Combat Tracker Effect Visibility Options for the 5E Ruleset

[Minty23185Fresh]

No Longer Compatible with Fantasy Grounds - don't use!


I am abandoning further development of this extension.

The amount of free time available to me to do recreational programming has become severely limited. I apologize but I must temporarily suspend enhancements and fixes to this extension for the immediate future.

This is the place to get the current version of the Combat Tracker Effect Visibility Options Extension (or EVOE).

Current version: v0.2.2 (released Dec 03, 2016).
Finished testing against Fantasy Grounds v3.2.1.
No new features since v0.2.0, but needed slight work to be compatible with FG v3.2.1.

Not only is visibility managed by the EVOE in the Combat Tracker but information provided to players via the Chat Window for things like an effect operating on an attack, damage, ability or saving throw are also managed.

The EVOE is easy to use. Install it. Select it. Choose visibilities for each effect in the Combat Tracker. EVOE does the rest.

Though easy to use, the information managed and reported in the Chat may be confusing and even seem contradictory. To help the GM or DM with that I am writing a series of blogs. The series index is located here (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/entry.php?187-Let’s-Use-the-Combat-Tracker-Effect-Visibility-Options-Extension).

Install the extension as you would any other (instructions (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/wiki/index.php/Data_Files_Overview#Extensions)).
Load a 5E campaign and choose the Effect Visibility Options (EVOE) extension.

Comments or complaints? Please direct them to me.

For the painstaking details of EVOE's development please see my series blog (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/entry.php?128-A-Neophyte-Tackles-the-FG-Extension-Allow-Me-to-Introduce-Myself) on how to develop an extension.

[Mavrik6666]

Minty - great extension, plan on using it tonight :)

Solved an issue I raised in another thread, so kudos

Only thing to be aware of , it seems that all effects added are GM visible only until you change them (thats what seems to happen ) - so may get players saying they have added something but cant see it - just to point that out

I let players have effects for all kinds of things, and they add and remove as they go, so maybe lots of add, add, add... because they cant see it, until a little education kicks in

But great extension

[Zacchaeus]

Will this work in 3.2 Minty?

[damned]

Will this work in 3.2 Minty?

Too early to tell as 3.2.0 is still a work in progress - I think there might be a little way before 3.2.0 hits the live channel...

[Zacchaeus]

Too early to tell as 3.2.0 is still a work in progress - I think there might be a little way before 3.2.0 hits the live channel...

Yeah, I guess so. I asked because this extension was born out of an old thread about making effects invisible before being placed onto the CT so that the DM could, for example, inflict a disease onto a PC without the PC being aware of the effect it was having on them. That particular 'bug' has been fixed in 3.2 and I wondered if that would then interfere with Minty's extension. Since 3.2 might be a while away I'll sticky this one.

Also damned it's time to change your sig :)

[Minty23185Fresh]

thing to be aware of , it seems that all effects added are GM visible only until you change them (thats what seems to happen ) - so may get players saying they have added something but cant see it

Thanks for the kudos, Mavrik.

It was purposely done this way because otherwise when the effects are applied they are announced in the chat, which would pretty much defeat the intent. Additionally, if they come up as something other than GM some alert players are going to notice the effect then notice that the GM changed its visibility.

(Edit: Applying an effect is announced in the inflictor's and the GM's chat, but not in other player's chats.)

True it puts more managerment responsibility on the GM, but isn't that what he/she is asking for by using the extension? Kind of Catch-22 :)

And yes, players do tend to multi-inflict. "Hey that Aura didn't show up. I'll try again." Pretty soon there's four Aura applied.

A pre game announcement helps. I use the example of intoxication. One might think the Kobald is fine for a round or two. After that its behavior is odd -> VSBL (to all).

Prone is another issue. Seems pretty obvious the guy is flat on his back!

In play test my players have been very receptive to its use. There's nothing like additional play testing though, especially outside the developer's group. Please let me know how it goes.

[Minty23185Fresh]

That particular 'bug' has been fixed in 3.2 ... Since 3.2 might be a while away I'll sticky this one.

Thanks for the sticky. I hope this extension lives up to that kudo!! :)

It's true, in the thread you mention, Moon Wizard says it is to be fixed in v3.2.0. I read the v3.2.0 list of fixes/enhancements and my intrepretation of the changes to 5E Effects was that the "Custom Effects" in the Effects Manager is being worked on. To me, it appears as though this is not a duplicate effort. However if it is, it was truely enjoyable both developing the extension and blogging about that process.

If the extension is not v3.2.0 compatible, I'll do everything I can to make it so, and post haste!

[Minty23185Fresh]

Last night our group play tested the Combat Tracker Effect Visibility Extension in the Princes of the Apocalypse setting. A great deal of the evening was spent in combat. Quite a few effects were in place at one time or another. Extended combat exposed a deficiency in the extension. Too much information is conveyed in the Chat.

An example scenario:
Krystryd drinks from a fountain.
(She becomes intoxicated. Effect applied, GM only - she doesn’t realize it, it’s subtle.)
The party happens upon an Orc and Krystryd immediately attacks.
Her attack is at disadvantage (2d20s rolled) because of intoxication.

The Chat reports:
Krystryd:
[ATTACK (M)] Battleaxe
[EFFECTS] [DIS]
Attack [11] -> [at Orc] [MISS]

Two issues: The “[EFFECTS] [DIS]” information and the “[11]” total roll value (it would expose any ATK pluses/minuses).

Having the extension intervene and eliminate these two bits of information from the Chat seems acceptable to me, in the case of an unrealized effect. The 2d20 roll is a different matter.

So if the extension were to be enhanced (I’m working on it) the following conversation might ensue:

Krystryd’s player asks…
Player: “Why was that roll at disadvantage?”
GM: “Krystryd isn’t really feeling quite like her usual self. A little confused, disoriented, clumsy.”
Player: “Is she sick or ill?”
GM: “No, I wouldn’t say that. She’s not ill.”
Player: (head scratching….) “Ah, crap! The fountain. Is she drunk?”
GM: “Yeah. That’s pretty accurate.”
(GM changes the intoxicated effect visibility to SELF or VSBL)

Comments? Criticisms?

[Zacchaeus]

Indeed, it would be awesome if all of the chat which gives the game away could be suppressed. This is getting very complicated though.

[Moon Wizard]

How would you hide advantage or disadvantage on a player roll when they don't know? Basically, any effect which modifies the dice is very difficult to physically hide, because the extra dice need to be rolled. To work around would make the rolling system even more complex, because every roll would have to pass back to host to be adjudicated and applied.

Dealing with hiding of numerical effect modifiers is a little easier, and something on the request list.

Regards,
JPG

[LordEntrails]

IMO, I don't think the die rolls should be hidden. I will agree it is a grey line, hiding die modifiers, but not adv/dis is a judgement call. But, I guess IMO when you attack someone, something a PC does regularly, they should know if something isn't working correctly.

I may not know I'm drunk, but when I try to do something I do all the time, and fall over or otherwise fail at it, I've got a good idea that I'm not doing things normally.

All that said, it's awesome that we GMs have more options to run the games the way we each feels or wants to run our games. Thanks for this, all of you developers :)

[Nickademus]

As long as you take that stupid "Automatic Miss" and "Automatic Hit" out, I'll be happy. I'm tired of the players finding out what bonus the roll has just because I rolled a 20 or 1.

[Minty23185Fresh]

There is no doubt this extension causes the game to ask more of the GM. The additional visibility options require more Combat Tracker management by the GM, there’ll be more questions by the players, and I’d argue more role playing by the GM might be required.

So, does this extension add “flavor” to the game? In my opinion, and obviously I’d think this, it does. I’ll take on the extra GM duties because the extension provides extra options for me to take advantage of when running my campaigns.

[Minty23185Fresh]

Just a quick note to let any followers of this thread know that I have not dropped the ball on this. As Zacchaeus point out:


Indeed, ....... This is getting very complicated though.

It has taken me quite a bit of time to decipher things and get some base coding in place.

Here's the setup, there are four chat windows pasted together in the following screenshot. All are labelled by character in red. Krystryd attacked the Orc. She has two effects, an ATK at +3, visible by her only (and the GM) and she's intoxicated but that's visible only to the GM.

14768

Note that no mention of the effects are made in Jimmy's nor the Paladin's chats. The +3 (Self) is shown in Krystryd's and the GM's chats. The fact that the roll was at disadvantage is shown only in the GM's chat.

For the disadvantage roll the two rolling dice are shown, I didn't hide them, consistent with what LordEntrails suggests:

IMO, I don't think the die rolls should be hidden. I will agree it is a grey line, hiding die modifiers, but not adv/dis is a judgement call.........

There are quite a few variations of effect that I need to support plus I just realized damage rolls also give away hidden effects... Aargh! But I am chipping away at it.

[Smoltok]

Hi,

Just one (silly?) question about this extension.

Is it possible to give the visible button the correct value while the effect triggers or the GM has to do it in the Combat Tracker ?

[Minty23185Fresh]

Is it possible to give the visible button the correct value while the effect triggers or the GM has to do it in the Combat Tracker ?

Certainly possible, I think, most anything is. :)

I've been contemplating changing some of the defaults for the conditionals, e.g. "Prone". With prone, it is nearly always obvious that the afflicted character is prone, except I guess if he/she is invisible too. So maybe a default of VSBL for prone is more appropriate. But I suspect this isn't what you're talking about.

Since I'm unsure as to what you have in mind exactly, would it be possible for you to provide an example, it might help?

[Smoltok]

Since I'm unsure as to what you have in mind exactly, would it be possible for you to provide an example, it might help?


When you create an effet, have you the possibility to put the visible button directly in the state you want (GM, SELF, ALL, ...)? If so, how could I do it ?

[Minty23185Fresh]

When you create an effect, have you the possibility to put the visible button directly in the state you want (GM, SELF, ALL, ...)? If so, how could I do it ?

The short answer is no. Not at this time. Provided I understand what you are asking, I find the concept intriguing.

Here is the long answer, to the question you're asking, as I understand it:

First, only the GM can control the Combat Tracker Effect Visibility. Allowing players to adjust visibility would defeat the entire premise behind the creation of this extension - that being, the ability for the GM to hide "the announcement" of an effect from players. The player character may still be afflicted with some effect, he/she just doesn't know it.

Now, as a GM:
(1) I inflict effects using the Effects Manager (one of the buttons in the upper right corner of the FG desktop) to apply, for example "Poisoned". I typically do this by just dragging the button/icon from the Effects Manager on to the PC in the Combat Tracker. In which case the Effect Visibility Button is right there.

(2) I also use the Effects Add button in the Combat Tracker, so again the Effects Visibility button is right there.

(3) Or I can apply an effect during combat, by dragging the effect from the NPC's Actions on to another character (for example the Giant Spider in the 5E Sample Campaign has the [EFF: Paralyzed] effect). But the Combat Tracker Effect Visibility button is still right there.

Is there another way that doesn't involve the Combat Tracker, that I have missed?

Back to the question... Possibly you are asking if there is some option available that would set the Effect Visibility button when say the [EFF: Paralyzed] effect is dropped on someone. Say something like [EFF: Paralyzed, CTEV_TRGT ], the additional qualifier specifies the initial button setting.

If I have properly gleaned the concept behind your question, again the answer is no. But I do like the idea and would certainly entertain the possibility of adding this functionality in the future. With the caveat of course that any such qualifiers attempted by players would probably be ignored.

[Minty23185Fresh]

The purpose of this post is to solicit input. Please respond with suggestions and criticisms!

When I first started this, I thought, a little change here, a little change there and, Done! Not so. This is incredibly complex to implement. Moon Wizard hinted at it - he should have hit me over the head, been a little less gentle ;) . Thanks though, I’m glad you didn’t. If Combat Tracker Effect Visibility (CTEV) optioning is really coming out in v3.2.0, I can’t wait to see it!!

Aside from the difficulty of implementation, I never fathomed the inconsistencies that have to be addressed. In particular, hiding dice throws. Earlier in this thread hiding Advantage/Disadvantage dice throws is discussed. Damage throws introduce another level of possible inconsistency.

Consider the following screenshot, Krystryd makes a damage throw with the listed Effects. (This is shown without the extension being used.)

14978

Ideally, the CTEV extension would not report the “[TYPE: acid, fire (1d6+2=7)]” and the “[TYPE: lightning, fire (1d8+1=7)]” damages to anyone but the GM.

To complicate it, let’s say the other two effects are of SELF. Then the extension should only show the “slashing” damage to most players, and the “slashing” plus the “cold, acid” and “piercing” damage to Krystryd. The GM of course see all of them.

However, five dice are rolled! Somebody is going to ask, “What the heck is going on? Why were five dice rolled?” Personally, I see no other way of dealing with this other than to hide dice. Okay, so I hide dice! Now, do I show, one die (the slashing) to most players, three dice to Krystryd and five dice to the GM. Yikes, this becomes ugly.

For me the assessed damage to the orc is a little less problematic since I use the “Status” setting instead of the “Detailed” setting for Non-Ally Health in the Options Manager. The players can’t view the damage just the health as it is actually applied. Which lends itself to yet another inconsistency. In this scenario with the CTEV extension most players would observe “[TYPE: slashing (1d8+3=9)]” = 9hp of reported damage. Krystryd would observe 9+9+5=23hp of reported damage. And the GM would see 37hp. Because 37hp are applied, the orc will die, yet most player only know of 9hp? Some players are going to remark, “Wow! That was a pretty weak orc!”

At this point in time, I am question the intelligence of my original premise, whether or not implementing this practice is really feasible.

[LordEntrails]

*lol* I'm laughing with you. You are laughing aren't you?

[Minty23185Fresh]

*lol* I'm laughing with you. You are laughing aren't you?

I am. It's mostly manicical though, and interrupted with all sorts of unmentionable gesticulations.

[Smoltok]

Back to the question... Possibly you are asking if there is some option available that would set the Effect Visibility button when say the [EFF: Paralyzed] effect is dropped on someone. Say something like [EFF: Paralyzed, CTEV_TRGT ], the additional qualifier specifies the initial button setting.

That's the concept I talked about.

[Slalom]

Great work man, i was looking for something like that!!!

[Minty23185Fresh]

Thanks Slalom.

I believe I have the attack roll (ATK effect) reporting and the corresponding defense response (AC effect) handled in the chat box. I am just about done with the damage roll (DMG and DMGTYPE effects) reporting in the chat. I hope to have the corresponding defense response (IMMUNE and RESIST) done in the next few weeks, at which time I'll publish an update.

[jshauber]

Not sure where I have been that I missed this, but I am going to grab it and try it out.

I like the fact I can limit the amount of info the party knows so they can't plan out a combat choreography. I like that they have to learn and grow as a group to know what each of them can/will do in certain situations.

[Minty23185Fresh]

Announcing v0.1.0 of the Combat Tracker Effect Visibility Extension (EVOE).
See post #1 of this thread for details. The downloadable is also there.

This version manages the information that is reported to players via the Chat Window for most of the attack (ATK:) effects as well as their associated defense (AC:) effects. It also manages information reported in the Chat for damage roll (DMG: DMGTYPE:) effects and their associated defense (RESIST: IMMUNE:) effects.

I apologize for the delay, it took quite a bit of code to get this far. EVOE exploded from about 200 lines of code (v0.0.1) to nearly 3,000 (v0.1.0).

I hope you enjoy it.

I highly recommend you take a look at the new blog series I have started which details understanding what you see in the player Chat Windows when using EVOE. Providing the option to the GM to manage effect visibility introduces pitfalls and inconsistencies. I've tried to give examples of those issues and suggestions for mitigating them.

EVOE is a work in progress. I have more to do and would very much appreciate any comments, suggestions and/or criticisms pertinent to EVOE.

Thank you.

[LordEntrails]

Nice work Minty

[Smoltok]

HI Minty !

Just to tell you that in my FG it seems to be bugged when I use your extension.

When your extension is active, the players don't see any dice roll in the chat (even theirs). Strange behavior.

All came back to normal when I desactivate EVEO extension.

[Minty23185Fresh]

When your extension is active, the players don't see any dice roll in the chat (even theirs).

Thanks for giving EVOE a try. I just tried a quick connection with a player of mine and we didn't observe the behavior you mention. I'll do my best to help. Let's take this off line to PM (Private Messaging) so we don't clutter this thread with troubleshooting questions and answers. Please check your profile inbox.

[EDIT: I couldn't attach an image to a PM. I must pollute this thread with troubleshooting questions. Sorry thread subscribers.]

[Minty23185Fresh]

When your extension is active, the players don't see any dice roll in the chat (even theirs).

Attached is a image file of a client (player) attacking an Orc.

A few questions.
1) Are you using ANY other extensions at the same time? If so what are they?
2) Is the EVOE version v0.1.0 showing up in your player's Chats at startup (labelled A in red in the screenshot image)?
3) Do the actual dice images show up (labelled B in the screenshot)?
4) Do the dice results show up (labelled C)?
5) Do both the attack and the attack result descriptions show up (labelled D)?

15334

[EDIT: Added the following and copied this to the my blog Help Me article (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/entry.php?188-Let’s-Use-the-Combat-Tracker-Effect-Visibility-Options-Extension).]

Please answer all the questions from both perspectives, the player and the GM:

When the player rolls, can the player see the roll, dice and results?
When the player rolls, can the GM see the player's roll, dice and results?

When the GM rolls, can he see his own roll, dice and results?
When the GM rolls, can the player see the GM's roll, dice and results?

[Minty23185Fresh]

Announcing v0.1.1 of the Combat Tracker Effect Visibility Extension (EVOE).
See post #1 of this thread for details. The downloadable is also there.

This version fixes a bug I found while blogging about the IMMUNE, RESIST, and VULN damage roll counteractive effects.

I highly encourage anyone considering using EVOE take a look at the blog (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/entry.php?187-Let’s-Use-the-Combat-Tracker-Effect-Visibility-Options-Extension)series I have started which details understanding what you see in the player Chat Windows when using EVOE. Providing the option to the GM to manage effect visibility introduces pitfalls and inconsistencies. I've tried to give examples of those issues and suggestions for mitigating them.

[Minty23185Fresh]

Announcing v0.2.0 of the Combat Tracker Effect Visibility Extension (EVOE).
See post #1 of this thread for details. The downloadable is also there.

This version gives the DM the ability to define "default visibilities". Until now when an effect was added to the Combat Tracker its visibility was set to GM only. Now using the Effects Manager Utility the GM can define a default visibility: the visibility that the effect will initially have when added to the Combat Tracker. For example, the GM, using the Utility could set up a default visibility of VSBL (visible to everyone) for the Prone Condition. Then any time the Prone Effect is applied to a character, its visibility in the Combat Tracker will come up as visible to everyone (VSBL). The DM can always change it afterward in the Combat Tracker if desired.

More information about this new option, plus much, much more can be found in my blog series about the EVOE. An index of topics, supported effects and version information can be found here (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/entry.php?187-Let%92s-Use-the-Combat-Tracker-Effect-Visibility-Options-Extension).

[Minty23185Fresh]

I have worked through all the examples mentioned in my blog series, each of them producing the same results with FG v3.2.0 as they did with FG v3.1.7.

Next I will be doing some file comparisons to ensure EVOE picks up any new FG enhancements and functionality in the latest FG version as suggested by Trenloe (Thanks). Done (Nov 04, 2016).

I have not yet play tested. I should get a chance to do so this weekend.

If anyone has problems please let me know.

[Minty23185Fresh]

I have just posted v0.2.2 which is compatible with FG version 3.2.1.

"Diff testing" as suggested by Trenloe yielded a few necessary edits to the EVOE code. The new version was then verified to reproduce the same results for all examples in my blog posts as version 0.2.1.

I'll play test it in the near future. But v0.2.2 should be considered good to go.

Please let me know if you have difficulties.

[MarianDz]

Hi Minty23185Fresh,
I found one error which came up for me when this new ver.0.2.2 used in 5E.
No other extensions loaded only this EVOE.

See my attached printscreen.16896

1.) When I made Damage roll (DMG:1d8+1 slashing) by Hobgoblin without targeting hero (Odgulin).
2.) And then drag and drop result onto hero (CT or direct MAP) applying damage, then it opens Console with Script Error 983!

But when I do same action on previouslz targeted Hero or creature. Then it not open console with this error.
I think something wrong is in this EVOE version 0.2.2 with un-targeted damage rolls.

[Minty23185Fresh]

Thanks Marian. I'll see what I can find and get it fixed.

[EDIT: to report follow up info]

This is an interesting scenario... At first I couldn't figure out why one would do this: (1) roll damage without a target, then (2) apply the damage result from the chat to a target. It dawned on me that it is a brilliant solution to the "I forgot to target someone before I rolled" scenario. Rather than a reroll, the player or GM just drags the result onto the intended target. I didn't know one could do this. So, given my ignorance, I would never have tripped over this bug on my own. Thanks Marian.

And thanks for the concise information you provided to help me repeat the steps to trigger the defect. I have repeated the steps and observed the problem. It appears to be specific to damage rolls, attack rolls don't seem to have the issue and it appears to be exhibited only during the given scenario: dragging a damage roll from the chat onto a target.

I'm working on it, and hope to post a new version soon.

[Dracius]

This extension seems to be causing resistance rolls to round up instead of down.

13 resisted should be 6dmg, not 7dmg

[Minty23185Fresh]

This extension seems to be causing resistance rolls to round up instead of down. 13 resisted should be 6dmg, not 7dmg

Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I had observed this during development but had thought that I'd observed the same behavior with or without the extension. I tried to verify that just now, and was unable to do so. Without the extension the damages consistently round down. With the extension I've seen them round either direction.

The amount of free time I have available to me to do recreational programming has become severely restricted as of late. It is doubtful that any fixes or enhancements to this extension will be forthcoming in the immediate future.

[edem]

Hi Minty,

This extension would be awesome, but unfortunately the default visibility section (at the bottom of an effect's window for a character sheet action) "clashes" with the Effect Targeting Enhancement extension - there's no error, simply the section does not appear. I know you effectively have no time working on it, but if you happen to find some time, would you be able to look into that?

(The referred extension is this: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?24573-Effect-Targeting-Enhancement-(Extension) )

[Trenloe]

?.. "clashes" with the Effect Targeting Enhancement extension...

(The referred extension is this: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?24573-Effect-Targeting-Enhancement-(Extension) )
Welcome to the forums edem

The effects targeting extension is no longer compatible with the current version of FG and shouldn't be used. See post #1 in the thread you link.

[edem]

I have read that, but after testing it for a while, it's working perfectly for me actually... and it's so useful, I'd rather keep using it.

[Trenloe]

I have read that, but after testing it for a while, it's working perfectly for me actually... and it's so useful, I'd rather keep using it.
It might appear to work correctly, but it is not using the most up-to-date FG code and so there could be a bunch of new functionality/bug fixes that have been fixed in the latest FG code that you're not seeing. For example, here is one such issue: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?24573-Effect-Targeting-Enhancement-(Extension)&p=315881&viewfull=1#post315881

If you think the extension is really interesting then continue to use it. But if you have any errors, weird behaviour, etc. please remember that you are using an extension that is incompatible and could cause this and do testing without it before reporting any issues.

This also makes it virtually impossible for the combat tracker effect visibility extension to be made compatible with the effect targeting extension as they are now running on different code bases.

Your best bet is to find a developer (not me) to fix the compatibility of the effect targeting extension. Or maybe look into fixing it yourself? :)

[Minty23185Fresh]

I have abandoned further development of this extension.

[damned]

Hey Minty23185Fresh - I bet it was a challenging extension to write and to maintain!
There are probably many much easier projects to try in the future :)

[edem]

Hey, no worries. I would like to try myself at it, but I'm not sure what language you used, and to be honest, my initial searches didn't get me reliable resources on how to write / maintain an extension so far (but probably just my google fu was weak).

Thanks for the effort you've put in it though! :)

[Trenloe]

Hey, no worries. I would like to try myself at it, but I'm not sure what language you used, and to be honest, my initial searches didn't get me reliable resources on how to write / maintain an extension so far (but probably just my google fu was weak
Info on modifying FG code here: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?19033-Modifying-the-3-5e-PFRPG-ruleset. That is written for 3.5e but equally applies to 5e, just change any references to 3.5E to 5E.

Info on extensions: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/modguide/extensions.xcp