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FXguy
November 26th, 2016, 01:48
Hi, gang.

I recently picked up the C&C rule books and Assault on Blacktooth Ridge to try out the system. When perusing the module, it seems that in area 30 (Treasure Room), the Ghost Naga does not have anything in its sheet for stats (it's an unlocked blank template). Does anyone know the stats for the creature, so that I may add them in manually?

Thank you.

EDIT: I have noticed that a few of the creatures in the module are blank, including the warhorse Hammerhoof in area 2, and the screechers in area 24. Do I simply have a corrupted version of the module?

damned
November 26th, 2016, 02:56
Id say something got messed up in a recent update. You might try deleting the module and re-running the update. If the issue persists log it also on the 3.2.1 thread. Ive run this before Im pretty sure its stats were present previously.

Varsuuk
November 26th, 2016, 03:03
I can verify this. I too just bought the Assault (and return to, though I notice 3 modules with Blacktooth in it... is one of them a second book for the other or did I buy 3 and forget?)


Sounds like I may need to postpone trying out FG with my reluctant friend until after more 3.2 growing pains are handled ;)
The good news is that if I convince him to switch to FG, we still have the XMas sale ahead to pick up the discounted game (and me pay the diff to get him Ultimate...unless I win that current contest! :) )

Varsuuk
November 26th, 2016, 03:04
Sorry Damned - didn't see your post until after I posted.

Yeah, I just checked it - opened it for the first time since it downloaded a night back from my recent purchase. I bought C&C about 3 months back but only just got the modules for it.

JohnD
November 26th, 2016, 03:35
Find the Monster in your M&T book and just drag it in as a short term fix.

FXguy
November 26th, 2016, 03:50
Find the Monster in your M&T book and just drag it in as a short term fix.

Aha, didn't think it would be in there, but it was! Good call, thank you.

Talyn
November 26th, 2016, 04:51
Sigh. Looks like we may have to do more remasters than planned...

Moon Wizard
November 26th, 2016, 06:28
I just pushed an update of A1-A3 along with Return/Back to Blacktooth Ridge modules to fix up any incorrect NPC links to M&T module.

Please let me know if you find any more issues.

Regards,
JPG

FXguy
November 26th, 2016, 06:48
Thank you very much, the update fixed them.

Varsuuk
November 26th, 2016, 07:31
Wow TALK ABOUT FAST...

Varsuuk
November 26th, 2016, 07:32
FYI ... huge TLG sale right now, though the 75% off is likely ending in 30 mins - Sat will be 50% off.

Talyn
November 26th, 2016, 12:09
I just pushed an update of A1-A3 along with Return/Back to Blacktooth Ridge modules to fix up any incorrect NPC links to M&T module.

Please let me know if you find any more issues.

Regards,
JPG

Wait, what?! They linked directly to M&T instead of having their own local copies of the NPCs? I thought that was a Bad Thing™?

Trenloe
November 26th, 2016, 16:47
Wait, what?! They linked directly to M&T instead of having their own local copies of the NPCs? I thought that was a Bad Thing™?
This isn't a bad thing at all, as it's linking to a standard module that comes with the base ruleset. This allows for any updates to the base M&T creatures to be automatically available in modules using those creatures (if linked to the M&T module).

Talyn
November 26th, 2016, 16:49
But if someone didn't own that module, they couldn't use it. I realize in this particular case, M&T comes with the ruleset but that's pretty much the only case in FG I can think of where that's true.

FXguy
November 26th, 2016, 16:57
Well, I did buy the C&C Ruleset, the M&T book, the Castle Keeper Guide, and the module, A1, so it worked out for me. Not sure if it would have, if I didn't buy the M&T book, though.

EDIT: The exact names of the items I bought were: C&C Ruleset, Castle Keeper's Guide, C&C Classic Monsters (I assumed that this is the M&T Guide), and A1 (the module).

Trenloe
November 26th, 2016, 16:59
But if someone didn't own that module, they couldn't use it. I realize in this particular case, M&T comes with the ruleset ...
That is what I was saying - in this case it is OK because the module is available to every GM using the C&C ruleset.


...M&T comes with the ruleset but that's pretty much the only case in FG I can think of where that's true.
Huh? There's plenty of rulesets that come with associated base library modules - 3.5E, Pathfinder, Rolemaster, Call of Cthulhu, 5E (the SRD and Basic Rules), Savage Worlds, etc., etc.. In fact, virtually *every* ruleset comes with a library module that contain data that might be desirable to be linked to from other modules.

There could also be the edge cases where products from the publisher link to large amount of details in other products - and in this case there would either have to be an agreement from the publisher to include that info in the FG conversion, or it could be linked to another FG product - but the additional product requirements have to be made clear in the product description page.

In database applications (FG stores all of it's data in a database) it's standard practice to link to base data records, rather than make stand alone copies of that base data in different places.

Talyn
November 26th, 2016, 17:42
I must have strange or unlucky buying habits then, because every single module I've ever bought has all the data self-contained...

Varsuuk
November 26th, 2016, 19:54
Well, I did buy the C&C Ruleset, the M&T book, the Castle Keeper Guide, and the module, A1, so it worked out for me. Not sure if it would have, if I didn't buy the M&T book, though.

EDIT: The exact names of the items I bought were: C&C Ruleset, Castle Keeper's Guide, C&C Classic Monsters (I assumed that this is the M&T Guide), and A1 (the module).

M&T comes with ruleset. Until this sale, all I had was ruleset. Came with that, M&T and A0.

Classic Monsters is an add on of "encounter", if I recall.

damned
November 27th, 2016, 00:07
I think that the Monsters ought to be included in the module too. I understand it makes no difference in this case but it still makes things clearer. You might not have loaded M&T for example, like you can run LMoP on 5e without any core rulebook or SRD modules open.

Trenloe
November 27th, 2016, 06:12
like you can run LMoP on 5e without any core rulebook or SRD modules open.
Actually, LMoP does require some modules open for full data access. The LMoP store page states: "Requirements: The 5E Ruleset and one of the following modules: D&D Basic Rules, D&D Comple Core Class Pack or D&D Character Customization Pack" There are a few things in LMoP that link to those mentioned modules.

Talyn
November 28th, 2016, 14:41
Actually, LMoP does require some modules open for full data access. The LMoP store page states: "Requirements: The 5E Ruleset and one of the following modules: D&D Basic Rules, D&D Comple Core Class Pack or D&D Character Customization Pack" There are a few things in LMoP that link to those mentioned modules.

The description might state that, but I'm not seeing anything that needs any of those modules. All NPCs, Items, etc. are contained in LMoP, as they should be. It's conceivable that the pregen characters may have abilities linked to one of them, but a) if I recall, the character export code converts everything to a self-link so you don't need the source module and b) you can only link to one of the modules, not all three.

On that note however, I could certainly see where it could be a good thing if there requirements they could be listed in the definition.xml and FG could pop a window reminder "This module requires blahblah would you like to load it?"

Trenloe
November 28th, 2016, 19:20
On that note however, I could certainly see where it could be a good thing if there requirements they could be listed in the definition.xml and FG could pop a window reminder "This module requires blahblah would you like to load it?"
http://fg2app.idea.informer.com/

Trenloe
November 28th, 2016, 19:24
The description might state that, but I'm not seeing anything that needs any of those modules. All NPCs, Items, etc. are contained in LMoP, as they should be. It's conceivable that the pregen characters may have abilities linked to one of them, but a) if I recall, the character export code converts everything to a self-link so you don't need the source module and b) you can only link to one of the modules, not all three.
For those GMs using LMoP, I'd recommend activating the required modules as listed. Just because Talyn couldn't find anything on a (I assume quick) look through within the FG interface, doesn't mean that these aren't needed in some records somewhere. Save yourself the hassle and follow the pre-requisite instructions.

Trenloe
November 28th, 2016, 19:34
a) if I recall, the character export code converts everything to a self-link so you don't need the source module
Nope.
1) Classes, backgrounds and races keep the original module link used to create them. As well as abilities, etc..
2) That's not how the pregens for LMoP are built - they require one of the modules listed.


b) you can only link to one of the modules, not all three.
Nope. FG has the functionality to link to a wildcard module name of "*" and FG will go through the relevant.

I'd recommend you try to believe what pre-requisites are listed in the product descriptions. They're usually put there for a reason.

Talyn
November 29th, 2016, 00:29
FG has the functionality to link to a wildcard module name of "*" and FG will go through the relevant.

Well, that's pretty slick then. I've never seen it done nor documented, and it's not like we get to view the 5E source to learn from it...

Varsuuk
November 29th, 2016, 04:14
The tricksey thing about using * is that what it matches (correct me if wrong please Trenloe) is indeterminate, it searches in some unspecified (to outsiders) order looking for a name match.

Trenloe
November 29th, 2016, 05:00
The tricksey thing about using * is that what it matches (correct me if wrong please Trenloe) is indeterminate, it searches in some unspecified (to outsiders) order looking for a name match.
It is a very specific database record reference - it's not just matching on a name in isolation. The module records have to be designed to allow this functionality to work - and the 5E D&D Basic Rules, D&D Complete Core Class Pack or D&D Character Customization Pack have been designed that way.

The record reference itself has to be assigned as looking for a wildcard module. So, this isn't something that happens by chance, it is by design.

Varsuuk
November 29th, 2016, 05:14
yeah, I was referring to when I was using my personal Parse tool, which at first I modeled using * in some places. It's been while, so don't recall a plausible example but: [email protected]* if there were two open modules with. reference_skill_myskill in their xml, it would match one, but I wouldn't know a priori which that would be.

That's far from being "random" - I just wouldn't know until I tried which it would find. Or am I remembering this all incorrectly?

Trenloe
November 29th, 2016, 05:22
It's designed so that the same record can be available in different modules - for example, allowing people to game with the Basic rules, the SRD or the full PHB references. Make your decision on which one you're going to use by the module you open. No need to open all of them.

It's more than just a single name/string. It's a complete database reference. For example, the "Acolyte" background in 5E is: [email protected]* So it's pretty unique.

But, yes, you can't control the order in which FG searches through the modules - so if you use module wildcards you should be aware of the implications. Keep the module records the same in each module if you can, and if license/product limitations don't allow that then be aware of which modules to load.

Varsuuk
November 29th, 2016, 07:33
OK - now that see acolyte, I remember it. Heh - Acolyte was one of my "reverse engineering" PAR5E tool test backgrounds. For the obvious reason.

I mentioned this because I am a coder, a coder of >20 years so I have developed healthy paranoia (with many BOOST_ASSERT(....); // should never happen comments to catch when my "never" is wrong ;) if those Trading System devs change their behavior without alerting me (used to be a bigger problem when we were not on same team and area)

I thought to myself... "reference.backgrounddata." that's going to be common. So, I develop a new background called "Town Drunk" and end up with the obvious entry:
reference:[email protected]*

Works great until in someone else's module there is hidden a darn dunkard of their own and WAAH FG likes them better than me :( and I pickup that Slosh's stats for MY charming Town Drunk background.

Yeah, I always think to what could go wrong. I spent a lot of time covering bases in my parser...probably needlessly, but last 12 years or so, my apps fail and my company may have to pay 6-7 figure penalties/recompense. *knock on wood* Only server in my area which has NEVER gone down or behaved incorrectly (past QA and internal BETA anyhow...) in last 3 years since my current exchange bought us.

damned
November 29th, 2016, 11:14
You would only use this method (@*) when you were coding for something that is likely to be found in multiple resources where its very likely the GM wont have all of them or have all of them open - like in teh very specific case of 5e where you have Full Licensed Products, SRD products and Basic Rules products all with overlapping content and completely conceivable for three different GMs to have three different sets of books opened.
Its really not useful for most other systems so dont waste too much time fretting over it.