CORE Rules Question: Bardarian

[bigboom]

Hi Guys,

I've got a rules question for a character I'm building to take part in the ongoing CORE PFS campaign being organized by Blackfoot and cmdisc, so I'd like to get your opinion on this question (although I'm happy to hear what other GMs have to say as well). I've done some reading around and I haven't been able to find consensus...simply that different GMs may rule differently. Depending on what you guys think, I may change my character build accordingly.


The Question
With a bard that has a splash level of barbarian (for example, barbarian 1/bard 4), can the character start up a bardic performance one round (most importantly, inspire courage) then in the next and future rounds, go into a rage while continuing to maintain the bardic performance?


Relevant Texts
Bardic Performance (CRB, pg 35): "A bard is trained to use the Perform skill to create magical effects on those around him, including himself if desired."

"Starting a bardic performance is a standard action, but it can be maintained each round as a free action. Changing a bardic performance from one effect to another requires the bard to stop the previous performance and start a new one as a standard action. A bardic performance cannot be disrupted, but it ends immediately if the bard is killed, paralyzed, stunned, knocked unconscious, or otherwise prevented from taking a free action to maintain it each round."

bigboom's note: Some bardic performances require a performance skill check but others do not. For example, countersong (Su) and distraction (Su) do, but inspire courage (Su) does not.


Rage (Ex) (CRB, pg 32): "A barbarian can call upon inner reserves of strength and ferocity, granting her additional combat prowess."

"While in rage, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration."


Supernatural Abilities (Su) (CRB, pg 186): Using a supernatural ability is usually a standard action (unless defined otherwise by the ability’s description). Its use cannot be disrupted, does not require concentration, and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.


Spell-Like Abilities (Sp) (CRB, pg 186): Using a spell-like ability works like casting a spell in that it requires concentration and provokes attacks of opportunity.


Perform Skill (CRB, pg 102, 103): "Special: A bard must have ranks in specific Perform categories to use some of his Bardic Performance abilities. Consult the Bardic Performance section of the bard class description in Chapter 3 for more details."


Comments from James Jacobs, Paizo Creative Director, located here (https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=330?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Questions-Here#16460):
"My opinion is that that particular line you cite is a holdover from the 3.5 version of the game that should be rewritten or just cut from the game—it's slipped by the errata so far because it's flavor text, not actual rules text, so the rules mongering seems to have missed it.

(bigboom's note: this is in reference to the first line of the 'bardic performance' description that states: "A bard is trained to use the Perform skill to create magical effects on those around him, including himself if desired.")

THAT SAID... there are a few abilities that DO require and benefit from having ranks in Perform. That use of the word "some" is very important.

Inspire courage does not require any ranks in perform at all.

Countersong and Distraction, on the other hand, do.

That's why we used the word "some" in that statement."


Conclusion
So here's what I think based upon all the text written above...

It seems to me that yes, it is possible to start up a bardic performance and maintain it while raging but only for those bardic performances that do not require a performance skill: fascinate, inspire courage, inspire courage, inspire competence, dirge of doom, inspire greatness, soothing performance, inspire heroics, and deadly performance.

Other bardic performances that require the use of a Charisma-based performance skill or are spell-like abilities cannot be started up and maintained while raging: countersong, distraction, suggestion (Sp), frightening tune (Sp), Mass Suggestion (Sp).

So what do you guys think? At the end of the day, there seems to be valid arguments either way, so I don't think there's a right or wrong answer and I'm not looking to start up a debate. Just looking to see how our GMs would rule on this situation before I dive in.

Thanks for reading through this crazy long post!!!


Updated Summary (3 May 2016)
So based on the feedback, the argument for allowing bardic performance while raging is:

Abilities that require charisma-based skills, concentration, or patience cannot be used while raging.
Bardic performances that are marked as supernatural abilities do not require concentration but those marked as spell-like abilities do require concentration.
Only some bardic performances require a charisma-based perform skill. Others are not dependent upon the use of charisma-based skills.
Patience is not a game mechanic and so is subject to interpretation on a case-by-case basis.
So if bardic performance is allowed while raging, it is limited to these: inspire courage, inspire courage, inspire competence, dirge of doom, inspire greatness, soothing performance, inspire heroics, and deadly performance


The argument against bardic performance while raging is:

Executing a bardic performance will logically require a person to concentrate and focus on that performance
Rage is mechanically intended to boost up and focus a character on damage dealing with the downside of precluding the character from doing pretty much anything else. To maintain a bardic performance would conflict with the intended mechanic.
If barbarians were intended to have the ability to do anything else while raging, then abilities such as "Moment of Clarity" or other non-core classes/archetypes that allow barbarian-like classes to do other things while raging.


Ultimately, because there is no definitive answer, it is up to the GM running the table to make a ruling. But all agree it would be best to let the GM know ahead of time so that a decision can be made beforehand to avoid using in-game time to make a ruling.

[cmdisc]

I'd have to look into it further, but my knee-jerk reaction is that with Inspire Courage, you're not making any Charisma check nor using a skill. And I think a raging Bard-arian is basically what we get when we think of any Death Metal or Screamo artists. :p

[Malkavian_Andi]

It seems to me that yes, it is possible to start up a bardic performance and maintain it while raging but only for those bardic performances that do not require a performance skill: fascinate, inspire courage, inspire courage, inspire competence, dirge of doom, inspire greatness, soothing performance, inspire heroics, and deadly performance.
I wouldn't go for Fascinate: "The distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents this ability from working." I would definitely treat a raging barbarian as "other danger".

Other than that, I agree.

[HoloGnome]

Free action or not, and whether or not Inspire Courage requires ranks in Perform skill, bardic performance logically requires concentration. So, sorry, I do not agree that a Barbarian/Bard can use Inspire Courage while raging, except in the case of using something like Moment of Clarity (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/moment-of-clarity-ex) (but doing that would have limited effectiveness). You could, for example, "drop out of rage" with Moment of Clarity for 1 round to give allies a bonus on a critical synchronized attack -- might be worth it in limited circumstances...and only works for 1 round.

If you can explain how you can maintain your performance without concentrating on what you're doing (saying, singing, dancing), then I might tend to agree. Otherwise, you're probably singing gibberish or flopping around like a fish on land. The fact that there is only 1 rage power (Moment of Clarity) that allows you to step out of rage for 1 round to do something without suffering dropping out of rage penalties should be a clue that Barbarians are not intended to be able to do other things while raging.

If you want to go non-core, then there are are other ways that you could achieve your goal, including, perhaps, dove-tailing rage with Lingering Performance (APG). I might also allow a 4th level Bloodrager to do it (but not cast bard spells, which is specifically excluded). If a character is able to concentrate on spellcasting while raging, then the implication is that he can use verbal and somatic abilities while in rage, which also opens the door to performance. You could also use rage powers like Battle Roar (ACG) or Terrifying Howl (this one is CORE) if you want to "sing" like a Barbarian.

Bottom line: There are special classes like Bloodrager that allow you to do other things while raging, so unless you're one of those classes, as a Barbarian, you're pretty much just raging, unless you have a feat or rage ability that lets you do otherwise. As a Barbarian, you get huge benefits while raging at the penalty of not being able to concentrate on other tasks and, in this case, trying to use both Bard and Barbarian doesn't really work.

However, if you proceed, you should probably expect table variation.

[cmdisc]

There have been discussions on the Paizo Rules forum about this issue. In looking deeper, this is my take on it:

Inspire Courage does not require any skill checks to use. So it doesn't violate the limitation of "no charisma-based checks other than..." put on you by Raging. Nor does it state anywhere that it requires concentration. So you're not breaking Rage there either.

Rage DOES mention not being able to do anything that requires Patience, but "Patience" is not a game-defined term. So it's really up to the GM what that means. Some would argue that trying to scale a cliff would require patience. But according to Pathfinder, you are free to climb while Raging. So patience isn't really much of anything on its own.

Plus remember that Inspire Courage can be audible or visual. So I'd say it really depends on HOW you are inspiring your allies, to know whether it's possible while raging.

No you cannot Rage while trying to recite poetry in order to tap into that special bravery hidden deep within all men's hearts to inspire them onward into those great moments of glory shared by all heroes of legend.

But you can certainly flail about and curse and insult your enemies while whipping your allies up into a frenzy. That counts as Inspire Courage. And I'd say you can easily do that while Raging.

Just think of any riots that you've seen. The leaders flailing about and cursing and frothing as they stir up the crowd to the point where they are smashing windows and burning cars. That is a real life example of Inspiring Courage while Raging.

[HoloGnome]

To me, if that were the case, then every raging barbarian leading the charge would automatically Inspire Courage. I will grant that a raging barbarian running into the fray is pretty inspiring, but you are not Inspiring Courage using a dedicated bardic special ability, which would seem to require organized thought and some form of concentration (stated or not) instead of animalistic rage to say or do something inspiring (above and beyond the norm), whether or not it requires a dedicated skill check.

Additionally, besides Bloodrager, there is also obviously the Skald class (+ archetypes), which has the Raging Song ability, etc., that combines these things as a class ability with audible components only.

So, I would put forward that if you want the benefit of a class that offers a special ability, you can be that class (or take a feat or rage power, etc.). Otherwise, no, and not in CORE where those classes don't exist. It's basically doing an end-run around what seem to be very clear rage restrictions.

You can have either clarity of thought to inspire others with bardic abilities or you can sacrifice that clarity (which includes even the most basic use of bardic abilities) for furiously fatiguing rage as a barbarian that provides incredible buffs to your combat abilities. If you want an extra +1 to hit and damage, enchant your weapon.

I won't assert that the debate isn't a valid one, but it takes 2 seconds for Paizo to write: Barbarians may use Inspire Courage while raging or Barbarians may not use Inspire Courage while raging in the CORE FAQ. Given the reasoning above, the length of time this debate has existed (over a decade, or at least 8-9 since Pathfinder came into being) without a simple addition to the FAQ from Paizo, and the much more exotic questions they have answered, I will not allow it at my table. If Paizo FAQs it in the affirmative, then great!

Until then, this one is clearly in the gray area, so rule as you see fit.

[Blackfoot]

Seems like a situation where you can 'expect table variation' .. so I'd avoid it. Lingering Performance would probably be your best ticket here.

Oh right.. but that's not CORE.

[cmdisc]

To me, if that were the case, then every raging barbarian leading the charge would automatically Inspire Courage.

Well we know that barbarians do not have the special ability to create a supernatural Inspire Courage effect as a games mechanic. So that wouldn't really work.


I will grant that a raging barbarian running into the fray is pretty inspiring, but you are not Inspiring Courage using a dedicated bardic special ability, which would seem to require organized thought and some form of concentration (stated or not) instead of animalistic rage to say or do something inspiring (above and beyond the norm), whether or not it requires a dedicated skill check.

Regardless of what "would seem" to be, we are going off of the stated rules as they are defined. No skill check is being made. No Concentration is required. And "patience" is not a game-defined term.


Additionally, besides Bloodrager, there is also obviously the Skald class (+ archetypes), which has the Raging Song ability, etc., that combines these things as a class ability with audible components only.

A skald's song does not Inspire Courage. It Inspires Rage....which is a different ability and game effect. They cannot be compared.


It's basically doing an end-run around what seem to be very clear rage restrictions.

This is where I have to ask, what specific rule as spelled out in Rage is being violated or gotten around? For example, if a spell is Mind-Effecting, it is listed as such. And if it isn't listed as such, then it isn't Mind-effecting...even if we feel it should be. The Daze spell is mind-effecting. The Daze variant channel ability is not. Undead cannot be dazed by the spell, but they CAN be dazed by the channel because the rider effect is not mind-effecting.

Pathfinder rules can be very specific in what they are and what they allow. There is nothing in the Inspire Courage rules that I see that violates the restrictions set forth for Rage.

We are not using any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills.
We are not using an ability that says it requires concentration.
We are not using an ability that says it requires patience.

Inspire Courage's description does not say that it requires any skill check, concentration, or patience. So if I were to say it does, that would be inserting a House Rule as far as I can tell.


...it takes 2 seconds for Paizo to write: Barbarians may use Inspire Courage while raging or Barbarians may not use Inspire Courage while raging in the CORE FAQ. Given the reasoning above, the length of time this debate has existed (over a decade, or at least 8-9 since Pathfinder came into being) without a simple addition to the FAQ from Paizo, and the much more exotic questions they have answered, I will not allow it at my table. If Paizo FAQs it in the affirmative, then great!

I agree it would. Paizo has been known to not tackle several issues that would seem simple to fix. I don't know their motivation, or lack of, for that. <shrug>

[cmdisc]

That said, Bigboom, if you want to build the character concept, I say go for it. Just check with the GM ahead of time and if they are set against it, bring something else to the table. :)

[HoloGnome]

I see it as rules parsing to min-max something that breaks very clear rage mechanics that are intended to prevent exactly what you are trying to allow. Barbarians don't easily have the presence or clarity of mind to do anything other than rage and smash, which also should not include things like bardic performance just because there happens to be a narrow min-max wording gap.

If barbarians did have clarity of mind to do something else, there wouldn't be a rage powers like Moment of Clarity that give them the necessary presence of mind (and temporarily suspend rage benefits), not to mention the classes/archetypes that allow barbarian-ilk characters to do other things, including spellcasting and bardic performance. For example, the point of Skald is that it is a similar ability that specifically combines rage with bardic performance, not that it specifically uses inspire courage.

Otherwise, if you want to look at the Bard, bardic performance is inherently a charisma-based ability that can be used for 4+CHA mod rounds per day. Also, conditions that inhibit skill checks, typically also inhibit ability checks -- like shaken, for example. So, should rage just block named skill checks or should that block logically also include charisma-based abilities? If a raging barbarian doesn't have presence of mind to use basic diplomacy, then why should he be able to use his charisma to inspire courage which also attempts to influence the attitudes of allies for the benefit of combat? I suppose I see inspire courage as akin to diplomacy, informally, not that that means anything.

Speaking of shaken, if you want to do something that is clearly within the rules to confer a party benefit, then create a barbarian that has Intimidate skill and related powers and can give enemies the shaken condition so that they get a –2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.

>We are not using an ability that says it requires concentration.

No - it doesn't specifically say it requires concentration, but I don't see a way for a barbarian to be able to do that without having the presence of mind to be able to concentrate on something other than his own blinding rage and direct combat actions, and particularly in the case of an ability that is obviously charisma-based (which seems like it leans towards exclusion).

The barbarian is already powerful enough, is intended not to be able to do other things while raging, except maybe intimidate (which makes a lot of sense), and min-maxing that tries to use bardic performance on top of that is attempting to heap another +1/+1 on to the pile. The only thing in its favor is that it is limited to 4+CHA times per day, but that breaks down very rapidly in the face of feats like Extra Performance (+6 times/day).

Again, the debate is a reasonable one, but I cannot allow this combo at my tables unless there is a Paizo FAQ or other formal ruling.

But, hang on...one more perspective...playing devil's advocate against my own argument for a moment, I have to wonder, in terms of action economy, if a Barbarian forgoes their first standard action to initiate bardic performance, potentially also sacrificing hasted or iterative attacks, has great BAB and attack bonuses with rage + power attack and 2-handing that likely hit in most cases and deals massive damage (plus crit possibility), is the +1/+1 worth it for battles that last less than 10 rounds...and usually less than 5? It would seem to be doing the party more harm than good.

Raging Barbarian/4 with base 20 STR, +1 Greatsword and Power Attack:

To Hit: 4 BAB+7 STR+1 Sword-2 PA = +10 to hit
Damage: +7 STR +1 Sword +4 PA +6 two-handing = +18 damage
Minimum Damage (2d6): 20

So, activating performance in the best case might cost a minimum of 20 points of damage from a well-built Barbarian on a successful attack. In the worst case on a max damage crit, the damage would be 60. Then, there's haste. Either way, the party might be hard-pressed to recover the lost damage and action economy from a barbarian activating inspire courage. Another better use of a standard would be for the barbarian to drink a potion of Enlarge Person.

In the end, whether or not it's allowed, I guess inspire courage is a poor build option for a Barbarian, depending on when he activates it.

[cmdisc]

In the end it comes down to what the rules say or don't say. As this is PFS, it doesn't matter what we think something "should" or "shouldn't" be. We can only go with what it is.

When Raging:
You cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride).
You cannot use any ability requiring patience or concentration.

Where in the rules does it say Inspire Courage requires a skill check?
Where in the rules does it say Inspire Courage requires patience?
Where in the rules does it say Inspire Courage requires concentration?

Remember, if a spell or effect or ability has/requires a certain thing, then that thing is mentioned. If it's not mentioned, then it doesn't have/require it.

For example, the Dazed condition is not listed as mind-effecting. The spell "Daze" IS said to be mind-effecting. So creatures like Undead and Oozes are immune to it. However, the Rulership Variant Channeling ability is not listed as mind-effecting. So the Dazed condition it puts onto targets can affect anything....including Undead and Oozes.

Inspire Courage does not contain anything in its legal description that violates the limits of Rage. So the two can be blended by RAW.

Does this make sense to everyone? No. But then I don't think a 40 pound gnome being able to grapple and pin a 60,000 pound dragon makes sense either. But the rules of Grappling do not give a size limit. So the gnome is certainly able to do that if he can roll high enough.

Maybe I've missed something somewhere. I don't know. But until anything new is presented, I can only go off of what is written. And according to the CRB, Inspire Courage isn't requiring anything that would violate Raging.

[bigboom]

Thanks everyone for all the feedback!!



I wouldn't go for Fascinate: "The distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents this ability from working." I would definitely treat a raging barbarian as "other danger".

Other than that, I agree.

Oh yes, after I re-read fascinate, I see that you're absolutely right! I'll stick an update in my original post.



Seems like a situation where you can 'expect table variation' .. so I'd avoid it. Lingering Performance would probably be your best ticket here.

Oh right.. but that's not CORE.

Yup, if lingering performance were available in CORE, I'd work that into the build and this would be a non-issue.


cmdisc and Holognome, thank you both very much for putting so much thought into your responses! This will be one of those gray areas where different GMs will make different decisions and so the final ruling will be up to the GM running the table, which is totally fine.


Originally, I was going to give my bard either a 1 level splash of barbarian or 1 level splash of fighter, depending on the prevailing sentiment of bardic performance while raging. However, the more I think about it, the more I enjoy the character concept of a barbaric halfling bard...picturing it in my mind's eye makes me laugh, regardless of whether he can execute bardic performances while raging at any given table.

And mechanically, his primary role will be "bard stuff," not damage dealing so he won't be min/maxing bard buffs and rage buffs in some annoyingly controversial way. So if a GM rules that he can't maintain a performance while raging, that's fine since his primary contribution will come in other forms.

The take-away is (as all of you have said) the ruling will vary from table-to-table and it'll be best to let a GM know ahead of time so that he/she can make a decision beforehand to avoid using up time during a game to make a ruling.

Thanks again everyone for your thoughts! I'll soon have a bad-azz barbaric halfling bad-boy of bardendom coming to inspire you soon!!!
(And perhaps he'll even rage a little every now and then!!)

[HoloGnome]

It does matter, it's firmly in the gray, and the intent when barbarians rage is that they are very restricted as to what else they can do. In this case, because of what looks like a couple of missing RAW words, perhaps lost in translation, and the context of RAI, the gap can be used to min-max around typical restrictions (albeit with a poor DPS outcome in instances when the bardbarian can't start the song in advance)...so maybe more min than max.

All bardic performances are Charisma-based abilities and there are specific classes and rage powers that combine rage with other things, as mentioned, so RAW gap or not, trying to end-run around rage restrictions because of RAW vs. RAI sets up and perpetuates the debate.

Bardic performance would seem to require a presence of mind which is not accessible during rage, RAW or not. If you want to intimidate the target, great. If you want to be able to think clearly enough while raging to be able to inspire all allies around you with a cogent bardic performance, that is more uncertain to me as RAW vs. RAI.

So, expect table variation.

I would love to see a newly-minted Paizo Bardbarian FAQ. Other fixes might include feats or new rage powers (but that would make it non-CORE if the intent is to allow it). In my opinion, the barbarian text should say something like "...cannot use charisma-based abilities or skills, except..." which would close the loophole with 2 words and treat rage like any other condition that affects abilities and skills when applied.

Also, when it comes to using mind-affecting abilities on mindless creatures, the newer mesmerist class includes a possible precedent (perhaps retroactively) for how that should work (including a 50% failure chance, I think). Have a look. I'd be interested to know what you think.

[Blackfoot]

My one last comment about this is that anytime you force a GM to make a decision about something that is in a grey area of the rules, it's kinda rude. You are putting them on the spot and forcing them to potentially 'be wrong' which is a situation that GMs (and people) in general don't much like to be in. They have to make a decision about a nebulous rule, some make the decision and move on, others labor over it... but regardless.. something that isn't well defined in the rules is something to avoid.
Not just for this particular thing, but for anything that lives in this area.

[cmdisc]

The best way to avoid that is to talk with the GM BEFORE the game to get their take on it and to give them time to think it over. That way everyone avoids rule debates during the session and you know whether you want to bring that character or a different one.

This is especially true if you come up with an interesting style of play or corner case that may or may not just be skirting the edges of some of the rules. Best to just check with the GM on it before game day.

[bigboom]

My one last comment about this is that anytime you force a GM to make a decision about something that is in a grey area of the rules, it's kinda rude. You are putting them on the spot and forcing them to potentially 'be wrong' which is a situation that GMs (and people) in general don't much like to be in. They have to make a decision about a nebulous rule, some make the decision and move on, others labor over it... but regardless.. something that isn't well defined in the rules is something to avoid.
Not just for this particular thing, but for anything that lives in this area.

It was never my intent to be rude. I just wanted to verify beforehand how the GMs would treat this situation. If I've caused offense to anyone, I truly apologize.

[cmdisc]

...anytime you force a GM to make a decision about something that is in a grey area of the rules...

If a player knows he's bringing a grey area issue to the table and knows it's contested and is trying to sneak it past me, then that would be rude. But bringing it up to the community ahead of time, as bigboom is doing, doesn't go anywhere near rude. Here we have a chance to research it, discuss it, and decide where we stand on it. So going forward when he says he's bringing X to the table that has this mix, we can inform him what our take is and he can decide to bring it anyway or something else.

So no, bigboom, you're not being rude. I think BF's comment was more about when players hit GMs with known grey spots out of the blue during play. What you're doing here is EXACTLY what GMs want players doing. :)

That said, sometimes things creep up during play when a player might think X and Y mix just fine but a GM is suddenly not sure. It is what it is. No one is trying to be rude or sneaky. The GM can call a 5 minute break if he wants. Then he can make the call and we go with it. If he changes his mind on it later, then fine. If he trusts the player for the session and then later thinks the player was wrong....well, it's not exactly going to break the game.

[HoloGnome]

Hey bigboom. I think the discussion is great and I also agree that last-second GM ambush is sometimes an issue...but that wouldn't be directed at you. As a player, you are extremely considerate!

I wish your worthy question had the benefit of a concrete FAQ entry.

[Lord Kavos]

I know as a GM 'grey' doesnt work for me...my answer when this 'springs' up in a game is almost always no...

When a player is looking to explore the grey, i'm not about to risk ruining the game for the other players by an on-the-spot decision - one upset is better than 6 (the good of the many).

Though I will also say I can relax this position for roleplaying/story reasons...but they would almost have to be purely role (not roll).

having said that I agree this is the best way to deal with the grey - talk about it. Solid grey is better than whispy.

[Blackfoot]

I most certainly wasn't trying to imply that DISCUSSING a grey area character was rude.. I do kinda think that regardless.. bringing them to the table... even when you ask the GM ahead of time is probably a bad idea. Again, it puts him on the spot... in much the way that Lord Kavos describes... he's running a game.. he's not writing rules. His job is to keep things moving and fair for everyone. The game works best when everyone is trying to help him do that.

I've digressed a good bit from your bardarian question and gone off on a tirade against players with questionable builds... go figure. :)

Anyway.. I definitely don't think this thread is a bad idea at all.. and didn't in any way interpret it as rude... just please don't bring your bardarian to my table. :)

[cmdisc]

For those that might be interested in this sort of thing, I've created a thread on Paizo's Pathfinder Rules forum to address this specific issue. The hope is to try and generate a FAQ from Paizo. But seeing how long it's been an issue without any weigh-in from them, I'm not holding my breath. At the very least, it might allow us to read the FOR and AGAINST arguments that exist in the PF communities to give us a better idea of how we'd rule on it.

[Blackfoot]

Honestly, the rules are pretty clear that you can't use Cha based abilities while raging. Performance is Cha based. The Skald class sets an odd work around.. but.. honestly.. if you play this build in standard.. you should be fine... there are plenty of ways to make it work there.

[cmdisc]

That's where we might disagree concerning Bardic Performance. Rage says I can't use any Charisma-based skills other than Intimidate. But am I considered using a skill if I'm not making a skill check, taking 10, or taking 20? Some Performances require skill checks to be made. In those instances I would agree that you can't use those. But other Performances don't require any ranks and do not require a check. So is a skill really being used then?

Remember that Rage is actually talking about TWO restrictions; skills and abilities. Bardic Performance is an ability that sometimes requires a skill check. Inspire Courage does not require any such check.

You might consider it to be a Charisma-based ability, but Rage never says anything about charisma-based abilities (such as what a Lilitu Demon has). It only talks about abilities that require concentration or patience. But since Inspire Courage is not listed as requiring patience or concentration, then it doesn't.

[Blackfoot]

To be honest.. the whole rage thing is pretty squishy.. can you fire a bow? If you've ever tried to fire a bow accurately at any sort of range.. you'll know that it requires concentration and patience.. so no bows either?

[Lord Kavos]

Honestly, the rules are pretty clear that you can't use Cha based abilities while raging. Performance is Cha based. The Skald class sets an odd work around.. but.. honestly.. if you play this build in standard.. you should be fine... there are plenty of ways to make it work there.

I tend to agree - perform is a cha skill, inspire courage is a performance, because you don't have to have to roll a check (friendly effect) shouldn't be a clause to allow it to work...

[cmdisc]

Someone dug up a few postings from James Jacobs on this issue. In the first, JJ mentions that the text saying "A bard is trained to use the Perform skill to create magical effects..." is just fluff text left over from 3.5 and not meant to be used as a rule. I know he's normally not a rules guy, but in his following post, he mentions how he had a hand in designing the Bard in the CRB.

Posts are from here: https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=330?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Questions-Here#16460

Yes this is just his opinion and not a FAQ. But in the absence of anything else, this is all we really have to go on to interpret what the rule is. Also considering he is in the know about the Bard's design, that gives weight to his words.

And to be honest it's actually a good thing that the bit of text is only fluff. Because otherwise the rules are in conflict with each other. According to the CRB, "...whenever you attempt to use a skill, you must make a skill check."

Since Inspire Courage doesn't require a skill check, then by RAW you can't be considered to be using a skill.

What may be the issue here is mixing Skills and Abilities. We can't use charisma-based skills while raging (other than Intimidate). But there is no such limit on Abilities. A barbarian/cleric can still channel negative energy against his enemies while raging and that is a charisma-based ability. We know he can use it because it isn't listed as requiring any patience or concentration or a forbidden skill check to activate.

[cmdisc]

To be honest.. the whole rage thing is pretty squishy.. can you fire a bow? If you've ever tried to fire a bow accurately at any sort of range.. you'll know that it requires concentration and patience.. so no bows either?

True. Firing a bow, scaling a wall, or doing just about anything other than flailing away at something requires some degree of concentration or patience. And yet we know Rage specifically allows for Climbing a wall because it's the focus of one of the Rage Powers. It really doesn't help that they put an undefined term into the rules. Concentration is defined. Skill use is defined. Patience is.....

???

[Blackfoot]

Do we really want to start talking about whether or not barberics should be allowed to channel while raging? Inspire Courage IS kinda like casting a spell... I'm not quite sure why you are fighting so hard on this one cmd. I can certainly see both sides of it.. hence the position I took on the whole thing.

[cmdisc]

If we are going to discuss what we think the rules are saying, as PFS GMs it really is our job to call these types of cases. And we want to make sure we get them right. Am I taking this too seriously? Maybe. But I can't base a ruling on what is "kinda like" something if RAW seems to be telling me otherwise. I would agree that Spell-like abilities are kinda like casting a spell, because they are defined as such. But Inspire Courage and Channeling are Supernatural Abilities, which are treated differently. They don't fall into the "concentration required" category. And if they don't require a skill check to activate, then per the CRB, they aren't using a skill. As for "patience", I can only assume this is flavor text as the word has no game definition to it.

That said, yes there are certainly enough grey areas that are going to generate table variation when there is an absence of anything concrete (Greater Trip or Greater Feint, anyone?). But after seeing JJ's posts, I'm not so sure this is one anymore. The crux of the "No Inspire while Raging" argument is based on text that JJ has defined as flavor and not rules. And this is from a guy who says he had quite a bit of hands-on with designing the Bard. So I can only assume he knows what he's talking about. Since we have nothing official that contradicts this, we have no reason not to take him at his word.

So what am I left with? Inspire Courage doesn't need a skill check, so per the CRB it isn't using a skill. It is a Supernatural ability that is not defined as requiring patience or concentration. So as ridiculous as some might think it sounds, there really is nothing barring it from being used while Raging.

In all sincerity, I really can't come to any other conclusion at this point.

Besides, a raging death metal bard whipping his allies into a frenzy as he screams "We are Death! You are Dead!" over and over again or a negative Gorum cleric charging headlong into a group of enemies as he rages in melee and quick channels the lot of 'em, are rather fitting images of how that all might work. :)

<shrug>

[HoloGnome]

The problems for me are wordsmithing (not intended as pejorative) and the fundamental nature of rage.

Wordsmithing: I see it as a hole in the rules and see no reason why rage should not affect charisma-based skills and abilities. I agree that the rules don't say that explicitly, but I think the rules are in error and need FAQ treatment or errata, one way or the other. It's one short sentence. It shouldn't take nearly 10 years to resolve. However, I also agree that the rules should not be open to interpretation, so this is a tough one for me. Also, this debate existed prior to Pathfinder, so it seems like an oversight or gap, rather than as an intended consequence of good design and I dislike having to interpret it. But, I guess if it's RAW only, and, if forced, I will have to rule against my conscience and what I see as common sense RAI rage restrictions. So...cmdisc is right at the level of RAW, but I see it as broken.

Nature of Rage: Putting aside the wordsmithing issue, the explicit things Barbarians are allowed to use during rage are specified in the class description, afforded by special rage-friendly classes (Skald/Bloodrager, etc.) or are granted every other level in the form of Rage Powers (a number of which are supernatural abilities). cmdisc is right that Inspire Courage is a supernatural ability, but so are various rage powers. The point of limiting the rate at which Barbarians get Su/Ex rage powers in the class table is to limit what other things they can explicitly do while raging (or when Bloodragers get spells, etc.). Allowing them to act like bards while raging is giving them another supernatural rage power that is not granted by their class and seems outside the scope of what they should be able to do. Specifically, there are rage powers like Reckless Abandon (Ex)-APG that require the barbarian to sacrifice an additional -1 AC to get a +1 on attack rolls only (no damage bonus, increases every 4 levels). So, why should a barbarian with a level of bard be able to grant +1 to hit and damage for free to himself and all allies when it actually trumps a rage power that he can only get through barbarian level progression?

(The obvious answer is that it shouldn't and what's even more perplexing is that it is from the APG which trails the CRB and was added even given the long history of debate. So, it seems like there was no Paizo parsing on this issue, at least from CRB through APG...and I will add that the likely interpretation for the -1 AC is that there's only so much a barbarian can do/focus on. And, it is technically the inverse of Combat Expertise, where the furious barbarian loses focus on personal safety in favor of smashing things.)

I also agree that Barbarians can scream "Kill the halflings!" with their insane bloodlust all day long, but that act is Intimidating towards the target, rather than Inspiring in the bardic sense.

Solutions: FAQ, errata, etc., and soon, I hope.

[HoloGnome]

And, in conjunction, with my previous post, consider the rage power Inspire Ferocity that requires the barbarian to use a move action to impart Reckless Abandon to allies. That's how a barbarian "inspires" - with 2 rage powers and 4 levels of progression to get the 2 rage powers. So, Inspire Courage with no penalties and only a single level of Bard? Nope.