Feature request: Beyond Tokens - Virtual Miniatures

[ToddLandon]

Beyond Tokens - Virtual Miniatures

What if you could make a virtual miniature and the object would have 4 to 8 states so the players or DM could click on it and drag an arrow out to set the direction it is facing.

then i could make a 3D model of some NPC or a PC and render it from above facing up, down, left, and right and maybe even on 45 degree angels to represent all the directions.

it would be cool to right click and get a stat card pop up window.

to me miniatures are a big deal and i would love to make and collect virtual miniatures

i would make a base set first one for each class then add variations for different race.

i was thinking mostly for the PCs because it would take about a hundred years to make all the monsters in D&D out there. but i would make some for bosses and special characters.

I'm sorry if this has already been talked about on the board i did not see anything about it.
I have not actually used FG yet but i plan on it, i just can't stop playing FABLE :)

But i just wanted to say Fantasy Grounds is the most impressive thing i have seen in a long time... so nice job Smite Works!

[Snikle]

Whoa, personally I think would be amazing, but I also think it would be overwhelming and cut off some of the developement that others are doing for FG. How many people have 3d design ability compared to how many can take one of the millions of piece of fantasy art out there and make a token using whatever art program? I do like the idea of different states, perhaps the DM could have a popup menu that allows them to set flag on tokens when they are dead, unconscious, or when it ia their turn. Course this goes back to my wanting to be able to link tokens and characters/personalities/monsters, so that this token 'belongs' to this character sheet or player, this one to this monster, etc.

I do like the idea: "it would be cool to right click and get a stat card pop up window. " but again this goes back to linking tokens to players/characters. I would like to be able to pull up a character sheet and it has the token in the upper right or left corner, then you could drag it to a map and it is automaticly labeled with their name, can only be moved by DM and that player, and (your idea) right click on it and the mini-sheet opens up. Better yet, how about a tooltip pop up that would list name, HP, AC, etc?

[Dupre]

We plan on improving the integration between tokens and personalities. You will see some of this in 1.06.

The idea of using 3D tokens/models is something we have discussed, but the challenge there is making it easy enough for people to get their 3D models imported along with textures. This though will not be part of the 1.06 patch, but perhaps the next one.

[ToddLandon]

but the challenge there is making it easy enough for people to get their 3D models imported along with textures

this would be even cooler if it actually supported true 3d models but i was thinking of just rendering them like 3d sprites (2d pictures/renderings of 3d objects) . I'm not sure they would need to be true 3d geometry unless you planed on making the whole table 3d so you could tip and spin the map around or is this what has been purposed? Now that would be sooooo cool! :)

or maybe you could support all 3 or 4 types of representation: point, token, sprite, and 3D. because there is a need for them all really at different levels of zoom you would have a dot or point if they are on a map of the continent and as you zoom in to city level it is replaced with a token, and further in at dungeon or extreme close up as a sprite or 3d model.

[ToddLandon]

How many people have 3d design ability compared to how many can take one of the millions of piece of fantasy art out there and make a token using whatever art program?

first Snikle you are right the real need is first for the functionality.

i was wondering if anyone knows for the people that can't draw or model they are just making tokens out of existing art right? and this is for personal use. would there be a copyright problem (if you are not trying to sell them and make a profit from them) if you take pictures of miniatures you already own and use them in FG? I will try to look into this.

if this is legal and the sprite method is implemented almost anyone could make virtual miniatures about as easily as the tokens.

[Snikle]

Hmmm, can you explain what you mean by "3D tokens/models"? Are you saying basicly converting the entire imaging sysem over to a 3d style? While I think it sure would be neat to be able to have a flat map on the table with 3d miniatures ticking out into space, I really thik that the current way is more than ample and the amount of time to make and get the 3d system up and running, would be better served elsewhere in the development.

Are there allot of people out there ready to start making a bunch of 3d minatures? Will there be 3d maps then?

[Snikle]

ToddLandon, you are right, I am not saying people should make and then resell the art made by others, I was merely saying that the ability to make a token is fairly easy to come by (bet 90% of us here have or could do it) compared to a much smaller group that has the software for rendering 3d images. UNLESS the minatures would all be made from stock wireframes and we could load the textures that would then be applied over these fireframes. That would not be too difficult to do really. Could break down the wireframes into sizes, humanoid (small, med, large, giant), then have common ones such as dragon, spider, etc.
But that being said I still think that is allot of work on the devs side that could be better spent elsewhere (connectivity and stability issues, linking tokens with pcs :wink: , etc).

[ToddLandon]

well i do think a true 3d system would not be necessary in my original suggestion i just meant that it would be neat if the players game representation “token” could include the ability to have states like frames (a picture of a miniature from above facing left, right, up, and down at minimum) and then have a way to change its different states so you could make it face the appropriate direction. so this would look like a miniature on the table.

Function is way more important than eye candy but in the same breath let me say miniatures is how D&D/RPG came into being. they are at its roots and are a lot of peoples favored part of playing at the table. It is how D&D was meant to be played, with miniatures and your dungeon gridded out.

[Snikle]

What about doing something like this in the mean time? Not ideal I know, but if you want to know where someone is facing (rule laywers!!! :wink: ) it might work for the time being. I think it would be great if there was a way in FG to do facing sperate from the token, though then it would limit our ability to create tokens easily I think.

Here one goblin is facing left, and the other right.
https://sylnae.net/img/fg/tokenidea.jpg

[ToddLandon]

yes Snikle your arrow idea will work just fine for directions for now with the current tokens.

does anyone know the current format a token must conform to, pixels and image type?

i thought i saw something about 100x100 and use .png file

for now you could use the picture of a miniature facing in a single direction and then use arrows like you have to show direction.

but in the future i would just love to see Miniatures be a part of the virtual table top i think they are a core component to what makes D&D D&D.

[Snikle]

Hey ToddLandon, I threw up some tokens using the red arrow idea, you can view them here: https://www.sylnae.net/fg.php

[kepli]

Excellent idea guys ...

I'm going to try to make 3D renders of a few creatures and then use 8 different arrow tokens to denote directions.

If the tokens could be rotated ... ;)

(hey, I'm an Artisan now ... wonder if I can post as much here as at the DJ forum :lol: )

[SikSavant]

While the facing arrow is interesting, I'm curious as to it's actual use. Since d20 uses six-second rounds, there is no facing per se. You simply attack whatever is in range during your turn. I'm concerned that facing arrows are a solution to a problem we don't have...at least not in d20. And for GMs who don't use facing, having tokens with arrows are likely to be confusing for some players. Dunno.

[Snikle]

But it could come into play during roleplaying, say a PC is wanting to sneak up on an orc and where the orc is facing at that moment is important for knowning where the PC can move without being seen, for those of us that will rely on the player's abiity rather than a simple die roll to say 'nope he doesn't see you'. Just guessing, I haven't used the arrow in play yet, but the players I have shown it to like the idea of the facing arrow. ????

[SikSavant]

Well, I guess one must understand that the d20 system has abstracted everything, especially combat and character types (the class system). Sneaking up behind somebody is really handled at the GM/PC interface and then further supported by the Move Silently and Spot/Listen checks until success or failure is determined.

PC: I want to sneak up behind the orc...
GM: You see that the orc is fidgety, perhaps anxious from being on watch. His line of vision changes constantly, and you suspect it will be difficult to catch him unawares.

Now the PC may still attempt to get behind the orc anyway with bonuses being applied to the orc's Spot/Listen checks. In my book anyway... :D

I've played in systems (like GURPS) where everything is micromanaged by the second (position, facing, multi-turn reloads, etc.)...I found that the GURPS system conflicted with my form of storytelling. I think a healthy amount of abstraction is good in this hobby. So it goes...

[kepli]

You make a good point SikSavant (nice to see you here :wink: ) ...
I roleplay those encounters too, so I will probably only use the arrows to describe in what direction a creature is moving. That can be easily done by the arrow in FG itself though ... hmmm

[SteveG]

I didn't see it mentioned in this thread after the question was raised by Kepli about rotating tokens.

Right-Click on a token and on the radial are options to rotate left or right by 45 degrees increments.

SteveG

[SikSavant]

Heya Kepli! Keeping those Dundjinni folks in line? :D

Seems like rotating a token should have a keyboard shortcut. Rotating a token 180 currently requires 4 mouse interactions. I'd much rather hover my cursor over the token and press [ or ] a number of times.

[Ged]

Not exactly the same, but you do have a mouse shortcut, if you have a wheel on your mouse. Hover over the token and wheel on...

[richvalle]

Not exactly the same, but you do have a mouse shortcut, if you have a wheel on your mouse. Hover over the token and wheel on...

Yep. I keep doing this by mistake when I want to zoom in on a map. :)

rv

[SikSavant]

Wow! That's good to know (scroll wheel, that is)...a big thank you!

And to the developers...exactly where is any of this documented? Or the command line options...or the /module command...or...?

Please tell me that eventually the manual will be as impressive as the software itself.

[kepli]

Ah ... did not know that ... excellent :D

[ToddLandon]

Thanks Snikle for the link nice stuff on your page, when i get some time i will try to make some examples of what I am trying to describe for the miniatures.

[Dupre]

And to the developers...exactly where is any of this documented? Or the command line options...or the /module command...or...?

Manual update is slowly creeping up our issues list and we'll try to get that in with next patch (1.06 aka Great Many Things) or we might even put it on the website as soon as it's done. Mind you though, that this patch is pretty big and we just started working on it.

[Craw]

Used it last night in Snickle's game. Worked great. While I agree that facing has no specific impact on d20 mechanics, it was kind of nice to use to show that your character inched up to a coriidor and then looked each way. You can actually see the other players' tokens turning left and right and it adds flavor.

By the way, zoom rocks.

[Snikle]

Jeez, you would think my players would know how to spell my name.......



:P
(Glad to have you in our group Claw!)

[Spyke]

I've played in systems (like GURPS) where everything is micromanaged by the second (position, facing, multi-turn reloads, etc.)...I found that the GURPS system conflicted with my form of storytelling. I think a healthy amount of abstraction is good in this hobby. So it goes...

As a passionate GURPS player I agree, and it's worth pointing out that the new 4ed makes it very clear that position and facing are optional rules (in their own chapter) for those wanting tactical, miniature-based combat. I've played using the GURPS abstract basic combat system quite happily for 15 years.

[Desdain]

Used it last night in Snickle's game. Worked great. While I agree that facing has no specific impact on d20 mechanics, it was kind of nice to use to show that your character inched up to a coriidor and then looked each way. You can actually see the other players' tokens turning left and right and it adds flavor.

By the way, zoom rocks.

No impact on d20 mechanics? Ever hear of Flanking and Sneak attacks?


-Des

[kalmarjan]

Craw wrote:
Used it last night in Snickle's game. Worked great. While I agree that facing has no specific impact on d20 mechanics, it was kind of nice to use to show that your character inched up to a coriidor and then looked each way. You can actually see the other players' tokens turning left and right and it adds flavor.

By the way, zoom rocks.


No impact on d20 mechanics? Ever hear of Flanking and Sneak attacks?


I think what he is referring to is that in 3.5 facing is no longer an issue. To flank someone, you simply have two opponents that can draw a line through the enemy's square and connect with their ally. Sneak attacks are now possible anytime the opponent loses their bonus to dexterity, or when flanked.

So, with d20 mechanics as they are today, facing is no longer an issue.

Hope this helps,

Cheers,

[Ram Tyr]

Just to be really clear about this (and maybe avoid the question of providing proof), since this seems to be a major cause of confusion in the player base of D&D (not just using FG either), lets take a peek at some resources.

Flanking (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#flanking)

When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner.

When in doubt about whether two friendly characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two friendly characters’ centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent’s space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.

Exception: If a flanker takes up more than 1 square, it gets the flanking bonus if any square it occupies counts for flanking.

Only a creature or character that threatens the defender can help an attacker get a flanking bonus.

Creatures with a reach of 0 feet can’t flank an opponent.


Sneak Attack (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm)

If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.

With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual -4 penalty.

A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.



Finally, to remove all doubt, note the following text from Unearthed Arcana, p. 124:

"The combat rules in the Player's Handbook intentionally ignore the direction a creature faces. The rules assume that creatures are constantly moving and shifting within their spaces, looking in all directions during a fight."

UA then goes on to provide variant rules.


Anyone know whether there is facing in the "Miniatures" game? That might, at least partially, explain the confusion I've seen on this. (It can't all be caused by old rules because some of the misunderstanding comes from relatively new players.) Some people assume that the rules from D&D and Miniatures are the same.

May not be so. In any event, there you go.

Ramza

[Craw]

Used it last night in Snickle's game. Worked great. While I agree that facing has no specific impact on d20 mechanics, it was kind of nice to use to show that your character inched up to a coriidor and then looked each way. You can actually see the other players' tokens turning left and right and it adds flavor.

By the way, zoom rocks.

No impact on d20 mechanics? Ever hear of Flanking and Sneak attacks?


-Des

Neither flanking nor sneak attack are dependent on the facing of the target or the attacker. You flank depending on the relevant position of the attackers, not their facing. You can sneak attack someone from right in front of them.

[Craw]

Jeez, you would think my players would know how to spell my name.......



:P
(Glad to have you in our group Claw!)

Save vs. typo = 1 Doh!
Player Bible Commandment 1: Do not irritate the DM.
Player Bible Commandment 2: See commandment 1.

[Craw]

Anyone know whether there is facing in the "Miniatures" game? That might, at least partially, explain the confusion I've seen on this. (It can't all be caused by old rules because some of the misunderstanding comes from relatively new players.) Some people assume that the rules from D&D and Miniatures are the same.
Ramza

No facing in D&D Miniatures. Most miniatures wargames, however, do include facing rules.

[Desdain]

I see, I suppose I must be bringing in baggage memory from previous incarnations of the game. Regardless, back on the track of the current thread.. the idea was if a facing would be useful. Because d20 is only *one* of many ways to roleplay.. I think it would be worth considering.

Sometimes I wonder if they simply come up with new gimic rules that really add no value to the gameplay, but rather give them a vehicle to sell more rulebooks.