Tech Question

[Dragontail]

So I currently run fantasy grounds over 2 - 24" Samsung monitors. With the black friday deals coming up I was thinking of expanding that to a 40" Sharp tv (LC-40LCLB480U) Anyone have any experience with this and how it looks resolution wise? I know my new video card can handle it im just wondering on how it will look with my crappy nearsightness?

[JohnD]

Occasionally I run a game from my laptop when I'm visiting family. On these occasions I plug into an old-ish 42" tv of lower quality and use it as the primary display and my laptop as secondary. Everything is fine with respect to how things look IMO.

One thing to know is that you don't really gain much in the way of screen real estate IMO... just everything is bigger and easier to read (which may mean you can make some things smaller and gain extra space that way).

[Dragontail]

hmm using that method i could set the 40" up (with a pc account called GM) and have it on wall facing players while I see my the actual GM on my 2 regular screens...hmmm interesting. What resoultion do you run the TV at?

[gqwebb]

Run the DM session on 3 monitors a 19" a 24" and another 19" (hated the line in the middle with just 2 monitors). Put them all together with amd catalyst eyefinity !! one massive canvas of tables, maps, character cards. its just like a messy table!

[Andraax]

One thing to know is that you don't really gain much in the way of screen real estate IMO... just everything is bigger and easier to read

Which means I don't have to use my reading glasses... :-)

[gqwebb]

Right, And now 4k is out but at this point my eyes cant even enjoy it. The joy of becoming an old fart.

[JohnD]

hmm using that method i could set the 40" up (with a pc account called GM) and have it on wall facing players while I see my the actual GM on my 2 regular screens...hmmm interesting. What resoultion do you run the TV at?

Well, I was using my friend's setup - I didn't change anything and I think the laptop's resolution is 16*9 or something like that, but it scales to whatever the tv displays AFAIK.

[HoloGnome]

I regularly run local/live/CON games on a 1080p 43" TV and it works very well. I can show a full map at nearly 1" squares. The only drawback is that Fantasy Grounds does not have any font size preferences for on-screen text. So, the combat tracker and chat window are very hard for players to read at the table. I use the monitor in extended mode with a 1080p laptop and a local loop-back FG client to connect to myself. I have considered hacking in a font change, but I would really prefer some kind of basic font settings, or even an automatic font scaler where you enter the size/resolution of the target display, because 4K is going to have the same issue (probably worse, actually, given the pixel density and lack of OS/FG scaling). I like the idea of a 4K monitor, since I am always running out of window room in FG, but haven't tried it and don't have the graphics card support at the moment.

xazil is a good reference for 4K & FG, since he uses one.

If you go 4K, get the biggest monitor you can afford to help mitigate FG's font scaling issues. Hopefully that will improve in the future. At 1080p, you are fighting a pixel size vs. monitor size issue for text clarity. So, going larger will increase the text size, but also increase its blockiness. At 43", I can read the text if I am within, say, 4 feet, if that helps, but wish it were bigger.

Good luck!

[LindseyFan]

Big screens are nice for sharing things with others, but I used a large 4K TV for a primary monitor for a few weeks and it hurt my neck. I had to physically move my head to see things instead of just my eyes.

[Trenloe]

So I currently run fantasy grounds over 2 - 24" Samsung monitors. With the black friday deals coming up I was thinking of expanding that to a 40" Sharp tv (LC-40LCLB480U)
Do not use this as your main (only) monitor that you will use to GM. That is 1080p resolution and so you'll not get much clarity when you sit close to it - unless you're planning on sitting a little way away from it.

Others have mentioned in this thread using a large TV as an additional monitor to display to the players. I use a large TV laid flat on the table (with a perspex insert over the screen to prevent scratches) and this has a second instance of FG running that I use to display maps to the players in face-to-face games. You can size maps to be approx 1 square = 1 inch and use minis (or FG tokens if you wish) directly on the TV. I created an extension that makes sizing of maps easier: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?33834-Map-resize-to-TV-resolution-for-Face-To-Face-games There are some pictures of what the TV looks like in that thread.

Originally I found a cheap 43" TV - as this equated to 50 pixels per inch (which is what I usually use for FG maps). However, when viewing closely (which you do when playing face-to-face with it on a table) the resolution wasn't great for sharp looking images. So, I managed to find a reconditioned 48" 4K TV (I wanted 48 inch as this allows a 24x36 map - quite common for RPG flip-maps etc.) to be fully viewed, and this being 4K the additional resolution makes it look great when viewing up close. I can now run face-to-face games in the local store with my TV and SurfacePro, and I don't have to take dozens of flip-maps along, or take time to print out maps before play. It's reduced my prep time significantly, and gives me more flexibility in game (once I created a bunch of map modules from my PDFs). The one downside, as already mentioned in this thread, is the size of the fonts - running on a 4K TV pretty much makes it impossible to view text.

Here's me running a face-to-face Star Wars EotE game at a local store:

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=16582

[LordEntrails]

Big screens are nice for sharing things with others, but I used a large 4K TV for a primary monitor for a few weeks and it hurt my neck. I had to physically move my head to see things instead of just my eyes.

Gotta move it farther away:)
(Which negates the smaller fonts you can use!)

[HoloGnome]

Flat mode is definitely nice, especially since the profile of flat screens has been getting thinner and thinner. I have talked with others in my area who have had similar solutions. My 43" looks great, in general, and has been very functional for table games for most maps. I tend to build my maps on 75x75 grids or 100x100 for smaller maps, and all tokens are 150x150.

The only issues are text size/readability and players who really prefer to use minis. I definitely have my eyes peeled for 1080p and 4K deals over the next few days. I'm hoping for something in the 48-55" range. I will probably end up with a 1080p 55", depending on price, although I would love the extra screen real estate of a 4K. Also, it has to fit in my car and be easily portable - more constraints.

However, at 4K, I would then have to buy a new laptop, which is not really in the works at the moment. I also wonder about elevation at the table and thermal flow, since the TVs use passive cooling and expect vertical or quasi-vertical orientation for convection cooling to work as designed.

Trenloe - have you had any thermal issues using your monitor in a flat orientation? I guess it really depends on thermal efficiency and heat dissipation in the monitor design.

[LordEntrails]

If you really want portability, then I would suggest you consider a short throw projector. With a tripod like setup (though I would use 4 legs, not 3) you can get really good portability and I bet the cost would be much less. You do end up with the issue of shadows, but I think the cost and portability might just be very appealing.

[LordEntrails]

Brightness is a big concern with the second one here, but very inspiring possibilities; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIQMq9MeBMY

[HoloGnome]

The projectors look interesting, but the only way a projector would work is in the context of something like a Reactable (bottom-up projection). Otherwise, too much hassle. It would take a translucent tabletop and hope that nobody kicks the thing underneath.

[damned]

If you really want portability, then I would suggest you consider a short throw projector. With a tripod like setup (though I would use 4 legs, not 3) you can get really good portability and I bet the cost would be much less. You do end up with the issue of shadows, but I think the cost and portability might just be very appealing.

Why would you ever choose 4 legs over 3 unless when running?

[Nylanfs]

This is what I'm planning

https://imgur.com/gallery/FJN4B

[LordEntrails]

Why would you ever choose 4 legs over 3 unless when running?
one to each corner of the table.

[Caethial]

I'm planning on building a table (with 40" 1080p TV built in) in the next couple weeks, specifically to use FG with my upcoming home game, the only issue i have is that i really wish there was a way to do full screen maps with Fantasy Grounds, since we'll all be around the table, and the players will be using minis and paper sheets (or digital on tablets) we really don't need the "player" side of the functionality, so using the player client as simply a map with the masking functionality was really all we want.

[LindseyFan]

Hopefully I didn't miss the reply, but I was wondering about the heat issues with a tv solution. (someone has been bugging me to find out)

[Caethial]

Hopefully I didn't miss the reply, but I was wondering about the heat issues with a tv solution. (someone has been bugging me to find out)

depending on if its sitting ontop of the table, or built in, i could see there being some issues, i'm building mine with essentially an open area below the TV, with a tv wall mount bracket to hold it in place horizontally, so it will allow some decent air flow.

[Myrdin Potter]

I managed to snag a 40" 1080P TV for $125 from Amazon over the sale weekend. I played once with my group using a TV lying flat on my table (they all came in town for my birthday) and it worked well, but we all logged in via FG and used tokens and they read text on their screen.

I will be building myself a table and embedding the new, cheap TV into it.

[Nylanfs]

Throw some small pancake fans in the bottom if it's enclosed.

[Trenloe]

... the only issue i have is that i really wish there was a way to do full screen maps with Fantasy Grounds, since we'll all be around the table, and the players will be using minis and paper sheets (or digital on tablets) we really don't need the "player" side of the functionality, so using the player client as simply a map with the masking functionality was really all we want.
You can do this easily and is how I use FG in face-to-face games. See my screenshot in post #10 of this thread, and this extension might help some too (but is not required): https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?33834-Map-resize-to-TV-resolution-for-Face-To-Face-games

Images/Maps in FG open on top of the desktop, so you just resize the map window to take up the whole screen.

[Caethial]

yeah that should work, seems like it should be something that's core functionality, not something the community had to create, but good on you for doing it!

[Trenloe]

Trenloe - have you had any thermal issues using your monitor in a flat orientation? I guess it really depends on thermal efficiency and heat dissipation in the monitor design.
I've done testing around this - TV on showing a nice big map for 24 hours and it worked fine. Even with a complete wooden surround around the TV. The main thing that got hot was the HDMI cable I was using so need to look for a good quality, 4K capable cable for my Surface Pro 3. I think there might be some heat issues if the ambient temperature was high (above 80F/27C), so I'm in the process of putting a couple of 3 inch USB powered fans onto the wooden surround I've made - these plug into the USB ports on the TV to provide air flow under the TV.

My TV is 48 inch 4K - which works out at a great resolution for up close viewing and fits a standard "flip" map PDF image that are 36"x24" (like the Paizo flip maps). It also just fits under my arm - great for carrying from the car to the store with one hand free to open doors, etc.. Any larger and I wouldn't be able to fit it under my arm. So, 48 inch, 4K is perfect for my requirements - portability, screen dimensions and resolution.

[Trenloe]

yeah that should work, seems like it should be something that's core functionality, not something the community had to create, but good on you for doing it!
Base Fantasy Grounds allows you to view a map full screen and zoom in/out to make it exactly the size that you want. The only thing my extension does is allow quick exact 1 inch grid sizing on a specific size TV - you don't need it at all to do what you mentioned: "the only issue i have is that i really wish there was a way to do full screen maps with Fantasy Grounds" - Fantasy Grounds can do this.

[Caethial]

sorry, i should have been more detailed, by full screen, i mean true full screen, where the unity window is constrained by the map window, meaning cant accidentally resize etc.

[Trenloe]

sorry, i should have been more detailed, by full screen, i mean true full screen, where the unity window is constrained by the map window, meaning cant accidentally resize etc.
Sorry, I'm confused by what you mean by this. Can you provide more details? e.g. What you're trying to do? What is the use case?

[Caethial]

just the ability to maximize the map window inside the fantasy grounds unity window to be completely full screen, so that it can't be resized or moved, without having to manually move and adjust the window to "appear" full screen. think windows explorer, minimize, resize or maximize are all options.

[Trenloe]

just the ability to maximize the map window inside the fantasy grounds unity window to be completely full screen, so that it can't be resized or moved, without having to manually move and adjust the window to "appear" full screen. think windows explorer, minimize, resize or maximize are all options.
OK, that can't be done. You still have to manually do a quick resize on the screen to make the map fill the window. My extension also doesn't do this, it adjusts the map zoom to have the right pixel size for the specific TV being used, to give 1 inch on the TV = 1 grid on the map, so that the map on the TV will be the right size of minis being placed on the TV screen.

However, based off your earlier comment (players sitting around the table and using minis) I'm struggling to see how useful this will be if you're using minis on top of the TV, with the TV showing the map? If this is the case, completely filling the TV screen with the map would require that the GM has previously resized all of the maps they might possibly use to make sure that when they are maximised that the grid would be the right size for the minis. Maps can be all shapes and sizes, so I'm struggling to understand how this would work and provide useful map functionality for all of the maps a GM might use.

If you don't like doing a one-off manual resize, then you're much better off just using the extension that I created and moving the map around as required.

Keep in mind that FG was not designed to be used as a face-to-face mapping tool, it's a Virtual Table Top! It's just us community members exploring the possibilities for our own niche requirements, and the lowering prices of projectors and flat-screen TVs, that has led to people using FG face-to-face more and wanting functionality specific to TVs-as-maps. Maybe the functionality provided by my TV size extension will be included in a future release of FG, but it's definitely a niche requirement not a mainstream one.

If you want to make a feature request of this, so the devs can review and decide on whether they can implement in future, please log a request here: https://fg2app.idea.informer.com/proj/

[Caethial]

I really like the solution you came up with in your extension, and think that will work nicely to ensure the 1" grid, and i do plan on using it, i also do plan on making my own maps. I know its not currently possible, which is why i said i wish there was a way to do it, i realize that this is a "niche" request, and i'm sure i'm not the first person to come up with it, i'll put in the feature request and cross my fingers for a future release.

[HoloGnome]

Some comments:

1. TVs are designed for convection cooling in vertical orientation. If you install a large-screen TV horizontally, you can reasonably expect that you are defeating its cooling solution (which may or may not be a problem, depending on circumstances, installation and environment). If necessary, you should account for this change in orientation or potentially expect reduced life or other issues in the event that overheating occurs (again, depending on your local install/environment). Active draw on the "upper" vents of the TV will probably address this issue and is easy enough to fabricate and power using a bar of regular ATX case fans or other stylized cooling including using minimal fans and a shaped vent. Digikey/Mouser are also good sources for custom DC fans.

2. 40" is on the small side for a table install and will mean smaller grid sizes in order to show the whole map. 48" would be better, especially if you're going to go to the trouble of building a table. The issue has to do with grid size vs. monitor size vs. mini size. At 48", you should be able to get a 1" mini grid in most cases and have nice-looking maps without needing to scroll. Minis can fit on slightly smaller ones, so it might not be a big deal - do some up-front testing, if you haven't already. I have been using a 43" for the past year and noticed that the squares were typically <1" on my map using a grid that lets me see the whole map. I just upgraded to a 48" and usually show the whole map on screen (or in the case of very large maps, will split them to eliminate the need for scrolling).

3. If you want the benefit of using on-screen tokens for map orientation, then you will probably need to live with Fantasy Grounds' window zooming/scaling idiosyncrasies (including the fact that the current app cannot minimize). If you don't care about on-screen tokens and other FG client features showing on the table (since you are using standard minis) and just want the map to show, then you can always show the map image (.jpg) using any other well-behaved graphical application, including a browser window. You will still run the server instance of FG to manage the combat, etc. and can translate the NPC locations to your live-action minis on the dead map. Resizing FG maps is not a huge deal, providing you don't mind dragging them around to see other content. So, you're probably still better off just using FG to do it, even though you don't have minimize/maximize support and may have to move them around to see other stuff.