Fantasy Grounds for the Future

[Tarostar]

I've used FG I and II as a player and GM on many occasions. I've written rulesets and various mods using lua, some which I've shared with the community.

I love FG and always thought it was the best.

I've been away from online RPGs for a few years (RL) and now that I'm getting back into things I'm wondering where FG is with Unity. More importantly is there going to be support for audio and / or video in FG? Yes, I know you can always use 3rd parties, but truth be told most of the players in my games are not that tech savvy or interested in using multiple pieces of software (even online stuff). Having good audio support would make FG much more relevant for my needs, and integrated video windows (no matter the technology used behind the curtain) in FG would be awesome.

Not having to install FG as a client would also be a winner.

Thanks for reading and appreciate any updates on where FG is going.

[LordEntrails]

Welcome back :)

Unity still has no defined date, expectations are next year.

There is currently no audio or video support. It is probably high on the list for unity, but other than current functionality and backwards compatibility, no capabilities of the unity version have been announced. Dulux-oz has created a sound extension that allows the DM to play/trigger sounds. Check out the DOE Extensions thread in the CoreRPG forum.

I've never heard talk of FG going away from a client-server architect. But I guess its possible.

[gaara6666]

FG being a client based thing I think is better. Yes the issue of using your net to stream to other clients can be not ideal BUT....AND A BIG BUT being able to use it offline in perpetuity forever as a tool for irl games or to use it for decades to cone even if heaven forbid FG is Nm ot around anymore. This gives it the ability to stand on its own

[Seya]

Client based is way better. I can't think of anything that would help.

[damned]

There are lots of Unity threads and a quick search will bring them up. You will be better served I think by reading a few of these threads.

[ddavison]

It is being worked on exclusively by Carl and part time by John as he continues to work on other core ruleset updates that will be carried forward in Unity as well, so almost 2 full time devs working on it. There is lots of work still to be done -- it is a HUGE project. We hope to have some cool stuff to show for audio and video at a future date.

[Tarostar]

Thanks for the updates (and plugin mention), appreciated. I did some cursory unity searching without discovering much, but I'll do a bit more digging. Great to hear it is being worked on full time by 2 dev. The Unity port is very exciting.

I didn't mean for the client software to go away, but for there to be a way to connect to games in a browser window for those who can't or wont install it on their PC, or if they are using android, ios, linux, apple, etc. I know that Unity has a lot of support for deploying to multiple platforms, so hopefully this is something that might be possible. Even a reduced functionality optional browser client would be useful to get more people to try it out.

[Ken L]

Client based is way better. I can't think of anything that would help.

You can merge the two by having a client account that uses web resources for certain things. For instance you could integrate streaming sound by using API from say sound cloud that is triggered by the host, and streams to his/her client (requires some web api hook).

Regarding built-in video, I'm pretty sure that's going to require a dedicated server or a powerful host connection.

[Tarostar]

Regarding built-in video, I'm pretty sure that's going to require a dedicated server or a powerful host connection.

I'm thinking it might be possible to have one or more windows to hook in google hangouts, skype or some other vendor (ideally vendor agnostic, but that is asking a bit much). The point is to make this nicely integrated into the client for ease of use and so that you can run the client fullscreen and still see who you are talking with.

[pindercarl]

I posted a quick update on the blogs (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/entry.php?177-A-quick-update-on-the-Unity-port) (my first blog post! yay!) wherein I promise dynamic lighting/LOS and multiple map layer support in the Unity version. I hope it sheds a little light on the porting progress.

[Ken L]

I posted a quick update on the blogs (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/entry.php?177-A-quick-update-on-the-Unity-port) (my first blog post! yay!) wherein I promise dynamic lighting/LOS and multiple map layer support in the Unity version. I hope it sheds a little light on the porting progress.
https://i.imgur.com/5839hIQ.png

Best blog :)

[LordEntrails]

The above link returns an invalid blog specified error.

Thanks for the update Carl :) (once I can get to it!)

[pindercarl]

I don't understand how the internet works, but it should be working now.

[damned]

I posted a quick update on the blogs (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/entry.php?177-A-quick-update-on-the-Unity-port) (my first blog post! yay!) wherein I promise dynamic lighting/LOS and multiple map layer support in the Unity version. I hope it sheds a little light on the porting progress.

Welcome back to the forums Carl!
I think you just made a whole bunch of people smile.

[OTG_Wraith]

I posted a quick update on the blogs (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/entry.php?177-A-quick-update-on-the-Unity-port) (my first blog post! yay!) wherein I promise dynamic lighting/LOS and multiple map layer support in the Unity version. I hope it sheds a little light on the porting progress.

That's great to see! This has been my number one requested feature for Fantasy Grounds. Here's hoping we can get individual PoV along with the LoS feature!

[Nylanfs]

I don't understand how the internet works, but it should be working now.

Nobody understands how the internet works.

[dulux-oz]

Nobody understands how the internet works.

Speak for yourself :p

[Ken L]

Really cool dynamic lighting, as a GM the ability to 'show from player perspective' is a great aid to re-affirm who can see what given my experience with with VTTs. Amazing for a pre-alpha, looking forward to the kickstarter!

[JohnD]

Nobody understands how the internet works.

Al Gore better understand how the internet works.

[kalnaren]

I don't understand how the internet works

It's covered in Chapter 9 of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook.

[Nylanfs]

I bet there will be a entire supplement book in Starfinder for it.

[pindercarl]

I think I've learned how this internet thing works. https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/entry.php?184-Life-after-GenCon

[Galach]

Don't know if this is the right place or if this was asked before (I haven't found the info anywhere else), so I will be asking it here. I know that FG3 don’t have a launch date yet, but not just me, but a bunch of people around here are curious about some things concerning this update (some of them that are still evaluating the possibility of purchasing or not a FG License):

1. Today, we have the option to purchase a onetime payment, lifelong license or pay a subscription fee to use FG. Well, I know that the best way to go, in a business perspective, is to end SaaP model and stay only with the SaaS approach. There are any indications on how things will work on the future?

2. Correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I know, until now all software updates and upgrades are being free of charge, even between “major” updates (like in the transition of Fantasy Grounds 1 to Fantasy Grounds 2). Will FG3 keep this model? Or will we need to purchase a new license? If a new license is required, will previous owners have a discount?


3. For some time now, FG has a well-established price range, depending on what you get from it. Is there any indication of what will be the estimated price range of FG3?

Well, I know that those are hard questions to answer so early in the current point of the project, but there are people really asking me these things every two days, just because I had set up my damn “almost-a-blog”, with an “almost-a-fortnight-update” schedule and two pages on Facebook to discuss FG-related things.

Plus, of course, I am curious too… =)

[Zacchaeus]

1) I don't know what SaaP or SaaS means but if it means outright purchase and subscription I don't see that changing with Unity.
2) I believe that there will be an upgrade cost for Unity; but nothing is yet set in stone, and no there's no indication of cost
3) None at all.

[Galach]

1) I don't know what SaaP or SaaS but if it means outright purchase and subscription I don't see that changing with Unity.

Hi, Zacchaeus

SaaP = Software as a Product (the "traditional" licensing model);
SaaS = Software as a Service (the licensing model through subscription fees).



And thanks for the answer. =)

[Galach]

But I can see Smite Works changing and going through a completely SaaS approach in a near future, especially if they want to grow as a company: even giants like Microsoft are adopting this model because nowadays this is the only way to keep reliable and constant flux of cash.

FG have a nice and huge catalogue of products, but there is no way to predict what and when they will sell something, and thus – in a business perspective – is almost impossible to plan ahead; if you don’t know how big is your budget, you can’t know how you will spend it.

For example, if FG had only a SaaS licensing model in the last two years, it would be probably that FG3 was already launched, because that way SW could had a solid prediction of how many revenue they would generate in a certain period, how much they would be able to spend and on what, and so on.

Or, if they had a solid idea on how much revenue they would get, let’s say, in a year, they would be able to have a fixed budget for every ruleset, based on the ROI (Return of Investment) of each one, and almost precise launch calendars for everything, based on the muscle behind the development of each product.

(Just to make things clear: I do not know how things really work inside Smite Works; I am just guessing here, but this guess is based on the current model adopted by the corporate world on almost all markets).

Finally, do not get me wrong: I am not advocating the model, just saying that it is completely understandable. I bought an Ultimate Key in 2013, and until the start of 2016, I did not spent a single penny on FG products, because I had available everything I needed.

For me, that was great. No so great for Smite Works, though.

[damned]

I agree that SaaS makes the most sense to the publishers of most software most of the time (providing it is good software that people want to continue using!).
To date, in quite a few posts, SmiteWorks have been saying something along the lines of -

We havent ironed out all the details yet but we will have an upgrade fee to move from your current license to the new version. It may use a model where there is a minimum fee if you bought in the last year (say $5 and $15 for standard and ultimate respectively) and a little higher if you bought longer ago or it might start at $5 and $15 and you pay what you think it is worth to you on top of that. If you are a subscriber there is no cost, you get it as part of your subscription. Incremental upgrades would continue to be free. FG 3 (we are already on 3 for the last 3 years) will stop being developed but the alias server and update server will continue to work for 12 months. After that you will need to keep your own backups of that data and use a direct IP connection instead of alias.

Above are my words and my language. This is what I think will happen based on what I have read so far.

[Galach]

(we are already on 3 for the last 3 years)

LoL! I was thinking of FG Unity as FG3 - silly me! =P

I don't mind to pay for the upgrade - after all, Fantasy Grounds IS a great piece of software, and in my modest opinion, the best one in this slice of market. If it comes to that, I will not mind to pay for it monthly, if the fees are just - Smite works need to grow and take over the VTT World! Muwawawawawawawawawawa...

Anyway, even telling people that I am not a Fantasy Grounds representative, but just an enthusiast, they are still asking me instead of coming here in the Forums (I think that the language barrier weights a bit here), and I was curious too, since I started to heavily invest on the 5th ed. ruleset.

now I can at least give some advice, even based on non-official sources, tell to people that they should expect an upgrade fee, and so on.

Thanks everyone! =)

[ddavison]

Hello Galach, everything you listed about the benefits are definitely the case. Still, many of our users are very reluctant to add any new monthly fees. I personally dislike monthly fees as a consumer, so I can relate to customers who feel the same way. I have a few of these out of necessity, but generally I try to avoid them. For this reason, we are going to try very hard to take good care of all of our existing licensed customers who bought the 1-time license.

Damned posted my general thoughts on the upgrade fees.

[kylania]

SaaS is the devil and must be stopped. I want to buy a product and be done with it. Having to pay a subscription for everything on my computer is going to make me stop using a computer, but first I'm going to stop using subscription products. Sure your $5 or $10 sounds cheap in a vacuum, but when it's $10 for every damn piece of software.. no thanks.

Give me content with value as expansion packs or newer versions every once and awhile but don't ask me to pay for the privilege to use your product. Microtransactions and endless DLC are just as bad as SaaS, and honestly this whole buying at full price for FG what I've already bought for physical products because of the publisher is getting a little tedious too. Package PDF, FG and Physical products like some recent kickstarters and you have a deal. Make me repurchase what I've already bought, not so much.

[damned]

...Sure your $5 or $10 sounds cheap in a vacuum...

Ongoing support and development doesnt happen in a vacuum either... just saying... software is expensive and usually needs to be supported and that costs money. I think the majority of software packages that have an ongoing development will be SaaS sooner or later. That or they will charge a 20% annual maintenance fee. My comment has nothing to do with FG - it is a general comment on software and its costs and paying for it.


Give me content with value as expansion packs or newer versions every once and awhile but don't ask me to pay for the privilege to use your product. Microtransactions and endless DLC are just as bad as SaaS, and honestly this whole buying at full price for FG what I've already bought for physical products because of the publisher is getting a little tedious too. Package PDF, FG and Physical products like some recent kickstarters and you have a deal. Make me repurchase what I've already bought, not so much.

These are not decisions that can be solely made by FG. And there are not inconsequential costs to porting products to FG. At some point you might choose a single platform and stick with it. Ive mostly given up buying physical stuff (after collecting ridiculous amounts of it) and now only buy the physical stuff that I really really want. I now have a ridiculous amount of PDFs too but thats another story. If you do your gaming on FG consider just buy it on FG.

[Galach]

DISCLAIMER: this comment represents my opinions, and only my opinions.


SaaS is the devil and must be stopped. I want to buy a product and be done with it. Having to pay a subscription for everything on my computer is going to make me stop using a computer, but first I'm going to stop using subscription products. Sure your $5 or $10 sounds cheap in a vacuum, but when it's $10 for every damn piece of software.. no thanks.

Well, there is a whole world trying to find an alternative to keep customers happy and still generate enough flux of cash to keep things going. But how to do it is the one billion dollars question.



Give me content with value as expansion packs or newer versions every once and awhile but don't ask me to pay for the privilege to use your product.

Ultimately, every time you pay for a license key or for an update, you are “paying for the privilege of using a product”. The point is how you pay for it, how much you pay for it, and if the transaction is being worth for you. SaaS or SaaP, you are paying for a “privilege”. Otherwise, you need to end with a FOSS crap (do not get me wrong, many FOSS have potential, but with the lack of money behind them to hire the “muscle work” for development, they are just some functionalities full of bugs and with no support).



Microtransactions and endless DLC are just as bad as SaaS, and honestly this whole buying at full price for FG what I've already bought for physical products because of the publisher is getting a little tedious too. Package PDF, FG and Physical products like some recent kickstarters and you have a deal. Make me repurchase what I've already bought, not so much.

Funny is that I never saw anyone complaining about, let’s say, buying The Witcher 3 for PC, but not getting a copy for Xbox or Play Station. Theoretically, they are just the same thing, start to end, just different platforms. Same is true about OSTs, for example. The Original Music is part of the game – or movie – and still you need to get it separately if you want to hear it in your MP3 player or cellphone.

Putting the piracy issues aside, someone can even complain about a publisher selling a hard copy and not delivering a PDF file, because when a book is ready in InDesign, is just a matter of two clicks and bingo! PDF book is ready.

Now, things are very different when we are talking about porting content to Fantasy Grounds, for example. Even if you are using a parse tool to do the bulk of the work, and if it works flawlessly, you need to proof read and check everything to make sure that differences like double spaces in the original document do not crapped things out. You need to test the stat blocks, the automation and include all the maps and images and also set a bunch of paragraph styles manually. Finally, you need to create the pins and link everything, so IF parse tool works nice, you still have a ton of work.

Again, you have two options here: you can pay for something ready and double checked by a “FG pro”, or you can take you time and do it yourself – no micro transaction, no “double paying for something you already own”.

Finally, there is still the problem of licensing related to publishing IP from a 3rd party. If all content on FG store were created by FG, to sell a packet with everything you want would be a breeze. But when you put WotC on the equation, for example, things are very different – and I am still amazed that they had officially licensed their products to VTTs, because of their (justified) fear of piracy (D&D 3.5 and 4.0 suffered so much from it that WotC is simply not licensing translations anymore).

Regarding this, this is not just a matter of “convert and give” things. There are two companies involved, with completely different staffs, who need to generate revenue from a single product. So, yes, you will need to buy it twice, or be forced to choose a single platform and keep it.

[LordEntrails]

I have to agree with damned and Galach on this. It's not the same product, and it's really not even the same content. IMO, FG has MORE content than the hardcopy (links, automation etc) because a computer is a much more capable medium than paper.

As I've said before, I only buy my 5E stuff on FG. Even though a book is easier to read, I only read a book once, after that I need a reference source, and that's where FG shines.

[Myrdin Potter]

I am not fond of the SaaS model at all. None current version of FG is well older than the number of months that the subscription cost not being over the license cost would be.

They do make money on the DLC they sell (and they should). I certainly know the attraction of license revenue as they are always getting cash in the door and is a lot less lumpy.

I do wonder about community involvement, though. Lots of ultimate license holders over the years adding advice and help on the forums matter.

I think with the money being thrown at VR software companies who have no real engine behind them other than some graphics and unity, that Smiteworks could make a lot more money for their engine than just being a 2D VTT.

[Galach]

I am not fond of the SaaS model at all

Not a single customer in the world is, I think, not even me who was defending the model two posts ago. :p

But thing is, this is the only “good” business model for any software company who wishes to get a constant and reliable income on top of which they can make solid, predictable and achievable plans for near future.

This, or launch a new version every year, making everything new incompatible with previous versions and force customers to buy the new stuff – much like Microsoft and Adobe selling modes in the past.

But this model is even worse than SaaS and constitutes much more fuel and excuses for piracy than charging a monthly fee, and this was the main reason Microsoft and Adobe dropped it entirely.

Now, I am not saying a company cannot survive without this model – it can. But updates, new features will take much longer to be developed, because you cannot make a good plan based on your income.

Plus, delays in delivery of new stuff are much more common, because now and then, the managers will need to stop the work here and there because the income in a certain period was very low, or because the demand for other product increased a lot, and they need to change the workforce to accommodate this instead of hiring a new guy, because it is impossible to say if they will have the money to keep this new guy in a long term contract.

A “pay once, and buy only what you want from there” approach is very good for the ones purchasing the product/service, but it is a bit problematic to the company selling this product or service.

Again, I am not saying this is the case of Fantasy Grounds, just weaving my comments based on my small experience on the corporate market. This, and also saying that, IF it comes to it (i.e., FG become entirely SaaS), I will not stop supporting it, even the model being worse for me.

[damned]

There is even a potential for the SaaS model to be cheaper for users at times.
If all the DLC was SaaS you could have SKT for 3 months at $5 month and then cancel and move on to something else.
Anyway - I concur again with Galach - consumers are often not in favour of ongoing costs but it is often better for teh company - not so much as they charge/collect more but that they can actually budget income with some degree of accuracy.