GM and Player License questions....

[Grymn]

I currently use Klooge Werks for my online gaming needs...as it allows players to connect to my GM session without owning a license of their own. This works because I have purchased a GM license and 4 Client licenses that have been added to my own GM license allowing up to 4 players to connect to my game sessions without owning a license of their own. In a sense I have my own GM slot and then my own license also provides four slots for players when I host a game with my GM license...(any players after the 4 I have purchased client license addons for would need their own license to play).

I really like the set up, functionality, and feel of this program. The problem is...I tend to run games online for a lot of different people, most of which would not be able to purchase or wouldn't be able to afford to purchase a license of their own.

I guess I am just wondering if this is available or if it is forseeable in the future for this amazing program. It is the deciding factor on whether I purchase FG or stay with what I use now (utility, features, and functions are not nearly as important as my loyal players..I'll go with the tools that allows them to continue playing in my games).

[Snikle]

This sounds like an interesting idea for the devsheads to consider. I am not familiar with Koogle, in comparison how much did your license cost with the 4 additional licenses? I am wondering if it would be possible (and at this point I think it would be a major change to their programming structure) to do something like this and offer it as an additional purchasing plan, say for a little more than the normal full license they have now. I think many DMs that have the money, which I think allot of us do as many around here seem to be in their mid-30s, would not mind footing an extra 10~20 for a few additional licenses. Personally, I don't think that $20 is that big of a deal, heck if a player buys a dare rpg book these days they run $20~30, but I may be in the minority.

[richvalle]

The $20 is not a big deal to my players either (mid 30's). Heck, one of my friends is talking about buying a license just so he can sit in on the games and chat with us.

rv

[Dupre]

We plan on introducing license bundles, but I don't have more details to give you just yet.

[Alkaven]

Wow... That's... actually cheaper for the whole bundle. Just visited the Klooge Werks site, and it's got almost as many features as this has. It's missing the rollable dice and some fancy-pants doodads, but I could've got my old gaming buddies together and jump right into DMing for them right away for only $40. www.kloogeinc.com

I had a feeling there was something just as good out there for less. I should've waited. Augh. It's like the $30 I spent on FG is wasted now.

Grymn, as a DM and an FG owner, your not getting all that much more than what your getting from Klooge Werks. If you wanted a quality application that had almost all the necessary easy-to-use features you needed, Fantasy Grounds is a good choice. But in comparison to Klooge Werks, your only paying $40 for the GM functionality and four player licenses, while with Fantasy Grounds, it'll cost you at least $110 ($30 for the full, then $70 for the four lites) for the same functionality. That is not NEARLY worth it for just the few extra features Fantasy Grounds gets that Klooge Werks doesn't have.

For me, I've already bought Fantasy Grounds (unfortunately), so it'd be pointless to get Klooge Werks now. But had I known about Klooge Werks, I would've got that instead, considering it runs on ANY operating system that has the Java Runtime installed.

Wish I knew sooner that they were 'going' to introduce bundles. I would've held off unitil then. However, with that in mind, just have to wait and see what the price will be.

[Snikle]

What is Klooge's support and development like? Having just came to FG recently I can say they are very receptive to ideas and suggestions and bug fixes as well. Klooge , I don't know much about. What about the customation? FG is very customizable, is Klooge?
And IMPO, Java blows goats, so I would rather use FG.

[Crusader]

And IMPO, Java blows goats, so I would rather use FG.

Amen to that! :wink:

Working in the networking industry means you often come across java-applications because it's easy to implement for the manufacturers (or so I'm told). Terrible!

[Alkaven]

Granted, Java is crap, and it shouldn't earn it a whole lot of merits for being built in java. I suspect Klooge Werks probably runs as slow as PCGen in that respect.

Honestly tho, I couldn't care less about the language. It could be done in any managed code environment. Just take a solid look at the price comparison. You'd sooner pay the extra $70 just because Klooge Werks is built in Java? I can honestly say Java ain't THAT bad. I might pay $10 or even $20, but $70?

You also have to consider that player functionality is not nearly as much as DM functionality. As a player, you can make a character sheet and roll dice. A DM gets that and can also have story pages, customized house rules, NPC pages, images, ect.,

By theory, In order to have any game at all, you need a DM and players (usually 1 DM to every 3 players minimum). It's like the PHB. You only need 1 for a group, not 1 for each player.

[Dupre]

We chose native low level programming over Java for better playability and performance. While Java is good for business applications and has shorter development times generally, it doesn't provide good enough control over hardware for our needs.

[kalmarjan]

Having tried both, Klooge sucks a mean goats #ss!

It is bloated, slow, complicated and too open to different "quirks"

You get what you pay for BTW, and if you wanna save a couple of dollars, then by all means purchase Klooge. Just don't expect to have any fun while you are between updates.

I would say it is like complaining that D&D is too expensive, and playing some other game system b/c it is cheaper. Newsflash! All of those "cheaper" product offering companies are now basically using the same structure as WOTC now. (And not just because of OGL and SRD...)

D&D has always been expensive. The same goes for FG. Come on! If you were to play NWN, you would all be shelling out 60$ or something like it, and would nearly have to become a programmer to make your own mods and stuff! I would say that 35$ CND is not that hefty a price tag.... and if your buddies are balking at paying that, well, they are probably those same players who are always "can I borrow your PHB??"

Nuff said, sorry for the rant..

cheers,

[Crusader]

You'd sooner pay the extra $70 just because Klooge Werks is built in Java?

Yes! In fact, I've payed more than that and I did it gladly! But It's not just for the Java, but I had a look at Klooge on several occasions, and I like some of the features but in the end FG won my heart the moment I set my eyes on it.

[Grymn]

I've used for Klooge for quite a while. It has done what I needed for all of my games. It is clunky. It is slow. The developers are really great though and have even helped me set up a my klooge for use in World of Darkness in the past (I play half Storyteller and d20 games). I have more than gotten my money's worth from Klooge. The FG demo, however, has easily won me over...it really is a good online representation of a gaming table. Dupre, once the license packs are released...you'll have a definate new customer!

[joshuha]

I've used for Klooge for quite a while. It has done what I needed for all of my games. It is clunky. It is slow. The developers are really great though and have even helped me set up a my klooge for use in World of Darkness in the past (I play half Storyteller and d20 games). I have more than gotten my money's worth from Klooge. The FG demo, however, has easily won me over...it really is a good online representation of a gaming table. Dupre, once the license packs are released...you'll have a definate new customer!

Look at my review of Fantasy Grounds Full over on RPGnow.com and you will see my feelings are similiar. I have also tried Klooge extensively and it does have a lot more features (think ton and tons of checkboxes). However, the interface is CLUNKY. I think it tries too hard to automate too much of the game and thus loses out on replicating the tabletop experience. Heck, give it a few more cycles and you have an automated MUD and don't need a DM anymore heh.

I think Fantasy Grounds does what it was meant to do very well. Replicated the tabletop. The interface seems designed around that first and foremost, not automation.

Granted in an online format there are things that could be better automated (like initiative tracking) and things that need more work to emulate real life mapping (more map tools, hiding options, etc.) but all of those are gravy.

Sure, open ended dice rolls (where you reroll on x number or above) makes perfect sense to do automatically in a online tabletop (and this feature is coming) but you can always just do it the way you do it in real life and just reroll the dice!

On the topic of licensing I really think SmiteWorks should consider a server centric package in the future even if it were slightly more expensive (or lower the player only license price). I think this could possibly increase the exposure of Fantasy Grounds rather quickly as any DM with enough license could start advertising games in a ton of different places and attract a lot of interest in the program. Maybe have the player license have more features that a server centric license would not be able to do such as the local character option.

[Cantstanzya]

Personally I think the pricing is fine. If you play twice a month for a year, that is less than $1.00 per client to play. There are people out there paying $50.00 for a game, and then another $15.00 a month to play games like World of Warcraft or Ever"quear".
As far as comparing FG to KW, there is no comparison. FG is the best at replicating the tabletop enviornment. FG is less than a year old and KW is over 5 years old, yet FG is superior. Think of where FG will be in 5 years. I agree, you get what you pay for, and I feel the money that I paid is well worth it.
I personally would like to see the DM version of FG given away and the client version sold for $25.00. This would boost the comunity by having more DMs than clients. I feel currently there are way more players than DMs. If they made it so that the DM version couldn't connect to anyone and only the client could connect it would seem there would be more people creating content and running games. Let's face it, the DM does all the work and shouldn't have to pay more for the software.
No matter how they license it, they need to make money. I highly doubt they do this as a "hobby". They are providing a product (a damn good product I might add) and these guys deserve to be paid. Guess what, if they don't get paid there is no product.

[Alkaven]

MMORPGs are a whole new field entirely. This is nothing more than a toolset. Hence why it's callled a Virtual Tabletop. MMORPGs charge monthly because they've been founded on a subscription system much like that of magazines and whatnot. MMORPGs are also stupidly priced and just plain stupid to begin with. And lemme tell yah, after all the long years of playing mmorpgs, I have the honest right to say that EQ, DAoC, FF11, WoW, and EQ2 all suck. Why people love em so much, I dunno. It's like why people love the Final Fantasy games I guess... "Duh uh... well uh... It looks cooool."

(Sorry if that offended anyone. After all this development in mmorpgs and it going the wrong direction has really pissed me off)

Well, your right, a guys gotta earn a livin I guess. But $110? Now Adobe Photoshop and Microsoft Office each cost about $300, so ripping people off might be their marketting strategy. I mean, it's a living. If I built a kickass application like this, I'd probably rip people off too. 90% of all of them I wouldn't know personally, and they'd be putting cash in my wallet.

However, the simple principle here is that an actual GAME consists of at least 3 players and 1 DM. Now with a bundle deal that's not so bad if your saving yourself at least 25% off, and in most cases it ends up being the DM who buys all the stuff for his players to play anyway.

I bought this application because it had everything I needed and I figured I could find players with FG who would play in my adventures. As it stands now, I still can't get the custom spell list added, and I've only ever achieved two players at most for my adventures. Only TWO. Yah, your right, there ARE more players than DMs. Sure... Now if only there were ENOUGH more players than DMs. Then maybe I'd be able to run a decent adventure.

[Snikle]

Just my two pennies. I just finished running my third session using FG and all I can say is thank you Smiteworks! We did have a few players drop, but they came back easily and in a few seconds, other than that, the system worked perfectly. All the players were impressed, the mapping, masking and zooming are the greatest and seriously added to the game.
FG allows just the right amount of planning and 'on the fly' and is in my mind the best thing that has hit the gaming community in a long long time.

[Cantstanzya]

Well, your right, a guys gotta earn a livin I guess. But $110? Now Adobe Photoshop and Microsoft Office each cost about $300, so ripping people off might be their marketting strategy. I mean, it's a living. If I built a kickass application like this, I'd probably rip people off too. 90% of all of them I wouldn't know personally, and they'd be putting cash in my wallet.
You have got to be joking right? At $110.00 per gaming group devided by the number of developers (which I'm guessing is 5 people) would calculate out to $22.00 per developer. If this is their only source of income, that might fill up their car with gas. You have to put this in persepective. Microsoft office cost $300.00 per and has a much larger user base. To say that Smite Works is ripping you off is ludicrous. They are trying to make a living and offer IMO the best solution for online p&p.

You are really destroying your credibility in these forums by crying about the cost of the software.
If I built a kickass application like this, I'd probably rip people off too. 90% of all of them I wouldn't know personally, and they'd be putting cash in my wallet.
I still don't understand how you consider them trying to make a living as ripping people off. If they didn't support it, it would be ripping people off. But it is well supported, very well supported.

[Alkaven]

If anyone takes my personal opinion of the pricing campaign Smite Works is using as offensive, then I'd rather not associate with people like that. Anyone reading this should know that it's a logical and fair argument I'm making. It's not whining, it's not offensive, it's just a response to statements above.

Ripping off is when a product similar to other products in the same market is charging more than the market standard. $70 (120%) extra for an application that runs 40%-60% faster and has 3-dimensional dice for a group of players is a little unreasonable, whether they're CHOOSING to live off it or not.

And I never implied that Fantasy Grounds was a bad application at all. It has everything I want in it too. I just have to spend $17 for each player I want in my game.

[richvalle]

I think its because you are looking at it in a different way then some of us are. Not that you are wrong and we are right. Others have expressed the same view point as you have.

Until you guys posted I never even thought about that way. Having each player pay is own way is the natural way for us to do things. I think the others that are posting think the same way we do... at $20 per client for the amount of playing time you get out of it is a great deal.

Have a nice weekend.

rv

[kalmarjan]

Not to be snide.... but you did not really have to buy the program before you tried it. There is the demo available to try.

I sympathise with what you are saying, but I am also agreeing to disagree with you. Just the fact that there is a growing fanbase should show you that this is a quality product. I have thrown my hat in the ring since the start, and I have tried all of the "applications" other than FG before. Thank the gods above FG came around, because now I have a gaming group again!

If you are bitter about your purchase, fine. That is your deal. I for one, am overjoyed by the product.

BTW this application is developed by professional coders, who have an idea what they are doing. This prevents hack jobs like openRPG and Klooge from comparing to this product. Back to the original point. You get what you pay for.

If the cost concerns you, look at ghostorb. That platform costs you something like 5$ to play a month. (I don't have the exact figure, just what I have heard.) For each player in a four player + DM game, thats 25$ a month! Kinda puts it into perspective, Huh?

Cheers,

[Alkaven]

Ripping off is actually a poor choice of words on my part. Sorry. Ultimately, I made the decision to spend the money for the product. If anything, it is my mistake for getting it.

And that's a very good way of looking at it, richvalle. When it comes down to it, each player individually will go for the $20 deal. A player can go thru many different games, and a DM can host many different games. Unfortunately, as I stated before, you must have around 3 players to each DM.

The simple statement "There are more players than DMs" is very true. Maybe I should've sat and thought first what that really meant tho before I figured I could easily get enough players to get a game going. MOST groups out there are generally friends who want to play the game, like how you play board games like risk and axis and allies with your friends. While the internet offers a great way to make new friends, they all have to have FG for the virtual tabletop to work.

[richvalle]

Alkaven,

Try posting over at www.adventuresomedreams.com if you have not already. Most the traffic is the same as here but we've had both dm's looking for players there and players looking for games.

Good luck,

rv

[Cantstanzya]

Ripping off is when a product similar to other products in the same market is charging more than the market standard. $70 (120%) extra for an application that runs 40%-60% faster and has 3-dimensional dice for a group of players is a little unreasonable, whether they're CHOOSING to live off it or not.
So basically all automobiles should be all in the same price range, right? They all have an engine, wheels and seats. They all serve the same purpose as a mode of transportation, so why is there such a big price difference in the car models? Options, quality, reliability, support, and style are some factors....hmm, just like software.
I don't know how you make a living, but the work you do has to have a $ value, whether you dig ditches or write software. If people are willing to pay that price, you are not ripping anyone off. If they charged $200.00 a license and people were willing to pay that price, they still are not ripping anyone off.
I searched the net for all options when our DM moved and I did look at kLoOge and knew that it was cheaper. In the end I decided on FG because I felt it was a better product. In your case you didn't know about kLoOge and now that you do, you feel you got ripped off. It is obvious that no matter what anyone says you will always have that feeling. I am just trying to point out that Smite Works isn't Microsoft and I'm sure they didn't write this software to "stick it" to the working man.
You have admitted that you like the software only you feel that you have been over charged. Let's say they were to charge less and then in six months decide that they cannot make a living off of this and close shop. Now you have software that is unsupported, lower in price, but unsuppported. How would you feel then?
Sorry if I come off as being argumentative, it just hits a nerve when people say that the price isn't reasonable. If you are having to pay for your entire group, it's your group that is being unreasonable. Good luck with your gaming and hope you haven't taken anything I've said the wrong way.

[Alkaven]

Ripping off is when a product similar to other products in the same market is charging more than the market standard. $70 (120%) extra for an application that runs 40%-60% faster and has 3-dimensional dice for a group of players is a little unreasonable, whether they're CHOOSING to live off it or not.
So basically all automobiles should be all in the same price range, right? They all have an engine, wheels and seats. They all serve the same purpose as a mode of transportation, so why is there such a big price difference in the car models? Options, quality, reliability, support, and style are some factors....hmm, just like software.
I don't know how you make a living, but the work you do has to have a $ value, whether you dig ditches or write software. If people are willing to pay that price, you are not ripping anyone off. If they charged $200.00 a license and people were willing to pay that price, they still are not ripping anyone off.
I searched the net for all options when our DM moved and I did look at kLoOge and knew that it was cheaper. In the end I decided on FG because I felt it was a better product. In your case you didn't know about kLoOge and now that you do, you feel you got ripped off. It is obvious that no matter what anyone says you will always have that feeling. I am just trying to point out that Smite Works isn't Microsoft and I'm sure they didn't write this software to "stick it" to the working man.
You have admitted that you like the software only you feel that you have been over charged. Let's say they were to charge less and then in six months decide that they cannot make a living off of this and close shop. Now you have software that is unsupported, lower in price, but unsuppported. How would you feel then?
Sorry if I come off as being argumentative, it just hits a nerve when people say that the price isn't reasonable. If you are having to pay for your entire group, it's your group that is being unreasonable. Good luck with your gaming and hope you haven't taken anything I've said the wrong way.

I'm not going to persue this argument anymore, Cantstanzya. I already stated above about the poor choice of words. And there's no possible way you can gauge how little their making if you don't know exactly how many sales are being made.

[Cantstanzya]

And there's no possible way you can gauge how little their making if you don't know exactly how many sales are being made.
Regardless of how many sales they have made they have earned it and deserve to be paid for their time.

[ashman]

wow some real rabbid fanboi's going on here today.
gotta say implying that klooges dev isn't a professional and is a hack is pretty sad.As well the "sucks ***" comment shows a real lack of maturity.

Klooge is way more feature rich then fantasy grounds every will be due to the fact it isn't restricted to any one system and isn't nor will ever be d20 or OGL licenced.Thats a good thing btw.The only thing i see feature wise that klooge doesn't have that FG does is the 3d dice.

Klooges one failing, which is a fair assessment, is that its interface is clunky mostly due to feature creep from user requests.But simply printing out the keyboard shortcuts document and memorizing the important ones makes navigating it quite easy.

Fantasy grounds however IS a great program as well and it is very aesthetically pleasing. And has a great ohh ahh factor they've really harnessed that "feels like a tabletop feeling".I look forward to seeing how things progress with 1.06 and beyond with scripting ect.SmiteWorks has a real good momentum going,The community involment and support is really impressive.

Theres definatelly room for both programs out there especially since FG is windows only.I suspect for the near future i'm going ot continue DMing my existing group with klooge,and trying to find some games as a player with Fantasy Grounds. Its not like one can't enjoy both.In fact i know you can because I do.

[Crusader]

Klooge is way more feature rich then fantasy grounds every will be due to the fact it isn't restricted to any one system and isn't nor will ever be d20 or OGL licenced.Thats a good thing btw.The only thing i see feature wise that klooge doesn't have that FG does is the 3d dice.

While I do agree that Klooge is certainly more feature-rich, I must point out that FG isn't tied down to d20 - I made a ruleset for a completely different gaming system that has very little to do with d20.


Theres definatelly room for both programs out there especially since FG is windows only.I suspect for the near future i'm going ot continue DMing my existing group with klooge,and trying to find some games as a player with Fantasy Grounds. Its not like one can't enjoy both.In fact i know you can because I do.

True words, after all - we're all roleplayers here, no point in bashing each other. :)

[Alkaven]

What I find kind of funny about the 3D dice feature Fantasy Grounds has is that it's sort of a bad thing at the same time. Your able to pick up and drop the dice outside the chat window until you get it juuuust perfect on the highest result facing straight up so that you can just plop it down without it rolling around.

They should probably force a 'spin' when you let go of the die. ;)

[Cantstanzya]

What I find kind of funny about the 3D dice feature Fantasy Grounds has is that it's sort of a bad thing at the same time. Your able to pick up and drop the dice outside the chat window until you get it juuuust perfect on the highest result facing straight up so that you can just plop it down without it rolling around.

They should probably force a 'spin' when you let go of the die. ;)
This has come up several times in other posts. The same could happen around a real table where someone picks up a die and barely drops it or slides it and they call that their roll. As a DM you would pick up on this and punish the character. It is obvious when someone does this. Give them a warning and the next time it happens bring out 4 or 5 more monster on them, or take away XP, or better yet, do both. Once you do that there won't be any limp wristed throws. The DM is the moderator and behaviour like this has to be dealt with, just like in face to face P&P.
*EDIT Oh yea, have you found the easter egg on how to spin the die?

[Snikle]

As a DM, you are in control and can control the outcome regardless of the die results. First, i would get rid of the choldish player, or heck, send a few massive beats his way, he will ge the idea.

[richvalle]

What I find kind of funny about the 3D dice feature Fantasy Grounds has is that it's sort of a bad thing at the same time. Your able to pick up and drop the dice outside the chat window until you get it juuuust perfect on the highest result facing straight up so that you can just plop it down without it rolling around.

They should probably force a 'spin' when you let go of the die. ;)

I'm tempted to agree with this. Not because its a way to cheat... its too easy for everyone else to see how you 'roll' the die. If it just plops onto the window I force a re-roll. This has happened a couple of times not from cheating but just from muffing the mouse movement.

Maybe some sort of feature like the computer golf games had... hold down the right mouse buttone to build up power. Something like that.

rv

[Cantstanzya]

This has happened a couple of times not from cheating but just from muffing the mouse movement.

Once the players get the hang of rolling the dice (along with the other players harassing them about their limp wristed rolls) the dice will be ricocheting all over the chat box. Just like table top you make rules for if the die roll off of the table, or land on a dice bag or other uneven surface. If the roll is lame have them re-roll it regardless of the outcome. If you think they are doing it on purpose punish them... punish them severely.

[Alkaven]

This has come up several times in other posts. The same could happen around a real table where someone picks up a die and barely drops it or slides it and they call that their roll. As a DM you would pick up on this and punish the character. It is obvious when someone does this. Give them a warning and the next time it happens bring out 4 or 5 more monster on them, or take away XP, or better yet, do both. Once you do that there won't be any limp wristed throws. The DM is the moderator and behaviour like this has to be dealt with, just like in face to face P&P.
*EDIT Oh yea, have you found the easter egg on how to spin the die?

Well, I used to punish players for almost anything. Lack of unannounced attendance, bending the rules, ect., However, although it's not worth running for these kinds of players, it is a form of negative punishment, which is discouraging them to play. Unlike death (which is part of the game), these kinds of punishments will be seen as 'cheap' or 'unfair' because they are outside the rules in the book.

I TOTALLY agree with doing that, but unfortunately, I have a hard enough time getting players. The most I do is ask them to reroll, even if it lands on a 1.

An easter egg huh? Wooooo! I didn't find it yet, but I DID managed to get my d4 to spin on the spot once accidentally. :D