Michael Brock Posts About Cheating In PFS

[GM BK]

Spotted this on their forums today, and figured I would pass it on.

Do Not Encourage Cheating (https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nqg6?Do-not-encourage-cheating#1)

His main reasons for posting this are related to:

-8 player tables
-Playing out of tier and applying a Chronicle incorrectly (i.e. Playing a 6th level PC in a Tier 7-11 game and applying a Chronicle to that 6th level PC)
--Changing the mechanics of a scenario ( a little fluff change for roleplaying purposes is not a problem, adding creatures is)
--Failing to report a game when it is played by PreGens so it can be GMed/Played at a later time with real characters once they are of the correct level.
--Failing to apply a GM Chronicle sheet and saving them up to a later date when multiple Chronicles are all applied at the same time
--Intentionally seeking to obstruct another player from completing a faction mission

Not saying I've encountered anything of the above, or any other instances of cheating here, but Paizo isn't known for making posts like this so I thought it was worth sharing.

[GM BK]

And now that I look back, it's from 2012.... lol! Old news!

[cmdisc]

It's ok. Still a good reminder to everyone. I haven't seen this happening here, but against still a good reminder to keep us from getting to lax.

[Malkavian_Andi]

And now that I look back, it's from 2012.... lol! Old news!

yep, I didn't expect it to be something new, knowing that Mike Brock left Paizo last year and Tonya Woldridge is in charge.
But I agree, it's still a valid point (as with the online chronicles issue some time ago, I didn't expect some of those things were actually done by people).

[GM BK]

Ya, I had recently asked a question on the Paizo forums concerning recording items purchased on a chronicle and the general consensus from majority of the folks that responded was that they filled out the XP, PP and Gold rewards, then signed it and hand it to the player for him to finish later, which is against the rules within the guide book. a GM is only suppose to sign chronicles that have been completely filled out. I was told I was wasting my time by doing it that way. 0.o

[kwarner1986]

Ya, I had recently asked a question on the Paizo forums concerning recording items purchased on a chronicle and the general consensus from majority of the folks that responded was that they filled out the XP, PP and Gold rewards, then signed it and hand it to the player for him to finish later, which is against the rules within the guide book. a GM is only suppose to sign chronicles that have been completely filled out. I was told I was wasting my time by doing it that way. 0.o

*gets a mob together with saps*
"So you want to play by the rules, huh."

After my first three months playing, I didn't realize that all my items had to be on the chronicle sheet as well as a tracking sheet (even though no one looks at them), and let's just say, I had a lot to fix on Rebecca and Evelyn. Live and learn, then force your GM to add your stuff before they sign.

[GM BK]

Actually, you do not need to itemize on the chronicle sheet anymore. they changed that when the ITS was introduced back in season 5. although a gm still needs to approve your purchases, all you need to record on the chronicle sheet is the gold spent.

[HoloGnome]

Actually, you do not need to itemize on the chronicle sheet anymore. they changed that when the ITS was introduced back in season 5. although a gm still needs to approve your purchases, all you need to record on the chronicle sheet is the gold spent.

Per the Guide, you do need to itemize. Chronicle sheets should show all purchases and, logically, the Item Tracking Sheet is an index into the items of 25gp or more purchased across all chronicles. If there were no itemized lists on the chronicle sheets, then anything less than 25gp would never be shown, including every 1st level spell you scribe and all kinds of other gear, etc. From my perspective, the Season 7 Guide is unambiguous on these points, but whether or not GMs follow those indications is another matter.


A GM must be present in order for you to purchase items. This can be done before, during or after the adventure. ALL TRANSACTIONS must be recorded on the scenario’s Chronicle sheet and reflected on your character’s Inventory Tracking Sheet.


An Inventory Tracking Sheet has been included at the end of this document and is to be used for tracking all purchases of 25 GPs or more, as well as what Chronicle sheet the item was purchased from (if any) and any consumables used.

So, until Paizo changes or amends the Guide, if your PC purchases something, it should always be shown on a chronicle. If it is 25gp or more, it should also be indexed on the ITS with the number of the chronicle where it is shown so that GMs can quickly review your high-level ITS instead of having to wade through each individual chronicle (one document vs. many, where the chronicles are the comprehensive reference if anyone wants to dig deeper).

I also prefer to note items/consumables used on chronicles, since it improves tracking by adventure, helps players recall what they used and when they used it and also facilitates audits, when necessary.

[GM BK]

I will respectfully disagree. That rule could be interpreted two ways...

One, it could be interpreted that you are required to record an itemized list of purchases, even though it does not specifically state so... or, it could be interpreted that by totaling the expenditure and recording that on the chronicle sheet, along with recording them on the ITS, that you have fulfilled the requirement that all transactions be recorded. Considering they've removed the fields in which to record an itemized list of transactions, and have introduced a tracking sheet specifically for those transactions, i am going to lean towards the latter interpretation. IMO, logic would dictate that if they really, really wanted us to itemize on the chronicle, that they would've left those fields in place so that we may do so.

Even so, if a player provides me with an itemized list that i can copy/paste onto the chronicle sheet without having to do each transaction individually, i have no problems taking care of that. If they send it to me in a format that i can't copy/paste in one swift action, then i feel perfectly within my rights to total up the purchases and record the gold piece value of the transaction that way. Especially if it's a big list of purchases, like from a GM credit build or similar situation.

Technically though, we as GM's are not obligated to record anything beyond what the player earned(xp, boons, etc.) and to cross out any items or boons that were not earned. At that point, we are suppose to hand the chronicle over to the player, and they are to fill out the rest. Then, once that is complete, they give it back to us for review and if it all lines up, we sign it. That's the way chronicles are suppose to be handled, but considering the hassle that could evolve into, i understand why we do things the way we do around here.

Lastly, I would like to refer to this thread here (https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qv9d?Petition-Deep-6-the-inventory-tracking-sheet#6). Not only did John Compton respond to it, but the comments from those that replied would indicate that totaling the purchases and recording the GP value is perfectly acceptable.

[HoloGnome]

RAW is as I've stated above. A GM must be present for all purchases, all transactions must be listed on the chronicle and the ITS only lists items greater than 25gp. Also, I admit that it can be hard when running game store games in 4 hr. slots to get it all done - at 10:30PM, people want to go home. So, some details inevitably gets lost. I also had a similar conversation wth cmdisc not long ago.

Good thread link (albeit long), and I understand the intent of John Compton's remarks, but, in this case, Paizo has not modified the later Season 7 Guide text for how to complete chronicles and ITSes to sync up with his remarks. Further, the ITS breaks down when you have items that are less than 25gp (or items that you buy with prestige). I don't understand the disconnect between JC's remarks and the latest Guide text which should have been changed if his remarks were meant to modify RAW. Maybe they will do it in the future or release an errata.

However, in the Land of Gray, I suppose if you want to define a "transaction" as a bulk purchase of items, that could also arguably be within RAW, since the meaning of "transaction" is not explicitly stated. cmdisc - maybe this point is another input that provides common ground on the issue of starting gear.

For example, I guess it could be:

#1 transaction
item:value
item value

- or -

#2 transaction
item, item, item, item: value

- or -

#3 transaction
items > 25gp (see ITS): value

#4 transaction
I have my own ITS spreadsheet: value

I use a mix of #1 and #2, depending on the cost of the items and available space.

In my opinion (and just in trying to manage the chaos of my own characters with my minimal free time), failure to list the items that are being purchased (whether as a bulk list or itemized) on chronicles makes it very hard to retrace your steps. BK - as you say, it is easy enough to paste a list of items followed by a single value into a chronicle (and I have never had a problem finding room for that kind of info in addition to other stuff). I have done it many times and put the summary gold figure - like for starting gear, etc. It's really not a problem that needs to be fixed.

For those who play in my games, I want my chronicles to be easy for any GM or player to follow and I feel accountable when signing my name.
So, in my games, expect the following:
1. Use method #1 or #2 to show all purchases (per RAW)
2. Note all consumables used, including wand charges - if you want it to say "replenish" to optimize the ITS for > 25gp, fine with me
3. Note all conditions gained that are not resolved at the end of the adventure and/or what cost in gp or PP that was used to resolve them, as applicable
4. Note special or shared expenses - like bribes and/or shared costs of Raise Dead along with the PFS IDs of the players who contributed to prevent questions in the future
5. Note faction goal(s), as requested by the player, where relevant
6. Note Special session boons or pregen instructions/elections for credit so that players know how to handle the credit in the future
7. Note anything else you want your chronicle to show, since it's your character's history

Also, I have no problem sending revised, signed chronicles, as necessary - mistakes, changes - whatever. I expect the player to use the correct version as part of their PC's history. If it were paper, we would edit the paper. Since it's digital, we have to send another digital copy.

[GM BK]

IMO, the system is more complicated than it needs to be... at the end of a scenario, i as a gm, should be able to hand you a sheet that says you earned "X" and walk away. no tallying of prestige, gold, etc... or recording of purchases, consumables, etc... none of that. You earned "X", done. on the player's side, he should have two separate logs. One is the ITS, where all purchases made and all consumables used is recorded, regardless of value. There should also be a field for total GP spent and a way to note when each purchase was made. Either by date or by scenario would be fine. The other is a log of scenarios completed where total prestige, gold and xp can be tracked. not only would this reduce some of the burden on the GM and facilitate a quicker wrap up at the end of the session, but all information would be centrally located and therefore make audits much easier.

Filling out a chronicle should take no more than a minute or two, not the hour plus i spent the other night reporting and putting them together for the scenario i ran over the weekend. I would've much rather spent that time prepping my next session, not filling out paperwork.

regardless, back to the debate above... i do want to fill them out right. i do care. i just don't want to do more work than is necessary. So in hopes of clarifying this once and for all, i decided to go back to the guidebook for the season prior to the changes and what i found was this; In the section listed as "Filling Out a Chronicle Sheet" I came across Step 8, which says...


Step 8: Have the player fill out a list of all Items Sold/Conditions Gained (X) and a list of all Items Bought/Conditions Cleared (Y). He must list any equipment purchased or sold, as well as conditions like death, disease, or ability drain restored through magic during the scenario or after its conclusion. See Dealing with Afflictions, below, for more information. Additionally, this is where the player must list any Prestige Awards his character gains by spending Prestige Points. Sometimes a player must have you witness a roll to verify he successfully scribed a scroll into his spellbook or trained an animal companion to do a new trick. Write your initials next to any such entries in these sections to show that you witnessed the roll and that the PC was successful in the attempt.

That was with the old format, prior to the ITS and with the fields on the chronicle sheet to record that information. For this season, with the new chronicle sheets and the ITS in effect, Step 8 reads as follows:


Step 8: Have the player note all items purchased or sold, including spellcasting services, in the notes section (V). If the character gained an ongoing condition like a curse or disease during the scenario, the player should note that here as well. See Dealing with Afflictions on page 38 for more information on noting conditions gained and cleared during a scenario or after its conclusion. Additionally, this is where the player must list any Prestige Awards his character gains by spending Prestige Points. Sometimes a player must have you witness a roll to verify he successfully scribed a scroll into his spellbook or trained an animal companion to do a new trick. Write your initials next to any such entries in this sections to show that you witnessed the roll and that the PC was successful in the attempt. Any equipment purchased or sold, that is more than 25 GP, should be tracked on the character’s current Inventory Tracking Sheet, denoting the Character Chronicle # (A) next to the item purchased, sold, or expended during the course of the scenario or after its conclusion.

So despite the fact that they've removed the fields to record this information in, and released a document that is intended to track this information, it appears that my interpretation is wrong and we still need to record this information on the chronicle. Not only do i find this completely redundant, but this begs the question; so what is the point of the ITS? If I have to record everything on the chronicle sheet, why am I duplicating the same information on the ITS? Information that could easily be found on the player's character sheet as well. Basically, we are recording our purchases in triplicate... 0.o

This only reinforces my opinion that the system is overly cumbersome and is in dire need of simplification. I propose an "Occupy Paizo" movement to free us from these chains!

[JohnD]

Seems like too much work and not enough fun time freddy.

[xazil]

I found your thread on Paizo.com very interesting. Seems that apparently everyone who plays RL just doesn't follow those rules (except Omaha). https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t984?Recording-Purchases-on-Chronicle-Sheets

[GM BK]

Go Omaha!

Ya, i was a bit shocked by that.... I would never sign an incomplete chronicle for someone to just fill out at a later date... that's crazy.

[HoloGnome]

...so what is the point of the ITS?

The chronicle is the master list of everything spread out over numerous pages; the ITS is an index on just a few pages max to facilitate quick reference and review. The ITS is analogous to the index of a reference book. The larger the book, the more useful the index. When you consider that PC chronicle stacks may have 33 pages, the ITS begins to take on relevance as a ready pointer to chronicle purchases. But, as you say, if the character has a correctly-documented inventory on the character sheet (which could easily include a chronicle number for each item), the ITS/index is, perhaps, more redundant than useful. I am OK as long as a player has their chronicles so that they can answer any questions that might arise and supply a reference point for new chronicles, ITS or not.

Additionally, if you know where everything is and list all purchases on chronicles per RAW (and/or have your own version of an ITS spreadsheet), the ITS is maybe less relevant. Some people need the index of a book and some people don't; some books have indices and some don't.

From a time vs. utility standpoint, the character sheet and its inventory have 100% utility, whereas the ITS is usually not needed beyond tracking consumables (which can also be easily tracked on chronicles and, more importantly, character sheets). So, is the time it takes to maintain an ITS > the time it takes to find an entry on the rare occasions when you need to do that? Does a book of 33 pages need an index? (These questions are rhetorical.)

But, maybe there is an optimal solution within the rules. To your point, I think I am going to start adding chronicle numbers to inventory items on my PC character sheets. If we're allowed to create our own ITS format and the PC sheet inventory has the chronicle number, then doesn't that qualify as the ITS? If so, maybe changing character sheet practice marginalizes the ITS and in the context of FG makes the character sheet the living ITS? (again, rhetorical) Besides the 25gp thing, the other problem with using the ITS as a PC inventory is that it doesn't include encumbrance info. Going in the other direction, if the ITS had an encumbrance field and no 25gp limit, then it could act as the PC inventory sheet, making the inventory redundant (and would do a better job, since it has the embedded chronicle data).

As for the chronicles, they aren't that much work and there can be differences in game store completions based on time, which I know from real life as mentioned before and as xazil indicates above. The time problem is that players don't know what their purchases are going to be at the end of the session. So, per RAW, they may require that the next GM include them on their chronicle (or sign off on them on a previous one).

BK - you are super-organized as a player and a spreadsheet animal! It's amazing! It must take a lot of time to enter and manage, where the googledoc template helps with all the necessary math. But, after the manual data entry, you have the meta-ITS covering everything for your PCs. The same is true for digital chronicles. I find that form-fillable templates help me (especially for rapid-turn changes or updates). In FG-land, the biggest slow-down is when players don't fill in all the necessary info on their notes tab or when they provide incorrect information that requires resolution (including erroneous chronicles from previous games).

[kwarner1986]

Go Omaha!

Ya, i was a bit shocked by that.... I would never sign an incomplete chronicle for someone to just fill out at a later date... that's crazy.

Can't resist...
https://m.memegen.com/wz37wx.jpg

[GM BK]

Can't resist...
https://m.memegen.com/wz37wx.jpg

lol, dork!

I'll admit, I'm not a big fan of chronicle sheets. I'm a bit better about it now that I have a system, but prior to that it was a frustrating experience to say the least. I just think if you're going to have a sheet that tracks your purchases, on top of your character sheet inventory, then at that point you should be good. Recording it in triplicate just sounds excessive to me. It is also obvious that there is a time issue stemming from the processes involved in filling out the chronicle, so maybe instead of recording the purchases there, each scenario should be required to have it's own ITS. This would make filling out the chronicles much quicker, and a GM would still be able to look over your purchases to make sure they're legal.

Regardless, like i said earlier... make it easy on me, and i'll put whatever a player wants on a chronicle. Make it difficult, and i'll send it to that player unsigned with my fields filled in and they can fill out the rest and get it back to me for a signature. I've already invested enough time into the event just by prepping it. I would prefer the end wrap up to be quick and painless. The faster i can get them done, the sooner i can get to prepping the next event.

[Victor]

LoL I saw the Omaha and knew it had to be Kyle. :)

Cheating at PFS would be like cheating at Solitare.
However, the rule that limits players to playing a scenario only once seems arbitrary and unnecessary. It does not seem to benefit Paizo in any way either, more likely it affects their bottom line negatively.

[GM BK]

Ya, the rules around replaying scenarios needs to be reevaluated IMO...

[HoloGnome]

You can always replay for no credit to make a table legal. In that case, you would get a 0 chronicle. So, if you really want to replay and happened to find a table of GM + 3 who were playing the scenario you have already played, you could join and bring the table to 4 PCs (minimum legal table size).

I actually like the replay rules. They make the games more important and reward those who want to GM. Further they are also supported by the Expanded Narrative boon. So, no review necessary. Replay for no credit at a minimum table or become a GM. ;)

[GM BK]

meh... i don't mind not getting xp/pp, but it would be nice if they at least gave you some gold for taking one for the team, so to speak. just to cover expendables.

[HoloGnome]

Well...certain faction goals (and some boons, GM or otherwise) might come in handy in that case.

Dark Archive: Scholar and Master Librarian
Sovereign Court: Conspirator
Exchange: Entrepreneur, Chairperson
GM Reward Chronicles: Vaults of the Ten (but 4 star and a 1-time boon)
-- just a few examples

Ideally, a player could replay with Dark Archive at a minimum table and take advantage of that PC's faction goals, bearing in mind that the point of the replay rules are to make tables viable, rather than to exploit the system.

Alternately, if someone is playing for no credit, maybe other players could buy certain extra items and allow that PC to use them during the adventure (or return them at the end, if unused), since the PC has helped to make the table legal without requiring an extra pregen and others are getting a gp reward.

Anyway, for adventure gold economy (replay or not), it's hard to beat a fully faction-goaled Dark Archive PC, where item altruism is also a viable strategy.

There's more than one way to skin an Aspis Consortium Agent, even if you never get the recognition for it. ;)

[GM BK]

Ya, didn't think about the faction goals... That could make up for the sacrifice in itself. Some of those aren't exactly easy to earn.

[HoloGnome]

Yes - the faction goal system is a great way to provide rewards for players who just want to play. The only faction goal available on the GM side is: "assign a chronicle to this character," but if you do it enough times, it counts for 2 goals. Taken together, I think the replays, newer faction goal system, GM chronicle assignment, GM boon chronicle and all the other chronicle rewards and rules, thereof, make for a nice and relatively balanced system. The replays that are offered for CORE games are also very nice, and if you GM, you can play twice and run twice for chronicle credit - that's a lot!

[Malkavian_Andi]

You won't get to check a box on the faction card if you're replaying for no credit, though. That only works on chronicle sheets that grant at least 1 XP.

[GM BK]

blah :(

[HoloGnome]

You won't get to check a box on the faction card if you're replaying for no credit, though. That only works on chronicle sheets that grant at least 1 XP.

That's true. I was just talking about benefitting from existing faction goals.

[Malkavian_Andi]

That's true. I was just talking about benefitting from existing faction goals.

That's right. As soon as you have them, you can cut down on expenses, even when playing for no credit.
Also, if you have the "Personal Fixer" convention boon from (I think) end of last season, you have an additional way of getting consumables for free.

[HoloGnome]

Also, if you have the "Personal Fixer" convention boon from (I think) end of last season, you have an additional way of getting consumables for free.

That's another great one! One of my PCs has it. Really nice!