Problems with Fantasy Grounds automation and player interactions

[bullywug]

I've been using Fantasy Grounds for a few months now to run our 4e game. I've noticed since we started using Fantasy Grounds that we've developed a problem with players not interacting with the group. They don't describe what they're doing. Sometimes they don't talk at all, they just use their power and sit there.

I've tried getting the players to interact more: Tell me what they are doing, who they're attacking, what they roll, etc but only a couple of the players ever do and one in particular never says what he's doing. I turned off the setting that shows whether an attack hits an NPC or not hoping that would pry them out of their shell but unfortunately nothing changed.

I'm hoping that someone has run into this problem before and can recommend changes that I can implement to get the game to be more like pen and paper or something to force the players to interact with me more. This software is so automated sometimes I wonder why I show up for the games because I get bored just sitting here reading text.

[damned]

Hey bullywug. Are you using Voice or Text?
Perhaps you can firstly set the standard by really getting descriptive on your end. Give that two sessions and and see if it draws the players back out of their shells.
If it doesnt - explain to the players that you require more input from them. The game is not fun for you without the collaborative story telling. You may choose to do this privately with the specific players.
If it doesnt improve and you are not having fun then call the game done. If you are not having fun why are you doing it?

[JulioIP]

Ya thats a tough one, Not software related in my opinion. I think alot of people find it harder to roleplay online, it seem like it would be just the opposite.

But i think its about trying to create the atmosphere, so for instance when the mobs attack, really describe it with alot of flair, room descriptions, smells, sounds etc. I think its alot harder as dm to create the atmosphere online. i know i am, as a DM, really trying to improve on that aspect.

so i'll throw out a few suggestions

1. really take time to learn the program, i would try to run practice sessions where you are just looking or dissecting one aspect of the software or character for that matter to help improve game flow.
2. think about a program like Syrinscape for ambient background music, for me its a little hard (not the software just the incorporation of the software) but the times i have used it, it worked well and seemed to add alot.
3. if you as the Dm really spice up your descriptions as to what is happening, hopefully the PC's will follow and get descriptive in there activities.
4. Describe what they are doing occasionally to try to set the tone. lets say the rogue is attempting to pick a lock and he rolls and is successful, dont let it stop there, if the player doesnt jump in and describe it help them out a little, you can say something like the rogue, stares at the lock momentarily and after a few moments reaches into his pouch and pulls out his lockpicks, he squats down to get eye level with the lock and slowly begins to interact with lock and then, "CLICK" and the rogue turns to smile at his compainions and gets up and bows and tells the party "I cant be stopped, there isnt a lock i cant pick " blah blah blah!!
5. Remind everyone at the start to lets try to be descriptive in our actions and maybe even offer a 250 exp reward for who the party thinks was the best roleplayer for the night.

I think one of the problems online is that you cant see the other players, like at the table i might say i take my sword and thrust it into the chest of the beast! and while saying that i may actually be using my hands and body to mimmick the act. while it seems like a simple gesture it really can add alot to the attack. and if you dont verbally convey that then some of it is lost.

Hope that helps some, glad you asked the question actually cuz it made think about it alittle more. looking forward to reading some of the great responses im sure you will be getting

Julio

[bullywug]

Hey bullywug. Are you using Voice or Text?
Perhaps you can firstly set the standard by really getting descriptive on your end. Give that two sessions and and see if it draws the players back out of their shells.
If it doesnt - explain to the players that you require more input from them. The game is not fun for you without the collaborative story telling. You may choose to do this privately with the specific players.
If it doesnt improve and you are not having fun then call the game done. If you are not having fun why are you doing it?

So, the very first thing I did when the problem first arose is when a player would not describe what was happening I would describe it ("So Effran attacked Chillborn Zombie 1 with his Gaze of Defiance. It hits and he does 7 damage"). This had no effect except to make me loose my voice by the end of the game session.
The next thing I did was explain to the players that the descriptions were necessary and were part of the game. I've done this as a group (to avoid singling out individual players) and also, more recently, individually discussed the problem with the players. Nothing changed at all.
We're as much a social group as a gaming group. We do other activities outside of the game sessions and we're pretty casual. I don't think this would be an issue to dissolve the group but I may be forced to stop using Fantasy Grounds.

[Trenloe]

We're as much a social group as a gaming group. We do other activities outside of the game sessions and we're pretty casual. I don't think this would be an issue to dissolve the group but I may be forced to stop using Fantasy Grounds.
Are you playing face-to-face?

[bullywug]

Ya thats a tough one, Not software related in my opinion. I think alot of people find it harder to roleplay online, it seem like it would be just the opposite.

But i think its about trying to create the atmosphere, so for instance when the mobs attack, really describe it with alot of flair, room descriptions, smells, sounds etc. I think its alot harder as dm to create the atmosphere online. i know i am, as a DM, really trying to improve on that aspect.

so i'll throw out a few suggestions

1. really take time to learn the program, i would try to run practice sessions where you are just looking or dissecting one aspect of the software or character for that matter to help improve game flow.
2. think about a program like Syrinscape for ambient background music, for me its a little hard (not the software just the incorporation of the software) but the times i have used it, it worked well and seemed to add alot.
3. if you as the Dm really spice up your descriptions as to what is happening, hopefully the PC's will follow and get descriptive in there activities.
4. Describe what they are doing occasionally to try to set the tone. lets say the rogue is attempting to pick a lock and he rolls and is successful, dont let it stop there, if the player doesnt jump in and describe it help them out a little, you can say something like the rogue, stares at the lock momentarily and after a few moments reaches into his pouch and pulls out his lockpicks, he squats down to get eye level with the lock and slowly begins to interact with lock and then, "CLICK" and the rogue turns to smile at his compainions and gets up and bows and tells the party "I cant be stopped, there isnt a lock i cant pick " blah blah blah!!
5. Remind everyone at the start to lets try to be descriptive in our actions and maybe even offer a 250 exp reward for who the party thinks was the best roleplayer for the night.

I think one of the problems online is that you cant see the other players, like at the table i might say i take my sword and thrust it into the chest of the beast! and while saying that i may actually be using my hands and body to mimmick the act. while it seems like a simple gesture it really can add alot to the attack. and if you dont verbally convey that then some of it is lost.

Hope that helps some, glad you asked the question actually cuz it made think about it alittle more. looking forward to reading some of the great responses im sure you will be getting

Julio

Thanks for the feedback. I thought like you at first but previously we were using Roll20. It was less automated and it seemed to keep the players actually playing and not just button mashing. Every suggestion you made I've tried (and still do try) except the audio. I've tried that in the past and no one seemed to care (it's a fair bit of work to create the soundscapes and if no one is enjoying it then there's no point to it). I do believe this is software related but only in as much as Fantasy Grounds does so much for the PCs. I'm wondering if there's a way to turn it off so the players have to talk like they do in a pen and paper game. As it stands now the players roll their dice but they don't have to ask if it hits. I turned off the feature that tells the players if it hits but they still don't say anything when they attack. If this were pen and paper they would tell me what power they were using, then roll their dice, then I would tell them if it hit or not and they would tell me the damage and any effects. Problem is with Fantasy Grounds that's all automated and displayed in the chat window so in the players mind (I assume) there's no need to say what they're doing. That's why I think if I could make it more like pen and paper that it might pry them out of their shells.

As far as the webcam problem we've found a solution to that. We have several players playing locally and a couple of players playing remote. We use Skype for video conferencing and we use the Kinnect on the XBox for our webcam. It has very high quality image and the camera zooms in on who ever is speaking or moving at the moment and follows them around. The players tell me it's much more interesting than a webcam that just sits there and has a grainy image because of the low light. It may not be good for games but I've found a use for my Kinnect!

[bullywug]

Are you playing face-to-face?

We are mixed. I have four players that meet at my house and two others who play remote.

[Trenloe]

We are mixed. I have four players that meet at my house and two others who play remote.
And which players are the "just sit there" players - remote or face-to-face?

[Moon Wizard]

I think the video chat has a lot more to do with keeping people on point than anything else. It's very easy for people to let themselves get distracted browsing online, doing other work, or even playing other games. When you have a video chat going, you can see when people are disengaging easier, and adjust the gameplay to suit. (ask them specific questions, spring a surprise on them, call the night early if multiple people distracted, etc.)

Regards,
JPG

[bullywug]

And which players are the "just sit there" players - remote or face-to-face?

Everyone does it to one degree or another but I would say the problem is worst with the remote players. One player, probably the worst at this, is the most experienced player in the group and when he's playing in person he's quite into the roll playing. The other remote player isn't as bad but he's new to RPGs and I think he's picking up the other players bad habits. The problem isn't just the remote players and I try to always remind players to say what they're doing but after months of nagging I'm just tired and I've stopped pushing them to say what they're doing. Now I'm looking for some other solution. Maybe social engineering or something.

[Trenloe]

I try to always remind players to say what they're doing but after months of nagging I'm just tired and I've stopped pushing them to say what they're doing.
Well, if talking to them and nagging them isn't doing anything then you need to take away the ability to do the power checks/rolls without saying what they're doing. Dumb down the character sheets so the powers aren't there - or they can't roll from them. Get them to just roll the d20 and then tell you what the total is - running from a paper character sheet in front of them, or stored outside of Fantasy Grounds.

Of course, doing this is going to remove a lot of the nice things that this will give a GM - being able to review PC sheets, the nice automation (you still want it to help you), etc.. But, be very careful, if you start forcing people to do stuff and taking away the nice tools then you're going to get resentment.

You might find that taking away the tools doesn't do much, as they may have become set in their ways.

It also might be a time for a change - if your players aren't investing in the game then sounds like a change is needed. It might just be that playing for months has jaded them - this happens in even the best games and doesn't reflect badly on the GM. Play a different system/campaign, rotate GMs, even have a break for a while. If the game session is now more about the getting together with friends aspect for some players then, then forcing them to do something they don't want to isn't a good idea - look at why they aren't investing in the game.

[bullywug]

Well, if talking to them and nagging them isn't doing anything then you need to take away the ability to do the power checks/rolls without saying what they're doing. Dumb down the character sheets so the powers aren't there - or they can't roll from them. Get them to just roll the d20 and then tell you what the total is - running from a paper character sheet in front of them, or stored outside of Fantasy Grounds.

Of course, doing this is going to remove a lot of the nice things that this will give a GM - being able to review PC sheets, the nice automation (you still want it to help you), etc.. But, be very careful, if you start forcing people to do stuff and taking away the nice tools then you're going to get resentment.

You might find that taking away the tools doesn't do much, as they may have become set in their ways.

It also might be a time for a change - if your players aren't investing in the game then sounds like a change is needed. It might just be that playing for months has jaded them - this happens in even the best games and doesn't reflect badly on the GM. Play a different system/campaign, rotate GMs, even have a break for a while. If the game session is now more about the getting together with friends aspect for some players then, then forcing them to do something they don't want to isn't a good idea - look at why they aren't investing in the game.

That's some really good advice. Thank you.

[Nylanfs]

Say you need a break and have one of them be the DM for a while. :)

[damned]

Have you asked the player "why dont you role play anymore?"? He might have an answer? It might or might not be gaming related.
If he doesnt I would also maybe try and swap GM roles for a little while. Freshens you up and it might awaken this players creativity.

[ddavison]

I'm not sure if this would work, but you could impose a 25% miss chance whenever a player doesn't describe their action and have it so that miss chance can be addressed with any special powers or abilities and say that it even applies to attacks that don't normally give a miss chance (i.e. 25% chance an NPC who failed a Save actually made their save.) Explain why you are making the change. You are spending a lot of your time to prep and run the games as a DM and the roleplaying aspect is something that is very important to your enjoyment of the game. Without that, you'd rather not be DM'ing and maybe not even playing.

If you have more time, you could also try DM'ing the same game with another group online. There are always a ton of players online looking for a good DM and you could start off your recruitment thread with a note about your expectations for roleplaying -- even for combat actions.

[bullywug]

I'm not sure if this would work, but you could impose a 25% miss chance whenever a player doesn't describe their action and have it so that miss chance can be addressed with any special powers or abilities and say that it even applies to attacks that don't normally give a miss chance (i.e. 25% chance an NPC who failed a Save actually made their save.) Explain why you are making the change. You are spending a lot of your time to prep and run the games as a DM and the roleplaying aspect is something that is very important to your enjoyment of the game. Without that, you'd rather not be DM'ing and maybe not even playing.

If you have more time, you could also try DM'ing the same game with another group online. There are always a ton of players online looking for a good DM and you could start off your recruitment thread with a note about your expectations for roleplaying -- even for combat actions.

That could be a good plan for if I reach the point where I'd rather not DM. I do like your idea of DMing another group. I'm currently learning 5e because we can't find players for 4e anymore. I'm really busy with school at the moment (my program is ending and I'm starting to look for an internship) so I don't have a ton of free time but that should change once I have a job.

Thanks again for the great feedback.