AD&D Ruleset Progress

[vodokar]

I am going to split this off as a place for potential users to follow the current progress on the AD&D ruleset without having to wade thru discussions on coding that needed to be done in the other thread. Visit this thread to see what's going on.

This page last updated:

12/17/2016

Current Status:
Still being worked on.

ETA:

Working to release soon after first of the year.

Current ScreenShots
16955
16956
16957
16958

Character Sheet
Changed to GoldenRod color scheme and old school paper character sheet look inspired by old AD&D paper character sheets.

Saving Throws
All saving throws dynamically populate based on "class name" and "level" per the Saving Throw charts in the DMG.
All saving throws check for success or failure based on rolling equal or greater than the value of the saving throw target number.
All saving throws output to the chat in a user friendly format.
Saving throws have a mini-modifier box so that they can be adjusted by house-rule, magic or item effects etc. as needed.

Attribute Scores
All attribute scores are rollable to make attribute checks (for a rudimentary skill system).
Attribute checks check for success or failure based on rolling equal or lower than the value of the attribute score.
All attribute checks output to the chat in a user friendly format.

Strength
Strength has primary and secondary strength stat i.e. 18 (100).
Melee Attack "To-Hit" modifier, Melee Attack "Damage Bonus" modifier, Open Doors, Bend Bars /Lift Gates all dynamically populate based on Primary and Secondary Strength Scores per PHB.

Open Doors
Open Doors check rolls a d6 and checks for success or failure based on rolling equal or less than the value of the open doors target number.
Open Doors check output to the chat in a user friendly format.
Open Doors have a mini-modifier box so that they can be adjusted by house-rule, magic or item effects etc. as needed.

Bend Bars / Lift Gates

Bend Bars / Lift Gates check rolls a d100 and checks for success or failure based on rolling equal or less than the value of the Bend Bars / Lift Gates target number.
Bend Bars / Lift Gates check output to the chat in a user friendly format.
Bend Bars / Lift Gates have a mini-modifier box so that they can be adjusted by house-rule, magic or item effects etc. as needed.

Dexterity
Ranged Attack "To-Hit" bonus and AC adjustment modifier populate dynamically based on the dexterity score per PHB.

AC adjustment modifier
Feeds into the AC calculation part of the character sheet to cause AC to descend per PHB.

Constitution
HP Bonus, System Shock Survival and Resurrection Survival auto-populate based on the Constitution Score per PHB.

System Shock Survival and Resurrection Survival
System Shock Survival and Resurrection Survival checks roll a d100 and check for success or failure based on rolling equal or less than the value of the System Shock Survival or Resurrection Survival target number.
System Shock Survival and Resurrection Survival checks output to the chat in a user friendly format.
System Shock Survival and Resurrection Survival have a mini-modifier box so that they can be adjusted by house-rule, magic or item effects etc. as needed.

Combat

For Characters
PC Attack adds Strength To-hit modifier to the attack and Strength Damage modifier to damage for melee attacks.
PC Ranged Attacks add Dexterity To-hit modifier to attack.
When PC attacks, the PC Class and Level are used to determine the appropriate DMG Attack Matrix.
Target's AC (converted to Descending, if necessary) is input into the Attack Matrix and the Target Number that the PC needs to equal or exceed is outputted to determine success or failure.
Data is outputted to chat regarding Level of PC, Target Number vs. AC and Hit or Miss.
CT targeting and Drag and Drop targeting are both supported.
Double Click and Drag and Drop attack methods both supported.

For Monsters
Descending AC from PC character sheet converts into an AC Target Number and result of the attack against the PC is outputted to chat as a hit or miss.
When monster attacks, the Monster's HD is used to determine the appropriate DMG Attack Matrix.
Target's AC is input into the Attack Matrix and the Target Number that the monster needs to equal or exceed is outputted to determine success or failure.
Monster HD uses the format of n(dn+n) i.e. 1(d8+2) meaning 1 hit die which is a d8 and add 2 hp.
In accordance with the DMG, if the bonus hp are greater than 3, then the creature fights gets shifted by one combat level on the Attack Matrix i.e. a creature with 6(d8+6) Hit Die would have 12-48 hp, but fight as a 7 HD monster. This is done automatically.
Data is outputted to chat regarding HD of the monster, Adjusted HD if applicable, Target Number vs. AC and Hit or Miss.
CT targeting and Drag and Drop targeting are both supported.
Double Click and Drag and Drop attack methods both supported.

Defender's AC options
Different AC's for full AC, AC for situations when you don't get to apply dex mod (i.e. suprised or rear attack), and ac vs touch attacks (don't get to count your armor). Conditions for "No Dex" and "Touch" can be applied on the attack which changes the target AC that the attacker has to defeat.

Thieves' Skills
All thieves' Skills are added to the character sheet. Numbers auto-populate based on level of the thief and do not populate for those who are not supposed to have them. Skills roll the dice and tell success or failure.
All thief skill checks output to the chat in a user friendly format.
Thief Skills have a mini-modifier box so that they can be adjusted by house-rule, magic or item effects etc. as needed.

[Zhern]

Nice progress! I've had very little time to work on the Swords & Wizardry set so far. After 12/4/16 I should have time to devote to it.

[vodokar]

Added new functionality:

Combat

Descending AC from PC character sheet converts into an AC Target Number and result of the attack against the PC is outputted to chat as a hit or miss.
PC Attack adds Strength To-hit modifier to the attack and Strength Damage modifier to damage for melee attacks.
PC Ranged Attacks add Dexterity To-hit modifier to attack.

New Screenshot:

16645

As you can see in the chat, PC attacks are adding the correct to-hit modifier and the separate damage modifier.
Also, you can see that an attack roll against the PC of 13 (10 +3) was a miss vs AC 6, while a 14 (11 + 3) was a hit, as expected.

Still need to work in the DMG Attack Matrix for PC's; at this point, only strength modifier is being taken into account on attack rolls.
Still need to work on things from the npc point of view.
Still lot's of work to do, but things are rolling along.

[GainunX]

Can you clarify whether this ruleset is for 1E or 2E?

[GunnarGreybeard]

Someone will correct me if I am wrong but I am pretty sure this is intended for AD&D 1e (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?34976-AD-amp-D-Ruleset&p=300645&viewfull=1#post300645).

[vodokar]

That is correct. 1e. I'm too old to have played 2e. Started with original and moved to 1e. Do not own and have never read any 2e corebooks. I don't have any idea what the differences are. Not saying there is anything wrong with 2e, it just isn't what this project is.

AD&D is, by my calculation, going on it's 38th anniversary and approaching it's 40th in 2018, so I really wanted to do this project to revive that nostalgia.

Oh, and I should state this. Please do not take my statement that I don't know what the differences are between 1e and 2e as being a request for someone to list them. If you want to do that in a different thread, knock yourself out. I'm sure it would be an interesting read. But, please keep this thread for it's intended purpose: to discuss this ruleset and propagate news regarding it's progress for those that are interested.

[Axeking]

Just a tip to prevent future confusion - you might want to rename this thread as "AD&D 1st Ed Ruleset Progress".

:)

[vodokar]

I didn't do that because it seems very obvious by reading the thread and looking at the screen shots which game it was intended for.

Aside from that, the name of the game was Advanced Dungeons and Dragons. There was no such thing as Advanced Dungeons and Dragons 1st edition. Look at the book covers. No 1e. No 1st edition. No First Edition. Now, if I were making a ruleset for Advanced Dungeons and Dragons Second Edition, then I would most certainly include that, because it is the name of the game. Not trying to be a smart-***, but it's true.

The other reason is that I want to be inclusive. I don't know if this would be of use to someone to play 2nd edition, but possibly it might be. If that is true, then it doesn't matter what I have called the thread. Nor am I saying that down the road, I might not be able to take feature requests to allow it to cover the 2nd edition of the game also. As long as it's something I could add that doesn't completely change the functionality of how the AD&D game works, then it is possible to add things to support 2nd edition. But, that is down the road, and please don't expect for me to go out and purchase and read the entire 2nd edition core books in order to do so. If it's something that can be added to the character sheet, there will likely be plenty of room to put it once I remove some of the C&C specific stuff from it. Perhaps I could even add an option switch to allow some modification to the behavior of the combat or something. Things like that could be discussed down the road.

But, for right now, I would like to maintain the focus on the original game that was written by E. Gary Gygax and put it in the spotlight like it deserves to be. Fair enough?

[Myrdin Potter]

You are arguing about editions instead of writing your lovely code.

:-)

(And I agree, I started with AD&D and there is no edition for that ;-p )

[vodokar]

Plenty of code being written, my friend. And not edition arguing, just making sure that the original AD&D game and original author and father of our hobby E. Gary Gygax get their chance to shine.

Once that is accomplished, then discussion can be opened about possibly meeting the needs of all AD&D players, which would include 2nd edition, if possible. If it is possible to do that without requiring a complete re-write or re-wiring of the ruleset, then I am open to it.

While I don't know all the particulars, I don't believe there are really that many differences between the two editions. As example: The thaco equation is derived from the AD&D combat tables. In order to make it into a mathematical equation, they needed to take out the repeating 20's in the table and shift everything, but, nonetheless, it didn't come from nothing and it isn't really that different (different enough from a game purist perspective, but not from a coding perspective). I should be able to make an option switch that can divert the code from doing combat table lookups to using the thaco equation. In theory, that shouldn't be too hard to do.

So, while my game of choice is still AD&D, meaning the original version of the game, that doesn't mean that I am not open to addressing the needs of 2e enthusiasts. I will need someone that is an expert with those rules to step forward as an advisor to help me determine what would need to be added. As I said, I don't mind doing the extra work, but don't expect me to pay for rulebooks that I will never use just so that I can accommodate the request.

[Lothyr]

Looking good Vod. Fantasy Grounds recently came on to my radar although I have not gamed in a long time. Similar to some others here I began my AD&D journey many many (many) moons ago via a now fuzzy path of Basic, 1e, 3.5 & some other variations I can not recall. Not sure why but AD&D will always be the version I cleave to for tabletop gaming although I dabbled in other versions because the rest of the world moved on while my gaming did not (school/work/moving up&down E. Coast, etc.).
Long story short-keep up the good work-maybe your mod will pull in some more dinosaurs like myself ?

[LordEntrails]

@Lothyr, Welcome to FG and the community. We always enjoy more dinosaurs around here!

[vodokar]

That's why I do it, Lothyr. I'm hoping to get more of the old school guys involved in Fantasy Grounds. That would be a good thing.

In general, I don't think we've had a time that is better in Fantasy Grounds history. There are more actively supported and stellarly done rulesets now than we ever have had. But, we were kind-of lacking in the old-school department. There were attempts made back a few years ago to do OSRIC, AD&D and AD&D 2e, but they weren't really completed and then got abandoned. C&C was pretty much the only viable choice. It's a great game. But, I really wanted to see some more options come to fruition. Then Leo Zelig stepped up and did a stellar job on the DCC RPG ruleset. That kind of gave me hope. So, I talked myself into gettin' in the game and help forge the future of Fantasy Grounds. I'm so glad I did. It's been a wonderful growth, though painful at times.

I will definitely be actively supporting the AD&D ruleset for years to come. And there are plenty of possibilities for 3rd party AD&D compatible modules out there that we might be able to get permission to do.

I also have a couple of ideas for follow-on projects after AD&D is released. I'm still planning to convince the owner of Astonishing Swordsman and Sorcerers of Hyperborea to allow a licensed and officially supported ruleset to be done. I'm pretty sure that I can convince him. But, if not, then I can always do a community ruleset for it.

I was also thinking of possibly doing Metamorphosis Alpha. Wow, there is a blast from the past. It probably wouldn't get used much, but, you never know. The main thing though is that I am trying to use these projects to help my son get some experience with coding. While I have done almost all of the coding of AD&D thus far, I have been teaching him along the way and trying to get him more involved as I go. For instance, I'm about to go tell him that he is going to be the one that tackles the Thieve's Skills section of the AD&D character sheet. So, a project like Metamorphosis Alpha might be done simply to give him a project to work on.

Oh, and welcome.

[Myrdin Potter]

I banged at the ruleset some this weekend and basic operations did not break it. I am now going to try levels and ability scores that do no make sense and see what happens there.

[vodokar]

Super! Break out the Dynamite and see if she holds up.

[GunnarGreybeard]

Man, I'm going to have to dig out my old books (actually pry them outta my kids hands because they love reading through them) and get re-acquainted with 1e so I can help out. I started that version back when it first came out but moved on to other systems like Rolemaster and Harnmaster when 2e came out.

[vodokar]

Updated Progress:

New Combat Functionality:

Combat

For Characters
PC Attack adds Strength To-hit modifier to the attack and Strength Damage modifier to damage for melee attacks.
PC Ranged Attacks add Dexterity To-hit modifier to attack.
When PC attacks, the PC Class and Level are used to determine the appropriate DMG Attack Matrix.
Target's AC (converted to Descending, if necessary) is input into the Attack Matrix and the Target Number that the PC needs to equal or exceed is outputted to determine success or failure.
Data is outputted to chat regarding Level of PC, Target Number vs. AC and Hit or Miss.
CT targeting and Drag and Drop targeting are both supported.
Double Click and Drag and Drop attack methods both supported.

For Monsters
Descending AC from PC character sheet converts into an AC Target Number and result of the attack against the PC is outputted to chat as a hit or miss.
When monster attacks, the Monster's HD is used to determine the appropriate DMG Attack Matrix.
Target's AC is input into the Attack Matrix and the Target Number that the monster needs to equal or exceed is outputted to determine success or failure.
Monster HD uses the format of n(dn+n) i.e. 1(d8+2) meaning 1 hit die which is a d8 and add 2 hp.
In accordance with the DMG, if the bonus hp are greater than 3, then the creature fights gets shifted by one combat level on the Attack Matrix i.e. a creature with 6(d8+6) Hit Die would have 12-48 hp, but fight as a 7 HD monster. This is done automatically.
Data is outputted to chat regarding HD of the monster, Adjusted HD if applicable, Target Number vs. AC and Hit or Miss.
CT targeting and Drag and Drop targeting are both supported.
Double Click and Drag and Drop attack methods both supported.

Bold New Look

Character Sheet
Changed background color to Black and frame color to Reddish Orange. Color scheme to be reminiscent of the PHB.

New Screen Shots

16788

16789

Things to work on:

Adjust Font Color to make text more readable against the darker frame color. Thinking Gold (like on the PHB) or White.
Fix bug with attacks which do not have a target.
Start removing items from character sheet that were applicable to C&C but not to AD&D.
Thieves Skills and Thief Backstab Damage

[leozelig]

The code for determining the monster attack matrix (based on HD) sounds tricky. The screenshots didn't open for me, but I'm really curious based on your description :)

[vodokar]

Very odd. The ones I posted in post no. 1 display. But not in # 17. Let's try again.

16804

16805

and here is one after I changed the font color:

16806

I'm thinking maybe I should go a little brighter on the yellow. Opinions?

[damned]

The yellow is better for me, Im not hugely wrapped on such a bright colour scheme overall though... :)

[vodokar]

By "the yellow is better for me", does that mean, it's good now or go a little brighter with the yellow?

[Trenloe]

You're going to get some complaints about that red background...

[damned]

You're going to get some complaints about that red background...

We can always reskin it via extension... :bandit:


By "the yellow is better for me", does that mean, it's good now or go a little brighter with the yellow?

Out of the two options the second is better.... but Im not really a fan of either.... sorry...

[vodokar]

I really like the black background. The color of the frames and fonts I am still playing with. I actually like the red, but if you have another suggestion, I am open to it. I just get tired of seeing the same old tans and beiges and such. I especially want to distance the ruleset from C&C visually.

I just don't know. I wanted something different. But, I also have to please other people with this, of course.

How about this? 16810

[leozelig]

Have you considered goldenrod (https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-qUojMV6XaYM/VhbDUWesMeI/AAAAAAAADeY/tLlgPDZAtyU/s1600/2.jpg)? :)

[vodokar]

Very Interesting. And there is an AD&D tie in with it and not just some random color. But, I have the feeling the guys are going to say the same thing. I don't think they like colored frames. I'm going to try that though, just to see what it looks like. Here it is: 16825

Hmm, not bad. I wonder if I could use the red on the subwindow tabs.

[damned]

You can experiment quite a bit with your themes and character sheets. The top 3 of these are MoreCore Themes.
The bottom 3 are from full rulesets Im working on.

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=16828&d=1481164790

[vodokar]

Absolutely, it's fun figuring out how to do all of these things.

I think I'm going to go with the last one that was suggested by Leo (the golden rod). I might include more than one option for color scheme, so if the person really wants a more standard color, they can choose that. Options are good and everyone has a different opinion on these things. For me, even with my old eyes, it doesn't bother me having a colored frame background and even non-black fonts as long as they are readable, but I can certainly understand why someone else might not feel the same.

I'm just wanting to put forward a ruleset that not only captures the mechanics of this nostalgic game, but also visually captures that spirit of imagination. To me, the colors and artwork associated with the game have always had a great role in the essence of the game. So difficult to put those thoughts into words. I think you get what I'm trying to say, though. If this were anything other than AD&D, it likely wouldn't matter so much, but AD&D, for all it's quirks, is more than just a game to me, it's so many nostalgic memories collected over a lifetime; it's the spark that ignited my passion for rpg's that has lasted for over 38 years. It's tough to express that passion in simple basic beige or tan.

And on another note:

As a proud father, I present to you the first piece of coding that my son has done:

16829

It not only sets the frame for thief skills with the pickpockets listed as the first skill, but it auto-populates the pick pockets number based on level, checks to make sure the character is supposed to have thief skills and doesn't populate if they aren't supposed to have it, and rolls the dice and determines success/failure. Not bad for his first lesson. Of course, I had to guide him on this one, but he is going to do the rest of the skills on his own now that he has seen how to do it.

[damned]

Woot - three cheers for little Vod!

[Trenloe]

As a proud father, I present to you the first piece of coding that my son has done:

16829
I knew he was stealing stuff from me in that game! ;)

Nice one!

[Zhern]

Well done, TinyVod!

[Varsuuk]

Very Interesting. And there is an AD&D tie in with it and not just some random color. But, I have the feeling the guys are going to say the same thing. I don't think they like colored frames. I'm going to try that though, just to see what it looks like. Here it is: 16825

Hmm, not bad. I wonder if I could use the red on the subwindow tabs.

I was really intrigued with he Goldenrod suggestion! But without the other stuff being more reminiscent of the original char sheets, it's just another perhaps too bright color with little connection if you didn't also get shown the old sheet. on the other hand the prior one Progress3 looked pretty to me.

but if somehow you could emulate the texture and color and lines if not fonts of 5he old char sheet - that might rule them all.

[Varsuuk]

sweet! I'm jealous. thus far, my 9yo is talking that he no longer wants to be a software engineer and instead wants to be. youtuber.

No respect for Daddy... j/k

Btw, after looking at Damned's graphics, was. thinking the goldenrod one may work well if it gets a bit more uneven colored like the original sheet or something else to get color closer since what we saw is still a bit more cartoon than rpg.

you guys are rocking this thing hard!


Absolutely, it's fun figuring out how to do all of these things.

I think I'm going to go with the last one that was suggested by Leo (the golden rod). I might include more than one option for color scheme, so if the person really wants a more standard color, they can choose that. Options are good and everyone has a different opinion on these things. For me, even with my old eyes, it doesn't bother me having a colored frame background and even non-black fonts as long as they are readable, but I can certainly understand why someone else might not feel the same.

I'm just wanting to put forward a ruleset that not only captures the mechanics of this nostalgic game, but also visually captures that spirit of imagination. To me, the colors and artwork associated with the game have always had a great role in the essence of the game. So difficult to put those thoughts into words. I think you get what I'm trying to say, though. If this were anything other than AD&D, it likely wouldn't matter so much, but AD&D, for all it's quirks, is more than just a game to me, it's so many nostalgic memories collected over a lifetime; it's the spark that ignited my passion for rpg's that has lasted for over 38 years. It's tough to express that passion in simple basic beige or tan.

And on another note:

As a proud father, I present to you the first piece of coding that my son has done:

16829

It not only sets the frame for thief skills with the pickpockets listed as the first skill, but it auto-populates the pick pockets number based on level, checks to make sure the character is supposed to have thief skills and doesn't populate if they aren't supposed to have it, and rolls the dice and determines success/failure. Not bad for his first lesson. Of course, I had to guide him on this one, but he is going to do the rest of the skills on his own now that he has seen how to do it.

[vodokar]

Varsuuk, I will definitely see if I can set up some options for different color schemes or at least try to make extensions for it. I also liked the light blue one. I also like the red one with gold fonts though. And as I said, someone might just want a more Plain Jane conventional look.

Regarding the default look, I am going to go with the golden rod, but I really like your suggestions. I'll see what I can do. I'm not real talented with graphics. I prefer to work with one solid color. But, if I can make it more nuanced, i will. Of course, if someone out there is talented with graphics, perhaps they can help me with it. It would also be really nice if I can find a way to incorporate some of the decorations and look from the original character sheet, as you were saying. Obviously, right now, I'm pretty busy with the coding aspects of the project and trying to train my son with it, but I'll do everything I can to make things look good, as that is important.

Played around with your idea a bit. This is just a start, but see what you think. 16835

The main problem right now is that there isn't any room on the character sheet to add anything else. That might change if I remove or rearrange some stuff, as I am likely to do.

And thank you very much. I have worked unbelievably hard on all of this.

[damned]

you can always change the sheet size. Its not set in stone. But be aware that it will affect a LOT of stuff on every page.

[Full Bleed]

The 1e sheets we used early on were the ones from the Armory. B&W. Even the originals looked like photocopies or something printed out on a dot matrix printer!

1e Armory Sheets. (https://beyondtheblackgate.blogspot.com/2013/07/armory-ad-character-record-sheets.html)

I still have some of my earliest characters on those.

Later, we graduated to these Official AD&D sheets (https://www.mad-irishman.net/pubs/MI_ADnDREF2CharRecord.pdf).

(Note: That's a replica... a good one save for the text overlaying the AD&D title that I see through my browser.)

Never used the golden-rod sheets... but saw them on occasion from others when I participated in games outside my inner circle.

[LordEntrails]

We only put our very favorite characters on goldenrod sheets. Those were expensive and we didn't have many to go around :)

I found this tutorial and am going to try and see if I can come up with a texture that reminds me of the goldenrod sheets. Will let you know if I succeed.

https://www.gameartguppy.com/tutorial-how-to-create-a-seamless-texture-in-gimp/

[LordEntrails]

Ok, here are two seemless textures that you can use as background fills. Anyone can use these freely without concerns as I created them and release them to the public domain.
1683916840

If you want any changes to these or eve the native Gimp files, let me know.

[leozelig]

Those are nice, LordEntrails. I was only half-serious about the goldenrod - if you could somehow capture that look, then cool, but I don't know if it works as well with the frames.

[LordEntrails]

Those are nice, LordEntrails. I was only half-serious about the goldenrod - if you could somehow capture that look, then cool, but I don't know if it works as well with the frames.
*Shrugs* I have no idea if you can put a background fill into a character sheet or story, but I assume so. If you want them a different color scheme, they are really easy to do. I read the tutorial and did 2 in about 9 minutes total (if I remember the thread post times correctly).

If you want something,let me know, I'd be happy to help. Otherwise I will leave you to your work :)

[damned]

Those are nice, LordEntrails. I was only half-serious about the goldenrod - if you could somehow capture that look, then cool, but I don't know if it works as well with the frames.

Thats the impression I got too :)

[leozelig]

The main problem right now is that there isn't any room on the character sheet to add anything else. That might change if I remove or rearrange some stuff, as I am likely to do.

Managing character sheet real estate is much harder than it seems like it would be. I have tried making an AD&D character sheet a few times, and the ability score bonuses really eat up a lot of space, especially strength. It's a tough one!

[damned]

Managing character sheet real estate is much harder than it seems like it would be. I have tried making an AD&D character sheet a few times, and the ability score bonuses really eat up a lot of space, especially strength. It's a tough one!

Another Option I have experimented with is making those fields smaller. This gives you a few extra pixels each time. It is much easier making the sheet wider/longer when starting from scratch. Experiment with making it 100px wider and see what effect it has on each page.

BTW - this was aimed at vodokar rather than you leozelig - i know you know what you are doing :) heh... that could also be interpreted as saying vodokar doesnt... but hey :)

[vodokar]

I tried out the texture. It looks good, but, the way that FG does the tiling causes you to be able to see the texture blocks. That is why a solid color works best, because it is seamless.

The solid color for golden rod was sampled from the original character sheet that Leo shared, so it is exactly the same color. It seems brighter somehow than on the actual character sheet, but I think that's an optical illusion somehow, because the other things on the character sheet visually break up the color. I'll see what I can do about maybe making it less bright.

I'm still convinced that we are on the right path though. This is what I've been playing around with. It's still a bit rough, but I think with some time, it could come out good. 16844. Here it is with LordEntrails Texture: 16845.

LordEntrails, i think you are on the right track with the texture, but the edges need to be smoothed out so that it doesn't look blocky when tiled. Please do help, if you don't mind. I am limited with my skills for artwork and graphics. It would be greatly appreciated.

[Zhern]

We only put our very favorite characters on goldenrod sheets. Those were expensive and we didn't have many to go around :)

I found this tutorial and am going to try and see if I can come up with a texture that reminds me of the goldenrod sheets. Will let you know if I succeed.

https://www.gameartguppy.com/tutorial-how-to-create-a-seamless-texture-in-gimp/

This!! I was lucky that my friend's mom had a copy machine at her work (this was 1985ish) and made an extra 100 copies of the character sheets on golden rod paper. It was totally legit!

[vodokar]

Precisely why I think Golden Rod is the way to go. If you see your childhood / young adult years flashing before your eyes again, then we are succeeding in our project goals. :)

I have to be honest here. I never used any official character sheets of any type. I just wrote them down in a composition binder. But, clearly we have hit upon something that taps into an emotional connection for quite a few people. That makes me happy.

[Zhern]

Amen, brother!

[Myrdin Potter]

I never used the official character sheet as well, except for a photocopy used for my very first character (Sir Myrdin the Just, paladin - and that eventually became my SCA name as well and why I use Myrdin Potter here when I generally use my real name, Michael).

I have tested some more on the ruleset I was sent and if I use clean class names, everything seems to work as expected.

[vodokar]

Just to give an idea about where I'm headed with what I've learned from this discussion:

16848 Takin it old school.

That was very awesome your helping with that, Myrdin. There is a problem I know of with untargeted attacks. I'll be looking into that aspect of combat. But, it is great to hear that it is solid with targeted combat and that the class based combat tables are working properly.

One thing I'm wondering is if I should go to the trouble of extending level gain beyond the progression in the book, and if so, what the convention should be for that. Back in the day, we did sometimes play into higher levels; I myself had a 38th level fighter (took 4 years of weekly games to get that high). I don't know how my dm handled the progression; whether he kept adding bonuses on a regular schedule or if the combat bonuses capped out; as back at that time, we just rolled the dice and he simply told us if we hit or not.

Regarding "clean" class names, if you have any thoughts on how to widen that with "reasonable" variations of class names that should work, let me know. For instance, I've already handled things like Fighter vs fighter vs FIGHTER and things like Rogue vs Thief and Wizard vs Magic-User vs Magic User, all of which are reasonable variations that someone might type into the class field.

Were there any issues with entering monsters or npc's? One of the things I haven't dug into yet is that there is a switch on the npc sheet that allows to designate if it's a monster or npc. Not sure what that does internally and if it will break things.

And if you've any suggestions, you are in the best position to know, as you are the only one other than me that has play-tested it.

[Varsuuk]

Haven't had time to keep up with these posts (which means also you are ROCKING it ;) )
But just saw that character sheet and I love the detailing you added. Love it.

FYI... I used black and white photocopies of my Goldenrod sheets until/if they hit 5th level.
I ALSO had a pair (maybe 3?) of the DELUXE (yeah...uh-huh...we baaad) Sheets :)


Also, I will be on vacation starting next Thurs. If you need more testers, I can definitely find time to look at whatever portions of it you need once I am on vacation. Right now, with some rapid library enhancements I had to make prior to going on vacation next week, I have barely come up to breathe unless it were really late night (like now) where I'm a veg anyhow. Monday I release for QA to kick while I am away. We are in code freeze after next week anyway. They never move anything to Beta or Prod during holidays.




Just to give an idea about where I'm headed with what I've learned from this discussion:

16848 Takin it old school.

That was very awesome your helping with that, Myrdin. There is a problem I know of with untargeted attacks. I'll be looking into that aspect of combat. But, it is great to hear that it is solid with targeted combat and that the class based combat tables are working properly.

One thing I'm wondering is if I should go to the trouble of extending level gain beyond the progression in the book, and if so, what the convention should be for that. Back in the day, we did sometimes play into higher levels; I myself had a 38th level fighter (took 4 years of weekly games to get that high). I don't know how my dm handled the progression; whether he kept adding bonuses on a regular schedule or if the combat bonuses capped out; as back at that time, we just rolled the dice and he simply told us if we hit or not.

Regarding "clean" class names, if you have any thoughts on how to widen that with "reasonable" variations of class names that should work, let me know. For instance, I've already handled things like Fighter vs fighter vs FIGHTER and things like Rogue vs Thief and Wizard vs Magic-User vs Magic User, all of which are reasonable variations that someone might type into the class field.

Were there any issues with entering monsters or npc's? One of the things I haven't dug into yet is that there is a switch on the npc sheet that allows to designate if it's a monster or npc. Not sure what that does internally and if it will break things.

And if you've any suggestions, you are in the best position to know, as you are the only one other than me that has play-tested it.

[Myrdin Potter]

I will bang at it to try and break it tomorrow. Some visitors in the weekend from China, but when I am not taking them around I will see if I can get it to break. In 5e, I have always just dragged the class over from the PHB, not 100% certain what happens if you mess with the class name even there.

Typically, when I was directing data entry fields, I would set them so they had to be an acceptable selection or nothing. I think that if you control for the first character, you should be safe. I will check my AD&D PHB when I wake up tomorrow.

[damned]

if you really want to use goldenrod these might work - taken from lord entrails and leozeligs contributions.

1685016851

[Zhern]

if you really want to use goldenrod these might work - taken from lord entrails and leozeligs contributions.

1685016851

Goldenrod1 is the one that reminds me the most of the original.

[Myrdin Potter]

Testing for valid character classes

PHB is Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, Magic User, Illusionist, Thief, Assassin, and Monk (and Bard from the back of the book)

No repeating first letters there.

Unearthed Arcana messes that up though by adding Barbarian which conflicts with Bard, Cavalier which conflicts with Cleric and Acrobat which conflicts with Assassin. You have to test the first 4 letters to differentiate Bard and Barbarian.

[vodokar]

duplicate post

[vodokar]

Not the way it works Myrdin.

It works like this:

if nCurrentClass == "Fighter" or nCurrentClass == "fighter" or nCurrentClass == "FIGHTER"
or nCurrentClass == "Paladin" or nCurrentClass == "paladin" or nCurrentClass == "PALADIN"
or nCurrentClass == "Ranger" or nCurrentClass == "ranger" or nCurrentClass == "RANGER" then


In other words, it doesn't matter if two different classes share similar letters, because it has to be an exact and complete match to the string value the code is looking for.

As for Unearthed Arcana, I don't have a copy of it, so haven't been able to account for those classes. That is something I intend to add at a later point when I can pick up a copy.

Regarding the textures, Damned shared, I'm trying out this one:

16858

Been working on making the background of the icons transparent so that they blend properly with the frame background. Especially important if I provide options for the user to set various frame background colors.

[Myrdin Potter]

I am trying to suggest a way to deal with typing and spelling errors - force it to the accepted strings instead of hoping the user gets it right, because they will not.

[vodokar]

ahh, I see. So, for instance, if they type "Fig", it should recognize as Fighter. Good idea. Yes, we want to make this as "incredibly intelligent human" proof as possible.

[JohnD]

What about having a good way to handle multi classed characters and the differences between xp in each class and level between classes that can and do occur. The C&C ruleset doesn't do this well to begin with and my bringing it forward didn't generate any movement.

[vodokar]

Multiclassed is a difficult situation. I don't think it is impossible, but haven't developed a strategy for implementing it yet. Will likely add that as a feature down the road. I have some ideas. You know what that means. Even the mice are scared. :)

[Zhern]

if nCurrentClass == "Fighter" or nCurrentClass == "fighter" or nCurrentClass == "FIGHTER"
or nCurrentClass == "Paladin" or nCurrentClass == "paladin" or nCurrentClass == "PALADIN"
or nCurrentClass == "Ranger" or nCurrentClass == "ranger" or nCurrentClass == "RANGER" then



Lua, right? Isnt't here a case-insensitive compare? If not, why not convert the string to all lower or all caps and just do the compare on that? Saves having to do all the different compares. Just a thought.

[Zhern]

Multiclassed is a difficult situation. I don't think it is impossible, but haven't developed a strategy for implementing it yet. Will likely add that as a feature down the road. I have some ideas. You know what that means. Even the mice are scared. :)

Treat it as a second class for the purpose of representing it on the character sheet, for xp, hp, level etc., and do any of the magic necessary behind the scenes, maybe?

[Andraax]

if string.starts(nCurrentClass:lower(),"fig") or string.starts(nCurrentClass:lower(),"pal") or string.starts(nCurrentClass:lower(),"ran") then
...

[Zhern]

if string.starts(nCurrentClass:lower(),"fig") or string.starts(nCurrentClass:lower(),"pal") or string.starts(nCurrentClass:lower(),"ran") then
...

There ya go. Nice.

[LordEntrails]

I like what damned did with the textures. I'm not sure what to suggest or try/do to make it better. Is their a single background for the whole sheet or does each cell get its own?

If it's just one, if you tell me the pixel size of the sheet I can make a single texture for the whole sheet. That might make things look better. Or I could do a small thing, like 10 pixels square if their is a least common denominator type size...

[damned]

I like what damned did with the textures. I'm not sure what to suggest or try/do to make it better. Is their a single background for the whole sheet or does each cell get its own?

If it's just one, if you tell me the pixel size of the sheet I can make a single texture for the whole sheet. That might make things look better. Or I could do a small thing, like 10 pixels square if their is a least common denominator type size...

The files I uploaded are the char sheet dimensions.

[vodokar]

I increased the size of the character sheet in order to add the decorations. Nonetheless, the texture is pretty good. While you can see some seams, it is not nearly so noticeable as the first version.

I'm on my tablet stuck at a boring Christmas party. So no progress tonight.

[Varsuuk]

if you really want to use goldenrod these might work - taken from lord entrails and leozeligs contributions.

1685016851

GOLDENROD1 is to PERFECT I wish to meet her father and ask for his dau... hmmm nm, I'm already married...wouldn't work.

But one question, why not the pretty filigree on the right hand side?
Damned, I've said it before - I'll say it again (and many times more I presume) DAMN you are good.

[damned]

vodokar - suggestion - if you are only increasing the sheet to accommodate the decoration it is better to shrink the decoration. Shrink the decoration and move it right to the edges - thats why I did in my sample but you can shrink it further.

Varsuuk the original goldenrod has no scroll on the right hand side. If you are going to add scroll to the right hand side it should only be at the bottom right - it shouldnt go under the tabs.

[vodokar]

Home again. As I have said, up till now, it's still a work in progress and subject to change. I agree about removing the decoration from the right side. I was planning to do that anyway. I just put it there to see what it would look like and haven't gotten around to removing it. But, that will be something for tomorrow. I'm going to go watch the Army-Navy game that I recorded from earlier. I'm a navy vet.

[vodokar]

The fruits of tonight's labor: 16875

[Varsuuk]

MMMMMM :)

Cannot wait to get to use this thing - keep going! :)

[Trenloe]

The fruits of tonight's labor: 16875
Looking very nice.

[JohnD]

The fruits of tonight's labor: 16875

The forum won't let me give you more kudos. Looks nice.

[vodokar]

Inching my way foreward. 60 hour work weeks at the J.O.B. killing me.

16900

[GunnarGreybeard]

The forum won't let me give you more kudos. Looks nice.
I got him for you.

[leozelig]

Awesome! Much better without the contrasting frame colors.

[vodokar]

And a few more steps into the "Old School Total Conversion". 16909

Not finished with the detail work on the name box, but it's gettin' late and got to go to work tomorrow.

[Varsuuk]

I didn't know I'd ever miss that ol' shoe!

I inished a Lua Pluralsight "course", we get subs at work, i hope to look at some uleset code these next 3 weeks I am off. Don't expect I'll try to write a ruleset, even if I could get clue that fast (no lua experience) i have a lot already to get me.

But will definitely look forward to trying learn me some. May try Core-C&C just in case I might be able to contribute to ideas/reviewing in future.

[Full Bleed]

And a few more steps into the "Old School Total Conversion".
Some of those graphics are a little poor (pixelated or smudgy)... if you let me know what resolution and specs you need for them I can create optimized versions. Not sure how FG uses images (i.e. when building the CS are you resizing the image dynamically or does it have to be the correct size to begin with? Do they need to be transparent PNG's? Etc.)

Couple samples images (PNG's with transparency):

16911
16912
16913

Could do these at pretty much any resolution.

[vodokar]

Those do look nice. I never claimed to be a graphic designer or artist. I got the name frame that I am experimenting with using from this: 16919. If you think you can get a better image from it, be my guest. The size of the pngs you did look good. Likely Best to have them a little larger than needed and then they look better when xml downsizes them to the needed size.

[damned]

Those do look nice. I never claimed to be a graphic designer or artist. I got the name frame that I am experimenting with using from this:. If you think you can get a better image from it, be my guest. The size of the pngs you did look good. Likely Best to have them a little larger than needed and then they look better when xml downsizes them to the needed size.

It is absolutely better to use the correct sized images and not to let the system resize them for you.

[vodokar]

I'm sure that is correct, Damian, but I don't have a good idea exactly what those sizes would be until I am trying to fit it on the page. It is really beside the point though, as the reason the images were smudged and not clear is because I'm just not really good at working with graphics. Had nothing to do with the size. It was errors that I committed in making the background transparent. I know this, because I first brought the image into FG for sizing and placement before I did any editing on the image.

[Varsuuk]

I say you keep on with the graphics you got or get offered from folks. At the end, you will have the sizes more "frozen" and can then have the graphicnoscenti doe their majic and make em reaaaaal purdylike.

Remember, Premature Optimization is the Root of All Evil*

Regards,
Dan


*Of course, Premature Pessimation is just durn dumb... friends don't let friends copy std::strings all over the place**.


Happy Holidays!

**Said joking comment especially applies to C++98 which I still need to work with...

[vodokar]

Thanks so much to Damned. He helped me behind the scenes to take this concept to the next level. Too many numerous things he helped with to list, many which are behind the scenes type stuff, but know that he truly is a wonderful guy. I hereby proclaim him "Scotty". He spent one day, probably not even, looking at my code and helped in record speed. "I couldn'a possibly get the warp drive up in less than 6 hours, Cap'n." An hour later, we are warping out.

Also thanks for the contribution of Full Bleed. I incorporated two of the images you uploaded. The third one, Damned already had me covered for.

Here are the latest progress shots: 16921 and 16922 and 16923


I really can't say enough about the help Damned gave. It brought tears to my eyes seeing my dream coming to reality.

[Varsuuk]

I NEED to Play with This!

:)

All I'm sayin' is you better drive carefully and eat all that fiber stuff and don't do anything risky. You NEED to complete this ruleset. Also, please have it in some git with someone holding instructions should you run afoul of some International Assassin's League or maybe disparage bacon within earshot of Ron Swanson or the like.

But yeah... Meh, I could take it or leave it, this ruleset...nobiggie...

[Full Bleed]

It is absolutely better to use the correct sized images and not to let the system resize them for you.
This is true. There are some levels of scaling (depending on the algorithms used) that would be nearly identical, but exact (aka "native" vs "down/up sizing") will always be the cleanest.

At any rate, I was just offering and illustrating. Any graphic from the classic goldenrod character sheet can be sized cleanly and exactly to your needs. When you have exact resolutions just let me know. The point being that you don't have to bother with graphical work if it's not in your wheelhouse.

[leozelig]

I'm sure you are working on other things, but I would do levels like 3.5E (a list of classes with level for each), maybe even include XP in that list. You could have a multiclass PC with an XP bonus for one class and not the other, and dual classing would reset your XP for the new class. The biggest problem will probably be finding room on the sheet.

Looks awesome by the way!

[vodokar]

I'm sure you are working on other things, but I would do levels like 3.5E (a list of classes with level for each), maybe even include XP in that list. You could have a multiclass PC with an XP bonus for one class and not the other, and dual classing would reset your XP for the new class. The biggest problem will probably be finding room on the sheet.

Looks awesome by the way!

16934 You were saying, sir? ;)

Now, don't get your hopes up yet. Haven't done any of the lua scripting to make use of that new data. You do realize you added like tons of hours to the project. :cry: But, looking forward to it. It's going to make for some more complications to the code trying to account for the different classes and level combinations, but I like the challenge.

I'll need to brush up on my dual classing and multi-classing rules, but I think you use whatever the most advantageous number for combat effectiveness, as a whole, and individually for each saving throw category i.e. a fighter/magic-user/thief would obviously use fighter table for combat in most cases, but might use magic user for 2 saving throws, thief for two of them and fighter for the fifth one, depending on which numbers are best. Complicated, but I believe it can be done. Worst case, it can always be adjusted manually with the modifier buttons, but, ideally, I would like to be able to automate that.

[Myrdin Potter]

No need to do much work on multiclassing. Just embed into the code a bonus for all monsters trying to hit such complications and they'll die quick enough....

(Can you tell multi-classing always annoyed me? :-) )

[vodokar]

Will +20 to hit and damage be enough? :pirate:

Anyways, I did get the total level calculation online since last post. So, it adds up all the levels automatically.

No way I am going to dig into the rest of the multi-classing stuff anytime soon. Maybe not before release. As much as I would like to add that feature, I don't see delaying release in order to do it. Can always add the plumbing for that later. I mainly just wanted to set up the framework for it at this point.

I really didn't mind multi-classing in 1e. It had pretty strict limitations on it, especially with racial level limits. In modern games, it has gotten out of hand a little bit though. What some people call "Freedom", I call "nonsense", but that's just one person's opinion. At any rate, that is beyond the scope of this thread, so let's not go there.

[Varsuuk]

I think you are right accounting for it, but even more right not trying to include it in first go around.

That said, Multiclassing Fighter/Magic-User Elves are gong to want to crop up. Waiting for support for that is not too much to ask so that the whole is created.

I played Humans 99% of the time...think I had one half elf multiclass character for like 2-3 levels once.

[leozelig]

3.5E sets it up as a table. For multi-classing, everything is the best number, so you get mixed saving throw arrays.

I say don't waste time on the automation of "to hit" bonuses and saving throws. It's easy enough for a player to enter them, and you can always add it later. Same goes for turning undead and thief skills. Just get a working character sheet and add in the bells and whistles later if you want.

[vodokar]

I've already added most of the things you just said I didn't need to do. It's hard to believe, because it seems like a lot longer, but I started on the ruleset on Nov 11, so it's only been 34 days. In that time, I got a lot of things done that I never dreamed I would even be able to figure out how to do.

The point is, now that I know how to do those things, it doesn't take long. The first one took as long to do as all the others combined, because I was trying to learn how to do it. I will definitely be automating turning undead and thief skills (thief skills already half done and if I was doing it would have already been done, but making my son do it for the experience).

All the other things you mentioned were done a long time ago. I should have time to do all the things I really want to get done and still get this out by the first of the year. I just won't be digging into the multi-classing stuff yet, because it adds a lot of complication onto the saving throw and combat code that I don't want to deal with yet; I will, but not yet.

[leozelig]

All the better, it looks great so far :)

[vodokar]

My son finished his work on the Thieves' Skills: 16996 . His next assignment, as he is off school tomorrow, and I have to work a 10 hour shift, :( is to begin work on the Cleric Turning Table.

As for what I've been doing. I am continuing the work on the character sheet. Won't bother with screenshots. You've already seen enough to get the idea.

And I am currently writing an action script for the pummeling, grappling and overbear system to make it work more like AD&D. There isn't a way to get full automation on that, as there are a ton of modifiers that have to be taken into consideration before the attacker makes the roll, but it can still be workable. I know that isn't really a system that was used all that much, but I don't think it will take that long to come up with something, so in interest of completeness and authenticity, I'm going to try to work it out.

[vodokar]

Got the Action Script done for Grappling.
17006

Basically how it works is:

1) Click on the modifiers for the defender from the Effects Menu for Grapple To-Hit. These are from DMG page 72.
2) Attacker makes the To-Hit roll. It automatically calculates the target number based on the armor he is wearing (ac*10 per DMG page 72) and subtracts his dexterity score.
3) Success or Failure is reported.

If successful:

1) Click on modifiers for the defender from the Effects Menu for Grapple Result. These are from DMG page 72.
2) Attacker makes the Result Roll. There is not target number for this. It is roll high = better compared to a table. Automatically adds attackers bonuses for dex and str scores.
3) Result from table on DMG page 73 is outputted.

Pummel and Overbear work very similar. Should be able to put those scripts together tomorrow.

Note that none of these systems use the same system as normal attacking. Technically speaking, they are ability rolls. They are irrespective of class or level and the biggest factor is armor of attacker and defender.

Not saying that the AD&D version of this is the best ever devised and implemented, but I took an oath prior to starting this project that I would deliver AD&D faithfully and authentically, including all it's little quirks and idiosyncrasies, as best I could.

[vodokar]

17027

If there is anyone that feels they can sharpen up this icon of the fist, please help me with it.

Here is the character sheet I got it from: 17028

[dmkevin]

17034

How about this?

[Full Bleed]

17027

If there is anyone that feels they can sharpen up this icon of the fist, please help me with it.

Here is the character sheet I got it from: 17028
That sheet doesn't have enough resolution.

Though that's a pretty easy graphic to find an alternative for... however, as noted earlier, knowing the exact resolution needed would yield the best results.

Here are some options to consider:

17039
17038

[vodokar]

if string.starts(nCurrentClass:lower(),"fig") or string.starts(nCurrentClass:lower(),"pal") or string.starts(nCurrentClass:lower(),"ran") then
...

Finally got around to trying this. I receive this error: Script Error: [string "paralyzation"]:1: attempt to call field 'starts' (a nil value)

Nevermind. I figured out a way to do the same idea that I was able to get to work.

local nCurrentClass = DB.getValue(nodeWin, "classes.slot1.name", "Thief");
nCurrentClass = string.lower(nCurrentClass);
if string.match(nCurrentClass, "fig") or string.match(nCurrentClass, "pal") or string.match(nCurrentClass, "ran") then

[Myrdin Potter]

Most of the AD&D spell names are OGL as are the equipment (and monsters). What is the best way to create content that could be dragged and dropped onto character sheets for reference and could be filled out by the DM? Equipment is just items, but what about spells?

[damned]

Most of the AD&D spell names are OGL as are the equipment (and monsters). What is the best way to create content that could be dragged and dropped onto character sheets for reference and could be filled out by the DM? Equipment is just items, but what about spells?

This ruleset is layered on the Castles&Crusades ruleset (like Pathfinder is layered on the 3.5e ruleset) so you will need the C&C ruleset to use this. This is where some magic happens and the C&C equipment, monsters and spells will be available to you. All of them will be there already :) Well... thats the plan.

[vodokar]

Yes, indeed, the C&C manuals and modules a person owns are available to use in this ruleset. That is not what Myrdinis referring to though. We want to make a monster manual and spell manual that contains placeholder records of ogl compliant things without the actual ad&d stats filled out. That would also jumpstart things for the dm that wants to fill in the stats from thier manuals. This is somethinglike what leo has done for dcc.

[Myrdin Potter]

I will need to read the C&C spells over. If they are the same as the AD&D rules then maybe no need to make a special file for it, unless you what the ability to have the exact same wording. I do know all the spells with proper names would not be there.

[damned]

I will need to read the C&C spells over. If they are the same as the AD&D rules then maybe no need to make a special file for it, unless you what the ability to have the exact same wording. I do know all the spells with proper names would not be there.

Unlike the 5e ruleset the wording will not make any real difference. There is no spell automation in C&C.

[vodokar]

While this is correct, it still matters what the words are. My intention is to give both the choice of using the already prepared C&C stuff and the incomplete AD&D module which you will have to fill in for yourself. To some, they won't want to bother with adding their own data and will just use the C&C stuff even if it differs. For others, they want the pure AD&D game and thus will go to the effort of filling in the data module.

So, this is what I would do. Have the C&C entry open in Fantasy Grounds and a new record open beside it. Look in the C&C book and the AD&D book and compare the two. For that stuff that is the same, enter it into the new record. The record fields that are different, leave it blank, so that the DM can fill it in themselves. Even if the record was completely blank except for the title of the record, it is still helpful, because the record would already be existing and waiting for the DM to fill in the data.

[Zhern]

It should be possible to clone the original record so that when the new window opens it has the same info. That way the DM doesn't have to edit a ton of stuff if they only want to change the wording or whatnot.

[Myrdin Potter]

What I was hoping for was a "book" with the blank spells and monsters set-up but not entered except for the OGL portion. Then if someone felt that the C&C was close enough then good, otherwise the DM can create the spell books and monster manual themselves.

AD&D is out in PDF, and the entries themselves are not long, so shouldn't be a big deal to do.

The monsters are easy, at the built in NPC function does the trick. Although I would not want to create C&C monsters as the AD&D ruleset handles combat differently. Not sure if spells are just formatted story entries or if they are something else.

[Zhern]

The spells entries are in the db that are populated on the page via a list, which is really just more like a query that is returning a specific extract of information (at least that is how I look at it, I'm sure someone can correct me.) This is my way of saying yes, you should be able to have a mostly blank spellbook that only has specific fields populated that could be opened beside the C&C spells and then populated as the GM sees fit. Alternatively, it could be a template that when you hit the edit button, it populates a new page in the mostly blank spellbook, then when you hit save, it writes that record to the database. The xml below is intended to show the structure of the spell record in the database, how it is populated and then retrieved. Hope I didn't muddle that too badly.

So, for example, the spell Acid Arrow, is described as such in the db:



<acidarrow>
<name type="string">Acid Arrow</name>
<level type="string">Wizard 2</level>
<components type="string">V, S, M</components>
<castingtime type="string">X</castingtime>
<range type="string">XXX ft.</range>
<duration type="string">X rd + Xrd/X lvl</duration>
<save type="string">none</save>
<sr type="string">yes</sr>
<description type="formattedtext"><p>Words words words words</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p></description>
<shortdescription type="string">Damage words</shortdescription>
</acidarrow>


Then, it is populated into the list like this, which is creating a link to the record/entry for acid arrow, and is essentially populating the database in the specific schema for these entries.



<acidarrow>
<link type="windowreference"><class>spelldesc</class><recordname>spelldesc.acidarrow@EditionAgnosticHandbook</recordname></link>
<level type="number">2</level>
</acidarrow>


After that, when the reference sheet for spells is pulled up, it will list each spell by class and level with a link to the description, which is what is contained in the first snippet.

[Myrdin Potter]

Damned - how do I create a new C&C spellbook that will be recognized and provide a list of spells and is there an easy way for future DM to edit the shell that was set-up?

[damned]

If you have C&C create a blank campaign.
Open the PHB and copy/duplicate by drag and drop one or two spells.
Hit /export in chat and select spells and fill out the rest of the data.
This will create an XML/MOD base for you to work from.
Hope that helps.

[Myrdin Potter]

Thanks, I will do that. And Merry Christmas (I think it is Boxing Day for you by now ...)

[damned]

What I was hoping for was a "book" with the blank spells and monsters set-up but not entered except for the OGL portion. Then if someone felt that the C&C was close enough then good, otherwise the DM can create the spell books and monster manual themselves.

AD&D is out in PDF, and the entries themselves are not long, so shouldn't be a big deal to do.

The monsters are easy, at the built in NPC function does the trick. Although I would not want to create C&C monsters as the AD&D ruleset handles combat differently. Not sure if spells are just formatted story entries or if they are something else.

What do you mean the AD&D ruleset handles them differently? I think the main difference is ascending/descending AC and the bth/thac0 both of which vodokar is planning to convert on the fly via the ruleset. Hopefully that addresses you major concern?

[vodokar]

Allow me to clarify things. Damned is correct. The AD&D ruleset can handle both C&C style ascending AC npc records and AD&D style descending npc records. So, that is not an issue. It does so like this:

if rTarget.sType ~= "pc" then -- pc's already have Descending AC, but might have AC > 10 if dexterity score is very low. We want to make sure that doesn't get flipped.
-- Convert Ascending AC to Descending AC
if nDefenseVal > 10 then -- if it was Ascending AC
nDefenseVal = 20 - nDefenseVal -- it is now Descending
end
end

What it does is this.

We assume that PC's are entered as Descending AC, because that is how the character sheet is set up.

So, during the attack calculation, if the target of an attack is a pc, we do nothing and it passes thru as descending.
If the target of an attack is not a pc, then we check to see if the AC is > 10 i.e. Ascending. If it is, we convert it to Descending, otherwise, we leave it alone.

Regarding the C&C BTH data, that is totally ignored in my ruleset. The combat effectiveness is determined by the Hit Dice of the creature using the format of NdN+n ie. a kobold is 1(d4)+0 hit points. The combat engine reads this and get's pointed to the appropriate column of the DMG Attack Matrix.

Thus, either style of npc entry is supported.

That is not the issue at hand. It is entirely possible for the user to use the C&C stuff totally unchanged and never enter a thing. That was a design goal.

People that are like me, however, that are game purists, will want the option to add their own AD&D stuff, however, as they might have years of dragon and dungeon magazine materials, gobs of old modules, etc. etc.

That is what we are talking about here. We want to make it easier for those people too, as much as we can legally. Closest we will get is to have a monster handbook and spellbook that has the structure to accept the data they will want to enter.

[damned]

Coolio - I might finally understand what Mr Potter is seeking :)
Myrdin Potter do the same with 2 monsters as well - a simple monster and a more complex one. You would then have your template for spells and monsters.
With spells, do 4 spells, 2 wizard and 2 cleric.

[Zhern]

Okay, damned's post connected the dots for me.

[Trenloe]

Finally got around to trying this. I receive this error: Script Error: [string "paralyzation"]:1: attempt to call field 'starts' (a nil value)
This is telling you the .starts function is not valid. This is because string.starts is not a valid function in LUA version 5.1.

Make sure you're only looking at LUA 5.1 functions: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/modguide/scripting.xcp and https://www.lua.org/manual/5.1/

Be aware that string.match is not the same as string.starts, it will return true if the pattern is anywhere in the string. You might want to consider using string.find(nCurrentClass, "fig") for example, which will return 1 if nCurrentClass starts with "fig" - it basically returns the position of the first occurrence of the pattern, with 1 being the first character.

[Andraax]

Be aware that string.match is not the same as string.starts, it will return true if the pattern is anywhere in the string. You might want to consider using string.find(nCurrentClass, "fig") for example, which will return 1 if nCurrentClass starts with "fig" - it basically returns the position of the first occurrence of the pattern, with 1 being the first character.

You can also start your pattern with "^", which will then only match if the pattern is at the start.

[vodokar]

Given that the string.match is searching the class string, is it really necessary to be concerned about those nuances? How can the user so royally mess up the name of their class that it would ever matter? At some point, you have to draw the line and expect the user to actually read the rulebook for the game and see what the official class names are and do simple things like spell it correctly. Nevertheless, I appreciate those tips and will definitely file that knowledge away. Having said that, I'm sure I'll get someone asking why they can't get their fihgter to be recognized. :p

[Trenloe]

Given that the string.match is searching the class string, is it really necessary to be concerned about those nuances?
I was purely trying to replicate the original code you were attempting to use - which was string.starts, which looks at what a string starts with. If you're not bothered with checking for the start of the string then I'm not either, go nuts.

[vodokar]

As always, totally appreciated, Martin.

Question: If you see this. 17079 Is it obvious what it is for and how it works?

[Bidmaron]

Well, if you were an AD&D player, I think it would be obvious how it works. It has been years since I played it, so I don't remember the mechanics very well.

[Trenloe]

Question: If you see this. 17079 Is it obvious what it is for and how it works?
You certainly need to spend the time reading it, but it looks OK and will be fine for AD&D GMs/Players once they've used it. You could also make good use of expanded instruction text in a tooltip for each field, to give more info on the field when hovering over but not take up screen space.

[vodokar]

The Unarmed Combat System (grappling, pummeling and overbearing) in AD&D is cumbersome because it requires a long list of modifiers (+/-) on the attack. I originally intended to set these modifiers up in the effects menu and run it thru the modifier box. I ran into a wall though, because the modifier box only accepts 6 modifiers. Clearly the person that designed it never thought there would be a need to modify the roll that many times. It is not unusual to require 10 or more modifiers to an Unarmed Combat attack in AD&D. Yeah, it's that archaic and wargamish.

So, I worked around the issue by creating a mini-sheet as a worksheet to list all the modifiers and allow them to be totalled up and added to the roll. Works great. But, was concerned it might not be understandable how to use it. The Unarmed Combat System was never used much when playing pen and paper because it is too detailed and takes too much time to figure all those modifiers out by hand.

But, I think that presented in this way with computer assistance, it may actually be useful. That's what I hope, at least. So, if your characters are in a bar fight or trying to escape capture without their weapons, you've a realistic system to use for that. And who knows, maybe that Ogre might just try to pick up the fighter and throw him against the wall instead of just swinging a club at him.

The basic idea is simple. The # of times applied means "the number of times you want to apply the modifier" because, in some cases, it gets applied multiple times. That is all you actually need to enter is that number. Everything else is calculated from that. Then you just double click the last box to make the attack.

[Zhern]

The Unarmed Combat System (grappling, pummeling and overbearing) in AD&D is cumbersome because it requires a long list of modifiers (+/-) on the attack. I originally intended to set these modifiers up in the effects menu and run it thru the modifier box. I ran into a wall though, because the modifier box only accepts 6 modifiers. Clearly the person that designed it never thought there would be a need to modify the roll that many times. It is not unusual to require 10 or more modifiers to an Unarmed Combat attack in AD&D. Yeah, it's that archaic and wargamish.

So, I worked around the issue by creating a mini-sheet as a worksheet to list all the modifiers and allow them to be totalled up and added to the roll. Works great. But, was concerned it might not be understandable how to use it. The Unarmed Combat System was never used much when playing pen and paper because it is too detailed and takes too much time to figure all those modifiers out by hand.

But, I think that presented in this way with computer assistance, it may actually be useful. That's what I hope, at least. So, if your characters are in a bar fight or trying to escape capture without their weapons, you've a realistic system to use for that. And who knows, maybe that Ogre might just try to pick up the fighter and throw him against the wall instead of just swinging a club at him.

The basic idea is simple. The # of times applied means "the number of times you want to apply the modifier" because, in some cases, it gets applied multiple times. That is all you actually need to enter is that number. Everything else is calculated from that. Then you just double click the last box to make the attack.

This is why I like 0e/BX/BECMI. Tell me what you want to do, we'll figure it out. If all else fails, we can contest strength checks and go from there. Grapple complete. :)

I do give you props for putting this together, though. There will be some who want to use it and you'll have hit the mark with it. Nice work.

[vodokar]

Thanks Zhern. I already have it figured out. Just need to get it all implemented. Finally have some substantial time off coming, off for the next 4 days from work now that the Christmas rush at work is over. So, I plan to get the rest of the features I had planned laid into the ruleset and get as much spit and polish done on it. I'm aiming for a release in a couple weeks; though no promises.

As for the mechanics, I'm sticking with the rules as written for the Unarmed Combat, because I want to make the ruleset, as a whole, as much faithful to the original system as I am able. It is actually a very well thought out and realistic system; just time consuming trying to run it at the table by hand. But, with the magic of Fantasy Grounds, much of the drudgery is removed.

There is only one thing I really want to do that I haven't figured out yet. Currently, I placed this "mini-worksheet" on the character sheet. Ideally, where I really want to place it, however, is as a tab on the sidebar. As it is implemented as an ability (that should be accessible to any character or npc), rather than a targetable attack (tried making it an attack and that fouled up everything), that would be the most logical place to put it. So, if there are any hints on how to implement a new sidebar tab, that would be helpful, otherwise, I'm sure I'll figure it out now that I have some more time to go poking around in the code.

[vodokar]

Well, Unarmed Combat has been a real beast to tackle. The code needed was pretty convoluted and had to really come up with some new ways to approach it. Almost done.

17121 and 17122 and 17123.

Per Damned's suggestion, each minisheet button has mouse over instructions. Managed to link into both the character sheet and the npc sheet for easy access.

Just need to add the overbear attack and will be done. After so much work on this, sure hope it actually gets used by someone. I know if I am DM, I'll make sure to have my giants and ogre's reach out and touch someone -- and roll them up in a ball and toss them, and rip off their arms and all sorts of nasty stuff. ;) It is an "Unarmed" Attack, after all.

[damned]

Hahaha - that was Trenloe but I am a big fan of Tooltips...

[vodokar]

Latest ScreenShots. Almost there.

Main Tab: 17178
Combat Tab: 17179
Grappling MiniSheets: 17180
Pummeling MiniSheets: 17181
Overbearing MiniSheets: 17182

Just need to finish up the Abilities tab, then tweak some code in the combat engine and will likely be good for release, unless I see something urgent that I've overlooked (like documentation that will likely be necessary to understand some of the features).

I played around a little with trying some coding with the multi-class stuff tonight to no avail. I think it is just too complex of a script to try to do in an embedded script. Will likely have to do a full lua script to make that functionality work, which will wait till after release, because that will be a whole project in and of itself trying to break out all five saving throws into lua scripts.

[Myrdin Potter]

I used the unarmed combat rules a few times while DMing, but they were a real pain in the *** to use and I just started winging it. The automation here makes it much simpler.

I tested using the last ruleset you sent me and only had time to test using the good characters I had made. What I expected (the rules) happened. Did not have a chance to try and break it yet.

[damned]

I never used the unarmed rules... and looking at these screen shots Im glad I never even tried to!
Ohh... and your joke about arms the other day.... soooo bad....

[Zhern]

Latest ScreenShots. Almost there.

Main Tab: 17178
Combat Tab: 17179
Grappling MiniSheets: 17180
Pummeling MiniSheets: 17181
Overbearing MiniSheets: 17182

Just need to finish up the Abilities tab, then tweak some code in the combat engine and will likely be good for release, unless I see something urgent that I've overlooked (like documentation that will likely be necessary to understand some of the features).

I played around a little with trying some coding with the multi-class stuff tonight to no avail. I think it is just too complex of a script to try to do in an embedded script. Will likely have to do a full lua script to make that functionality work, which will wait till after release, because that will be a whole project in and of itself trying to break out all five saving throws into lua scripts.

On the main page, the boxes that are cut almost in half with the percentages in them, did you use a custom graphic for that? Or did you manage to do that another way?

[Zhern]

I used the unarmed combat rules a few times while DMing, but they were a real pain in the *** to use and I just started winging it. The automation here makes it much simpler.

I tested using the last ruleset you sent me and only had time to test using the good characters I had made. What I expected (the rules) happened. Did not have a chance to try and break it yet.

Yeah, I never used them because of the complexity and the slowdown they could bring at the table. I still ignore most all grappling rules and keep it simple (attack roll, contested strength roll, repeat contested each round - done).

[Trenloe]

Latest ScreenShots. Almost there.

Main Tab: 17178
Combat Tab: 17179
Grappling MiniSheets: 17180
Pummeling MiniSheets: 17181
Overbearing MiniSheets: 17182
Looks like you've put a lot of work into these. So I feel loathe to increase your workload/push you back to the drawing board with a recommendation. But...

Be very careful when you open new windows that are essentially tied to data/functionality of another window. FG allows you to have multiple windows open at one time and it's very easy for the desktop to become cluttered with multiple windows - especially in the heat of combat. The GM might click the "Mini" button on an NPC and leave the window open, then click the same button on another NPC record - now we have two "Unarmed Attack" windows open - which one applies to which NPC? Then more windows could be opened (grapple, pummel, etc.) - which ones do those apply to? Then, if you want to get back to the original creature sheet to do something else (roll damage, do a save due to a resulting PC reply, or some such) how do you quickly-and-easily get back to the originating creature sheet? I can see this becoming very unwieldy/confusing very quickly for those GMs who open a lot of windows during the heat of combat.

This is why the usual FG interface design keeps all things related to a PC or NPC within their individual sheet - usually as additional tabs. Yes there are "Mini" sheets in a lot of rulesets, but these tend to follow the same design, being a smaller version of the main window, along with tabs to partition out the data (taking the 3.5E/PF Mini PC window as an example).

Hope this doesn't derail you too much - but I think less individual windows, more tabs is a good design goal when it comes to PC/NPC sheets. You could even make sections within an "Unarmed Combat" tab dynamic - using LUA to show/hide the relevant data controls depending on what option was selected.

[Zhern]

Looks like you've put a lot of work into these. So I feel loathe to increase your workload/push you back to the drawing board with a recommendation. But...

Be very careful when you open new windows that are essentially tied to data/functionality of another window. FG allows you to have multiple windows open at one time and it's very easy for the desktop to become cluttered with multiple windows - especially in the heat of combat. The GM might click the "Mini" button on an NPC and leave the window open, then click the same button on another NPC record - now we have two "Unarmed Attack" windows open - which one applies to which NPC? Then more windows could be opened (grapple, pummel, etc.) - which ones do those apply to? Then, if you want to get back to the original creature sheet to do something else (roll damage, do a save due to a resulting PC reply, or some such) how do you quickly-and-easily get back to the originating creature sheet? I can see this becoming very unwieldy/confusing very quickly for those GMs who open a lot of windows during the heat of combat.

This is why the usual FG interface design keeps all things related to a PC or NPC within their individual sheet - usually as additional tabs. Yes there are "Mini" sheets in a lot of rulesets, but these tend to follow the same design, being a smaller version of the main window, along with tabs to partition out the data (taking the 3.5E/PF Mini PC window as an example).

Hope this doesn't derail you too much - but I think less individual windows, more tabs is a good design goal when it comes to PC/NPC sheets. You could even make sections within an "Unarmed Combat" tab dynamic - using LUA to show/hide the relevant data controls depending on what option was selected.

I do have a question around this. Does the FG implementation support flyout windows at all? If you aren't familiar with what I mean by flyout, it would be the type of window (or menu) that doesn't create a new window, it creates a new part of the window. So if you had the character sheet with a button for spells, it would extend the current character sheet to wider to show the spells. Flyouts are a big part of WPF development. I would imagine they will be part of the Unity build of FG, but wasn't sure if anyone has done it with the current architecture.

[Trenloe]

You can dynamically change the size of the base window, but you can't extend a portion of it (i.e. extend out a quarter size section). See here for changing the size of a window: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/refdoc/windowinstance.xcp#setSize You'd more than likely want to put the window back to the original size after as GMs can be quite finicky with getting all of their window sizes setup to maximise their desktop space. Also, resizing a window can have unpredictable results on all of the other controls already within the window - especially if the GUI design has not been made to cater for resizing - some portions are, some aren't, plus some are coded to cope with vertical sizing and not horizontal (or vice versa). So there can be a lot of complications with what might appear to be a "simple" resize.

As such, usually the approach would be another tab that is created to show the additional data - this could be dynamically controlled (content, access to tab, etc.) but it is probably best to try to avoid dynamically resizing the whole window.

[Zhern]

Thanks, Trenloe. I was thinking more on this after I asked the question. The resize issue would require the windows and controls to be responsive, much like a web page that is dynamically scaled when moving from computer browser to tablet and to phone. I can see how it would be problematic. Another thing that came to mind would be to create the frame the size you needed, say double the width of the character sheet, and make one half invisible. I don't think that is possible, though, with the base frame since it can't really be partitioned and frames are merely drawn over it.

I was considering a new mini-spell window popout via a button but I think I'll stick to having a spells tab. My only real complaint about FG is how crowded the screen can become when there are many windows open. I'm hopeful that in FGU there will be an option to dock the windows to a specific part of the screen or to open new windows either as a tab of the original window or within the original window, much like is possible in a browser.

[damned]

I dont know if you can tell exactly what is happening here... this is something coming in the next build of MoreCore...
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=17192&d=1482827054
17192

[vodokar]

I see your point, Trenloe, but I don't think it will be an issue. As always, you are (anoyingly :o) right.

However, the design assumption is this:

The buttons on the PC sheet will be accessed by the player. Certainly the DM will have to give the player certain pieces of information about the defender he is attacking, such as what type of armor he is wearing or what his dexterity is or whatnot, but it is assumed the player will be the one filling it out and making the attack, with assistance from the DM. Since the player usually is only running just one character or at least only has one character sheet open at once, it shouldn't be confusing.

As for the NPC, while each NPC sheet has a link to the worksheets, they are not data connected i.e. they aren't reading any data from the npc, therefore, all it is doing is putting the link to the worksheets in a convenient place for the DM. It makes no difference what npc opened it. It is just a generic worksheet. I could just as easily move that link onto the sidebar, had considered doing that originally, and might if you give me a clue on doing so.

Back to the player sheet, it is reading a piece or two of data from the pc that opened it, like strength, dexterity and/or flatfooted armor class; so that one isn't totally generic, but specific to the character. Maybe I can just put the character's name up at the top of the worksheets, to eliminate any possibility of confusion.

As for how much time I spent on putting that subsystem together, i don't even want to think about that... it was far far too long for something of it's nature; but it's done now. I must have lost my sanity in a CoC game is all I can say.

[Bidmaron]

vodokar, I don't think most DMs want their players fussing with enemy dexterity scores and so on, and it will be the DM doing the sheets. However, although I used to play AD&D I have moved on to Pathfinder now, so maybe my view isn't representative. I agree with Trenloe, however.

[vodokar]

I never used the unarmed rules... and looking at these screen shots Im glad I never even tried to!
Ohh... and your joke about arms the other day.... soooo bad....

Well, what can I say, you don't argue when a Hill Giant spares your life if you promise to repeat his joke ... and you never ever ever tell him his joke is bad; not if you still want to be able to type on the magic communication box.

As for simplicity over realism; that is an old argument indeed. For the most part, Gygax went the route of simplicity i.e. using AC as dodge rather than damage resistance, a simple hit point system vice other much more complex examples or hit location tables etc. But, he was a war-gamer and that did come out in some cases. If you think this system is complex, check out his morale check system for henchmen. There are literally two pages of modifiers.

But, we have the advantage of a magic computational device of virtually infinite charges, these days.

Player: My fighter would like to try to grapple the orc guard that I snuck up behind.

DM: He is wearing chain, dex of 12, is one notch faster than you, but I'll say he is slowed because he was startled by your approach.

17193. Player makes roll. 17194 Success!

Player: For the result I need to know about some of these other pieces of information.
DM: He has 16 str and is using a shield. Also, he is still slowed.
17197 Player makes roll. 17198. Done.

[vodokar]

vodokar, I don't think most DMs want their players fussing with enemy dexterity scores and so on, and it will be the DM doing the sheets. However, although I used to play AD&D I have moved on to Pathfinder now, so maybe my view isn't representative. I agree with Trenloe, however.

Most DM's these days would not fret about telling the player the small details needed. I thought DM sealing of information behind a firewall was an old school thing. But, that is up to the DM, of course. As for me, personally, I would likely just go ahead and fill it out and then close it after the roll was made.

However, as I stated, simply putting the character's name at the top of the sheet will remove any confusion on where the window came from, regardless. Easy fix.

And, as I stated, the npc sheet is just generic anyways, so it doesn't matter where it was opened from.

[Zhern]

On the main page, the boxes that are cut almost in half with the percentages in them, did you use a custom graphic for that? Or did you manage to do that another way?

vodokar - did you see this?

[Zhern]

I dont know if you can tell exactly what is happening here... this is something coming in the next build of MoreCore...
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=17192&d=1482827054
17192

Interesting, damned. Do you have those frames layered with the ability to toggle the visibility of them and all they contain?

[damned]

Interesting, damned. Do you have those frames layered with the ability to toggle the visibility of them and all they contain?

yes that is correct Zhern. I thought it might be something that could work for the unarmed combat screens that vodokar is working on...

The boxes you reference for vodokar are png images.

[Zhern]

Thanks, damned!

[vodokar]

Fixed the first one. 17203. Will do the same to the rest later.

Please forgive me. I'm going on about 3 hours sleep since yesterday, and had a nasty stomach bug over the weekend. Don't mean to be snarky at anyone. I am simply trying to find a solution to the valid concern Trenloe raised that won't cost me 50 hours of rework. There were valid reasons that I took the approach I did; but didn't realize the issues the Trenloe brought up; so trying to find a way to avoid that without throwing the baby out with the bathwater, as we say.

Zhern, sorry. Yes, I did see your post. It's nothing fancy, but thought it was nice for something different to set the percentages apart. Here is the icon: 17204. I originally got it from: 17206

And Damned, that is really a nice trick, which I would like to learn. Just not at this point, I don't think. Perhaps I'll consider doing a rework of this particular system after v 1.0. I'm totally insane right now with how much I had to go down the rabbit hole for this subsystem. You don't even want to know how many ways I tried and failed before finding a way that would work out for doing this; even if it isn't the best way, at least it does work. My original hope was to be able to do everything under the hood pulling as much data as I could from attacker and defender data; but could not get that to work and even if I could have, there would still be many modifiers that would have to be entered manually. Compared to this; the main combat code was extremely easy.

[Bidmaron]

Most DM's these days would not fret about telling the player the small details needed. I thought DM sealing of information behind a firewall was an old school thing. But, that is up to the DM, of course. As for me, personally, I would likely just go ahead and fill it out and then close it after the roll was made.
....

You are doing an old school ruleset....

And to me it is about immersion. The more your players have to worry about stats, the less immersive the experience. But there are a lot of different game philosophies.

[vodokar]

You are correct, Bidmaron. But, there is no way to totally disconnect this from the character and make it have any functionality. And while it is attached to the character, the player can see it, regardless of who fills the form out. That is a fact of computer life. It's not about philosophy, it's about practicality. No one would use this at all if they have to do all the calculations by hand; just like they didn't in pen and paper. If there is any hope that it will be used, it has to have the computer assume as much of the drudgery as possible; at the expense that the player might see a couple unimportant numbers. What can I say. Virtually every other piece of information on the worksheet would be things visible to the character anyways, like, is he wearing a helmet, is he wearing chain or leather armor etc. The couple of stats that do need to be entered, would have been done under the hood, if possible, but it didn't work out. They have to be entered manually. The player will see that. Sorry. I just couldn't make it work like you are expecting. I tried. But, I could not. Please, can we move on.

[Zhern]

Thanks, vodokar. You've done a lot of great work! Keep it up.

[vodokar]

Thank you, Zhern. Just wait, your turn is coming soon, lol. But, Zhern, why didn't you do it that way. At least you get to just make a Strength Check. I'm just trying to stay as faithful to the rules as possible. To someone out there, that will matter; even if trying to make a system like the unarmed combat system fit into a computer program feels like trying to stop the rain with a teaspoon.

[Zhern]

I believe the appropriate response to the question of why something wasn't done a certain way is "because it wasn't." Don't let it get to you.

[vodokar]

Had to step away and go take a hot shower. Nice and relaxed now. Everyone's points are valid. Even the things, Bidmartin was saying. I want that clear that I acknowledge that and appreciate your advice. At the same time, what Zhern said is right. I chose to do it the way I did because I had valid reasons. I ran into a wall in what I knew how to do. So, I found a way that would work. Maybe sometime I might be able to do something different. But, it won't be now.

[Varsuuk]

17034

How about this?

While I think that hand pic looks great artistically, I think it is all wrong for the character sheet.

I just went through all my old color scans of the Player Character Sheets (that orangy color with separately designed ones for Fighters/Ranger/Paladins, Rogue/Assassin, Cleric/Druid, Magic-User/Illusionist and of course, the pride of my old days - the flashy "permanent character record" sheets) and I was sooooo verklempt with nostalgia.

Note every last one of these made room on the reverse for a character's "Last Will and Testament" ... for reals, and we definitely lost more than a couple characters each in the old days. They had saving throws ... VERSUS DEATH... which if you failed, you usually... DIED.

Now... get off my lawn... I'm starting to sound like one of them... sigh...

[Varsuuk]

Oops lol... I left my screen without updating and I was replying to a post like 3 pages back - ignore me :) carry on...

[Varsuuk]

Thank you, Zhern. Just wait, your turn is coming soon, lol. But, Zhern, why didn't you do it that way. At least you get to just make a Strength Check. I'm just trying to stay as faithful to the rules as possible. To someone out there, that will matter; even if trying to make a system like the unarmed combat system fit into a computer program feels like trying to stop the rain with a teaspoon.

I used those rules... albeit not everyone at all the tables I was at was WITH me on it, but I used em.
In fact, I might go so far as to say I missed them ;P

Heck, I know they were unwieldy, but I liked what was behind it. I also liked not being limited to 5% chance increments, really for most rolls you didn't even have 20 separate possible rolls to check outcome on. Only needed 18 rolls since one was auto hit and other automiss.

In my 1E days, 1 was auto miss but 20 wasn't auto-hit ;P, sure it usually did... but... sometimes you had to roll 2 twenties in a row or have a nat20 + some other bonus...


Btw, eventually I wrote a BASIC program on my PC1 portable "computer" (i.e., calculator) to handle the Overbearing/Pummeling/etc rules.

[vodokar]

Hey, Var. Missed hearing from you. That's really cool that you actually used the unarmed system.

Here's the thing. It is level independent. If my 1st level fighter came out of the tavern not wearing his armor but carrying a sword and got cornered by a 12th level thief trying to kill me, there is a greater chance I could wrestle him to the ground than hit him with my sword. On the other hand, if my 12th level fighter wearing platemail forgot his sword in the tavern and faced the thief's level one apprentice, give it up --- wearing heavy armor makes your wrestling skills virtually impossible.

Actually, however, there is one critical dangerous step to avoid though, before the grapple attack can actually take place. In the 1st level fighter vs. the 12 level armed thief scenario, before the fighter get's to make his grapple attack, the thief gets a "ward off" strike with his sword. if he hits, he does no damage, but wards the fighter out of grapple distance. So, that balances the scenario somewhat.

In a pummel situation, on the other hand, trying to pummel someone wearing heavy armor is virtually useless, and isn't so easy while your wearing it either.

Yes, the rules are unwieldy. But, they make a lot of sense. Something that other more streamlined systems, just won't be, because they don't try to be.

The way I see it is this. Just like his books, somewhere in the stream of consciousness messiness of the unarmed combat system lies genius.

You'll find many people that believe the DMG is the worst rpg book ever written, but many also find genius in those pages spread amongst what might seem nonsense at first glance. That's why some were glad to "progress" in the rpg world; while others even today hold up 1st edition as the only edition they ever really need. All a matter of opinion. It's good to have choices. That's why I'm here doing this. To keep those choices alive.

Oh, yeah. And I love the thing about the last will and testament. HMMM.

[Bidmaron]

Hey vodokar, sorry, buddy. You have almost completed what few have done -make a ruleset. I was having a philosophical discussion. What you have done is amazing. Ignore me, please. I am a nuke and by nature am never satisfied.

[vodokar]

I also was a nuke. Small world. Orlando Class 8905. So, you know, when I said I tried, it means I tried harder than most would, and will likely try again someday to reach the goal you have outlined, because the devil is in the details and just can't let something go until it's perfect. Oh, and sorry for misspelling your name.

[Bidmaron]

Orlando, class 8405. TENNESSEE, PENNSYLVANIA, PHOENIX, TOLEDO, DALLAS.

[vodokar]

USS Nimitz CVN-68, USS Frank Cable AS-40. 12 years active and a couple years after that in the reserves. After a while the hours got to me and just couldn't handle doing the 20. Sometimes regret that, but, that was long ago. Not a day I don't still feel a part of the community though. What an experience that was; the good, the bad. It's all still a part of me every day.

[Bidmaron]

Made it to 28 years. Hours were tough, as you say, but my wife is a sport. Anyway, loved it while it lasted.

[vodokar]

Again, IAW Trenloe's feedback, making it easier for the weary DM to keep track of what window is what. 17216. NPC subwindows also named for the npc which spawned them.

[Bidmaron]

Looking great!

[vodokar]

I spent most of the day testing, tweaking and adding features to the combat engine code. Found and fixed a major issue that I had overlooked, then began adding features.

It now supports Characters, Monsters and NPC Characters.

For Monsters and NPC's, the DM will have the option of verbose combat statistic reporting [(For Monsters: HD, TN vs. AC, Hit or Miss) (For NPC's: Lvl, Class, TN vs. AC, Hit or Miss) by turning on "Show GM Rolls" or silent combat statistic supporting [For Monsters or NPC's: Hit or Miss only] by turning off "Show GM Rolls".

Ideally, I would like to make this more granular with a new option not tied to the GM rolls, but for now, this should work out well. I knew that DM's would want the option to hide that information from the players, but it was important to have a mode they could go to in order to see the information reported to make sure the combat code is working as intended. That is necessary for a system that is doing table lookups vice simply comparing the number rolled vs the targets AC. It was critical in my testing of the code and I wanted individual DM's to have that ability to see what was being outputted.

Something I slipped onto the character sheet yesterday was a rollable surprise number box. As you would expect for AD&D, it rolls a d6 with 1-2 being the normal range of being surprised. IAW, AD&D rules, this would be rolled by only one character for the entire party (the character which is most advantageous). I have not currently added this feature to npc's, however. So, the DM will need to roll a d6 directly for the bad guy side.

At this point, the code is basically complete for version 1.0.

I still have some cosmetic items I need to finish up. Other than that, it is essentially ready.

There is one issue I wanted to raise. Mr. Davison offered to me to have Smiteworks look over the project for possibly becoming an official ruleset. I have no idea what the turn around time frame for this process would be. As I have easily put 300 to 400 hours into the project at this point, I think it is a good idea I take the offer to do that, however. Hopefully, regardless of the outcome of that, it will not be a long wait.

In the meantime, I am already beginning to line up and work on related projects. My vision for this ruleset always has been that it will not be a one and done thing, but will have a supporting ecosystem of adventure modules and such. Nothing would make me happier than to see this game thrive into the future.

There are tons of 3rd party adventure modules out there which are AD&D compatible and new things coming out all the time. I am starting with a series of 4 modules by a relatively small 3rd party publisher that look really good. I already touched base with the publisher, who expressed interest, and let Doug know about my plans. After that, I have in mind possibly working on one of the AD&D compatible mega-dungeons that have come out in the past few years.

[vodokar]

After thinking on this for several days, I have decided to forgo the offer of going thru the review process to get this ruleset into the store.

The main reasons are 1) I have no idea what turn around time would be (days, weeks or months) and 2) I am sure that there would be certain stipulations on how the ruleset were presented (not legal issues, but more trying to keep SmiteWorks from ruffling the feathers of their main source of income), in light of working around the agreement with Wizards of the Coast, that I do not have to adhere to if it is a community ruleset; a compromise I decided I am not willing to make.

The main downside, for me, is that in doing so, I don't have a guaranteed way to obtain any income, no matter how small, from the unbelievable hard work that I have put in - and I don't say that lightly, as I put in an average of 6 hours each night on top of my 10 hour shift day job to get this accomplished in 2 months. It isn't that I ever expected to make much anyway, as I know the user base for an older ruleset is small, and it certainly wasn't the main reason I took on the project.

However, as I am only a blue collar worker in the center of the country trying to eek out a living for my family in one of the worst economies ever and with a 16 year old aspiring to go to college in a couple of years, it would be greatly appreciated if people would consider donating something thru the only means I will have available.

Regarding the ruleset, I will release later tonight. Look for a new release thread. My baby is leaving the nest. I sincerely hope you like what you see. I'm sure it isn't perfect, but I poured my heart and soul into it. I'll be actively supporting it for years to come and taking feature requests.

Lastly, thank you for everyone that supported me, both morale support and technical help. Thank you especially to Trenloe and Damned. What great guys. I could never have done it without your mentorship. Mere words could never express.

[Trenloe]

Regarding the ruleset, I will release later tonight. Look for a new release thread. My baby is leaving the nest.
Very exciting! :)

[vodokar]

I zipped the ruleset to .zip using the program 7-zip and then changed .zip to .pak. I can't get the ruleset to run due to not finding base.xml. It works unzipped error free, but not as a pak file. What went wrong?

[vodokar]

We *****Really***** need a Face Palm emote. Really.

I zipped the entire folder into the zip file and not just the files, duh.

[Bidmaron]

You can't zip the folder. Select all the files in the folder and then zip.

[vodokar]

Yeah. Got it. Thanks

[Bidmaron]

I have done that more times than I care to admit. Why the friggin' program doesn't ask you if you know what you are doing when you do a folder is just crappy software design....

[Trenloe]

Why the friggin' program doesn't ask you if you know what you are doing when you do a folder is just crappy software design....
Are you actually complaining about a generic compression application checking that you're doing the right process for Fantasy Grounds? There are plenty of users who would need to compress a whole directory, not just the contents inside.

If that is your complaint then I suggest you contact your chosen compression software company and explain why they have "crappy software design."

[Bidmaron]

Trenloe, this was not a beef with FG. I see no reason why you would ever need to compress the folder itself when it is the files that matter. I'm just saying that when I compress a folder, what I really want is to compress the contents of that folder. There is very little reason to compress the folder itself, and I think decent software should ask you if that is really what you want. I certainly didn't mean to piss off anyone here.

[Trenloe]

Trenloe, this was not a beef with FG. I see no reason why you would ever need to compress the folder itself when it is the files that matter. I'm just saying that when I compress a folder, what I really want is to compress the contents of that folder. There is very little reason to compress the folder itself, and I think decent software should ask you if that is really what you want. I certainly didn't mean to piss off anyone here.
I know it wasn't a beef with FG, but I hate it when people bandy around stuff like "crappy software design" when they are looking at things from their own very biased viewpoint and not looking at the big picture. All compression applications work in a very similar way - and there's a good reason for that: they mimic the operating system's base file handling. Imagine if, using Windows explorer for example, you selected a directory and moved it somewhere but only the files inside the directory were moved - you selected the directory, why didn't the directory move? The same for zipping up directories - if you select the directory the whole directory is zipped and the original file structure is kept. If you didn't want to ZIP the directory then don't select it! It's a simple process - Computers aren't mind readers - they do what you tell them to do.

Plus, just because you think there is "little reason" to compress the directory itself, doesn't mean that others don't want to compress a whole directory. Maybe they want to keep the directory structure, but want to name the resulting ZIP file something different? There can be plenty of reasons why someone would want to compress the directory within a ZIP file - I do it quite a lot, and would be exceedingly annoyed if the compression software didn't work the same as the base operating system file handling. If I select a directory I want that directory included in the process, if I didn't then I wouldn't have selected it!

[Trenloe]

And I knew that we'd had this raised before: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?21440-Request-for-help-ext-to-zip-and-then-back-to-ext-again-fails-to-work&p=179512&viewfull=1#post179512

Another example of "I want this to do what I think I want it to do (read my mind), not what I'm actually telling it to do."

[Bidmaron]

We obviously disagree, Trenloe, but that's okay and healthy. I just think it's not too much to ask a user if he wants to compress the folder also, or just its contents, with the "Check this box to bypass this question in the future" approach.

Also, the fact that another user had it since the prior thread was what made me react. And I doubt it will be the last time this problem occurs

[Andraax]

If I tell a program to archive a directory, and it archives the contents of that directory instead of what I told it to do, I would be pissed and never use that software again.

[Bidmaron]

Andraax, you are not paying attention. I simply suggested that the software ask you if you want the directory included, with the now-typical 'X this box not to answer this question again' kind of thing.

Remember, most of the business of compression software is to actually reduce the size of what you are compressing. What better way to do that than eliminate the top-level directory that in 99% of cases adds no value? The directory can be re-created upon decompression, and you have actually saved 100% of the size of the directory itself. Why is that too much to ask for God's sake? And why am I getting attacked? I answered the OP's post and offered the opinion that decent software would not have caused the problem, and I stand by that assertion. I am not asking for the software to read my mind, and I am certainly not saying the software should do something you didn't request without asking.

I could understand the attacks if I were griping about FG, but I'm not.

[Andraax]

The upper level directory is just an entry in the TOC for the ZIP file, so it takes up a few bytes at most. And if I tell software to archive a directory, and it stops and asks me if that's what I want to do, that's just as bad. I would be pissed at that as well.

The difference is that I expect a computer to do what I tell it to do. Your philosophy seems to be "have the computer tell me that I'm stupid and do something else."

I guess the difference comes from decades of experience with computers. I always expect a machine to do what I tell it to do - no more and no less. If I want to archive the *contents* of a directory, I will tell it to do that.

And, BTW, 99% of the time I prefer to archive the entire directory structure, including the top level directory. I think the model that FG uses is a bit weird.

[Trenloe]

Also, the fact that another user had it since the prior thread was what made me react. And I doubt it will be the last time this problem occurs
There's a process to follow, so follow the process. The issue is not the compression software, which is working the way 99.999% of people who use it expect it to work. It was just that the person using it wasn't aware of what the FG requirement was, now they know they should be fine using their chose compression software the way it was desiged. Do you really want application developers to have popup windows asking if you really want to do what you've selected - even with a "of course I wanted to do that, don't tell me again" option it would be incredibly annoying.

There's a good reason why a lot of people would want to ZIP a folder, hence why software doesn't ask you if you actually want to do that. If you were zipping from within a folder, would you want a message saying "Hey, are you sure you really want to do this? Would you like to include the folder as well?" No, of course you wouldn't - or maybe you would? It's Industry standard to not ask users if they want to do something, unless that process is deleting/overwriting data or exiting the application.

This is just an example of how people immediately jump on something they don't fully appreciate saying it's "bad software design" - usually because they don't understand the industry standard or the requirements of users other than themselves. Like your post around this two years ago: "Only Microsuck could think that if you select to zip a folder you want to nest it inside another folder. This is yet another example of why i am continuously mystified how those bastards stay in business." Which I was mystified by as the process you describe is pretty standard for all file handling applications, across all platforms - not just Microsoft.

I've seen this too many times on these forums - normally relating to Fantasy Grounds, but the theory is the same, and it annoys the hell out of me. Hence why I'm jumping on this specific example, because it is even more extreme in it's case - calling an industry standard process bad design?!? No, its not. You know the process, follow it. And if you keep forgetting, please don't complain about it on these forums. Thanks.

[Bidmaron]

Andraax, we could compare resumes and see who has the most experience, but I am not interested in a flame war and did not initiate any personal attacks here.

Asking a user one time whether he wants to include the top-level directory is hardly something to lose a microsecond of emotion over (cause you just 'X' the block if that is what you always want). Every software I have ever used to decompress makes me tell it where to put it, and I can create the directory if I want then (but the best software would make it for me after having asked whether to include the wasteful top-level directory and not force me to do it).

I am glad you never make a mistake and always tell the computer exactly what you want it to do. I think software has started to improve to the point where it can recognize that a user is doing something he might not really intend, and I think this is one of those cases. Reasonable people can disagree though....

For the record, you will note that, in most cases, I defend FG against the mind-reading threads (look here (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?35757-Pathfinder-ruleset-upgrades&highlight=), for example). I have less patience for giants like Microsoft that should do better and have the resources to do so.

[Andraax]

I am glad you never make a mistake and always tell the computer exactly what you want it to do.

I never said that I don't make mistakes. However, when I make them, I don't blame the software or the software developer for not reading my mind, I acknowledge that I made a mistake.

[Bidmaron]

Can we just drop this, Trenloe? You are a luminary here, and I am sorry to have offended you. Voicing my opinion about a third party tool twice in two years hardly seems worthy of the time we've spent on this. My deepest regret is having wasted so much of your time, since you do so many great things for all of us. I will try to remember in the future that the forum prevents voicing opinions about third party software....

[LordEntrails]

Nvm

[Varsuuk]

So, back to AD&D ... V, are there any things you want most exercised in testing?

This weekend, I'll try to load up a map and input couple monsters and PCs to recreate a combat with perhaps some other things like using thief skills and of course my brawny Fighter is gonna jump up on some orc and pummel his butt...well..head more likely...I hope.

[Zhern]

So uh, great job, vodokar! I'm really impressed with what you've enabled the ruleset to do. It has also given me a few ideas too (such as the custom icons you used for the character sheet, separating out your code into separate files instead of incorporating it into the file you intended to modify (good organization - I wish I had thought of that but now I have a bunch of cleanup and decoupling to do).

Really great job! You should be proud of yourself.

[vodokar]

Regarding the "operation of said 3rd party software", as I said, it was a facepalm moment. I knew immediately what I had done when I examined the zip file. It was late and I didn't engage brain first. Nuff said.

Thanks so much, Zhern. I had a great time working on it.

As for testing. Well, just play normally and let me know if any errors crop up. There's already some good C&C adventures to try out, one that came free.

And I'm hard at work on the first official AD&D adventure, which will also be backwards compatible with C&C. Pretty nifty feature, thanks to Damned's original idea.

I would especially like to know if there are any issues with anything regarding the C&C material compatibility, because, in theory, it should all be 100%, and if it isn't, I need to track down any issues with that.

[Trenloe]

separating out your code into separate files instead of incorporating it into the file you intended to modify (good organization - I wish I had thought of that but now I have a bunch of cleanup and decoupling to do).
Just remember to keep copies of the original files you got the code from - then you can do a quick compare of future C&C releases and get an idea if there might be some new code you may need to integrate into the ruleset.