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CMP Mynex
September 9th, 2005, 20:16
Well all, it's been a long while coming with lots of hoops to jump through, organs to grind (take that however you like :twisted: ), and banana bribery, but it's finally (almost) here!

The 1st Wizards of the Coast Module in Fantasy Grounds!!!

The Sunless Citadel is a huge, pretty pretty, module. :D

Prepared by Thore Ironrock and his Digital Adventures team, it's a solid piece of work, you can bank that! :D

There's only one item that needs to be completed before it's officially released, but that will happen over this weekend, and we expect it for a Monday release at the latest, but it available for Preorder now from our webstore here (http://www.codemonkeypublishing.com/xcart/product.php?productid=17133&cat=395&page=1)!!!

WolfStar76
September 11th, 2005, 21:31
Huz-feakin-ZAH!

My party is about halfway through Sunless Citadel and I've been dreading drawing the lower portion of the dungeon (it's huge, my map skills are meager, then I have to retype all the rooms, etc etc etc).

Monday morning you say? Hmmm. . . game night is tonight. . . hope they don't progress too far.

*runs off giddily for his credit card*

{EDIT}

You have a preorder page? Even better. Insert tons of thankyous here.

CMP Mynex
September 13th, 2005, 05:02
It's released now... so have at it. :)

(Forge of Fury is next in the qeue btw. :D)

Illrigger
September 13th, 2005, 05:52
It's released now... so have at it. :)

(Forge of Fury is next in the qeue btw. :D)
Or queue, as the case may be ;)

I'm DLing right now, Thanks Mynex!

CMP Mynex
September 13th, 2005, 06:44
It's released now... so have at it. :)

(Forge of Fury is next in the qeue btw. :D)
Or queue, as the case may be ;)

I'm DLing right now, Thanks Mynex!

Bah! Splleign! Who needs it! ;)

I blame my wireless keyboard battery! Yea! That's the ticket! :P

Illrigger
September 13th, 2005, 07:41
This is a BEAUTIFUL product, and really shows off both the module and the capabilities of FG. It's a new standard to be lived up to. Thore and crew are to be commended for their work here, as as the monkeys at CMP who did the original conversion. WELL worth the $7.50.

One question, for Thore or anyone else who can answer: how can I make this work in the D20-SRD ruleset? It only shows up on the D20 set. :(

-Jeremy

WolfStar76
September 13th, 2005, 12:48
You're still a step ahead of me. I just downloaded it this morning, but can't find the option in 1.05c to load a module. I can switch campaigns easily, but there's no "module" option.

*scratches head furiously, pick out nit, tosses into fire*

That should be an option on the page where I load the current "campaign" right?

Because I'm looking at that screen, and not seeing a module option with the module freshly installed. Take a look-see yourself. . .

http://www.wackychaco.com/dustin/no_module.jpg

WolfStar76
September 13th, 2005, 13:12
Bah, nevermind. Found the option in-game.

Well done to the programmers, but if I may, I have *one* critique.

The Player-view map of the Citadel level. I was about to start masking this, but I notice that in the round entrance room, the "secret door" is HUGE and marked with a big red "S".

My options for unmasking this room (that in my campaign, the players have already been through) means I either have to not show them this wall, or I have to let them "see" the secret door.

When I drew this map for my own use with players, I simply didn't add that door on their map. That way, I'm able to umask all the way to the wall. *I* still see and know about the secret room, but I'm also able to show the players that, as far as they know, it's a blank wall at first glance.

I can do quickie screenshots of that section of wall and the room beyond if you like. It might better illustrate my point.

joshuha
September 13th, 2005, 13:19
Yeah this a problem with a straight translation in a game where you can show a map directly to the players. I know alot of FG adventures include a seperate player's map that doesn't have secret doors and also has a pixel space or so between a room and secret door room for masking options.

You could probably load the map into Photoshop and cpoy the texture from the nearest floor tile over the S part that is in the room. Then zoom in real close and pixel by pixel fix the wall. I realize thats a pain.

The only other option is to redo the whole map or give your players a blank pane and let them draw the map by hand.

WolfStar76
September 13th, 2005, 14:05
Agreed, but I'm hoping it was just an oversight.

For example, the traps have been removed from the Player-view map (but show up on the GM map). I didn't have time to compare/contrast against the Interactive Adventures module this morning, and while you're right, I can spend some time this morning editing the player-view Citadel Level map, it would be nice if the gang at CMP and Digital Adventures would make the edit in the module so that I don't have to. :) The product is 98% perfect, but if I have to spend all this time re-editing the maps, I'll just go back to drawing my own. . . which is what I wanted to avoid. ;)

Anyhow, just one critique, perhaps a future revision of the module will resolve this, or perhaps they'll keep it in mind for future modules (Forge of Fury anyone? :) )

CMP Mynex
September 13th, 2005, 16:13
Showing in game modes

Keep in mind this was prepared before 1.0.5c came out, so the capability to list what game modes it shows in wasn't about at that time.

This module is also 100% self contained, so it doesn't require the SRD/d20 rule set. But it shouldn't be an issue for an update to get it to display in the various game modes.


Map issue (secret door)

This was a simple oversight from Thore's crew... the maps for SC are freakin HUGE with tons of details! :D

But, this to will get addressed in an update.

The IA's built under Campaign Cartographer Pro have player & gm maps for everything, and again back to pre-1.0.5c built module, the zoom function wasn't about, so it would have been very easy to miss this during the conversion.

But have no fear! We shall get an update in place as soon as we can! :)

WolfStar76
September 13th, 2005, 16:41
Excellent news, Mynex. :)

For now, my party got to the hole in the floor, and as GM I'll just encourage them to head downstairs instead of "mopping up this floor" for the time being.

By the time you get the updated version/fix installed, I'll be all set. ;)

Thore_Ironrock
September 13th, 2005, 22:15
Regarding the issues posted today, I will look at them later tonight per Mynex's request.


Thanks!

Nursenut
September 13th, 2005, 23:26
Hiya
Just downloaded SC module, but cant find it. I have it listed in the module activation window but no maps or anything. What am I doing wrong?

Btw Im using current FG version

Thanks

Thore_Ironrock
September 13th, 2005, 23:26
Folks,

Regarding postings on issues with Sunless Citadel:

Map
Sorry Rob, but the player map is your fault. :D That is the one you sent me; however, I will take blame for not catching it.

Also, since CMP is selling the MOD file and not the campaign files, I'm not sure how we're going to deal with this. I can touch up the map in Photoshop and send it to Rob, but he is going to have to figure out a way to get it to those of you who have purchased the product already. He will either have to supply you with a new MOD, or you'll have to add it to the campaign that you're opening the MOD in. I had Rob's mapper remove many of the things in the players map they cannot see, sorry these got overlooked.

Complete SRD
This product was developed for the default d20 ruleset. Everything you need to run SC is in that ruleset, or was added to the text. I compiled SC long before CSRD was done. I see the issue with the MOD not showing up in the CSRD ruleset -- not sure why that is happening. Probably because the MOD was compiled with the default ruleset. Unless Ville has a some sort of patch for this, you cannot get the CSRD to work with SC unless Rob sells you the actual campaign files. That is his call and not mine.

Game Mode
I'm a little in the dark on this option/setting. I will be doing research on it shortly. However, and again, because Rob is selling this in a MOD those that purchased it may have to be issued a new MOD for fixes. Again, I don't know enough about "game modes" to comment on this now. If anyone has a work around for this please post it.


Recap: I will send an edited map and MOD to Rob ASAP. How he gets it to you folks is up to him. Any more issues guys let me know.

Thanks for the compliments!

Nursenut
September 13th, 2005, 23:29
Nevermind. I'm a bonehead. Found it!

Still getting used to the system.

Looks great!

Thore_Ironrock
September 14th, 2005, 00:01
One point on the maps I just saw ... apparently once you open the MOD in a campaign it does uncompress the maps. At that point you can copy over a new one. I believe that will work for a fix outside of Rob supplying a whole new MOD.

Also, be warned that because the MOD is so large it will take a moment to open up with you click the little MOD circle. Don't click it multiple times or you'll crash your active session ...

... he says from experience.
:lol:

Illrigger
September 14th, 2005, 01:05
I got Sunless Citadel working in the CSRD :D

All you need to do is open the CSRD's base.xml and add the following just above the </root> entry:



<importinfo>
<acceptfrom ruleset="d20" />
</importinfo>


This makes the CSRD compatible with the d20 sets' modules. Who would have guessed, it helps to read the patch notes carefully ;)

This will also work for those who have made custom campaign rulesets and want to use .mods with them.

CMP Mynex
September 14th, 2005, 01:50
I got Sunless Citadel working in the CSRD :D

All you need to do is open the CSRD's base.xml and add the following just above the </root> entry:



<importinfo>
<acceptfrom ruleset="d20" />
</importinfo>


This makes the CSRD compatible with the d20 sets' modules. Who would have guessed, it helps to read the patch notes carefully ;)

This will also work for those who have made custom campaign rulesets and want to use .mods with them.

Excellent news! Glad that was buried in the release notes for you to find. ;)

I think that I'll have Kevin adjust the xml file to allow this to show in the CSRD mode as the official 'default' for the modules. :)

Kevin - this was the "Campaign Mode" thing I was trying to remember! :D

Steel_Wind
September 14th, 2005, 05:09
I picked up the Sunless Citadel this morning and had a chance to go over it this eve.

Technically, it's a great example of how to put together a solid product and for that reason alone I think it's worth the money and is recommended to all FG DMs.

Some of the new maps in the module, particularly building interiors, are a tad weak artwise. They are serviceable for in game use but the floor texture used on them tiles *far* too much and detracts from the overall presentation. They look rushed. I would try to minimize texture tiling in the future. (Computer art is not everyone's forte).

The one thing I expected to see was custom tokens for each of the encounters in the module. These are not present and, IMO, should be for a complete presentation. This merits a deduction and, along with some of the map textures, are my only real complaints so far.

The text and story organization is very good and makes excellent use of hot links within FG's Story Editor. This is extremely well done and should serve as a precedent to the entire community on how to present a PnP conversion.

Overall, a solid effort and a very good example of how to translate a PnP product to FG. Given that the market for this product is a niche within a niche, the production values are reasonably decent, if not very good, subject to some of the maps and the absence of tokens (which I found disappointing).

4 out of 5 stars

Thore_Ironrock
September 14th, 2005, 23:29
Robert,

Thanks for the review. Regarding the maps and tokens (which were your main complaints on the product) I'll let Rob make an official statement from CMP. As the developer, I will say that I actually like the maps a lot. They are based on CMP's Interactive Adventures product, and I think they are much better than the B&W versions that were released with the original product. Perhaps you will change your mind when you see IA.

As for the tokens, I will make this suggestion. There are several illos included with the adventure simply for fluff, and they can be easly cropped for 50x50 icons.

As for releasing tokens in general, that is a difficult thing for some. In some cases a company may have to pay and artist to reuse their art in another format other than the printed product (often referred to as 1st print rights), and then it becomes an extra expense for the publisher. I have commented on this in another thread recently if you want a more specific reference:

http://forums.fantasygrounds.com/viewtopic.php?t=1012

On the flip side there are several people out there putting out plenty of tokens for the community, so I guess you have to take it with a grain of salt.

In the end, I'm more excited that you enjoyed the product's presentation. Since that was our (DA's & CMP's) first offering, we're happy to get feedback so we can make the next one (Forge of Fury) even better.

Best Regards,

CMP Mynex
September 15th, 2005, 02:20
I was going to quote it, but realized that I'd only be addressing a tiny bit of that post... so...

The tile floor and tokens absence!

Tile floor
I think that's going to end up being a personal opinion on a person by person case. You weren't overly fond of it, Thore like it, I personally like it, one of my partners doesn't... So, yea, definately a case by case there. :D

Tokens Absence
This one bugs me too. Its bugged me since we did the Interactive Adventures under Campaign Cartographer Pro (for 'at the table' play)...

So I've been talking with some companies about tokens... that have produced tokens or mini's to make their stuff into electronic tokens for the stuff we kick out.

This hasn't firmed up totally, but it's getting there.

To address what Thore said about artists and whatnot - yea, we looked into that, and it was prohibitively expensive. So, no tokens.

Also as noted, there are a TON of tokens already. While maybe not an optimal solution, better to leave out tokens and let the users pick their own to put into place than to have crappy tokens. :p

Thanks for the positive review, we already have some plans to update SC based on how Forge of Fury gets worked out with the 1.5 FG tabbing stuff... So the product is only going to get better. :)

Thore_Ironrock
September 15th, 2005, 03:05
I got Sunless Citadel working in the CSRD :D

All you need to do is open the CSRD's base.xml and add the following just above the </root> entry:



<importinfo>
<acceptfrom ruleset="d20" />
</importinfo>


This makes the CSRD compatible with the d20 sets' modules. Who would have guessed, it helps to read the patch notes carefully ;)

This will also work for those who have made custom campaign rulesets and want to use .mods with them.

Thank you Illrigger! I will work with Rob on this for SC and future products. What I'm thinking we might do is include comprehensive directions with the download on what to do in certain situations with the MOD file. Once I get the game mode thing figure out, and a few more changes for Rob, he will likely post something to all who have downloaded the product. He already has the touched up Player map, so the rest should be done probably by the weekend.

Thanks again Illrigger!!! :D

Thore_Ironrock
September 15th, 2005, 22:08
Gents,

I also received this email today from Ville on these issues:

<thanks Ville!>

***********************

if you start a new campaign and select the Complete SRD ruleset, FG will
use the database structure of the C-SRD (instead of the out-of-the-box d20). Because FG per se cannot verify that these two rulesets are compatible, it does not allow for activating the module made for d20 in C-SRD. With the patch 1.05 we came up with an additional tag, that allows the maker of a ruleset to 'declare' that the ruleset is compatible with other rulesets. Say, I made a few houserules to the C-SRD, and wanted to be able to use modules exported from d20 and C-SRD, I would place in my /rulesets/C_SRD_Ville/base.xml the tags:

<importinfo>
<acceptfrom ruleset="d20" />
<acceptfrom ruleset="C-SRD" />
</importinfo>

In the case of Complete SRD ruleset, the tag decalring it compatible with d20 is of course only,

<importinfo>
<acceptfrom ruleset="d20" />
</importinfo>

That is of course, if you know that the C-SRD is compatible, to the extent that all module info is compatible, with d20, which _seems_ to be the case (somebody at the forums already told doing this):
http://forums.fantasygrounds.com/viewtopic.php?t=1041&start=17

What actually goes out as a module from a given ruleset is only that, which is defined to go out, eg in d20 ruleset in the d20_exportinfo.xml (it is
irrelevant where the tags are, but in that ruleset they are in the said file):

<exportinfo>
<node name="encounter" />
<node name="image" />
<node name="npc" />
<node name="item" />
</exportinfo>

where (for historical reasons) encounter=story pages, image=images,
npc=personalities and item=items. In particular, anything that is read in as
<staticdata> stays out of a module, e.g. reference material.

Bottom line, if the definition code of story pages, images, personalities and
items in C-SRD have at least the same tags than d20-ruleset, the declaration of compliance can be made in base.xml. If some of those tags are missing, the module would still probably work with the ruleset, but as some data is not displayed, that would be missing from the user interface of FG.
*****************************

Hope this all helps folks. If people have anymore questions or issues please post them. In the meantime we'll sheer up the product and include a FAQ along with it.


Regards,

WolfStar76
September 18th, 2005, 12:55
Taking a closer look at the player maps in Sunless Citadel today, and wanted to point out these additional items for reconsideration:

* Secret doors on the citadel level (already mentioned)

* Treasure Chests - used as clickables in the Interactive Adventures module to tell the GM what treasures were to be found in a room. Those chests are still on the player maps. It won't take most parties long to figure out "Hey, there's stuff to be had here if we just keep looking". (Both levels)

* Squares with red bars on them (See room 29 on the Citadel Level). These only show on the GM map in Interactive adventures, and are used to describe traps. (Citadel Level)

* Lock symbols to denote locked doors. Not a big deal here, really, if a door is locked the PCs are gonna learn that quickly enough. However, it can also mean they start to know which doors to open "first". "That door's locked? Must be something good there!" (Citadel Level)

* Red-dashed line to indicate secret passageways. See room 52 on the Grove level map for a sample of this. This red line only shows on the GM view of the Interactive Adventures module, but is very apparent on the player map in Fantasy Grounds. To a lesser degree, this is also a problem in room 11 on the Citadel Level. (Citadel and Grove Level)

I think my workaround, for the time being, is going to just be to make screenshots of the Player maps in the IA module, and thanks to FG's new zoom feature, lay those down as my maps. The only icons that show on those maps are the "F" for Flavor Text, and I don't care if my party can see that.

Sorry to be critical guys. Everything else is SO spot-on (not so much as a typo that I can find), but maps are a HUGE part of FG, and having a map that reveals too much just kinda puts a damper on things.

That said, I still can't thank CMP and DA enough for doing this in the first place. Here's to waiting semi-patiently for the "fixed maps" revision. :lol:

{EDIT}
As long as I'm wish-listing here. . . it would also be nice if the images were categorized. One category for maps, one for the city (and its maps), one for the monster images, etc.

But that's just a wishlist. :) I can do that myself once the module is installed.

WolfStar76
November 7th, 2005, 21:00
Soooo. . .

. . . I know the Monkies are busy with data set updates, RPGT, and all the other stuff that you work so hard on. . . but could we get an update on where we stand with the re-issue of this module?

Thore_Ironrock
November 7th, 2005, 22:10
I have sent changes to CMP. If you want more info email him direct at:

[email protected]

Yraen
November 27th, 2005, 12:41
Okay . . . so call me dumb . . . but I bought this a couple of days ago and am wondering what exactly am I supposed to have available? I've read about story pages but so far, I've only been able to access the images. When do these story pages kick in? The maps are nice but I could've done them myself.

WolfStar76
December 18th, 2005, 01:41
Ummm, not sure what you mean by story pages, but if you mean the individual room/encounter descriptions, the big red book on the upper-right hand side of the DM's desktop you can see the indiviually numbered descriptions and room items.

Likewise, the "personalities" tab lists all the NPCs that are part of this module.

Of course, you have to have the module loaded in order to see all that, but it sounds like you already have that down since you see the maps.

As far as knowing what entry is keyed to what room, the DM maps lists that info pretty well. You can also use the new bookmarking feature to link each description to each room, which is what I did for my player map, so I didn't have to have so many windows open.

I forget the exact process for that, but I think you just hold CTRL and drag the linkbox from the "story" book to the room(s) that it describes. Then, when you're looking at the map and hold CTRL, you can open that room description quickly and easily.

Hope that helps.

Yraen
December 18th, 2005, 19:58
Thanks for that, WolfStar76. I've discovered that I didn't have all the relevant patches installed . . . d'oh! It's all working fine now.

joshuha
January 21st, 2006, 14:27
Have all the minor issues with maps and secret doors and what not brought up in this thread been addressed? If I go an purchase this module will it have those changes reflected or is there another patch file I would need to download from somewhere?

Mynex
January 29th, 2006, 18:56
Have all the minor issues with maps and secret doors and what not brought up in this thread been addressed? If I go an purchase this module will it have those changes reflected or is there another patch file I would need to download from somewhere?

At the moment, the issues have been fixed, but they have not been put up into the store as of yet.

The hold off has been waiting for the Forge of Fury to be approved to put both of them in place at once, however, if it's not approved this coming week, then I will place the update to SC up for people to download (SC has been updated to work with 1.5f - that was part of the delay).

DarkStar
February 25th, 2006, 19:32
So, have the modules been updated so far? I want to buy the Citadel, but I want it fixed. ;)

Thore_Ironrock
February 25th, 2006, 19:40
So, have the modules been updated so far? I want to buy the Citadel, but I want it fixed. ;)

Yep! Even so, if there are more "fixes" to be done on any DA or CMP product we've been making sure all previous purchasers get updated versions.

DarkStar
February 28th, 2006, 21:45
Oh, one more question. The original adventure was for D&D 3.0, did you update yours to 3.5 rules, or is it just like the one published on paper?

Thore_Ironrock
March 1st, 2006, 00:02
Oh, one more question. The original adventure was for D&D 3.0, did you update yours to 3.5 rules, or is it just like the one published on paper?

CMP's Interactive Adventures has both. The FG version is 3.5.

:D

DarkStar
March 1st, 2006, 11:18
CMP's Interactive Adventures has both. The FG version is 3.5.


So, you changed the number of monsters in the encounters or what? :) What kind of modifications were needed to bring The Sunless Citadel to 3.5 D&D?

Thore_Ironrock
March 1st, 2006, 22:09
So, you changed the number of monsters in the encounters or what? :) What kind of modifications were needed to bring The Sunless Citadel to 3.5 D&D?

Mostly monster stats. Quite a few monster stats were changed from 3.0 to 3.5, along with a few skills. Those were the kind of changes we made. Nothing major, but they were all approved by WOTC.

;)