pathfinder campaigns looking for players...that simply aren't on the calendar. People just don't bother, they rely on the forum thread because the calendar is limited and only in GMT.
FYI - there are two parts to the Game Calendar. The "GMT" portion you mention will only show games where the campaign has set specific date/time for the next upcoming session. Many GMs who are looking to get a game off the ground will create a calendar entry but won't put the first session in the campaign until they've had an agreement with the players. At this point the campaign the players have signed up to will show the game in their local time zone, but the game calendar will still show GMT.

Click the "Manage Campaigns" link in the top left of the Game Calendar to see the whole list of campaigns: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/calendar/

I agree that it would be nice for the game calendar to show time in the local user's time zone and also that more GMs use it - the latter is the difficult part, it relies on the GM (and to a lesser extent the players) to enter the details of their campaign. Sometimes they just handle it outside of the game calendar because they're more comfortable communicating and organising that way, or sometimes they don't put a time in the campaign because they haven't decided on a time yet, and when they do it's because they already have the players needed and so the campaign is marked as not looking for players and so is hidden from the public view.

I'm wondering - does roll20 force you to enter a date/time on the LFP portal (or whatever it's called), or can you put an entry there without the date/time? If it's the former, then that explains why there is a lot of entries there, and also explains why a lot don't happen.

[irish_carbomb]

The problem with the Manage Campaigns portion of the Calendar, is that it is way out of date. There are a lot of games listed there, that never got off the ground, or are over.

[LordBalkoth]

I'm wondering - does roll20 force you to enter a date/time on the LFP portal (or whatever it's called)

Yes (https://app.roll20.net/lfg/search/). Enter the game system, keywords (if applicable), and choose relevance or starting soon...presto, you have an easy list. And then clicking on a campaign leads to a nice page where the GM can put a lot more information in a better format than FG's calendar. Which is unfortunate because I think FG is the better system. But right now I find it easier to present information to prospective players in a forum post...which is then a nightmare for players to try to search through.


I think with a little clean up, in the forum, and tune up the calendar things would be much easier. I also think we need more DM's. Which is obvious if a game fills up in hours..

Agreed on both parts. I started running a second campaign because I couldn't find one to join and saw many other people looking for games.


The problem with the Manage Campaigns portion of the Calendar, is that it is way out of date. There are a lot of games listed there, that never got off the ground, or are over.

Indeed. Like, people, just go to the Roll20 site and attempt to search for a game, look at how much easier/cleaner it is. I wish FG had that. And I'm not even involved in any Roll20 games (tried a few when I couldn't find any FG games but they all were terrible and/or collapsed) while I'm involved in three different FG games (GMing two, playing in one).

[Trenloe]

Yes (https://app.roll20.net/lfg/search/). Enter the game system, keywords (if applicable), and choose relevance or starting soon...presto, you have an easy list.
Thanks for the info, I wasn't clear in what I was asking. When a GM posts a game as LFP do they have to enter a date/time or can they enter basic info without a date/time?

[LordBalkoth]

They have to enter a date/time. That's why I quoted that specific section and said "yes."

[Trenloe]

They have to enter a date/time. That's why I quoted that specific section and said "yes."
OK, thanks - sorry, I thought you were only referring to the player entering a time to search, not the GM being required to enter a date/time when they create a game. Sorry for the confusion.

So, getting back to my point around this. If a GM who is looking for a game is forced to enter a date/time, even when they are flexible when they can play, then this is in itself an issue and explains why a lot of roll20 games don't happen. There are two extremes - the FG way where the GM only posts a date/time for a game that is more than likely going to go ahead, or the roll20 way where a GM is forced to select a date/time before they know if anyone is interested. The FG way makes it look like there are very few games happening, the roll20 way makes it look like there are lots of game (but many don't actually happen).

I know it's frustrating either way. But, from my point of view, I'd rather get frustrated when I see hardly any games with dates/times advertised, but when I do (finally) find one it has a good chance of happening. I'd get even more frustrated if it was super easy to find a bunch of games advertised at a specific time and I sign up for a game, make the effort to be online for that game but it has a good chance that it won't happen.

I know there can be some improvements to the FG side. Advertising a game is up to the GM - there is no forcing them to pick a date/time when they start looking for players, this gives the GM more flexibility to find players, discuss campaign options and play times and then only post a game calendar entry for a date/time when they have decided on their first session and if they are still looking for players. This is much more flexible and ultimately less frustrating in the long run - there is more player frustration up front trying to initially find a game time as it appears there are few available and they have to search through the forums.

[JohnD]

The problem with the Manage Campaigns portion of the Calendar, is that it is way out of date. There are a lot of games listed there, that never got off the ground, or are over.

I've been hitting this point for 2+ years and nothing had really changed.

[damned]

Calendar entries will always end up getting abandoned John... if its always happened it likely always will.

Online gaming is very different to in person gaming in terms of how people (players and GMs) seem to treat the commitment. When you agree to meet people face to face you tend to be far less likely to ditch on them without notice. Online it seems that it happens a lot until it doesnt. By that I mean that players and GMs that have been around longer tend to be more reliable (but not always). But that also doesnt help new players because established groups of reliable GMs and Players are exactly that - established and not recruiting. Its great when you land in a group that works well and full of people who can make and keep commitments but for many that takes time.

Many times Ive posted suggestions -
Play one shots - you meet other players and GMs and this has the potential to lead to more games later - people like to play with people they like.
Visit the site everyday and APPLY dont just tell the worls you are available, tell every damn GM who might be listening.
Seriously consider joining a game that plays a different system to the one you are really interested in if its timing still works for you. Many groups play lots of systems. Many groups rotate through different games. Many groups contain more than one GM.
Participate in FGCon and FGDaze.
If you are only available on Tuesdays between 7 and 10 and only want to play one system you just made it soooooo much less likely that you will find a game in any sort of hurry.

The world needs more GMs. This will always be true. If you really are committed to getting some FG gaming in, and you have done all that above - consider starting a short campaign or one shot. Seriously consider it. I dont care if you have never GMd before. Every GM has more to learn, every GM can still improve their game, every GM has good moments and not so good ones. Just bite the bullet and try it. Get a 3 hour Adventure League module and run that (not as AL) with pre-gens. Get a short module that might take 6-12 hours to run through and do that. Tell the group your new, your learning, this is expected to be a 2 or 4 games long and then you would love to swap the GM role. Seriously if you have a group of 6 people and you each ran something for 4 sessions then each of you would deliver 4 sessions and play in 20. How is that for return on investment? Oh, you will also meet a bunch of flaky gamers along the way, they will be all fired up and just disappear along the way but you will also meet some really good ones too and make some good friendships.

[LordBalkoth]

But, from my point of view, I'd rather get frustrated when I see hardly any games with dates/times advertised, but when I do (finally) find one it has a good chance of happening.

For the record, I've played two FG campaigns both of which ran to completion and I'm running two FG campaigns. All four were advertised for a specific day/time.


This is much more flexible and ultimately less frustrating in the long run - there is more player frustration up front trying to initially find a game time as it appears there are few available and they have to search through the forums.

It's not a matter of "appearing" to be few available -- there ARE few available. I've gone through and searched the forums -- and I think the lackluster advertising system doesn't help prospective GMs.


If you really are committed to getting some FG gaming in, and you have done all that above - consider starting a short campaign or one shot. Seriously consider it.

And if you've done that too? Hell, I started another LONG campaign, not even a short campaign or a one shot.

[damned]

And if you've done that too? Hell, I started another LONG campaign, not even a short campaign or a one shot.

I was the only GM in my group for almost 4 years. Now there are 4 active GMs. Sometimes people get lucky and things happen the way they want them to quickly. Sometimes its completely the opposite. My response isnt targeted at any one person (other than the reply to JohnD).

[Hurske]

I think one of the steps that could help, would be to add a sub forum for individual rulesets, that would at least be a step in one direction for organization.

By far, the most popular system is 5E, if it had its own LFG sub form, players looking to find Savage Worlds or Pathfinder would be a lot easier.

[LordBalkoth]

I think one of the steps that could help, would be to add a sub forum for individual rulesets, that would at least be a step in one direction for organization.

Indeed. That's one of the two suggestions I made in the OP (the second being splitting LFG/LFP into two forums).

[Myrdin Potter]

I posted that I was starting a new 5e campaign and had filled my six players in hours and then even more players came and asked to join.

It is the same for AL Online and my whole in person gaming time - DM's are always in high demand.

I was able to fill my original 6 person game with old friends I used to game with. That also was remarkably easy to get off the ground.

For the game I am starting up, 100% of the players are new to me. I am actually going to "accept" the next two as alternates as I know getting people to show up consistently can be difficult.

[Trenloe]

For the record, I've played two FG campaigns both of which ran to completion and I'm running two FG campaigns. All four were advertised for a specific day/time.
Well done! Sounds like the system's working then. ;) As I mentioned above, as the FG game calendar doesn't force the GM to enter times, when they do it is usually because they've already discussed with some of the first players to respond and have decided on a time, or they are sure of the time from the start and will stick to it. As roll20 forces a GM to enter a time, if they're not sure they still have to enter something and so can be totally inaccurate relating to what the actual session time will end up being.


Indeed. That's one of the two suggestions I made in the OP (the second being splitting LFG/LFP into two forums).
I think that could be a good idea to try. Would you be willing to work with the forum administrators and get all of this setup and then check into these forums to keep them moderated (posts in right place, guidance for GMs/Players to post the right information, cleaning up old threads)? It's a serious question - because that is what it's going to take to make this work.

[damned]

I think one of the steps that could help, would be to add a sub forum for individual rulesets, that would at least be a step in one direction for organization.

I understand why this is suggested but in my opinion this will simply lead to less games being played and less players playing games.
Your looking for a D&D 5e game and someone posts a Castles&Crusades game and its in the perfect timeslot for you and the story they are playing is perfect and its with a bunch of players of similar age and maturity.
You will never even see it.
And the C&C group will miss out on the potential recruits from 5e.
Swap the ruleset/genre for any other. Deadlands, Rippers, GURPs, 3.5e, Dungeon World, Trail of Cthulhu, ShadowRun, Savage Top Secret, Call of Cthulhu, Pathfinder, Dungeon World and the list goes on and on.
You might not even know about a game system and yet when you see its description it sounds like fun. But you would never even look at that subforum because you are sure that the only thing you want to play is 5e between 6 and 10 on Thursday or Saturday. And you just missed two games that run in that time because they werent 5e. Or this week your schedule was different and you were available Friday and there is a one shot in a system you dont want to campaign in but hey look at the other players and that looks like fun...
Im not saying there arent other ways to do this or that this cant be done better but I dont believe fragmenting the posts will achieve the outcome you want.

[Myrdin Potter]

I agree that one forum is plenty. No need for one for each ruleset. You never know, you might suddenly decide to try a new rule set.

The calander is not the easiest to use. I set it up and manager to get to work but I am still not 100% certain if it exactly as it should be.

[dulux-oz]

It sounds to me like one of the best ideas is for someone to volunteer to "clean-up" the calendar of old/expired entries (as JohnD has suggested previously) - or for us to get it automated somehow.

The second thing is to realise that there will always, always be more players than GMs, so if people aren't willing to step-up and run a game or two themselves or too look at gaming a different system then perhaps the situation won't improve - and no, I'm not talking about that who are completely new to RPGs or those who can't - as opposed to won't - run a game. So its up to the individual - I know my games don't get advertised because I've got a stable group and a waiting list, and I suspect this is the same with most GMs.

So can the "system" be improved - sure! Will it be easier to get a game when you GM then when you play - absolutely! But are we here to role-play in the RPG hobby or are we here to play a single sub-set of the hobby and thus restrict our potential pool of opportunities?

As I sad: that's up to the individual - but as an individual what can I do personally to improve my chances of finding a game (rhetorical question)?

[Ken L]

The calendar/forum model is outdated, and cannot scale easily... Imagine for a moment, a good situation where there's a draft of new users. The calendar will easily become overwhelmed and the forum saturated. Relying of forum filtering options at that point is a poor man's ghetto solution.

The ideal approach is to make a search paradigm to find either X game type being run at Y time. That in itself will easily show players what games are open, and if the time slot fits. Players need not specify time in their search, but upon finding all GRUPs games for instance, they can see times on each posting to find a match for them.

Yes, there will always be more players than GMs, so making it easier to find games as opposed to sifting through several pages of forums or calendar entries makes it easier for new players to find others.

[Ken L]

There's also a number of old guard here I see whom haven't really tried other platforms. I suggest to them to try others to see why others like them as well as to keep a beat on the innovation front. There are clearly features that won't match FGs, but there are ideas that should be looked to as examples. Roll20's LFG is one of them, D20pro has an excellent Load on demand model, Skirmish has a great Fog of War implementation.

I believe that 'My castle is best' mentality is kinda what keeps the perception that FG is outdated from younger VTT users. A quick look at twitch's TTRPG streaming phenomena shows FG in the dust. Merely promoting FG streaming is one thing, making it easier for the new videogamer generation to jump in is called evolving with the times lest FG rely solely on old blood.

[Trenloe]

@Ken L - I don't think the majority of "the old guard" as you put it has a "My castle is best" approach to this. We are trying to discuss possibilities, find out how other systems work, and try to find a workable solution within the current environment. The fact of the matter is that Smiteworks have a lot of priorities on their plate and I very much doubt if there will be a major overhaul of the current game calendar/LFP environment as that could well be updated with the Unity system. So we're looking for good solutions with what we have now. This forum is very open to understanding how other systems work - we just don't clamour for significant changes all the time as we know that there are other development priorities currently.

[LordEntrails]

To try and help facilitate this discussion, I'd like to layout how I see this.

There are two ideas here to make getting GMs and players connected.
1) Re-organizing the forums.
2) Modifying the calendar function/capabilities.

#1 has the benefits of it is something that the community here can pretty much do on it's own. The downside is its debatable as to the effectiveness of such a change.

#2 is something the SW team needs to get involved in, and we all know their resources are limited. The good thing is I think everyone feels the calendar could be improved upon.

So, I suggest we consider both of these as separate approaches and discuss accordingly.

[Ken L]

In my line of work, you innovate, or you get out classed by the competition that do. That's just my 2 cents as FG has been using the same system for years.

The dirty solution here is to have seperate LFG and LFP forums.

[Hurske]

@damned yeah, I can see your point on that. I've had several players join my games because of that exact reason.

[LordEntrails]

In my line of work, you innovate, or you get out classed by the competition that do. That's just my 2 cents as FG has been using the same system for years.

The dirty solution here is to have seperate LFG and LFP forums.
Yea, innovation is key. I think SW has and continues to show that they agree with the need to innovate and it is priority for them. We, the community, just have to understand that SW is a limited resource. We can make suggestions for improvements and priorities, but ultimately, they have to decide what to implement and how to prioritize those changes.

I think we need to give them the benefit of the doubt that even if SW doesn't prioritize exactly how we would, history shows that overall, they have done an excellent job of making the correct decisions (both in what to change and their priorities). They also know more than we know about

That's why I thought it most useful to break this discussion up into two topics. One that we as a community can directly affect, and the other in which we can advise and then hand-off to SW to evaluate and prioritize.

Now, onto the suggestion on the first topic I specified, forums, I think separating the LFP and LFG forums might be the way to go. I think it avoids the issues with separating by ruleset mentioned earlier. I don't see any downsides, am I missing?

[Bidmaron]

I would argue you need several sub forums:
Players
1. Looking for Games: Players looking for one-shots
2. Looking for Campaigns: Players who want lasting, on-going series of games.
GMs
1. Running one-shot: Hosting a game with no on-going component.
2. Looking for party: GM trying to organize a campaign.
3. Looking for member: GM with established campaign who needs a new player.
4. (This should probably be on calendar, but since some folks don't like to use the calendar): Game notice: Where GMs with parties post their next session details for their players. THEY ARE NOT LOOKING FOR PLAYERS but might be open to observers.

Each of these are fundamentally different activities, and the sub forum for each should have as its first post a form that folks can copy and paste to fill out with relevant details. In the case of the GM subforms needing players, it would be courteous for the GM to edit his entry once his need is fulfilled.

[LordBalkoth]

Would you be willing to work with the forum administrators and get all of this setup and then check into these forums to keep them moderated (posts in right place, guidance for GMs/Players to post the right information, cleaning up old threads)?

Yes.


I think separating the LFP and LFG forums might be the way to go. I think it avoids the issues with separating by ruleset mentioned earlier. I don't see any downsides, am I missing?

Not that I see, hence why I suggested it in the first post. Can still easily look at the "other" forum when you want but significantly less clutter when perusing your "half."

[Answulf]

I'm not opposed to sub-forums and I agree the game calendar could use an update, but these are drops in the bucket compared to the age old problem of not having enough GMs for players.

The bottom line is that GMs on Fantasy Grounds still get their games filled quickly and easily - it's not like there are a bunch of games with empty spots waiting to be filled by players who can't find them because the game calendar is on GMT time or we don't have the right sub-forums.

A stronger system aimed at cultivating new GMs and linking them up with new players would be insanely more valuable than what's being discussed here - now that's something what we could really use a long thread of brainstorming on...

[Bidmaron]

Answulf, you miss the point that nothing will happen right now. This doesn't make the SW priority list right now. The sub forums are the best we can do in mid-term, probably until well after u=Unity release

[LordEntrails]

I think cultivating more GMs is something we can do w/o SmiteWorks needing to be very involved. I also think that laying out a plan or set of requirements for a new game calendar system (or something else) would be worth doing. Agree it might not (probably not) be something SW would be able to do anything with until after Unity, but it doesn't mean it wouldn't be of value to do.

EDIT: Correct a incorrect negative... in bold

[Answulf]

Answulf, you miss the point that nothing will happen right now. This doesn't make the SW priority list right now. The sub forums are the best we can do in mid-term, probably until well after u=Unity release

I'm a big picture guy. You guys are talking about ways to make faucets flow faster when there is a water shortage. That's my point.

Without an increase in GMs, all LFG changes are going to do is switch around which players find the game first - they are still going to fill up rapidly, there still won't be any change in the number of players who can't find a game, and there will still be just as many players complaining that they can't find a game. You could even make the argument that filling up games faster would make the perception of it being tough to find games worse, not better.

I'm just suggesting that if the caring, effort, energy and discussion in this thread were focused on cultivating GMs instead, the impact would be *much* more significant. A small increase in the number of GMs would be much more valuable than a bunch of new sub-forums which may not even be a good idea to begin with.

[dulux-oz]

Call me cynical (& I am) but my experience over almost half-a-century of life is that most people are "takers" and very few are "givers". What does this mean in terms of this thread? It means that most people would rather sit on their butts and have their entertainment handed to them (and take it all for free when they can) then actually step-up and do the slightly harder thing (but also the vastly more satisfying thing) of actually running a game!

Fine, not everyone can do it, and not everyone wants to do it, but in my mind I keep coming back to the old saying "put up or shut up". Want to play but can't find a game? Then you've got two choices: bitch & winge and blame everyone and everything, or step-up and run your own. Don't know how? Ask for help! There are innumerable people on these boards and elsewhere that will help you become a GM (or a better GM); Trenloe, damned, Doswelk, Moon, Doug, LordE - you name 'em - hell, I've written a blog entry or two about it myself, as have others.

OK, so the Calendar can be improved (no argument from me there) - get in and produce something better, or at least offer to Doug & Co to help out!

Don't like the way something is being done with the Forums - offer some constructive suggestions and then move on. Don't winge about it over and over again.

Think FG needs some improvement in a certain area - fine, make the suggestion in the Wishlist but don't go on and on constantly comparing FG with XYZ VTT or ABC VTT or whatever. If XYZ or ABC is better then FG then that's great - if you like it so much then you're free to go back to it.

Yes, your opinions matter! No, we don't want to hear them over and over again on the same topic - once (or twice) is more than enough. Even better are statements backed up with evidence (as an eg: I claim to be a Mathematician and ICT "Expert" (among other things) - and I've made my qualifications and experience publicly available for anyone who'd like to confirm that expertise), but even then don't harp on about it. Sure, bring it up if and when its relevant, but don't make claims that you aren't prepared to justify with some real evidence.

In short, share your comment/concern/suggestion/whatever and then either move on or do something constructive about it - "put up or shut up".

</rant>

(For the record: The above is NOT aimed at any one individual or set of individuals, but a general observation on the tone and contents of this thread and other, similar threads on these Forums. We've got a good community here, and one that I'd like see maintained and improved upon - remember: you have the right to your opinions and we have the right not to be bombarded with them. And yes, the irony of that last bit is not lost on me :) )

[Myrdin Potter]

I decided to run another game and it filled up, my games have been filling up since I started DMing when I was 13 and I am now just over 50. In all that time, there have always been more players than DM's. The licensing model for FG is the same as always for DM's, you pay for the rules and the access and they play (absolutely no different than dead tree playing).

I think the forums can be cleaned up a little, and probably that should be done, but I also urge people to give GMing a try. When games start struggling to fill then we can work on plan b...

[LordBalkoth]

Want to play but can't find a game? Then you've got two choices: bitch & winge and blame everyone and everything, or step-up and run your own.

I stepped up and starting running my own. Then I saw how many people were still trying to find games and started running a SECOND game. But despite now running two games, I would still like to find a new game to play in. So I guess I'll take choice three out of the two presented?


but I also urge people to give GMing a try.

Done!


When games start struggling to fill then we can work on plan b...

How about we look at plan b now instead, because it's an issue for GMs who would like to play in a game or two.

[dulux-oz]

I stepped up and starting running my own. Then I saw how many people were still trying to find games and started running a SECOND game. But despite now running two games, I would still like to find a new game to play in. So I guess I'll take choice three out of the two presented?

Fair enough - and thankyou for being part of the solution. Now if we could only encourage more people to do what you've done :)

[LordEntrails]

So now I see three things this thread is talking about.

1) LFG/LFP forum organization; discuss how the forums might best be organized and moderated to enhance the experience
2) Calendar/Game Finding; develop a proposal for SW consideration similar to a functional software specification
3) New GM development; determine how to increase the number of GM and games using FG

So, as Damned says, time to step up and volunteer to get the job done.
#1 & 2, not an issue for me and I don't have the experience using them to add much
#3 I would be glad to help with. I have too many project to offer to lead this though.

Any volunteers to lead one of these 3 possible efforts?

[Answulf]

#3 I would definitely be glad to help with as well.

[Ken L]

A stronger system aimed at cultivating new GMs and linking them up with new players would be insanely more valuable than what's being discussed here - that's what we could really use a Think Tank on...

I think adding a guest slot, would allow people who have never tried fantasy grounds before to take a swing on days other than FG con or daze. It also opens a single seat of 'ultimate' license for everyone which will allow more games to take in new comers to the hobby.

This would increase the pool of new blood of whom a good percentage may opt into a standard license to not be limited to the guest slot, and a fraction of which will jump into the GM seat. I myself have helped dozens of players get into the GM seat, and have encouraged many more to due the same. I've also developed tools to make it easier to DM on multiple platforms (r20,d20pro,here).

[Ken L]

Call me cynical (& I am) but my experience over almost half-a-century of life is that most people are "takers" and very few are "givers". What does this mean in terms of this thread? It means that most people would rather sit on their butts and have their entertainment handed to them (and take it all for free when they can) then actually step-up and do the slightly harder thing (but also the vastly more satisfying thing) of actually running a game!

I mainly GM so this doesn't really apply to myself, but the fact of the matter is that much of the new blood aren't able to GM and won't be interested in GMing unless they have a good experience with some encouragement. The issue of the LFG and new blood is that currently it puts more burden on the player to filter through a number of games. Rejection rate will be high, but if it is made easier to find other games, it lessens that pain for them.

Regarding 'takers' and 'demanders'. I work in FOSS so I've seen my code incorporated into corperate projects with cosmetic changes akin to plagiarism (replacing loop methods, or call names). Some even with the gall to re-release it under MIT despite my GPLv3 front and center. sure there's the SFLC, but you choose your battles carefully there. I've also contributed to a number of FOSS projects and guided new committers into the folds of Y and Z projects.

In FG, there's a bunch that cannot be done by extensions due to the limitations of the framework or lack of documentation, so some of these 'asks' are legitimate.

[damned]

Hey LordBalkoth - I hear you and it pains me when I see GMs looking for game and not finding them too. Ive seen the odd post from other long term GMs also looking for a seat at someone elses table. Once again there isnt an easy answer but one thing you might try is to go to each of your games and say - "In 5 weeks time Im not going to run a game but I still want to play. Id really like one of you to step up and run a one shot (or longer) session for the group." Do it every 4 or 6 weeks. If you are running a longer campaign and its end is in sight - advise the group that its one of their turns to run something/anything for 2 or 3 weeks while you prep the next campaign.

Oh and if everyone at the table doesnt have a license then the shiny new GM might have to go for a $10 sub for a month or the players might have to get a license. It wont be the end of the world but they might have to put some skin (time and money) in the game if they want to keep their GM from getting burnt out.

[Answulf]

Damned brings up a great point. The absolute best way to find a game to play in is to offer to run a game where the group will rotate GMs. In my regular group, everyone is a GM.

I've been playing online for a long time (Dulux - please see my join date for qualification! ;)), and one of the most important lessons I've learned over the years is that you don't really want the mindset of "I want to start a 5E campaign online" - you want the mindset of "I want to find a group of online friends that can all meet at the same time on a regular basis, and then play RPGs with them!"

[LordEntrails]

A first effort to contribute to #3, see; https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?36014-GM-Advice

Also linked on that page is one of the blogs here on FG that talks about recruiting for a FG campaign.

[Talyn]

you want the mindset of "I want to find a group of online friends that can all meet at the same time on a regular basis, and then play RPGs with them!"

Which is exactly why (so far) I only get to play during FG Con. My job negates the ability to meet at the Same Bat-Time, Same Bat-Channel on the same Bat-Night every week. And no one is willing (rightfully so, I can't blame them) to adjust their schedule every single week to match mine.

[Answulf]

Which is exactly why (so far) I only get to play during FG Con. My job negates the ability to meet at the Same Bat-Time, Same Bat-Channel on the same Bat-Night every week. And no one is willing (rightfully so, I can't blame them) to adjust their schedule every single week to match mine.

Ouch Talyn, sorry to hear that - it sounds like a tough situation for gaming. Here is what I would do if I were in your shoes:

I would start by running random One Shot adventures for a while to build up a network of players until I had maybe 10 or so I enjoyed gaming with. Then I would begin an episodic adventurer's guild campaign and invite all 10+ players to join! Each week I'd run a self-contained (thus the 'episodic' nature) short adventure on whatever random evening I was able to play because of my work schedule. Each character would need a reason they have joined the guild and the players that can show up on game night are the ones who's characters were able to make it to the local tavern guildhall meeting that week and go on that week's mission...

... something like that, anyway!

[Asterionaisien]

I would like to offer my two cents as non native english speaker.
I know very well that English is the "common tongue", but i think that this forum is short of an "other languages" section. At the moment I (personal opinion) feel like this forum is too much English-centric.
While many people know English enough to manage using programs or slowly translate stuff, not many others are confident enough to speak it while DM'ing or playing; this fact could thus actually reduce the number of games played because people cannot find someone else to play with without perceived hassles, and maybe even add the unfortunate consequence of less FG copies sold--in other terms people are not going to buy it if they cannot see someone else to play with.
My proposal then is to add another "other languages" subforum, with the most spoken languages within: chinese, arabic, german, french, spanish... and of course Italian ^_^

Another mayor topic is the forum layout. I hope, nor it is my intention or desire, that no one will take offense, but the forum layout feels old and ugly ,almost like a mid-'90 website (https://www.designjuices.co.uk/2011/09/web-design-evolution/).
I'm no web design expert, but i think something more fresh, akin to google material design or roll20 would be a big step ahead for the user'experience and smitework image.

I'm trying to offer constructive criticism, and sincerely hope everyone will take it as such. :)

[Bidmaron]

Languages sound like a good idea.
As for redoing interface ... if it ain't broke, don't fix it: that is my vote. Every time SW has to work a window dressing, we lose action on new program features and Unity.

[damned]

It is very true that these boards are English centric. They are almost English only.
It seems that most non-English speakers use local language rpg sites to organise their games.
I wonder if a section for specific languages would help - it would be good to see other language users actively using this site.

[LordEntrails]

It is very true that these boards are English centric. They are almost English only.
It seems that most non-English speakers use local language rpg sites to organise their games.
I wonder if a section for specific languages would help - it would be good to see other language users actively using this site.
We've got a lot of Australians and a few Scotts, they talk funny...

Would it just be LFG/LFP forums, or would a Tavern or Community page for other languages be beneficial or justified?

[Answulf]

We've got a lot of Australians and a few Scotts, they talk funny...

Would it just be LFG/LFP forums, or would a Tavern or Community page for other languages be beneficial or justified?

I was going to say these forums seem Aussie-centric to me!

I think other language forums are an excellent idea.

[damned]

If you did do other language forums I think a single LFG/LFP forum for each of the identified languages only. Until that forum started to get decent traction you would just be creating ghost forums if you create/replicate other forums.

I suppose being Aussie Centric is not a terrible thing... unless youre a kiwi.

[dulux-oz]

I was going to say these forums seem Aussie-centric to me!

Isn't that the case everywhere? - and as it should be! :p


I think other language forums are an excellent idea.

Seriously, yes, I think some non-English-centric LFG and other Forums are a very good idea as well!

[Asterionaisien]

Languages sound like a good idea.
As for redoing interface ... if it ain't broke, don't fix it: that is my vote. Every time SW has to work a window dressing, we lose action on new program features and Unity.

A third party could do it too, not just only smiteworks.

If you did do other language forums I think a single LFG/LFP forum for each of the identified languages only. Until that forum started to get decent traction you would just be creating ghost forums if you create/replicate other forums.



Yeah, that was my idea too. :cool:

[Zacchaeus]

We've got a lot of Australians and a few Scotts, they talk funny...

Why pick on poor Scott, I'm sure there's a few Bills and Johns too :)

[dulux-oz]

Why pick on poor Scott, I'm sure there's a few Bills and Johns too :)

You're not upset because you're from "The North", are you Zacc? :p

[Zacchaeus]

You're not upset because you're from "The North", are you Zacc? :p

No, I was just messing with LordEntrails since we are Scots not Scotts :)

[dulux-oz]

No, I was just messing with LordEntrails since we are Scots not Scotts :)

I always thought it was Scotch - but then again, that might just be because I just had one :)

[LordEntrails]

No, I was just messing with LordEntrails since we are Scots not Scotts :)
See how valuable this community is? I learned something new!

[Zacchaeus]

I always thought it was Scotch - but then again, that might just be because I just had one :)

Nope, as you have correctly guessed that's the drink. :)

[dulux-oz]

Nope, as you have correctly guessed that's the drink. :)

It was also a joke - although apparently not a very good one.

I'm actually of Scot heritage, so I was aware of the term :)

Cheers

[LordBalkoth]

1) LFG/LFP forum organization; discuss how the forums might best be organized and moderated to enhance the experience
2) Calendar/Game Finding; develop a proposal for SW consideration similar to a functional software specification
3) New GM development; determine how to increase the number of GM and games using FG

I'm willing to help with or lead #1.

Can think about 2, I do know how to program.

Only been GMing for three months so probably not a good idea compared to people who have been GMing for three decades.


I think adding a guest slot, would allow people who have never tried fantasy grounds before to take a swing on days other than FG con or daze.

That would be nice, yes, especially being able to set up a "Co-GM" position or something.


Ive seen the odd post from other long term GMs also looking for a seat at someone elses table

FWIW I've only been GMing for three months and only started the second game last week :P Of course, I've only been playing Pathfinder for maybe sixish months?

I did create custom content for both single player and multiplayer in NWN for over a decade, though, so I have experience designing stuff there which made it easier to try GMing. I remember reading something about how in NWN 90% of players just downloaded and played stuff, 9% of players actually left feedback/comments, and 1% of players actually made stuff. I figure the same general reasoning is true in D&D/Pathfinder overall -- a lot of players just want to play, some will offer feedback/input/etc, and precious few will create. Of course, the "good" news about FG is that you can run stuff other people made, which helps. Both of my games that I'm running are homebrew.

[Nulk]

Hi guys, I think this thread could provide a very positive outcome for the community, while I do not have the available knowledge nor time to assist I would like to add my support for these improvements. Keep up the positive work, and these discussions open, we need to do what we can to continually grow the community and provide tools that make it easy for new people to interact and enjoy this amazing community.

On a side note, believe it or not, part of this thread has also inspired me to start a second Gaming group, although I will not be able to provide the time to DM a second weekly game I think I’ll risk the wrath of she who must be obeyed and the whining of the cherubs/devil spawn (the persona my kids regularly flip back and forth from) and stretch myself to a fortnightly gaming session (I have proficiency with the survival skill!)

Nulk

[Trenloe]

So now I see three things this thread is talking about.

2) Calendar/Game Finding; develop a proposal for SW consideration similar to a functional software specification
I wouldn't start this unless the FG devs are open to the idea. I think they already have a lot of things coming down the pipeline and giving them a functional software specification might not be of much use to them, and to be totally honest, very presumptuous. I'd reach out the them via the support email address and see if this is something they are open to. No need to waste time putting something like this together if it isn't needed nor wanted.