Locked Content Frustrating at best

[eabe]

So like the title says I find the locked content very frustrating. I wanted to make my own MOD. Not to share I assure you. But to make life easier. Mainly for my players, and myself. I am new to D&D, and so are all my players. I don't own any of the books and used this program to buy pretty much everything. I have spent over 300 dollars on mods. Reading through some mods are much easier then reading through others.

For example the only way to read the entire Players Hand book is the Reference Manual. However; it doesn't let you copy anything from it. To move any of it to a story item still leaves it locked. Pretty much requires you to retype everything. Searching and reading the players handbook isn't that intuitive either. (For example: I made a custom story item called "Coinage" just to explain the exchange rate for the players, and shared it.)

Classes are also on lock-down. I wanted to merge the content into one mod to make it easier for my players. But instead they are all heavily locked. Moving a class to a story item still leaves it locked. With no way to make it editable. I can't seem to find out how to merge the content from the PHB with the D&D Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide. I also couldn't find an intuitive way to merge Backgrounds either. I also wanted to add stuff like this https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/02_UA_Underdark_Characters.pdf to the PHB. I couldn't do any of that. The only thing I found was I could make a custom XML meaning I would have to type and do everything by hand. Eye's roll. At this point I kind of wish I went the hands and paper rout and just bought everything in real books, or PDF's.

I also had to come up with a work around for ki points and sorcerer points for the players on the actions tab. Luckily I found that some good hints on the forums on how to do that stuff. I paid for this program as I thought It would make it easier. So far I just seems to double the work I have to do. I have to explain not how to play the game to my players, but that's not all. I also have to explain how to use this system. And why they still have to track things manually. Only to have them ask "isn't there a better program to track this crap for us?"

The program is too generic. Nothing seems to be integrated. Mods can't seem to effect other Mods. After looking at the data structure of the XML files found in the content.dat I figured out why. Instead of having like a classes section/XML for each mod. Each mod has its own XML. That XML is a stand alone file meant to handle everything itself. So each XML has a classes group in it instead of simply breaking it down to a class XML file. I guess I put to much hope in this program being able to handle things for me from the get go. Though I suppose the program could loop through each loaded mod, and group classes together as well. But it doesn't. Instead I have to tell the players to load like 5 different mods and choose any class from those mods. And then they when they ask why are there 3 different Sorcerer classes. I get into big long winded explanations.

I am still new to the program, and maybe I am just missing something completely obvious. But this program has a very long way to go before it can appeal a much larger audience. Especially to people who never learned the game because of its complicated rules. I know people say 5th edition is the easy compared to other editions, but it still has a lot of crap to learn. Such as how much crap can I fit in this bag? Which is still needs to be tracked manually.

For now I decided to skip all those details, as we are all just learning the game. But I really don't see why this tool cost as much as it does. And it just frustrates me that I still have to do everything. Including modifiers classes and races get manually. I really wish the developers took the time to flush out this crap instead of working on Mods that don't really do anything but add more stories.

Sorry for the rant, but when you advertise a champion book as ready to play. And all I have to read ahead a little. That is far from the truth. Battle maps aren't set up at all. And that is if they even exists. Most tokens aren't even mapped. And there is much more work get things ready to go that I haven't even touched on in this rant.

I guess I should just find someone else willing to be the DM. This crap is to much work. And I don't really feel this program helps that much. Instead it just adds another layer of complication.

While I am complaining: clicking on a window only to click on the transparent frame in front of it is also way annoying.

I am not complaining because I am angry, and that I won't use this program. I did spend a lot of money on it. I am complaining because I am frustrated with it. And I am hoping that this will give the dev's some ideas on how to improve the program. For example: there is not a single wizard, or help window. And google is pretty much the only way to figure out how to do crap in the program.

[damned]

Welcome eabe.

Ill try and add some background or other info to as many of your points as I can. Some answers wont really satisfy you but they may help you understand what is what...


So like the title says I find the locked content very frustrating. I wanted to make my own MOD. Not to share I assure you. But to make life easier. Mainly for my players, and myself. I am new to D&D, and so are all my players. I don't own any of the books and used this program to buy pretty much everything. I have spent over 300 dollars on mods. Reading through some mods are much easier then reading through others.

For example the only way to read the entire Players Hand book is the Reference Manual. However; it doesn't let you copy anything from it. To move any of it to a story item still leaves it locked. Pretty much requires you to retype everything. Searching and reading the players handbook isn't that intuitive either. (For example: I made a custom story item called "Coinage" just to explain the exchange rate for the players, and shared it.)

If you want to copy some story/reference/other material from a source book you can unlock it first and do so. Otherwise you may have to drag it into stories/items/other and then unlock it. Many items this cant be done though.
You can drag almost any items link onto a player portrait and it will then pop up for them on their screen. If you make the library module Allow Player Load they can just access the whole PHB or Sword Coast directly. Dont do this for (Allow Load) for Adventures, Monster Manuals or DMGs.




Classes are also on lock-down. I wanted to merge the content into one mod to make it easier for my players. But instead they are all heavily locked. Moving a class to a story item still leaves it locked. With no way to make it editable. I can't seem to find out how to merge the content from the PHB with the D&D Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide. I also couldn't find an intuitive way to merge Backgrounds either. I also wanted to add stuff like this https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/02_UA_Underdark_Characters.pdf to the PHB. I couldn't do any of that. The only thing I found was I could make a custom XML meaning I would have to type and do everything by hand. Eye's roll. At this point I kind of wish I went the hands and paper rout and just bought everything in real books, or PDF's.

If you had bought the books you would still have exactly the same situation you have now. They are all in separate books. SmiteWorks have the license to present the official content in FG format. They are not (AFAIK) allowed to edit and change that content. If a published product is missing what most consider an essential map - the FG product is also missing it.


I also had to come up with a work around for ki points and sorcerer points for the players on the actions tab. Luckily I found that some good hints on the forums on how to do that stuff. I paid for this program as I thought It would make it easier. So far I just seems to double the work I have to do. I have to explain not how to play the game to my players, but that's not all. I also have to explain how to use this system. And why they still have to track things manually. Only to have them ask "isn't there a better program to track this crap for us?"

Playing RPGs is not like playing a FPS. It never will be. Players do need to learn stuff. They need to learn how stuff works and what their class and race and specialties can do. As a GM I dont even try and learn that stuff. That is the players job. The 200+ page reference manuals actually need to be read - well the PHB anyway.

D&D 5e took about 4 years to produce and it was built on the back of 30 years of previous editions. It is a huge task. Converting that to computer logic is another huge task. Simpy massive. Some stuff cant be automated. Automating some other stuff would prevent common house rules from working. FG allows a lot of automation and manages a lot of book keeping. It doesnt do everything. There are things that it probably should do. Head over to the wishlist and vote on stuff and/or add some extra stuff there.



The program is too generic. Nothing seems to be integrated. Mods can't seem to effect other Mods. After looking at the data structure of the XML files found in the content.dat I figured out why. Instead of having like a classes section/XML for each mod. Each mod has its own XML. That XML is a stand alone file meant to handle everything itself. So each XML has a classes group in it instead of simply breaking it down to a class XML file. I guess I put to much hope in this program being able to handle things for me from the get go. Though I suppose the program could loop through each loaded mod, and group classes together as well. But it doesn't. Instead I have to tell the players to load like 5 different mods and choose any class from those mods. And then they when they ask why are there 3 different Sorcerer classes. I get into big long winded explanations.

What are the 5 mods your players are loading from? For most its just the PHB or its the PHB and Sword Coast. If its confusing your players just give them the one resource. They wont miss a thing. If they do feel like they are missing something then they are starting to read and learn and they will get on top of it themselves.



I am still new to the program, and maybe I am just missing something completely obvious. But this program has a very long way to go before it can appeal a much larger audience. Especially to people who never learned the game because of its complicated rules. I know people say 5th edition is the easy compared to other editions, but it still has a lot of crap to learn. Such as how much crap can I fit in this bag? Which is still needs to be tracked manually.

As above RPGs are complicated things. Not only are they complicated when dealing with the "rulese" but there are exceptions to almost every rule. And many exceptions have more exceptions. Coding these is even harder.


For now I decided to skip all those details, as we are all just learning the game. But I really don't see why this tool cost as much as it does. And it just frustrates me that I still have to do everything. Including modifiers classes and races get manually. I really wish the developers took the time to flush out this crap instead of working on Mods that don't really do anything but add more stories.

I dont understand what you are saying/doing here?
When you create a new Fighter you drag Fighter from the PHB onto the Char Sheet and it starts the ball rolling for you. It does a lot for you. If it did everything for you people would hate it because they play rule XYZ differently to the rules (most games have some house rules in them).
There have been about 18 program versions since the 5e ruleset made its debut... including 3 since you joined these boards... I think the Devs are absolutely working on making things better - all the time.



Sorry for the rant, but when you advertise a champion book as ready to play. And all I have to read ahead a little. That is far from the truth. Battle maps aren't set up at all. And that is if they even exists. Most tokens aren't even mapped. And there is much more work get things ready to go that I haven't even touched on in this rant.

I guess I should just find someone else willing to be the DM. This crap is to much work. And I don't really feel this program helps that much. Instead it just adds another layer of complication.

While I am complaining: clicking on a window only to click on the transparent frame in front of it is also way annoying.

I am not complaining because I am angry, and that I won't use this program. I did spend a lot of money on it. I am complaining because I am frustrated with it. And I am hoping that this will give the dev's some ideas on how to improve the program. For example: there is not a single wizard, or help window. And google is pretty much the only way to figure out how to do crap in the program.

The DMs job is tough. Especially a new DMs. If you havent played/run RPGs before you are dealing with two big learning curves.
Its worth it if you can stick it through. If you feel rule ABC is too onerous or complicated - ignore it or change it. RPGs are meant to be tinkered with :)
And ask questions - lots of people here will help but you gotta tell us what you need help with.

Have fun!
:)

[Willot]

I do get the impression Eade hasnt got to grips with FG yet? Like dragging class stuff to the character sheet?

And having to drag things like Weapons & armor to your Module first so It can be interacted with.

Some stuff cant be copied cause well.. Wizards wouldnt allow it. What to stop someone pasting it into Word?

And I guess the idea of not allowing editing done directly on the module data (You have to put it in your mod first) is so the orginal content isnt damaged...

If you want certain things (passages from the reference) available to the players. Perhaps a screen shot with the relative page open then crop out the rest. Pop this image in your image folder then it would be available as a picture to your players?

[dulux-oz]

As far as Players (& GMs) learning how to do things in FG - as opposed to how to play a given RPG - there's always the excellent Tutorial Videos on the FG Wiki.

But as I've told my own (odd) Player who didn't want to spend the time watching or reading the Tutorials: "If you're not willing to take the time to learn how to play, then you won't enjoy Playing very much

Cheers

[JohnD]

Why aren't you sharing the PHB with them so they can see it?

I suggest some walk through videos would also be helpful - seems like you are not only learning FG (well perhaps not) but 5e as well.

Suggest stuffing the ranting and instead start looking at what you are trying to do then posting clear, concise requests for help/advice on the forum where we are generally helpful.

[Willot]

Mmm I didn't feel it was too ranty.

[Zacchaeus]

Welcome eabe and I'm sorry your initial experience with Fantasy Grounds has not quite worked out as you expected.

There is, however, quite a number of resources which might be of some use to you and your players. I would suggest that maybe start with some of the video tutorials that you can find here (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/wiki/index.php/Videos). If you would rather read than watch then you could have a browse through the various wiki articles. The character creation (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/wiki/index.php/5E_Character_Sheet) one you and your players might find particularly useful to get you started. This one on effects (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/wiki/index.php/5E_Effects) might also help.

A couple of things about your post which damned didn't touch upon in his excellent reply. When creating characters if you have the Players handbook and the Sword Coast Adventurer's guide (player's guide) both open and shared with your players then the options for both are available as if it was one source. In other words if you choose the fighter as your class then the options available to that class which are detailed in the SCAG will also pop up for your player's to choose.

You can add the custom content that you linked but you will have to use the parse tool to do so. I would suggest however that you perhaps dip your toe into the waters of FG and the 5e ruleset by starting off with less complication and have a close look at the Lost Mines of Phandelver as your first adventure. It was specifically written by WotC as an introductory adventure and so there is a lot of hand holding and the FG version follows that tutorial feel by making things as easy as possible for new DMs and players to get going.

Finally as has been said above if you have questions then do ask them here ad you will find plenty of advice and encouragement.

[eabe]

Look, my typing is broken at best. I was going to respond to each of you, but a lot of that would overlap. And I would probable sound like a ****. So instead I am going to generalize this.

Now to simplify it, without going into huge amounts of details. As that just seems too confuse people here. Lets start with one thing then. First and foremost I would simply like too merge material. I am going to give you guys a single example using classes. And explain it in multiple ways in hopes to get across what I mean when I say merge material.

There is no UI to do this with classes in fantasy grounds. The only way to do this is through XML. Within FG there is not a single way to copy all the info in the class section. In an attempt to a combined the class section. And dropping the class on a PC doesn't do what I want. It simple a tool to create PC's of that class. This is two different things. I want to merge the class info into one mod.

The goal of the above paragraph is to simplify class creation for my players. So in the PHB (Players Hand Book), DMG (Dungeon Master Guide), SCAG (Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide), and a few custom class mods. Such as the Witch hunter mod. There are 5 places my players have to look at before they create there PC. Not a single person was able to do it without me walking them through it. When I explain that they come from different books/places. I just get an eyebrow raised at me. Followed by the question "Isn't that why we are using a program?". I get they come from different places. But I promise you most people new to D&D will not get it. And maybe even people new to FG.

To clarify further. When a player tries to create a Shadow Sorcerer. Using a custom mod. It blows there mind they have to drag the Sorcerer from a different place first, and not select a Sorcerer origin. Then load the custom crap I typed up in the mod. But still have to drag crap over from the Sorcerer when they level. Its going to get old fast. For there sake, and my sake. I would like to be able to easily combine this info. But I can't do it easily. Not without retyping everything in XML format by hand. Unless there is some unknown way to do this.

I get FG sells things as a they are sold in by WOTC and what not. But that doesn't mean they have to create a single XML file for each Item they sell. They could so easily make it many different smaller XML's. And use the XML's like a list of objects instead. And have a Classes section, instead of just throwing everything under the core rules section. This is just a suggestion. As I could see fixing/accomplishing this many different ways. I could do it myself if it wasn't so locked down by FG. And maybe there is a easy way to do this, and I am just complaining for no reason. But I find it frustrating at best currently.

I am currently looking at my merging option as: I create a Class mod using XML. That combines all this stuff into one place. But it will be a freaking pain. And I don't really want too. Where if I could simply open the XML's in Content.dat. Rip out each class into it's own XML, and have the original XML import the class info in. Because XML can do that. I would be done already.

[ddavison]

You might try making your own story entries and organizing it in ways you think make the most sense. Utilizing the link lists, you can drag each of the races and classes you want to separate links and then share that out with the players when they connect. You wouldn't have to re-enter any of the data other than the names of the classes and races so that your new outline makes sense.

[eabe]

Tried that. The data is still locked, and not editable. So I just kind of gave up. I guess though after porting it out as a mod it might be in XML format there. But haven't checked. And if so at least I wouldn't have to retype it all. And I guess I could just edit it there if true. Will have to do some testing I guess.

[ddavison]

Do you really want or need to edit the content or just provide shortcuts to the content you want to be available? Generally, I try to encourage new users to run the system as is for a little while to get the hang of things and then after you've run it for a few sessions like this, look back and see what, if anything you still want to change.

[eabe]

The actual content? Well no. I just want to add to it/merge it. For example if I could drag the Sorcerer Origin's from PHB to the SCAG or vice versa. That would save me a lot of headache. For some reason they all show up when I drag it to the sorcerer class into a PC, but I can't read them all from one place. And I defiantly can't add custom aspects to a class easily. I can do that on the PC just fine. But why would I want to do it there? When I add material I would like it to be easily reused. So editing the class section would be the best option. It's the same reason recycling is good.

Is it 100% actually required? No it is not. But it is frustrating to hand peace this all together. Once the game actually starts I don't see it as much of a problem. Well unless they use my custom sorcerer mod. But why wouldn't you want to cut down on time to create a game?

Maybe a better argument is to look at the story items. They work great. I can edit them drag them around however I want, and make my own. All very easy. Merging this from different mods is great. I can do this with the items and even the encounters provided in mods. But classes, backgrounds, and Rules. Nope they are on lock-down. And I don't see a good reason as to why? The functionality already seems to be there. Why I can't easily do it is beyond me. It feels inconsistent, and it frustrates me when I am limited. If there is a good reason for this; then I can live with it. But if the why Not can't be answered. Then why ask the why?

And if there is plan to work on it in the feature... I can accept that as well. But why would you want this? Seems like a silly question to me. Shouldn't it be why wouldn't you want this? Or why isn't it there already?

[ddavison]

There are some good thoughts there. There are a couple things going on.

1) The class and race sections of the various D&D 5E packs have some special coding embedded with the descriptive text to categorize the data and faciliate the auto-leveling feature for drag and drop. Any editing would need to have UI (user interface screens) built for each of those components and be easy to use. We have been building that external to FG and there currently is no UI built for those within FG at this time. It's a good idea, but it would take us some time to build and building it within FG would slow down the speed with which we could implement new components and features.

2) The reference library was used for parts of the text because it provides a nicer interface to read through the data and search it with the current interface. It was most commonly used with text and data that we assumed would be mostly static and without a need for editing. We expect story data for adventures to be edited much more commonly, so we try to release it in both formats. We may need to re-evaluate this going forward.

3) We are looking at several different redesigns of various components of the interface to see if we can come up with a more streamlined interface for campaign and module data in general. Sharing what you would like to be able to do helps us get an idea on what a new interface should support. While we can't guarantee that we will be able to accommodate all user requests, it will absolutely be factored into our decision making process when we try to determine the best solutions going forward.

[eabe]

1) The class and race sections of the various D&D 5E packs have some special coding embedded with the descriptive text to categorize the data and faciliate the auto-leveling feature for drag and drop. Any editing would need to have UI (user interface screens) built for each of those components and be easy to use. We have been building that external to FG and there currently is no UI built for those within FG at this time. It's a good idea, but it would take us some time to build and building it within FG would slow down the speed with which we could implement new components and features.

That's good to know. Helps me understand why things are the way they are. I am glad to see some thought process put into this. And when you say UI, do you mean like a wizard? Or just a way to handle custom edits of classes and such? Either way sounds fine to me.


2) The reference library was used for parts of the text because it provides a nicer interface to read through the data and search it with the current interface. It was most commonly used with text and data that we assumed would be mostly static and without a need for editing. We expect story data for adventures to be edited much more commonly, so we try to release it in both formats. We may need to re-evaluate this going forward.

I can understand that logic. And the program does provide a search feature. (though I wish it didn't just filter the sections.)


3) We are looking at several different redesigns of various components of the interface to see if we can come up with a more streamlined interface for campaign and module data in general. Sharing what you would like to be able to do helps us get an idea on what a new interface should support. While we can't guarantee that we will be able to accommodate all user requests, it will absolutely be factored into our decision making process when we try to determine the best solutions going forward.

I did notice. And if you guys would like my opinion on it. I will give it. This is my opinion. Though it won't hurt my feelings if you don't do it this way. Take it as a suggestion.

It looked like to me. That you guys broke the SCAG into different sections. I also noticed that the modules lost the feature to force the players to download specific modules. In my mind the modules where a good idea, but don't really give you exactly what you guys wanted. As new classes, and other stuff get added to 5E I see it as a growing pain. The modules make really good sense from a sales perspective. You sale things packaged as a book would. However; in code I think it would be better to separate each part of the module into specific sections.

Rather then splitting and loading different parts of the module. Right now when I load a module it shows up under a section. And then I can open that module content under that section. I would rather each module stayed as a single static icon in the module section. And under the library sections it only listed a tree like view of sections. So Instead of the library showing the book PHB. I would rather it showed sections like: Character creations tools, Rules, Champion tools, Items tools, and ext... And when I load a module it just adds stuff to those sections. I would also like it if what I allow players to load moved here. So instead of giving them access to the entire PHB. I simply had a check box by each item under each section. So in the classes section a check box by each class saying players can see this or not.

Also I feel any edits done in the classes section or other parts of the library should just auto save to the current loaded campaign. Not the module itself. And then also be exportable as a mod for reuse.

Unrelated to the above. I feel items should always copy. So if I create an item and drag it to a story item. Later on I drag it to a different story item and change it's color to green or something. I don't really want it changing the old item. In the other story item. Maybe a popup box asking me if I would like this as a copy or byref would be nice. I know this is opisite of how I you would want everything else to work, but I would kind of like it to work this way for Items and NPC's.

I don't know if what I am saying is coming out clear or not. I don't really explain what I am thinking clearly enough. Or should I say I normally have to explain my thoughts many times before people get what I am saying. I appreciate the time any of you have taken to try understand me. I am just trying to make a few suggestion now. Not trying to criticize anyone here, or what was done before. It is my opinion not proven fact of any sort.

And thanks again I feel less frustrated about the whole thing now.

[ffujita]

As a relatively new GM, let me share my experience with FG and 5e (since I haven't played anything except 5e on FG). If you've got all the mods, I would start with sharing the Player's Handbook with them, and only the Player's Handbook. There are a lot of things (well documented now by all the wonderful class guides that just went up) that can't be automated, and I originally found that frustrating, actually what was more frustrating was not knowing what could and what couldn't be automated. But still. Trying to run from a standing start using the Player's handbook, Elemental Evil handbook, and Sword Coast Adventurer's guide will make your life more difficult. Start with just the player's handbook -- get to know the combat tracker. I've found that trying to do all of this without FG is *much* more difficult as a GM than with it. Even though it isn't as nice as I would like, it is still very nice. But make no mistake, being a GM is much more work than being a player. Once your players know their way around the combat tracker, party sheet, their Character Sheet, etc... then you can open up the EE and the SCAG ... if you want. But start small -- in the beginning you'd never notice that you "only" have a few races.

[damned]

starting small is good advice....