Using Fantasy Grounds at the Gaming Table

[Prince Bertram]

Fantasy Grounds at the Gaming Table

I’m just curious if anyone else out there is using Fantasy Grounds directly at the gaming table, using their wireless network, as opposed to playing over the Internet?


Background– How Fantasy Grounds Solved My Battlemap Problems

You can skip THIS ENTIRE section if you want to get to the gist of the post

I’ve experimented over the years with many different methods of providing my players with battle grid maps for purposes of managing and visualizing combat action. From large paper or vinyl battle grid sheets, to magnetic dungeon tiles, to ink-jet printed tile maps assembled on foam board, etc.

Besides the considerable amount of work involved making the maps, there was always the “fog of war” problem – how to hide sections of the map and reveal those sections only as they become visible during battle or exploration.

Before I came across Fantasy Grounds, I toyed with the idea (as others have done) of spending big bucks on a digital projection unit and mounting it above (or below) the gaming table for projection of maps and grids. No – just too darn expensive!

The next thing I considered was that I could simply detach my flat LCD monitor panel from its base and lay it face up on the table. A flat 19” LCD would provide an adequate battle grid map service. Of course, one would want to cover the screen with Plexiglas or something before letting your players move their miniatures around its surface or draw spell effect areas on it!

Finally, I took a look at the Fantasy grounds demo. Here was the answer to all my battle grid map problems. All I had to do was connect my four players to my wireless network around the dining room table. So using a couple computers around the house, and with the addition of a few player supplied laptops, we were there. Nirvana!

End of Background

With the number of wireless networks and laptops in people’s homes, perhaps it is something Fantasy Grounds might want to emphasize a little more? Why limit yourself to using the program simply “on-line” when it can have numerous advantages right at the gaming table? Some of my observations:

• We have no need for the chat window for actual chats (although the "whisper-to-player" feature is useful) since we can play just as we always did. It would be nice, however, to be able to re-size the chat window or turn it off completely. We do use it for all our dice rolls, though, and by programming dice rolls with the hot-keys it can speed up battle resolution.

• Sharing player handouts is so much better now - everyone can see them at once - no passing them around. And it saves the trees!

• Support for sound effects and background music in Fantasy Grounds would be great. In this situation there are no bandwidth problems.

• My players are encouraged to ditch their rule books and paper and pencils completely. This is not only for practical reasons since space is at a premium, but with the availability of the in-game reference material and PDF versions of rulebooks and the SRD these things can be done at the computer. Much better, in fact, because of search features for looking up spell descriptions, etc.

• Updating character worksheets, handing out experience points, having the appropriate modifiers added and subtracted for you, they're all right there.

• But why does it have to stop there? Which brings me to...
<Begin> RANT

Not to offend anyone, but contrary to the views expressed on these boards, I just plain don’t get the argument that the Fantasy Grounds program is designed (and therefore limited in functionality) to be as close to the P&P experience as possible. For heaven’s sake why? Here you have a magic brain with 175 million transistors sitting in your PC and you’re not going to use that power for the sake of tradition? Or because “that’s the way we’ve always done it!”

I would love to see Fantasy Grounds offer more in the way of game, combat, and PC/NPC management to make the job of running the game easier. Yes, I know there are other programs out there to do that - DM Genie, e-Tools, etc. But I don’t want to use them! I want my complete D&D gaming experience centered on the Fantasy Grounds Program. I want it all in one place – and if I was emperor-of-the-world that one place would be Fantasy Grounds.

<End> RANT

Any way, keep up the good work – even in its present incarnation I find Fantasy Grounds essential, not only for over-the-Internet play, but at the gaming table as well!

-Prince Bertram

[rom90125]

Interesting thought Prince B. Your points are all valid, but I'm sure that there are those who look back fondly on the social interaction PnP D&D brings to the group. If you make your sessions FG-centric, then you lose some of the social interactions, unless you kludge a way to use the application as a manager, such as DMGenie.

[Prince Bertram]

If you make your sessions FG-centric, then you lose some of the social interactions...
None of the social interaction is lost at all - there are still 5 of us around the table role-playing just as we always have done for years. I still narrate the story, play the NPCs, and manage the game as I always have. And I've used a PC since the days of AD&D at the gaming table to help run the game - it's really no different than sitting behind the dungeon master screen during a P&P session.

In some ways interaction is BETTER - drawing on maps is infinitely easier (no bending over the table knocking over miniatures, no clean-up of dry-erase markers, etc.), visualizing combat is easier (drawing cones of spell effects with the FG tools, quickly drawing situation maps, etc), and player's can get a better feel for what I am describing if, when there really is a need, I can actually show them something in bright living color. :) And I don’t think many of us are playing D&D without the use of visuals – at the very least battle maps, miniatures, or player markers of some type.

So the traditional P&P story-telling aspects of RPGs is still alive and well— I don’t show visuals for everything. :wink: The DM is still speaking verbal descriptions and we are still all talking in dialogue. In other words, we still completely embrace the P&P aspect of leveraging the "the theater of the mind" but we are also leveraging the benefits of technology to enhance the P&P gaming experience. So what’s wrong with that?

If by social interaction you mean physically rolling the dice, or passing around handouts, etc. - well, yes we don't do that.

P.S. Oh, and finally I don't let the players surf the net or do non-gaming related activities on the computer during the game. :wink:

[Ilwan]

Personally I would have a hard time diving into a world of fantasy with 5 people sitting with their computers. I would become crazy as a DM when I am explaining stuff and my players would be looking at their screen for rules etc. I know it is the case when you play online, but I will try to create a mood around me, when I play online and because I only have the one screen to focus at. In the other situation I would prefer playing a computer game like NWN. I guess I am into the traditional style of play. I fear the times, when passing handouts around a gaming table become to much of an effort.

I also find visuals important and good, but imagination is better.
In our days, we get to much served by being the inactive recipient (now I get all hippie like - was not my intention....well maybe a little) :)

I still see many good points in your post and many of them would increase functionality of the software, but I understand why Smiteworks put their effort into other things, as I share their point of view of being as close to traditional gaming (in my sense) as possible.

(if you need a software for managing sounds at the gaming table try to take a look a www.rpgsoundmixer.com A version 2.0 is in the works).

[Prince Bertram]

Ilwan:

I hear what you're saying, and I certainly respect your view and the view of the SmiteWorks team on this issue. Although I would like, respectfully, to make a few rebuttal comments:


Personally I would have a hard time diving into a world of fantasy with 5 people sitting with their computers. I would become crazy as a DM when I am explaining stuff and my players would be looking at their screen for rules etc. ).
Actually, I've never experienced the problem you describe. Looking up rule questions only really happens, well, when we have a rules question. Just as you would have to do in a P&P game, when a difficult rules question comes up, you and your players might halt the action to all work on resolving the rules issue by consulting the core rulebooks. In fact, by using the computer, we actually have more time for role-playing because it is ever so much faster searching a computer document than leafing through a book or using a very inadequate index - if the book even has one at all. :) Of course, maybe I just have extra considerate players that are kind of enough to respect and listen to the DM when he is talking. :) And, as you say, what you describe would be more of a problem with on-line play since the pace of the game can be so much slower with everyone typing things...


I fear the times, when passing handouts around a gaming table become to much of an effort.

So do I, but again there are advantages to sharing handouts using Fantasy Grounds - being able to use full color without draining your inkjet color cartridges, being able to draw and make notes on the handouts, being able to share very large maps that might not fit on the table but can be scrolled on the screen, being able to actually FIND the handout you looking for you since it’s organized right there on the FG desktop, etc..


I also find visuals important and good, but imagination is better.

I could not agree more with this statement. I really haven't changed the way I describe the world and adventures using words -- so I don't pop up graphics for every single scene, encounter, or location. But sometimes it is great to be able to use Fantasy Grounds to show exactly what something looks like--for example there are several excellent Dungeon magazine adventures where IT IS necessary for the player's need to see a picture with intricate detail and so these Dungeon adventures includes the illustrations (which I simply scan using my scanner for use in FG.)


... but I understand why Smiteworks put their effort into other things, as I share their point of view of being as close to traditional gaming (in my sense) as possible.

...and, again, I certainly respect that approach, SmiteWorks has a perfectly acceptable vision for what they want Fantasy Grounds to do - and it does it better than any other program out there, IMHO. But I can still dream of FG being the ONLY tool I would ever need to run the game at the table OR on-line - even if that remains only a dream. :)


if you need a software for managing sounds at the gaming table try to take a look a www.rpgsoundmixer.com A version 2.0 is in the works

I’m glad you gave RPGSoundsMixer a plug. I absolutely LOVE that program and have used it for several years. The ability to cue up appropriate background music, environmental sounds (nothing like role-playing a storm when your actually hear the wind roaring around your table), and the occasional sound effect (bellowing roar of the dragon) is priceless. I am eagerly awaiting version two, but it was mentioned quite some time ago - and I've been waiting and waiting. In a way, it’s very ironic you even mentioned RPGSoundMixer- because using a program like this is certainly NOT doing things according to the traditional P&P way. :) And that sort of re-enforces my point - computers actually enhance the entire role playing experience - they do not distract from it! What I would love to see is something like RPGSoundMixer built right in to Fantasy Grounds - again one-stop shopping and easier game management - especially if you could tag things like sound effects and music to your FG storyboard and battle maps! Now THAT would be AWESOME!

-Prince Bertram

[Ilwan]

I’m glad you gave RPGSoundsMixer a plug. I absolutely LOVE that program and have used it for several years. The ability to cue up appropriate background music, environmental sounds (nothing like role-playing a storm when your actually hear the wind roaring around your table), and the occasional sound effect (bellowing roar of the dragon) is priceless. I am eagerly awaiting version two, but it was mentioned quite some time ago - and I've been waiting and waiting. In a way, it’s very ironic you even mentioned RPGSoundMixer- because using a program like this is certainly NOT doing things according to the traditional P&P way. :) And that sort of re-enforces my point - computers actually enhance the entire role playing experience - they do not distract from it! What I would love to see is something like RPGSoundMixer built right in to Fantasy Grounds - again one-stop shopping and easier game management - especially if you could tag things like sound effects and music to your FG storyboard and battle maps! Now THAT would be AWESOME!

-Prince Bertram

Yes, I must admit I am not completely old school. In normal one-night sessions I normally dont use computer. 3-4 times a year I go with friends to a cabin to play for 4 days in a row. There I use RPGSoundmixer at the gaming table. I have a laptop with me, but the screen is closed down and it lies under the table. I use a wireless keyboard to control it and players hardly notice me operating it, wasnt it for the sounds that come out of the speakers (cant forget the time I programmed it wrong a in a "tavern-mood" soundenviroment and there was a loud belch every 10 second). I agree that computers enhance the experience, when used with caution, but I still think they distract easily.

The soundintegration in FG would definatly be awesome. Smiteworks should hook up with RPGSoundmixer.

I read the development log (in german) of the soundmixer. I think the 2.0 is closing in. Hopefully they will promote it better, especially to the english speaking communities, than they did with the forst version. The software is underated.

[Snikle]

I do not RPG in PnP fashion any longer (move to much in the Army) so i doubt I wiould get an option to tes tthis out, but I think it would really add to the game. I love the fact that I can add things mid game and show my players.
This evening I ran a game and every major NPC the players met, I threw up a graphic of them, so the players could see who they were talkign to. Then mid game I realized I wanted to show another map as a reference when the players asked some unexpected questions. Since I do everything on this computer, I minimized FG for a sec, went in and copied that map to the images folder and voila! The players were looking at the map. My onyly complaint with FG is organizing, but that is partially my fault as I am just now learning to use modules (which rock btw). The ability to digiatlly show players data is light years ahead of describing it, and as they say a picture is worht a thousand words.

I fully support sounds in FG and hope it comes to pass.

[Kanati]

Using it at the gaming table for map and player handouts is EXACTLY and the ONLY reason I bought fantasy grounds at gencon. I asked the guy to show me a few things and one of the things he had up at the time was map masking... I didn't give him a chance to finish. "Ok, that's enough. I'll take it." Didn't even ask him how much it was. :)

One of the hardest things to do as a gm is to accurately and in a timely fashion, portray fog of war by revealing little bits of a dungeon or map... And player handouts that get lost or drinks spilled on them... thing of the past.

FG as a gaming aid in a regular pen and paper, with friends around a real table, is invaluable. Easily worth 10 times what I paid for it.

[Prince Bertram]

Using it at the gaming table for map and player handouts is EXACTLY and the ONLY reason I bought fantasy grounds at gencon.
I do hope the Fantasy Grounds program does go in a direction that leverages the power of the computer more, both around the table and over the Internet. Things like:

• Fully integrated combat management and PC/NPC generation so I can do away with DM Genie, e-tools, PCGen, or whatever.
• Light-source centered map concealment – only illuminated areas of the map are revealed and those areas can follow a light source token or character carrying a light source
• Support for sound: background music, sound effects tied to events, etc.
• Support for video: Be able to play AVI's, QuickTime or Windows Media Video for players to view
• Integrated tables: Make a roll and the result from a table is automatically generated for dragging to the chat window – say a table for a rogue’s “pick-pocketing” results – with the ability to add as many tables as you like
• and the Holy Grail – integrated voice chat

Wishful thinking I know...

-Prince Bertram

P.S. I know kloOge.Werks and GhostOrb are supposed to offer all this - but from what I've seen of the them - neither of them look as "friendly" and as unclutterd as Fantasy Grounds. I'd hate to run a game that had a player interface as "busy' as something like DM Genie, Microsoft's Visual Studio, or an illustrator-type program with all the palettes open! :D

[Spyke]

neither of them look as "friendly" and as unclutterd as Fantasy Grounds.
Losing the simplicity of the interface, and the way it replicates pen and paper gaming so well, is exactly why I fear the developers going down the route you suggest. To have a lot more features such as these you would need a lot more control menus, a lot more keystrokes pre-allocated, a lot more commands, and a much thicker manual.

Once you set foot on that route there is really no end to features, and so the program gets into the trap that there's always something new, so there's always something that's not bug-free, and the software is thus prone to crashing.

I switched to FG after using its heavily automated rivals for years because of its simplicity and beauty. I really don't miss having character sheets that calculate rolls for me, or allow the transfer of files and sounds.

Voice chat can be achieved already with superb quality using Skype. Having it integrated in the program wouldn't add that much, and would mean that the developers would have to become audio gurus (or buy the technology in).

I understand where you're coming from - you're describing the sort of software that I dreamed of years ago - but I think FG has shown us a different way. Let FG concentrate on what it is best at - representing the tabletop - and let other companies produce the best of breed audio application, etc.

Regards,
Spyke

[Prince Bertram]

Losing the simplicity of the interface, and the way it replicates pen and paper gaming so well, is exactly why I fear the developers going down the route you suggest.
That's a good point - I wouldn't want to lose the simplicity of the interface under any circumstances - at least not from the player's perspective. I think we all can agree we want our players focused on the game – not on an interface resembling the ****pit of a 767 Jumbo Jet. So I agree - FG developers please don't touch that!

From the GM side, I would be more tolerant of a more complicated interface. It seems to me that it would be no big deal to open a new window for the GM to manage PC, NPC, and combat situations. And I’m not ready to admit that a clean and simple interface is not possible for managing a complex game like D&D and the OGL. For proof, take a look at the absolutely gorgeous, stunning, simple, clean, and intuitive interface RPGXplorer (https://www.rpgxplorer.com) has come up with! What a true thing of beauty! I can even navigate the program without any kind of learning curve because it is so similar to how MS Windows works now. Compare THAT to the horrors of the e-Tools interface or the “busy-ness” and complexity of nearly all the other game management programs out there. I only pray that RPGXplorer follows through with the Fantasy Grounds XML export tools they've hinted at! Or better yet, merge the two applications - FG for the presentation layer and RPGXplorer for the "behind-the-scenes" game managment layer. Now that would be DM heaven...at the table OR over the Internet.


... so the program gets into the trap that there's always something new, so there's always something that's not bug-free, and the software is thus prone to crashing.
Based on the nasty and persistent problems we're having with the current Fantasy Grounds v1.05 version I, for one, CERTAINLY wouldn't want that! LOL :lol:


...to allow the transfer of files and sounds (and) having it integrated in the program wouldn't add that much
I do have to take issue with this. Certainly it would have no negative effect on the look of the interface in anyway. And as I pointed out earlier, integrating backgrounds sounds and sound effects can really add to the role-playing experience. Yes, I can still use RPGSoundMixer, but it would be so much easier if it was integrated directly into my FG game module with links in the appropriate story frames to the sounds and music I want to play at the appropriate moments in the plot. And what is so wrong with serving up audio and video – it’s not any different than serving up the visuals that FG does so well! Would any of us be using FG if it DIDN’T allow for the sharing of visual information? So why not sound or video?


Voice chat can be achieved already with superb quality using Skype. Having it integrated in the program wouldn't add that much
As far as integrating the voice chat features, it would give you some way cool options like "pre-recorded narrations" as part of the story frames or allowing the DM to change the pitch or sound of his/her voice in order to better play different roles (These last two things are being promised by GhostOrb in their RPG "virtual tabletop" experience – but look at how ugly and busy that GhostOrb interface is! Looks like an interface for geek engineers -- not for a regular "Joe" or "Jane" RPG player. It definitely is NOT a thing a simple beauty and elegance that Fantasy Grounds is.)


Let FG concentrate on what it is best at - representing the tabletop
Yes, FG does this well, but as I’ve pointed out in the previous posts to this thread, there is nothing wrong with using the power of the PC to greatly enhance the whole role-playing experience in a way that does not distract from it. It can be done!

-Prince Bertram

[Spyke]

And as I pointed out earlier, integrating backgrounds sounds and sound effects can really add to the role-playing experience
Agreed. When I was writing my reply this was the one part that made me stop and think. On reflection, I would like to be able to mix in sounds with the visuals, and I agree that this could probably be accomplished intuitively and without compromising the interface (though note others' comments elsewhere about not knowing what sounds/music the players have already running on their machines).

It's the integration of voice chat that I felt was unnecessary, and could be handled better by third party software.

Spyke

[Craw]

For proof, take a look at the absolutely gorgeous, stunning, simple, clean, and intuitive interface RPGXplorer (https://www.rpgxplorer.com) has come up with! What a true thing of beauty! I can even navigate the program without any kind of learning curve because it is so similar to how MS Windows works now.

$30 for a character generator?! Alkaven will have a heart attack and I'll agree with him here. Rules reference? Isn't the D20srd online for free? I don't get the usefulness of this product at any price. I must be mising something.

[gurney9999]

I don't think you are missing anything. While it may be a great product, I can't see a 'character generator' only product being more than only 15.00. Now once they get their GM Tools off the ground... if that can be purchased for the same 30.00, I could be persuaded to change my opinion.

[richvalle]

I think one of the things they are pushing is how easy it is to add/change things. Almost no one runs a pure by the book rules and some of the char tracking programs its tricky to add/change things.

rv

[Prince Bertram]

RPGXplorer Program


$30 for a character generator?! Alkaven will have a heart attack and I'll agree with him here.
Alkaven certainly has quite the "thrifty" reputation - so you're probably right about that. :lol:


Rules reference? Isn't the D20srd online for free? I don't get the usefulness of this product at any price. I must be mising something.
Well, addressing the merits (or lack there of) of RPGXplorer is a bit off the topic of this thread - my comment was geared to the clean and logical layout of the program's interface - not as to whether it would be worth a $30 investment. :)

0ne should not, however, be so quick to dismiss the program "as just another character editor" without first examining its merits. And it won't cost you a thing to do that as it is a free download.


I think one of the things they are pushing is how easy it is to add/change things. Almost no one runs a pure by the book rules and some of the char tracking programs its tricky to add/change things.
I think richvalle has the correct view of RPGXplorer -- its designed to be an extremely easy to use XML-based "rules" editor - not just a character generator. As stated on their website "you can edit rules pages or create new ones by integrating a HTML editor with RPGXplorer."


I don't think you are missing anything. While it may be a great product, I can't see a 'character generator' only product being more than only 15.00. Now once they get their GM Tools off the ground... if that can be purchased for the same 30.00, I could be persuaded to change my opinion.
As stated above, while I do think both of you are failing to appreciate the approach this program is taking, I do ageee the added functionality promised by the "RPGXplorer GM Tools" edition will make it a more attractive purchase. That is if it is not too much more expensive than the current $30 version.

- Prince Bertram

[gurney9999]

As stated above, while I do think both of you are failing to appreciate the approach this program is taking, I do ageee the added functionality promised by the "RPGXplorer GM Tools" edition will make it a more attractive purchase. That is if it is not too much more expensive than the current $30 version.I'll take a closer look at it, since like you said there is a free download version. If the rules editor is easy to work with I could definitely see a use for it. I just wish someone would build a full-fledged product instead of the normal double-dipping "Here's a great generator... maybe two years from now we'll charge you again for the campaign side of things."

[Syrovi]

One of the players in my group is disabled from the shoulders down. He cannot even sit up. He has to do everything lying down.

In his case, and maybe others in a similar situation Fantasy Grounds opened up the possibility of playing RPG's with friends.

For this reason, the development of additional functionality within one bundle will be appreciated. You do not have to use it if you do not want to.

One feature i saw on another system was the ability to reveal the map based on the light source carried by the PC.

That is one thing i think will be a usefull add-on

Just my 2 coppers worth...
:wink:

[Sigurd]

Interesting discussion.

Bertrum - I can understand your wishlist and its as valid as any. If the programmers could wave their hands and make all our wishlists come true....

Speaking only for myself, the problems I think are three fold.

1) FG does not want to present it self as being a replacement for standard gaming or arcade computer gaming. Right now it is a small niche player with freedom to do things from the D20 license. It dont think it wants to step into the bigger arenas while there are customers for its present niche and while it may not have the same freedoms there.

FG doesnt remove a need for the D&D rule books -- it has to present and support that element. Targetting an automated game table might not be a thing they want to be seen to do. Multi computer circles may combine online and face to face role playing successfully but I think this is too small a market to risk the bad blood FG might get from pen & paper suppliers IMHO>

2) Atmospheric stuff - Whatever Smiteworks can do easily would be great but I hope they don't spend much time on it. Computers and formats are always changing, codecs and media communications can be a high support issue and I think it would strategically a bad move. I would rather see them embrace a program like Teamspeak and free their focus for doing core game stuff well. Let a second applciation deal with that side of things. Between VOIPs (skype etc....) Google, Teamspeak and all the others there are much bigger programming houses looking at stand alone programs that users can use in addition to FG. I don't think they add much to the program by making their own clone of a free alternative.


3) Streamlined adventure applications is a benefit for DM's & module makers. I think the community can use a year to digest what the program can do now with the current features, once they all work :). Your wishlist is actually a compliment to the current interface because it shows how much you would like to integrate it further into your game experience. I don't think it is core (yet) because SM still has other elements to do.

Modules & Adventures: The traditional gaming module relies on rights from its publication license. While it would be possible for module to have a more inclusive atmospheric element I dont see it happening. I think module writers are at their limit in terms of permissions etc... and another element would be unwelcome. Module writers should concentrate on good stories and not worry about sound copyrights etc....



I would rather them spend more time on better documentation, bug fixes, and writing aids. Volunteers and users are carrying a huge amount of the customer support and training. Things are getting better (the updated demo was a huge improvement) but I think this is where SM should focus.

Patches, patches & more patches.
An online Help Wiki.
A discussion board that allows attachments.
A scripting manual.
A few Module writing competitions.
A bundling deal with Dunjinni, CC2 or Photshop.

These would all be my current focus if I was SM


Sigurd