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Dr0W
October 20th, 2016, 15:38
I've just stumbled upon this kickstarter: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/hobbyte/dungeon-builder-an-isometric-map-maker-for-role-pl

Downloaded the free Demo and even created a map myself. I'm just not sure if isometric maps are a great idea to use on FG, but they are surely beautiful. The demo is very, very easy to use and I really loved it but it lacks the export map so far (had to use some microsoft paintbrush-fu)

15774

Trenloe
October 20th, 2016, 15:52
Interesting. Thanks for sharing.

I think I'll stick with Perspectives 3 for CC3+ for now: https://secure.profantasy.com/products/per3_video.asp However, if this KS really "kicks" and gets to the final "Extra: Top Down View" stretch goal I might take a look again. Saved to look at later...

Dr0W
October 20th, 2016, 16:13
Interesting. Thanks for sharing.

I think I'll stick with Perspectives 3 for CC3+ for now: https://secure.profantasy.com/products/per3_video.asp However, if this KS really "kicks" and gets to the final "Extra: Top Down View" stretch goal I might take a look again. Saved to look at later...

Back in the day I had the chance to use CC3 on a friend's computer. The maps he made were really awesome, mine looked like a potato. One of the things I really loved about the Dungeon Builder was that it was really, really simple to use. However this CC3 perspective video also seems to be pretty easy, and as much as the black & white maps look great I really prefer the colored ones like this.

Trenloe
October 20th, 2016, 16:37
CC3 definitely takes getting used to - but it is time well spent (IMHO).

Reading more on dungeon builder, you have to spend approx $300 (Indie Builder) to get a license that allows you to distribute maps you create "which allows you to use maps made in Dungeon builder professionally (included in published material)." I don't see anything about community commons/free (non-professional) distribution (e.g. sharing on this forum). But "published material" could be construed as a free FG module - such as the great mods Zacchaeus puts together. For example: http://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?26028-Zacchaeus-Out-of-the-Abyss-Map-mod

LordEntrails
October 20th, 2016, 16:55
CC3 definitely takes getting used to - but it is time well spent (IMHO).

Reading more on dungeon builder, you have to spend approx $300 (Indie Builder) to get a license that allows you to distribute maps you create "which allows you to use maps made in Dungeon builder professionally (included in published material)." I don't see anything about community commons/free (non-professional) distribution (e.g. sharing on this forum). But "published material" could be construed as a free FG module - such as the great mods Zacchaeus puts together. For example: http://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?26028-Zacchaeus-Out-of-the-Abyss-Map-mod

$300 to be able to publish what you make with it seems really expensive. I don't think any of the leading tools do that. I know CC has always said you can do what you want with the maps you make using their tool and symbols. Just can't resell their symbols etc. PSP, Dunjinni etc don't as far as I know either.

But, it's not the first time I've seen a Kickstarter do a similar pricing scheme. I find it interesting.

Nylanfs
October 20th, 2016, 18:00
I doubt that would hold up in a court of law...

Dr0W
October 20th, 2016, 18:26
I think the $300 is required only if you plan to monetize your creations. Virtual Battlemap also has something like that and I've talked to the VBM devs and they clearly stated that you can do whatever you want to your maps, you can give them for free, post on whatever forums you want. But if you want to sell your maps, you have to pay for that kind of license.

LordEntrails
October 20th, 2016, 18:30
It would hold up in law, imo, as long as they clearly state what their licensing is. Effectively it would be something like a creative commons, free use only license.

I know other do such licensing restrictions. I just find it interesting that it seems to be only the new/little map companies do these types of restrictions. The big players don't.

Trenloe
October 20th, 2016, 18:39
Yeah, the fact that they call it a "personal" license kinda speaks as to what it's for - personal use, not public (sharing etc.). It's a fine line between sharing on forums and then posting (for free) on DMsGuild, but that is an actual product and the Indie/Pro license specifically lists such products needing the upgraded license. So, what's the difference between posting maps made with Dungeon Builder for zero cost on DMsGuild and making available for free on the FG forums? Very little...

Maybe someone who's backed the kickstarter can ask that question in the comments? They might need to clarify/re-align their licensing model.

Trenloe
October 20th, 2016, 18:49
To expands on this - it is a frequent conversation on these forums about copyright, etc. where some people think that copyright is not broken if the material is shared for free. This is not the case. If the owner of copyright protected material doesn't give permission to publicly share their material then you can't. For example, most major RPG publishers won't allow you to share any of the material from their products - even for zero cost. Some provide a specific license to do so (OGL, Community commons, etc.) which covers a small part of the material and usually doesn't include story, artwork, etc..

Likewise, images provided in a mapping application are the property of the copyright owner (their intellectual property) unless otherwise stated. If they don't want you to publicly display/share maps created with that intellectual property then that is within their rights.

The fact that the kickstarter owner has provided three levels of licensing (personal, indie and pro) suggests that they recognise these differences (and material ownership) and that the personal is just that: for personal use. But, would be good for them to confirm.

Nylanfs
October 20th, 2016, 19:14
This is kind of the same thing as saying that you can't monetize a book you wrote with MS Word, or having to pay the paint brush company before selling a painting. They are tools, what you do with those tools are your property and yours to decide what do do with it.

Trenloe
October 20th, 2016, 19:24
This is kind of the same thing as saying that you can't monetize a book you wrote with MS Word, or having to pay the paint brush company before selling a painting. They are tools, what you do with those tools are your property and yours to decide what do do with it.
I see where you're coming from, but you're missing the point and have not digested what I said about copyright material in my previous post - in this case the artwork that comes with the application. If you wrote a book using MS Word but included passages from another book that was copyright protected then you'd be breaking copyright if you shared the book - not with Microsoft, but with the owner of the material you used.

This is a map making tool - that comes with a lot of map making artwork - and the owner is specifically saying you need different licenses to share maps created using this artwork. If you use the map making tool with all of your own artwork then you'd be fine to share the map as all graphical art used is your own work (including the resulting map). As I mentioned in my previous post, it is the material included with the application (artwork in this case) that is copyright protected as far as sharing results produced by the application. Of course the base application is covered by copyright as well, but we're not discussing distributing the base application.

LordEntrails
October 20th, 2016, 19:26
They are tools, but they contain copyrightable artwork (the symbols, artwork etc). So they are different. It's like using MS Word and then using a copyrighted font that you don't have license to use. One could say that using MS Word and a public domain font like Times New Roman you could create the same output in many different tools (Open Office, Libre Office etc) therefore the output is not unique or able to be restrictive by the tool used. But, if I create the super cool Entrails font and copyright it (since it is effectively artwork) you would need my permission to publish something using that font, regardless of what tool (Word, etc) that you used.

Now, if the mapping program only had lines, arcs and things that do not make it unique, then they couldn't prevent you from distributing it. But, since these have symbols, brushes or whatever they are called that impart a recognizable style to your map, they can copyright and restrict how you distribute that style.

To take it a step farther, without protection for art/style, why couldn't I use the likeness of Mickey Mouse on shirts I sell?

EDIT: Ninja'd! I think Trenloe said it better :()

Trenloe
October 20th, 2016, 20:16
Actually, the clarification we needed is answered in the comments here: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/hobbyte/dungeon-builder-an-isometric-map-maker-for-role-pl/posts/1701912

So, as long as no money is exchanged, content created with a Dungeon Builder personal license can be shared. Even a "pay what you want" on DMsGuild/DTRPG would require an indie license.

Good to know.

This in no way invalidates the discussion above regarding copyright material/tools/etc.. This is one case where the owner of said material has decided to allow that material to be freely shared with the personal license, as long as no money changes hands.

rob2e
October 25th, 2016, 00:54
Interesting. Thanks for sharing.

I think I'll stick with Perspectives 3 for CC3+ for now: https://secure.profantasy.com/products/per3_video.asp However, if this KS really "kicks" and gets to the final "Extra: Top Down View" stretch goal I might take a look again. Saved to look at later...

I'm looking on 10/31 to see if they're near 2D stretch also, otherwise I don't find it useful (cool yes, nut not useful) for FG.

rob2e
October 25th, 2016, 01:02
On second thought, after reading this, there's no way I'm shelling out $300 to make maps to include in my stuff when CC3+ will work. I would think the creators of this software would see the benefit (in advertising its use) if they would allows maps made to be sold. I'm no marketing genius, but from a consumer standpoint, that's ridiculous in my opinion, so I guess I won't be supporting that Kickstarter after all. :(

damned
October 25th, 2016, 02:34
On second thought, after reading this, there's no way I'm shelling out $300 to make maps to include in my stuff when CC3+ will work. I would think the creators of this software would see the benefit (in advertising its use) if they would allows maps made to be sold. I'm no marketing genius, but from a consumer standpoint, that's ridiculous in my opinion, so I guess I won't be supporting that Kickstarter after all. :(

Ahhhh... you can easily spend more than $300 on CC#+ too you know....

rob2e
October 25th, 2016, 05:11
Ahhhh... you can easily spend more than $300 on CC#+ too you know....

Could. But haven't. And they impose no restrictions.

LordEntrails
October 25th, 2016, 05:54
I agree with Rob on this. These various Kickstarter map projects/programs are interesting, but not viable or a good fit what what I want to do. They might be great for others, but I like CC3. Been using it very infrequently since CC2 days, but they are a good company like SmiteWorks and they have a good community too. Not the easiest program to use, but well worth the learning curve.

Trenloe
October 25th, 2016, 16:10
These various Kickstarter map projects/programs are interesting, but not viable or a good fit what what I want to do.
Yeah, I've backed a few RPG/Map making kickstarters ran by "professional" developers who tried their hand at creating their own applications. Mostly these have not delivered - to functionality, timeline (that's pretty much a given) or not at all. It's amazing how many people who work in software development still think it'll be easy for them to write their own commercial quality application - mostly in their spare time!

Now, these guys (two people - one a software developer and one an artist) say the Kickstarter is to allow them to take time off work and write the software. The fact they've got a basic app going already is certainly promising. My main concern is the current stretch goals: "play mode". So... they're now going to spend lots (and there will be lots) of development time on making this a mini VTT? And the functionality that would make this interesting to me (top down view) is rally just an afterthought that they added because people were asking for it - when will this be scheduled in the development cycle? Will they make top down artwork for all of the isometric graphics or just a subset?

Plus, I wonder how long they'll support the software...

Sorry if I'm coming across all negative - these guys might be amazing software developers and can turn out a working, stable application by May 2017; and then do all of the complex stretch goals in a reasonable time; and make this an application I could use for years to come. I've just been burnt a lot by software projects on Kickstarter - which is a shame, as I want Kickstarter to be what it was originally designed to be: a crowd funding community to help people kick start their own ideas/companies, not a pre-order system for already established companies.


They might be great for others, but I like CC3. Been using it very infrequently since CC2 days, but they are a good company like SmiteWorks and they have a good community too. Not the easiest program to use, but well worth the learning curve.
Yep, if this kickstarter looks like it's something you'll enjoy and use then don't let us nay-sayers put you off! Back it and I hope it turns out to be an amazing application.

I've invested my time with CC3 and like what it does, like the company, like their monthly annuals, like their community and support, etc.. Yes, it takes time to get up to speed - but to be perfectly honest, "only" a few hours and you'll be producing maps in a powerful engine that gives you a lot of flexibility. I just think that some users are wanting an application that allows them to product amazing maps within minutes - that is only vaguely possible (IMHO) with a tile based approach (all aspects of the map are created by laying pre-created graphical tiles onto the map) and is, by its very nature, limited in what it can do by the graphical tiles available to it. Want to draw a 30 degree diagonal wall? Sorry, we don't have a tile for that... (But CC3 can do that with it's vector based/fill style approach).

Tailz Silver Paws
October 28th, 2016, 03:39
Yeah, I've backed a few RPG/Map making kickstarters ran by "professional" developers who tried their hand at creating their own applications. Mostly these have not delivered - to functionality, timeline (that's pretty much a given) or not at all. It's amazing how many people who work in software development still think it'll be easy for them to write their own commercial quality application - mostly in their spare time!

Now, these guys (two people - one a software developer and one an artist) say the Kickstarter is to allow them to take time off work and write the software. The fact they've got a basic app going already is certainly promising. My main concern is the current stretch goals: "play mode". So... they're now going to spend lots (and there will be lots) of development time on making this a mini VTT? And the functionality that would make this interesting to me (top down view) is rally just an afterthought that they added because people were asking for it - when will this be scheduled in the development cycle? Will they make top down artwork for all of the isometric graphics or just a subset?

Plus, I wonder how long they'll support the software...

Sorry if I'm coming across all negative - these guys might be amazing software developers and can turn out a working, stable application by May 2017; and then do all of the complex stretch goals in a reasonable time; and make this an application I could use for years to come. I've just been burnt a lot by software projects on Kickstarter - which is a shame, as I want Kickstarter to be what it was originally designed to be: a crowd funding community to help people kick start their own ideas/companies, not a pre-order system for already established companies.


Yep, if this kickstarter looks like it's something you'll enjoy and use then don't let us nay-sayers put you off! Back it and I hope it turns out to be an amazing application.

I've invested my time with CC3 and like what it does, like the company, like their monthly annuals, like their community and support, etc.. Yes, it takes time to get up to speed - but to be perfectly honest, "only" a few hours and you'll be producing maps in a powerful engine that gives you a lot of flexibility. I just think that some users are wanting an application that allows them to product amazing maps within minutes - that is only vaguely possible (IMHO) with a tile based approach (all aspects of the map are created by laying pre-created graphical tiles onto the map) and is, by its very nature, limited in what it can do by the graphical tiles available to it. Want to draw a 30 degree diagonal wall? Sorry, we don't have a tile for that... (But CC3 can do that with it's vector based/fill style approach).

This is largely a "look and feel" vs funds/budget argument. If your happy with the look and feel of CC3 and it fits your budget, all is good. But if your not happy with it and want a different artistic style but you don't want too or don't have the artistic skills to do it yourself, then you have to look at licencing costs to use the artwork (and that artists time to create that art).