Modifications to a module are not showing up when reopened in campaign using it

[swest]

Greetings,

I have been developing a module for a chapter in RotRL. I have been editing it, then saving it, and then re-loading it in my campaign.

All of a sudden, changes made over in the development campaign (subsequently exported to the module, and then re-loaded) aren't showing up in the main campaign.

I'm sorry, but I don't have time to search this problem out (our game session starts in an hour), so if anyone has any ideas what has gone wrong, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks.

- s.west

[swest]

Also, I just noticed something else. When I open the module (from the library 'modules' page), and look at the contents directly, I am able to edit the contents of the module directly, right there on the library window... Have I left off some read-only mode setting? I can't edit any other library content.

?

- s.west

[Zacchaeus]

Are you using any kind of cloud based back up software such as Dropbox?

[swest]

And, I just noticed something else... again...

In my campaign's moduledb, there are a collection of entries (recovery files? with their Unix timestamps) for the module in question.

Should (or can?) I delete those .xml files? To get back to a pristine view of the module?

And why are there so many?

When does a new one get created?

- s.west

[swest]

Also, I just noticed something else. When I open the module (from the library 'modules' page), and look at the contents directly, I am able to edit the contents of the module directly, right there on the library window... Have I left off some read-only mode setting? I can't edit any other library content.

?

- s.west

Thanks for your attention.

Nope... just local to my own computer.

The changes are <in> the actual module file... yet, when I open it in the campaign, it is being overridden by the .xml in the moduledb...

I thought this was the whole point of creating a module for this purpose. So that you would always have the pristine view of the module if you wanted it.

?

- s.west

[swest]

By the way, these are Story entries that I'm talking about here...

If that makes a difference.

What if I deleted that story entry in the campaign, and then closed and re-opened the module... that would have to correct it, right?

Also, after I close and reopen the module, all the edit boxes (out to the right of the story entries in the Campaign view) are normal (i.e., un-edited)... and, yet, they don't reflect the true content of the module's story entry.

- s.west

[Zacchaeus]

I may be confused as to your problem but if you create a module and open it in a new campaign and make changes in that campaign it will override the module. Even if you then go back to the original campaign and change it when you open it in the second campaign the changes made in the second campaign will still override the original. You can right click on the module in the modules window and revert changes to remove your amendments but that may not be what you want.

[swest]

I may be confused as to your problem but if you create a module and open it in a new campaign and make changes in that campaign it will override the module. Even if you then go back to the original campaign and change it when you open it in the second campaign the changes made in the second campaign will still override the original. You can right click on the module in the modules window and revert changes to remove your amendments but that may not be what you want.

I think the 'right click' may be what I want... I'll check that out. I don't remember a right click.

Also, I expected that, in the Library Window view of the module (i.e., in the window that has the list of open modules down the left), when I click on the module-of-interest, and bring up its contents in that right-hand pane, when clicking on the content there, I would have expected to get the module's <actual> content, not the campaign's view of that content... No? It works that way with every other module. But, then, every other module doesn't let me edit that content directly from the Library window either...

[goes off to try 'right click']

Ok, I can't figure out what you meant by 'You can right click on the module in the modules window and revert changes to remove your amendments but that may not be what you want.' I guess you'll have to be more specific. I can't find anywhere to 'right click' that does anything but 'close the window'...

Thanks for hanging with me.

- s.west

[swest]

So, then, I decided to actually delete the Story entry (from my campaign side), to see if it would get repopulated... but, no.. now its just absent from my campaign altogether, and now I'm wondering how to get it back...

Again, what if I just delete the entries for this module from the moduledb folder? Obviously I would lose any other customizations, pushpins, masks, etc... but, at least, I wouldn't have another Mess.

And I was trying to avoid the mess by making sure I only did things in the module and then exported it. And, now I find that if I have, I guess, just so much as 'touched' (??) something within the campaign, then any further changes I make to it over in my module development will never be seen... is that right?

Frustrating.

- s.west

[Nickademus]

Again, what if I just delete the entries for this module from the moduledb folder?

This is exactly what you want to do. You could also Revert Changes from the radial menu in certain places, but deleting the entries in the moduledb folder will work. Make sure you close the module in FG first otherwise it will re-write the changes the the moduledb file before reloading the module.

1. Close module
2. Delete entries in moduledb file
3. Open module

(I've done this many, many times before I found out about the Revert Changes.)

EDIT: Working with modules can be tricky (I've since stopped). But always make sure you close the module in your campaign (if FG is still running) before exporting the module from the second instance of FG (or saving the files in Notepad++ if you are doing it that way). The book in the Module Activation must be closed for FG to grab the changes. I got in the habit of closing the module before switching from FG to anything.

[Zacchaeus]

As I say I may be misunderstanding your problem.

let's say you start a new campaign, create a single story entry and then export that sort into a module. Now you close that campaign down and start a new one. You open your library and open up the module you created. You should now have the story you created showing up in the Story window (right hand side button). When you unlock that story entry you can edit it, add new stuff or delete it. Doing so does not change anything in your module as you say. It remains the same as it was. However in that campaign that story entry has changed and whenever you open it it will show your edits, not what is in the module. If you open your library and click on the modules button and find the module you can right click on it and select revert changes from the radial menu. Doing so will revert the story in the campaign back to its original state, wiping your edits.
it is possible that somehow your original module has become corrupted or perhaps your campaign you opened it in has become corrupted. So to test the former what happens when you open the module in a brand new campaign?

[Nickademus]

As I say I may be misunderstanding your problem.

it is possible that somehow your original module has become corrupted or perhaps your campaign you opened it in has become corrupted.

I'm fairly certain that the problem is that the module entry in the moduledb.xml file is overriding the data in the module. The campaign isn't corrupted (and is working as intended). He just needs to delete the changes to the campaign that he doesn't want, manually or with Revert Changes.

[damned]

Its quite possible that at some point swest may have mistakenly added content from the wrong campaign.
Ive done this about a hundred times.

[swest]

As I say I may be misunderstanding your problem.

let's say you start a new campaign, create a single story entry and then export that sort into a module. Now you close that campaign down and start a new one. You open your library and open up the module you created. You should now have the story you created showing up in the Story window (right hand side button). When you unlock that story entry you can edit it, add new stuff or delete it. Doing so does not change anything in your module as you say. It remains the same as it was. However in that campaign that story entry has changed and whenever you open it it will show your edits, not what is in the module. If you open your library and click on the modules button and find the module you can right click on it and select revert changes from the radial menu. Doing so will revert the story in the campaign back to its original state, wiping your edits.
it is possible that somehow your original module has become corrupted or perhaps your campaign you opened it in has become corrupted. So to test the former what happens when you open the module in a brand new campaign?

Greetings gents. We just finished our session for the evening. That is why it has taken me so long to get back to you. I will start my responses with the post above.

Yes, Zacchaeus. You have correctly stated it, with only one exception. But, as I'm typing this, I realize that it may not actually be an exception.

Typically, when you have a Module activated... let's say, for instance, the PFRPG Basic Rules Module... when you have that Module activated, so that it appears in your Library, if you click on it there, in the Library, and open any of its contents, that content is not available to be edited. There is not even a 'lock' symbol on it. It simply can't be touched. If you drag something from it, like a piece of equipment, over to, let's say, the Items window in your Campaign, then you can edit it... but, of course, the original is still the original, and unchanged (even in the Campaign where you edited the copy). Obviously, this is because you have only edited a 'copy' of the thing.

(I'm going to start using the actual items that I'm dealing with, instead of the abstraction, so that it can be explained easier)

With my 'RotRL Chapter 2 - Skinsaw Murders' Module, when I open my Campaign - "Rise of the Runelords" - and then activate my new Module, 'RotRL Chapter 2 - Skinsaw Murders', so that it shows up in my Library. If I open any of the various items there in the Library window, they are directly editable right there... This is different from the previous example I cited. I don't have to copy any of that content over to my campaign, it already appears there... This is another difference from that other example. And it doesn't matter which one I edit - the one in the Library or the one in the Campaign - once edited in the Campaign, it is edited forever (until 'Revert Changes', as I now know.)

I am now realizing that there are some fundamental differences between these two kinds of Modules, but I don't really know how to qualify that so that I understand it and don't make more mistakes...

What is that fundamental difference? What make my home-made Campaign Module ('RotRL Chapter 2 - Skinsaw Murders') different from the 'PFRPG Basic Rules' Module?


I really thought that I had a handle on all of this, and I was feeling so smug and satisfied... and, then, all of a sudden, wham! I'm reminded that I don't have a clue.

- s.west

p.s. I have other responses to make (to some of the other postings), and I'll try to make them tonight, but it's getting pretty late. I hope you three (Zacchaeus, Nickademus, damned) will keep up with me on this thread until I have it all figured out... pretty please?

I put together the first post rather hastily, because it was only an hour and a half until our session, and I was trying to figure this out as quickly as possible... I will take more time to be more clear about what I have been doing, that I thought was working fine, and what I wanted to do, again, that suddenly didn't work.

p.p.s. Actually, part of my quandary was just answered... I was sure that I tried this before, but, obviously, I didn't, and I think I know what I did wrong: I just went back to the Modules page, and right-clicked on the 'Icon' of my Module, and the 'Revert Changes' showed up... prior to that, I had right clicked just somewhere nonspecific within the box, or on the little 'book' symbol in the lower right, and I never saw the 'Revert Changes'.

Anyway, I just did the 'Revert Changes', and the original problem that I had (that started all this) has been corrected...

I assume that this has the effect of removing a number of things. For instance, I just checked, and the mask that I applied to one of the maps 'in-Campaign' had been removed. I expected that. However, I see that the Shared icon (out to the right) of my shared maps from that Module, are still labeled with a (P). ? I wouldn't have expected that, I guess.

What is the list (if it's short, and sweet) of things that one normally changes in a Campaign Module, that don't survive the 'Revert Changes'?


Thanks, again guys. I am almost all caught back up. I have one or two more nagging questions (from a lack of complete knowledge) that I would like answered, but I'll ask them tomorrow.

- s.west

[damned]

You can add a tag to the XML in a module to make it *Read Only*.
A day or three ago Moon Wizard posted something to the effect that Reference Manuals (like the PFRPG Basic Rules Module) should be set to Read Only. Adventures should be Editable (within the campaign only) as people will often edit an Adventure but the reference is the reference is the reference.
EDIT - <as per Moon Wizard below this next bit is not correct> I think Sharing and Masking are campaign specific and will not be reset when you revert changes. <end of untruths (for now)>

[Moon Wizard]

Sharing and masking will get reset. The module is returned to pristine condition when reverting.

Reverting can also be done by individual record.p from the campaign lists.

Regards,
JPG

[damned]

Thanks Moon Wizard!

swest better ignore the last line of my post above!!!

[Nickademus]

What is that fundamental difference? What make my home-made Campaign Module ('RotRL Chapter 2 - Skinsaw Murders') different from the 'PFRPG Basic Rules' Module?

There is no technical difference between the modules, but there is a fundamental difference in the way they are designed. A module is usually either made to hold adventure data (adventure module) or reference material (library module). A module can also be made to hold assets for use (token module, calendar module, bestiary). The difference between your home-made adventure module and the PF Basic Rules is what sections in the module xml has data. For example, you wouldn't generally put any <npc> entries in the basic rules as it doesn't have any NPCs that need to be shared; yet the module file can still have the <npc> tag and would recognize what to do with it if there was data in it.


p.p.s. Actually, part of my quandary was just answered... I was sure that I tried this before, but, obviously, I didn't, and I think I know what I did wrong: I just went back to the Modules page, and right-clicked on the 'Icon' of my Module, and the 'Revert Changes' showed up... prior to that, I had right clicked just somewhere nonspecific within the box, or on the little 'book' symbol in the lower right, and I never saw the 'Revert Changes'.

Anyway, I just did the 'Revert Changes', and the original problem that I had (that started all this) has been corrected...
I have found in the past that the radial-menu option Revert Changes appears sometimes for me and sometimes not. It was finicky enough that I stopped trying to use it and just altered the xml file myself (but then, I'm more comfortable with the xml than most people). I think there is some criteria, like the module has to be closed, that is required for the option to appear.


I really thought that I had a handle on all of this, and I was feeling so smug and satisfied... and, then, all of a sudden, wham! I'm reminded that I don't have a clue.
This is the normal growing pains of working with modules in FG. I've been there, and worked through it. The more you tackle and come to understand, the more other things, like the inner workings of FG, make more sense. Every struggle at this point is a benefit long-term.

[Zacchaeus]

swest - There are two kinds of modules that you might have - a reference module and a story module. There are two fundamental differences. Firstly you cannot create a reference module in Fantasy Grounds and secondly Reference Modules can't be edited. Now the boundaries are not absolutely set in stone since you can have stories in a reference module and you can have a reference section in a story module, but even if a reference section appears in a story module you won't be able to edit that bit of it.

So (and I'm not very familiar with 3.5) but a reference module would be something like a Player's Handbook or a Dungeon Master's Guide. A story module would be like an adventure. So when you export your campaign and make it into a module you are creating a story module and therefore when you open that up you can edit it. It's the same with any of the officially produced adventures you can edit those too. You can't however edit an entry in a reference manual but you can edit a copy of an entry in a reference manual like a piece of equipment.

The important thing to realize is that even if you do edit something that's in a module you are only doing so locally - you are not changing the module itself. As Moon Wizard says above when you revert changes everything that you have changed is wiped away. You can, however, be more specific in your reverting. For example if you change a story entry you'll see that in the library list that story now has a little book and pen icon next to it indicating it has been edited. If you right click over that you'll get the revert changes option which will allow you to revert the changes only on that story entry. You can do that to various other items that you have amended as well anywhere that you see a book and pen icon in the list.

[swest]

Guys, this is all very helpful! Thank you so much. I have to assume that this is fully spelled out somewhere, but I don't recollect where I would have read it. And, as I mentioned, I was under-the-gun.

I have one, or two, clarification questions. My operational mode (prior to the start of chapter 2 on Sep 24) was to bring up FG in the Module development Campaign, make my changes, additions, etc... /export it, and then exit FG, and then bring it up in my players' on-going Campaign, to double-check the changes... That was working just fine. Every time I made a change in the development Campaign, it showed up over in my regular Campaign, once I opened the Chapter 2 module.

Now, when I actually started the Chapter with my players (on 9/24), one thing I know that I die, at the beginning of the session, was to Mask off the Lumber Mill map. So, question #1 is:

1) When I applied a Mask to the Lumber Mill map, provided in the Chapter 2 Module, did that action render the Chapter 2 Module 'tainted' from that point forward? In other words, from that point forward, would changes I was making while running the development Campaign and then exporting it, no longer show up in the opened Module in the normal Campaign? (I hope that is clear.)

I ask question #1, because that is what appears to have happened. I think that, following 9/24, no changes I was making over in the development Campaign were being reflected in what actually showed up in the regular Campaign.


Now, my second question is a little more open-ended:

2) If the Module that you are using (notwithstanding Nickademus' remark that, "Working with modules can be tricky (I've since stopped)"... and I need to ask him to expand on that, if he would), anyway, if the Module that you are opening (i.e. Chapter 2 - Skinsaw Murders) to run in your Campaign (i.e., RotRL Campaign) is incomplete and still under development, but you want to use the completed portions of it to move your PC's Main Campaign forward, what is the right way to proceed?

Now, given what has been posted, along with what I have actually done (i.e., 'reverting' the Module), it is possible that I already have all of the answer to #2 that there is. However, I would appreciate some explicit guidance on that subject. A partial disclaimer: For creating the Chapter 2 module, I was relying the guidance of the illustrious Xorn in his excelent youtube series on this subject (Xorne's (sic) 5E @ FG YouTube Playlist (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLePiBJtKmjLn5IzhpakEcVqAHoYfezZbe)) . Xorn does not address this question of ongoing development. And, really, the fact of the matter is that I would never expect to get it right the first time, and I would expect that, as I conducted the Campaign, I would realize that I had left out 'this or that', and want to correct the Module from which I was playing. That is really what Question #2 is about.


Anyway, that's it for now. I really appreciate all the guidance so far. I will be digesting it and correcting my processes over the next two weeks in anticipation of our next gaming Session.


By the way, we discovered a repeatable Fantasy-Grounds-Crashing bug (v3.1.7)... I should report that in the "Houses of Healing" forum, right?

Thanks, again.

Please let me know about #1 and #2 above.

Also, if you, Nickademus, could expand on your "Working with modules can be tricky (I've since stopped)" remark, I would appreciate it.

- s.west

[Trenloe]

This should actually be a fairly straightforward topic - if users look at it from a purely data driven point of view. Don't panic when I say data driven - just take a deep breath, stop and read the following carefully... ;)


Fantasy Grounds modules contain data that (for the most part) is in the same format as data that is stored in the campaign database. Hence why you can create modules by directly exporting from a campaign - you are exporting campaign data into module data and the format is the same.
When a module is opened in a campaign there are usually certain portions of the module data that can be edited. In most normal cases, this is the data accessible through the buttons down the right hand side of the desktop.
When we say "edit" module data, the underlying module is not being edited directly, a copy of the specific piece of data is being made just for that campaign and any changes to that piece of data will be stored just in that campaign. The underlying module data is never directly edited through the FG GUI, only through re-exporting the module (or editing the module XML direct, or using a parser to create the module).
In this instance a "piece of data" is an individual entry from the campaign data lists: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/wiki/index.php/Campaign_Data A single story entry, a single map/image, a single NPC, a single encounter, a single item, a single treasure parcel, a single table, etc..
This is the really important bit! Fantasy Grounds clearly shows you which data in the campaign data lists comes from a module, and if this data has been edited within that campaign. Unedited module data is shown with an open book icon after each entry in the campaign data lists, edited entries are shown with an open book with a pen icon - see the screenshot below: this shows that all of the story entries come from a module, but only the three highlighted in yellow have been edited.
Any module data that shows the "open book with a pen" icon has been edited in this campaign and the edited data is stored in the campaign moduledb directory and is used instead of the data from the module for that specific piece of data. If that entry is subsequently changed directly in the underlying module (e.g. the module is re-exported from the master module making campaign) then the new module entry will not be automatically loaded by the campaign - as FG is showing it will use the local campaign edited version (shows the "open book with a pen" icon).
If you want to remove any of these campaign edits and see the base module data you have two options within the FG GUI: 1) To remove edits for a single entry, right click on that entry in the campaign data list and select "revert changes". 2) To remove all edited entries for a specific module, right-click on the module in "Module Activation" and select "revert changes". If the revert changes option is not available then that piece of data or module does not have any edits within that campaign.


https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=15588

This is really quite straightforward when you look at it from the aspect of individual data entries (4th bullet point above) and pay attention to the state of the module icon (5th bullet point above). Even opening a map/image can make FG change the module edit icon (as it's saved the image window size and position).

So, even if you *think* you haven't changed a module data entry in a campaign, if you see the module edit icon then FG has recorded that changes have been made and will use the data it has saved at the first time of editing and not look at new module data until you revert the changes. Golden rule: Look at the module edit icons!

[Nickademus]

Also, if you, Nickademus, could expand on your "Working with modules can be tricky (I've since stopped)" remark, I would appreciate it.

Sure. It's a matter of personal preference and the goal of GMing. Fantasy Grounds has a lot of neat features that are technically not needed for a table-top environment to recreated virtually. The added features are all luxury and most are designed to simplify certain aspects of the process of making adventures, making resources, or running/playing games. I dove head first into using most of the luxuries of FG, including making modules and extensions, loading up on the premade effects and fully automating the statistics of NPCs.

It wasn't easy; FG is not perfect (nothing is), it's not intuitive to learn, ruleset code isn't documented, effects have severe limitations (compared to the video game design they are mimicking), modules don't store all the campaign data and can end up fragmented into different versions, and so on. For most people the benefits of the automation and design features of FG outweigh these hinderances (and while the previous statement sounds negative, I am in no way saying FG is negative; I love the program and am amazed at what SW was able to do with it over the years). Though, for my personal GMing style, I value a constant steady pacing to keep the players engaged; something I learned worked very well in my live games before I became an FG hermit. I found through both running and playing in games that the more fancy stuff you use, the slower the pace of the game gets. I played in a high-level PF game that really opened my eyes to the problems of the automation and how exact it had to be to work; players were taking upwards of five minutes for their turns to make sure all the effects were properly in place, that the targeting was correct, that they were tracking item usage accurately, etc. It seemed to me like the shortcuts were do quite the opposite, though there are many factors here including player experience and character complexity.

This is why is stripped away all the bells and whistles and now run a BARE game. I use no automation, fill out no NPC sheets, make no generic items or parcels (I still make items for unique things that aren't in the equipment modules), and use no external modules for adventure data - only for tokens and rulebooks. Since I started running my game BARE the pacing has more than doubled (at low level play) and the players either don't mind or are relieved that they don't have to mess with all the technicals to get FG to accurately report the success of failure of an action. We simply roll the dice and state over chat the result of the die rolls (or sometimes type the modifier in the modifier box and then roll). I am more verbal with my players giving them feedback on their rolls (which increases GM-player interaction; a good thing).

As for modules, I found the majority of pauses in the game on my side of the screen were due to problems with working with the adventure modules that I created. This combined with the fact that a module doesn't export all the data from a campaign (I had a tavern filled with generic tokens for patrons and a monster cave filled with furniture tokens, none of which will be exported with the images into a module) lead me to decide to stop packaging my adventures in that fashion. I now use actual campaigns to store adventures. (This is also due to me switching from long-term campaigns to shorter adventures.) I create the adventure in a campaign like me people do. But instead of exporting it, I close FG, go to the campaigns folder and drag the campaign to a storage local (copying to a sync drive). When I want to run a session of the adventure, I make a copy of the folder, rename it and put it into the FG campaigns folder. It works just fine and I have all the data premade: masks, drawings, tokens on images, window positions and sizes, hotbar entries, everything that is campaign-specific and doesn't export into a module.

Again, this is all my personally preferred way of running games in FG based on valuing game pacing over easy math and automation. I think I went full circle in an attempt to use FG as a video game with a live GM all the way around and back to just using it to simulate a table-top environment like what I used to do as a live GM.

Very much I would say:
YMMV

[swest]

This should actually be a fairly straightforward topic - if users look at it from a purely data driven point of view. Don't panic when I say data driven - just take a deep breath, stop and read the following carefully... ;)


Fantasy Grounds modules contain data that (for the most part) is in the same format as data that is stored in the campaign database. Hence why you can create modules by directly exporting from a campaign - you are exporting campaign data into module data and the format is the same.
When a module is opened in a campaign there are usually certain portions of the module data that can be edited. In most normal cases, this is the data accessible through the buttons down the right hand side of the desktop.
When we say "edit" module data, the underlying module is not being edited directly, a copy of the specific piece of data is being made just for that campaign and any changes to that piece of data will be stored just in that campaign. The underlying module data is never directly edited through the FG GUI, only through re-exporting the module (or editing the module XML direct, or using a parser to create the module).
In this instance a "piece of data" is an individual entry from the campaign data lists: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/wiki/index.php/Campaign_Data A single story entry, a single map/image, a single NPC, a single encounter, a single item, a single treasure parcel, a single table, etc..
This is the really important bit! Fantasy Grounds clearly shows you which data in the campaign data lists comes from a module, and if this data has been edited within that campaign. Unedited module data is shown with an open book icon after each entry in the campaign data lists, edited entries are shown with an open book with a pen icon - see the screenshot below: this shows that all of the story entries come from a module, but only the three highlighted in yellow have been edited.
Any module data that shows the "open book with a pen" icon has been edited in this campaign and the edited data is stored in the campaign moduledb directory and is used instead of the data from the module for that specific piece of data. If that entry is subsequently changed directly in the underlying module (e.g. the module is re-exported from the master module making campaign) then the new module entry will not be automatically loaded by the campaign - as FG is showing it will use the local campaign edited version (shows the "open book with a pen" icon).
If you want to remove any of these campaign edits and see the base module data you have two options within the FG GUI: 1) To remove edits for a single entry, right click on that entry in the campaign data list and select "revert changes". 2) To remove all edited entries for a specific module, right-click on the module in "Module Activation" and select "revert changes". If the revert changes option is not available then that piece of data or module does not have any edits within that campaign.


.
.

This is really quite straightforward when you look at it from the aspect of individual data entries (4th bullet point above) and pay attention to the state of the module icon (5th bullet point above). Even opening a map/image can make FG change the module edit icon (as it's saved the image window size and position).

So, even if you *think* you haven't changed a module data entry in a campaign, if you see the module edit icon then FG has recorded that changes have been made and will use the data it has saved at the first time of editing and not look at new module data until you revert the changes. Golden rule: Look at the module edit icons!

Trenloe,

I have no problem with the 'data driven' concept, having worked on the consumption/processing/dissemination side of an 'ingest' server which received unsolicited satellite data.

I think that I am completely caught up now, although your post certainly helps to organize the concepts. Also, I had, pretty much, arrived at the same place as your second bullet, with respect to 'editable' content, and the fourth bullet, with respect to what constitutes the granularity of editable data.

The problem that started this for me was that I had a Story entry from my development Module that I know I had not edited while the Module was opened in the regular Campaign, and which I was attempting to update. My update would never show up. That is what got me off the rails. I can only assume that my memory was faulty. But, and I think this is the critical point you are making above:
"even if you *think* you haven't changed a module data entry in a campaign, if you see the module edit icon then FG has recorded that changes have been made" it is FG's record of the state of that entry that matters.

So, anyway, yes, I am now completely caught up.

Thank you all, very much.

- s.west

[swest]

Sure. It's a matter of personal preference and the goal of GMing. Fantasy Grounds has a lot of neat features that are technically not needed for a table-top environment to recreated virtually. The added features are all luxury and most are designed to simplify certain aspects of the process of making adventures, making resources, or running/playing games. I dove head first into using most of the luxuries of FG, including making modules and extensions, loading up on the premade effects and fully automating the statistics of NPCs.

It wasn't easy; FG is not perfect (nothing is), it's not intuitive to learn, ruleset code isn't documented, effects have severe limitations (compared to the video game design they are mimicking), modules don't store all the campaign data and can end up fragmented into different versions, and so on. For most people the benefits of the automation and design features of FG outweigh these hinderances (and while the previous statement sounds negative, I am in no way saying FG is negative; I love the program and am amazed at what SW was able to do with it over the years). Though, for my personal GMing style, I value a constant steady pacing to keep the players engaged; something I learned worked very well in my live games before I became an FG hermit. I found through both running and playing in games that the more fancy stuff you use, the slower the pace of the game gets. I played in a high-level PF game that really opened my eyes to the problems of the automation and how exact it had to be to work; players were taking upwards of five minutes for their turns to make sure all the effects were properly in place, that the targeting was correct, that they were tracking item usage accurately, etc. It seemed to me like the shortcuts were do quite the opposite, though there are many factors here including player experience and character complexity.

This is why is stripped away all the bells and whistles and now run a BARE game. I use no automation, fill out no NPC sheets, make no generic items or parcels (I still make items for unique things that aren't in the equipment modules), and use no external modules for adventure data - only for tokens and rulebooks. Since I started running my game BARE the pacing has more than doubled (at low level play) and the players either don't mind or are relieved that they don't have to mess with all the technicals to get FG to accurately report the success of failure of an action. We simply roll the dice and state over chat the result of the die rolls (or sometimes type the modifier in the modifier box and then roll). I am more verbal with my players giving them feedback on their rolls (which increases GM-player interaction; a good thing).

As for modules, I found the majority of pauses in the game on my side of the screen were due to problems with working with the adventure modules that I created. This combined with the fact that a module doesn't export all the data from a campaign (I had a tavern filled with generic tokens for patrons and a monster cave filled with furniture tokens, none of which will be exported with the images into a module) lead me to decide to stop packaging my adventures in that fashion. I now use actual campaigns to store adventures. (This is also due to me switching from long-term campaigns to shorter adventures.) I create the adventure in a campaign like me people do. But instead of exporting it, I close FG, go to the campaigns folder and drag the campaign to a storage local (copying to a sync drive). When I want to run a session of the adventure, I make a copy of the folder, rename it and put it into the FG campaigns folder. It works just fine and I have all the data premade: masks, drawings, tokens on images, window positions and sizes, hotbar entries, everything that is campaign-specific and doesn't export into a module.

Again, this is all my personally preferred way of running games in FG based on valuing game pacing over easy math and automation. I think I went full circle in an attempt to use FG as a video game with a live GM all the way around and back to just using it to simulate a table-top environment like what I used to do as a live GM.

Very much I would say:
YMMV

Nickademus,

Thanks for your GM'ing viewpoint. I completely get it, struggling, and having struggled, with some of the same issues.

One of the problems that I have is the late point in life that I actually began seriously RPGing. I missed out on decades of learning, and experience which the guys I play with have in vast quantities. They are really good at this.

So I need all the help I can get! A tool that automates parts of the game in which I should be fluent, but am not, is really valuable to me. That is the reason that it is important to me to master FG. It helps me keep up with my more seasoned comrades (at least, it helps me 'feel' like I'm keeping up).

Thanks, again.

- s.west

[Nickademus]

The problem that started this for me was that I had a Story entry from my development Module that I know I had not edited while the Module was opened in the regular Campaign, and which I was attempting to update. My update would never show up. That is what got me off the rails. I can only assume that my memory was faulty. But, and I think this is the critical point you are making above:

even if you *think* you haven't changed a module data entry in a campaign, if you see the module edit icon then FG has recorded that changes have been made" it is FG's record of the state of that entry that matters.

For what it's worth, the module edit icon is only partially correct. As soon as you unlock an entry the icon changes. If you immediately lock it back then you technically haven't changed a thing, but FG will still flag it and no longer update changes to that asset from the original module.

Chances are that you accidentally clicked the lock symbol on the story entry and thus FG saved the current state as 'the way it should be' from then on. You knew that you had not changed the text, but FG ignored that because it had been unlocked and assumed you changed something.

[swest]

For what it's worth, the module edit icon is only partially correct. As soon as you unlock an entry the icon changes. If you immediately lock it back then you technically haven't changed a thing, but FG will still flag it and no longer update changes to that asset from the original module.

Chances are that you accidentally clicked the lock symbol on the story entry and thus FG saved the current state as 'the way it should be' from then on. You knew that you had not changed the text, but FG ignored that because it had been unlocked and assumed you changed something.

That is, almost surely, exactly what happened. In fact, just a little while after my last post, i tried precisely what you describe, and, yes, the asset went to 'edited', even though no actual change had been made.

Thanks for the follow up.

- s.west

[Trenloe]

Which is why I said "Golden rule: Look at the module edit icons!" Don't assume anything - whether you think you've edited a module entry or not. Always look at the icons!

[swest]

Right. I made note of that back in my earlier post: it is FG's record of the state of that entry that matters.

- s.west