...Why don't people like the gestalt rules?

[MeKonopa]

Don't get me wrong, I greatly enjoy straight up D&D 3.5 and 5e. But I've been trying for years to get into a gestalt game and the general response I get is an 'ugh' of disgust. So, part of me is wondering just what people's problem is with 3.5 gestalt? I mean, it's part of the official rules and everything, and it just seems like a great way to play to me.

Overpowered perhaps? I suppose, but choosing two complementary classes just seems a great way to add balance and interest to a character.

Anyway, I'm just looking to see what everyone thinks about why 3.5 gestalt's such an unpopular game.

[Nickademus]

From what I've seen, gestalt has the stigma of seeming overpowered from the abundance of abilities and options it provides a character. I once thought the same, until I read a section on Gestalt characters from one of the 3.5e books (or perhaps the SRD). It pointed out that the characters gain longevity and versatility, but they don't actually gain the one thing that would make them more powerful: action economy. They still only get the same number of actions in a round and thus can't be anymore productive in combat than a normal character. They just can go longer and have more things to choose from for those actions.

Since then I've had a different opinion of gestalt. I might even play or run it one day (if I still did 3.5e).

[Lysander]

It also seems to me you can accelerate the challenge level of monsters a bit to counter the 'overpowered' argument...

I've tried running a gestalt 3.5e game in the past and it died after about 5 sessions due to reasons outside of gameplay. I made it a bit like x-men, the players were a cut above your 'typical' heroes. Not sure how it would work in 5e...

[Fatherdeath]

I play in a homebrew with gesalt rules in the pathfinder underdark on Tuesday mornings the DM made a few changes and house rules but I think it is a very interesting game

[Zacchaeus]

Well that's four of you. Sounds like you have a basis for a game :)

[Ken L]

Might as well play Exalted. The reason it's not popular is for the same reason you don't find many mythic games, and as you stated. The power curve is difficult to control, PF already has a strong power curve progression, this just throws it off the charts. It does however give lower level play more options.

[Curaidh]

To me Gestalt is making minmaxing too easy and accessible. For me RPGs were never about rolling the most dice and having the "strongest possible" character. That's why I severely dislike Gestalt, for me it caters to the wrong kind of player. No offense meant to anyone. If it's your cup of tea and you enjoy it that's fine.
If players would use Gestalt to give their characters actual depth my opinion might differ, but that's not my experience.

[Nylanfs]

Why not use a classless 35e system like Codex: The Persona or switch to Shadowrun.

[MeKonopa]

...why won't this site let me reply...? Ah-HAH! Finally.


From what I've seen, gestalt has the stigma of seeming overpowered from the abundance of abilities and options it provides a character. I once thought the same, until I read a section on Gestalt characters from one of the 3.5e books (or perhaps the SRD). It pointed out that the characters gain longevity and versatility, but they don't actually gain the one thing that would make them more powerful: action economy. They still only get the same number of actions in a round and thus can't be anymore productive in combat than a normal character. They just can go longer and have more things to choose from for those actions.

Since then I've had a different opinion of gestalt. I might even play or run it one day (if I still did 3.5e).
Ah, yes, sad but true. Pity the stigma was never actually shaken. On a side note, if I ever actually manage to join or start a gestalt game, either here or on Roll20, should I send you an invite?

It also seems to me you can accelerate the challenge level of monsters a bit to counter the 'overpowered' argument...

I've tried running a gestalt 3.5e game in the past and it died after about 5 sessions due to reasons outside of gameplay. I made it a bit like x-men, the players were a cut above your 'typical' heroes. Not sure how it would work in 5e...
Mmm... gestalt 5e... Creed. would. be. AWESOME! Sorry, sorry. I'm currently playing a multi-classed fighter/warlock. He's a frontline fighter who uses the warlock spells to round out his abilities. Having access to more spells would make him that much more rounded for war. And you used to run a gestalt game, you say? Ah, but I digress, you made a comment 'bout monsters. Yeah. One of my pet peeves when I was playing 3.5 was that the GM would pull barely a fraction of the monsters available to him from the variety of monster manuals he had. Since he was generally a GM who delighted in the breadth of material he had available, he was either being lazy or felt we couldn't handle some of the higher monsters despite being a party eight strong. In a gestalt game the odds that one person in the party wouldn't have access to some ability to handle a random monster would've been rather low, I think.

I play in a homebrew with gesalt rules in the pathfinder underdark on Tuesday mornings the DM made a few changes and house rules but I think it is a very interesting game
...so jealous...

Well that's four of you. Sounds like you have a basis for a game :)
I wish. Though you do have a point... Don't suppose I could interest you guys in a gestalt game...?

Might as well play Exalted. The reason it's not popular is for the same reason you don't find many mythic games, and as you stated. The power curve is difficult to control, PF already has a strong power curve progression, this just throws it off the charts. It does however give lower level play more options.
I suppose I can see how a curve like you describe would be daunting. I'm afraid I don't agree that the curve is quite that great, or that it'd be that unmanagable. My response to Lysander says it all for me, really: Stronger party, throw more monsters, traps, and plots. One of the things I love 'bout 3.5 is the shear amount of material, and I happen to think gestalt allows both DM's and players to use more of it.

To me Gestalt is making minmaxing too easy and accessible. For me RPGs were never about rolling the most dice and having the "strongest possible" character. That's why I severely dislike Gestalt, for me it caters to the wrong kind of player. No offense meant to anyone. If it's your cup of tea and you enjoy it that's fine.
If players would use Gestalt to give their characters actual depth my opinion might differ, but that's not my experience.
True, minmaxing is a problem that bugs me, and I must admit my ideal gestalt character's classes compliment each other in such a way that the overall stats are top tier or just below. But straight 3.5 doesn't eliminate minmaxing. I played with a guy in a standard 3.5 game, once, whose character was completely and utterly geared toward carrying things. That's it. He was a dwarf whose least impressive carrying feat was picking up a carriage with the party (and a couple of hundred pounds of gear) in it and proceeding to sprint the entire day, just so we wouldn't have to buy horses. The character was so utterly minmaxed it was ridiculous, and we all 'bout died laughing when he ended up on the astral plain. Point is, minmaxing will always be a problem, and I felt that gestalt was a way for those players who either didn't minmax, or were no good at it, could still keep up with those who did/were. That said, though, I do acknowledge that dedicated minmaxers would be even worse with the option of a second class. I'd still rather play a gestalt game and have access to a much more interesting character to help mitigate the burn from a minmaxer at the table.

Why not use a classless 35e system like Codex: The Persona or switch to Shadowrun.
...really? Sorry, but I'm asking what's your issue w/gestalt. Still, a response to you sir: never heard of Codex: the Persona, and while I wouldn't mind playing Shadowrun that setting's cyberpunk w/magic, not high fantasy. If I want that setting, I'll try for a Rifts Earth game. And if I want a classless game system, my one true love will always be BESM in that regard.

[Trenloe]

Gestalt game starting up here: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?33931-3-5-Gestalt-Game-Sundays-6-PM-EST

[MeKonopa]

Gestalt game starting up here: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?33931-3-5-Gestalt-Game-Sundays-6-PM-EST

Thanks for letting me know. In point of fact, I'm lucky enough to be the 'one definite player' mentioned.

[Nylanfs]

I had it wrong it's Eclipse: The Codex Persona (www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=51255&affiliate_id=200170), basically rips the whole class system apart into it's component system and lets you pay for the aspects you want when you want to get them.

[AncientArchaic]

Don't get me wrong, I greatly enjoy straight up D&D 3.5 and 5e. But I've been trying for years to get into a gestalt game and the general response I get is an 'ugh' of disgust. So, part of me is wondering just what people's problem is with 3.5 gestalt? I mean, it's part of the official rules and everything, and it just seems like a great way to play to me.

Overpowered perhaps? I suppose, but choosing two complementary classes just seems a great way to add balance and interest to a character.

Anyway, I'm just looking to see what everyone thinks about why 3.5 gestalt's such an unpopular game.

I loved playing as a gestalt but only ever had one DM that liked it. The game was notably higher powered than most for several reasons: You can easily switch between which classes you are blending as long as 1 of the two being gestated is the same so multi-classing as a gestalt is massively fluid, unlike traditional 3.5 where unless you have a favored class list its really a pain the further away from your second/third/fourth class level you are in your first class. With Gestalt you can effectively take each one until they are balanced out at the same level, rinse repeat every level. This gives you the best of your combined classes for higher bonuses from class stats, and allowed ridiculous things like barb/monks or barb/rogue being really easy to do. I built a Gestalt Vow of Poverty Cleric/Monk and he only ever took those two. Talk about overpowered enough most DMS cringe at the mention of the Book of Exalted Deeds. Someday when I'm more confident with FG I might run an FG Gestalt game. But for now I'm a recent Ultimate user, and modules that aren't free are about the full price of a Pathfinder book. Going to take a while though upgrading hopefully soon to the Full Ultimate license rather than the monthly.

[Mrsinzo]

Im Currently play an at home game with 4 others plus my wife, me and another experienced player have been allowed by the DM to play Gestalt characters, with a major flaw. Hence my Character cannot speak, nor can gain usage of telepathy or animals to speak, in order to keep me from being super useful in all situations, But i play a mix between a Dnd wiki homebrew class and a Warcraft Class.
Another Good reason to Gestalt especially if your using a mage type class, (wizard, Sorcerer, etc...) and maybe a ranger or more physical combat based class, you can have the awesomeness spells, use them up, and not be completely useless to the rest of your party at lvl 1 or 2.
I personally love it BECAUSE it allows me to have more options than your standard character, but not really "overpowered" ( mind you hes just about killed me 3 times now or so, with diehard feat, and im in a party of 5 >.>) With some variety in PC's, can make for a very interesting game.

[Jaekaido]

i am, by all means, interested in a gestalt game. i have always wanted to play one that didn't fall apart. i don't care what level we start at, i just want to play. i was a player on roll 20 but i have found that too many groups fall apart, or inter party quarrels start and they lose some of the fun.

[Mrsinzo]

i am, by all means, interested in a gestalt game. i have always wanted to play one that didn't fall apart. i don't care what level we start at, i just want to play. i was a player on roll 20 but i have found that too many groups fall apart, or inter party quarrels start and they lose some of the fun.

If i can find a game ill try and throw your name in.

[Jaekaido]

thank you very much

[Mrsinzo]

Yup, im searching through a ton of different forums trying to pull people together that can show up on a weekly basis. I have a Game on sunday im tryin to get into but from what i hear, the attendance is poor sadly. so i may be resigning from that game but ill let you know as soon as i hear anything, pm me your time zone and available times so i can try and work it in with mine and others

[Jaekaido]

i am in utc-7 mountain time in the US. i am available pretty much everyday except for saturday evenings. if i can find one game then i will be set.

[Jaekaido]

i hoe we find a game soon cos i have in mind a teleporting samurai/rogue damage is insane but the character only gets one attack with all of it. all of his other attacks are just regular attacks.

[Jaekaido]

screw it i am going to dm a high level gestalt game. i can not sit around anymore wishing for a dm to show up and run a game. it will take me some time to learn how to host a game on fg but any help will get the game going faster. i would really appreciate a show of hands of who all would be playing. i would also like your contact info so we can communicate as to what style we want to play. i do have some house rules which i will post for you guys. this will be homebrew setting but you can take from any source you have available as long as it is D&D 3.5 but no dungeon or dragon magazine. if you want to play a monster ecl is 20, and be as crazy as you want with your character. it might take me a week to get prepared for first session. first session is campaign style questions for both players and dm to ask of each other. second session will be actual character creation which could be started in first session. third session will be the first game session where the story will begin. hope we get enough players to make this worth the effort.

[Jaekaido]

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?34467-looking-for-5-players-for-a-level-20-gestalt-game-for-3-5-D-amp-D

this the the link for the game i am planning on running if you guys want to sign up for it