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dulux-oz
September 5th, 2016, 09:03
Hi All,

I just stumbled across this article (while doing some research for my own game system) and thought it valuable enough to post a link to it here.

D&D: Calibrating Your Expectations (https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/587/roleplaying-games/dd-calibrating-your-expectations-2)

Don't worry that it's a D&D article - it applies to ALL RPGs :)

I STRONGLY encourage EVERYONE to read this one - I really think it's that important!

Cheers

GunnarGreybeard
September 5th, 2016, 09:13
I think the link is borked?

dulux-oz
September 5th, 2016, 10:27
I think the link is borked?

Not anymore - thanks Gunnar :)

Mask_of_winter
September 5th, 2016, 10:53
I'll probably sound like a total troll but... I fail to see how this is anything other than arguments to throw at a D&D 3.5 rule lawyers' face. As a non-D&D 3rd edition player I found nothing that applies to me or the games I play. Sorry.

dulux-oz
September 5th, 2016, 11:01
@Mask: You've missed the point (btw: I don't play 3.5E either) - its about thinking about how our games are structured/designed and how we go about our expectations of which system we're telling our stories with - didn't you get that from the article (not reading it: comprehending it)?

Mask_of_winter
September 5th, 2016, 11:13
@Mask: You've missed the point (btw: I don't play 3.5E either) - its about thinking about how our games are structured/designed and how we go about our expectations of which system we're telling our stories with - didn't you get that from the article (not reading it: comprehending it)?
This is like the Bible, everybody has their own interpretation of it :)

dulux-oz
September 5th, 2016, 11:16
This is like the Bible, everybody has their own interpretation of it :)

I'm sorry that you didn't get anything out of it :)

Kitilark
September 5th, 2016, 14:26
"The point is that you find that “sweet spot” and then you tinker with one aspect of the system, rather than trying to redo the whole thing.

And the first step in finding that “sweet spot” is to recognize what the numbers really mean. Which neatly takes us back to the beginning premise of the essay. (I wouldn’t suggest going back and re-reading it like a literary ouroboros, though. It’s long enough as it is.) "

Thanks Dulux-Oz, this article is both relevant today and informative.

One Tec-kie bit. I am on Windows 10 (1607) and Microsoft Edge could not open the file. A quick copy link and paste in to Google Chrome and it was there. Please do not anyone think I am a computer person - I got this suggestion from the nice folks that support the Dungeon Masters Guild site, which I access on Google Chrome..
Kitty

Full Bleed
September 5th, 2016, 19:59
Interesting article, but past a few paragraphs I don't think it does all that great of a job of divesting itself far enough from the system it focuses on (3e-3.5e). It's pretty crunchy.

I also think it's interesting that the article, a decidedly pro-D&D 3e essay, came out on the eve of the 4e launch... a system that pretty much blew up 3e. He'd have a hard time writing the same article using 4e as his basis.


And from a critical standpoint, I have to take issue with the fact that he establishes a 5th Level baseline as top-dogs while using the skill system as the primary measuring stick and, consistently, putting his thumb on the scale by throwing around the "Skill Focus" feat (something that may apply to civilians, but not so much to the characters most players create). At any rate, I have a couple players that will find it a fun read.

Daedalus
September 6th, 2016, 03:20
@Mask: You've missed the point (btw: I don't play 3.5E either) - its about thinking about how our games are structured/designed and how we go about our expectations of which system we're telling our stories with - didn't you get that from the article (not reading it: comprehending it)?

I play role playing games to play a role. The story is what comes out of it, I am not running a role playing game to tell a story. The story is what comes out of the actions taken in the game.

This article represents D&D and not the games I play. I agree with Mask on this point

TMO
September 6th, 2016, 05:53
At first I was trying to reconcile the worth of the article in a D&D 5e world, but then I looked at the big picture and it made sense to me. One might quibble with the specific examples given and of course the specific rules of a given version of D&D might not work as well as 3-3.5e. Yet, for me the main take-away was the understanding that there is quite a bit of thought put into the rules and there is always a difficult balance between playability and realism. That doesn't mean the designers always get it right, but this is not as easy as it seems. And, no, I'm not trying to start a debate on whether the publishers are cutting corners to make a buck or that commercialism tends to over-rule fan input. I am simply pointing out that I benefited from the article in that I can view the game mechanics with a little more patience and realize that - perhaps - there might be more for my benefit and enjoyment than I may have originally given them credit for.

Black Hammer
September 6th, 2016, 19:37
So apparently, a good system is one where a character doesn't need to roll dice to succeed at their professional competencies?

I would agree. That's why I like GUMSHOE - Night's Black Agents, Trail of Cthulhu, etc.

gqwebb
September 7th, 2016, 02:24
Hi All,

I just stumbled across this article (while doing some research for my own game system) and thought it valuable enough to post a link to it here.

D&D: Calibrating Your Expectations (https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/587/roleplaying-games/dd-calibrating-your-expectations-2)

Don't worry that it's a D&D article - it applies to ALL RPGs :)

I STRONGLY encourage EVERYONE to read this one - I really think it's that important!

Cheers

GOOD READ, thanks I liked the number play and the bell curve. If you understand that then Catan is in the bag. I enjoy old school, so thanks again.

valiantcosmos
September 8th, 2016, 05:11
As someone pretty new to DnD, I found this article thought provoking in a very constructive way. I admit that as soon as I began to learn about DnD, I somehow formed a certain set of expectations, namely that I would be playing in a lesser capacity until I reached a sufficiently high level (10+ at least) and that reaching such a level should be my goal. But I can certainly imagine that a world of high level characters would result in dilemmas of the "what happens when an irresistable force meets an immovable object" sort, and would be a difficult ecosystem to keep in equilibrium. It's a refreshing perspective to think that the story arc doesn't have to take me from ordinary mortal to Zeus-like powers, and I like the idea of thinking in terms of there being a "sweet spot" in terms of level for a particular kind of story or adventure involving characters with a more limited range of powers. In fact, I suspect that the sweet spot for much of my adventure fantasies might be at a relatively low level. But this raises the following question for me: How can a game like DnD give players a satisfying sense of increasing accomplishment and growth if not through a rapid increase in their powers? (This last is not a rhetorical question).

damned
September 8th, 2016, 11:22
As someone pretty new to DnD, I found this article thought provoking in a very constructive way. I admit that as soon as I began to learn about DnD, I somehow formed a certain set of expectations, namely that I would be playing in a lesser capacity until I reached a sufficiently high level (10+ at least) and that reaching such a level should be my goal. But I can certainly imagine that a world of high level characters would result in dilemmas of the "what happens when an irresistable force meets an immovable object" sort, and would be a difficult ecosystem to keep in equilibrium. It's a refreshing perspective to think that the story arc doesn't have to take me from ordinary mortal to Zeus-like powers, and I like the idea of thinking in terms of there being a "sweet spot" in terms of level for a particular kind of story or adventure involving characters with a more limited range of powers. In fact, I suspect that the sweet spot for much of my adventure fantasies might be at a relatively low level. But this raises the following question for me: How can a game like DnD give players a satisfying sense of increasing accomplishment and growth if not through a rapid increase in their powers? (This last is not a rhetorical question).

There is a saying about the journey vs the destination... the big attraction for most people in RPGs is being able to interact with others without the rigidity/confines imposed by a computer game or board game. Fr some the goal might be level 20 - for many the goal is to enjoy the journey.

Minty23185Fresh
September 13th, 2016, 23:15
When I followed the link to an article written in 2007, my first thought was, "How is this possibly relevant today?" I gave Oz a pass, having read some of his other posts, blogs, work and recomendations and waded in. I'm happy to say I wasn't disappointed. I can understand how some might not like the taste of all the grit in the article. At times I needed waders to slog through the minutia, but personally I came away with an understanding of the difficulty of inventing and implementing a ruleset. Which one is irrevalent. It's amazing to me that rulesets get as much right as they do, afterall they're modeling the unvierse. There will always be are whiners and decriers of ruleset accuracy. I always try and often hugely fail to walk in the other guys shoes, to not become the critic. If one finds something so unpalatable, jump right in and try to do it yourself. The cheap seats are always easy.

As an aside, I found the blog so interesting that I'm delving into a few of The Alexandrian's other diatribes. Right now I'm working through the three-part Open Table concept. Enlightening. Thanks Oz.

dulux-oz
September 14th, 2016, 03:14
... I gave Oz a pass, having read some of his other posts, blogs, work and recommendations and waded in. I'm happy to say I wasn't disappointed...

...Thanks Oz.

You're welcome - and that's why you should ALWAYS trust your GM (even when it seems like we're trying to screw you over - I assure you, that's just a coincident. No, really!) :p