Underwater Combat and Spell Casting

[Baron28]

You are a spell caster under water and attempt to cast a spell that has a verbal component. Is this possible? If so below are possible adjudications:

A
1. Roll a DC 15 check for the spell. The check is the ability for that spell or your class.
2. If you succeed, cast the spell as normal.
3. You fail, cast the spell at disadvantage.

B
1. Roll a DC 15 check for the spell. The check is the ability for that spell or your class.
2. If you succeed, cast the spell at disadvantage
3. You fail, the spell fails.

C.
1. Spells casting that requires a verbal component while underwater is not possible.

Thoughts?

[Griogre]

D: Who hasn't yelled underwater? I let them cast normally, but I may alter the spell AoE, and penalize fire spells. Basically use the yes, but ... this works differently underwater. Caster's don't get that many spells and you don't want to hose them any more than anyone else who is not aquatic in underwater combat, IMO. Don't give them a free pass but they shouldn't be penalize more either.

Alternatively, the check mechanic is not a bad idea, I would make it a concentration check instead though if that wasn't what you meant.

[LordEntrails]

I was going to say C. But then I saw D...

I agree that spell casters should not be penalized more than any other class when fighting/acting underwater. On that basis, and since I have no idea what the rules on underwater combat are, I'd just go with that theme/idea.

[Baron28]

D: Who hasn't yelled underwater? I let them cast normally, but I may alter the spell AoE, and penalize fire spells. Basically use the yes, but ... this works differently underwater. Caster's don't get that many spells and you don't want to hose them any more than anyone else who is not aquatic in underwater combat, IMO. Don't give them a free pass but they shouldn't be penalize more either.

Alternatively, the check mechanic is not a bad idea, I would make it a concentration check instead though if that wasn't what you meant.

D was the adjudication last session, but I feel that being underwater should make the casting spells with a verbal component more difficult than if they were on dry land. Altering AoE and penalizing fire spells is a good idea. Agreed that Option C would be harsh, but maybe a Wizard has to man up and be a meat shield. :) Option A is less harsh than Option B because at least there is no auto fail. By the way, the check mechanic is not on concentration but on the spell casting ability.

I like Option A adding your altering AoE and penalizing fire spells (Resistant to Fire), but it would be fun to see a Wizard take on a Giant Crayfish with a dagger or a quarterstaff. :)

[Baron28]

I was going to say C. But then I saw D...

I agree that spell casters should not be penalized more than any other class when fighting/acting underwater. On that basis, and since I have no idea what the rules on underwater combat are, I'd just go with that theme/idea.

PHB pg. 198 The 4 paragraphs detail melee (DISATK unless simple weapon) and ranged attacks (Auto Miss beyond normal range. At normal range DISATK unless crossbow, a net or a thrown weapon (javelin, trident, spear, dart). Resistant to Fire Damage. There is nothing about casting spells underwater.

[damned]

D was the adjudication last session, but I feel that being underwater should make the casting spells with a verbal component more difficult than if they were on dry land. Altering AoE and penalizing fire spells is a good idea. Agreed that Option C would be harsh, but maybe a Wizard has to man up and be a meat shield. :) Option A is less harsh than Option B because at least there is no auto fail. By the way, the check mechanic is not on concentration but on the spell casting ability.

I like Option A adding your altering AoE and penalizing fire spells (Resistant to Fire), but it would be fun to see a Wizard take on a Giant Crayfish with a dagger or a quarterstaff. :)

You are the boss! Be prepared for the Wizard to try and penalise her teammates on their underwater actions next though! If you can imagine it an describe it and it makes sense in your head - run with it. Id penalise a lot more than just fire spells though... electrical attacks would also be very interesting... :)

[jshauber]

I would rule that if they are capable of breathing underwater, then they can cast normally.

Otherwise, I like the check method and apply some penalty based on level of failure.

[Callum]

For reference, none of the previous editions of D&D placed a restriction on casting spells underwater, whether or not they had a verbal component. AD&D had a list of spells that wouldn't function underwater, while 2nd Edition generalised from this list to say that fire-based spells, those affecting forces of nature (eg call lightning) and those that summon or control non-underwater creatures had no effect, while electrical spells conducted into the surrounding water (changing a lightning bolt into an electrical fireball, for example). 3E required you to make a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + spell level) to make a spell with the fire descriptor effective underwater, and line of effect was blocked for those spells by the surface of a body of water.

[TamarValleyPete]

For my money...If it has a verbal component, the spell will require breath. If you can breathe underwater all well and good. If you cannot, still all well and good...except, you are going to run out of breath! So, casting a single action spell, no problem. Casting 2, well I think that is a hard fortitude save. Casting 3, a very hard fortitude save! Casting 4, you better be a god.

[Fear Grounds]

For my money...If it has a verbal component, the spell will require breath. If you can breathe underwater all well and good. If you cannot, still all well and good...except, you are going to run out of breath! So, casting a single action spell, no problem. Casting 2, well I think that is a hard fortitude save. Casting 3, a very hard fortitude save! Casting 4, you better be a god.

This!!!

Spells like water breathing allow complete casting to players, but shows that there had to be at least some preparation before diving into the water.

Not to mention there are species that can hold their breath indefinitely, or exceptionally long periods of time.

This puts spell casters way ahead of melee combatants, that can now only use simple weapons effectively. If they even have these (typically seen as lesser/weaker) weapons available to use. Though it can be argued that spells like freedom of movement could allow full use of any weapon under water.

I would also add that if a character does not have a swim speed, any attacks should be at disadvantage, since the character has to actively try not to drown(if they can't breath under water of course).

[Marquis_de_Taigeis]

from phb underwater combat

When making a melee weapon attack, a creature that doesn't have a swimming speed (either natural or granted by magic) has disadvantage on the attack roll unless the weapon is a dagger, javelin, shortsword, spear, or trident.

A ranged weapon attack automatically misses a target beyond the weapon's normal range. Even against a target within normal range, the attack roll has disadvantage unless the weapon is a crossbow, a net, or a weapon that is thrown like a javelin (including a spear, trident, or dart).

Creatures and objects that are fully immersed in water have resistance to fire damage.

from phb suffocating
A creature can hold its breath for a number of minutes equal to 1 + its Constitution modifier (minimum of 30 seconds).

When a creature runs out of breath or is choking, it can survive for a number of rounds equal to its Constitution modifier (minimum of 1 round). At the start of its next turn, it drops to 0 hit points and is dying, and it can't regain hit points or be stabilized until it can breathe again.

For example, a creature with a Constitution of 14 can hold its breath for 3 minutes. If it starts suffocating, it has 2 rounds to reach air before it drops to 0 hit points

in my opinion
If a players are prepared and have worked out a way for them to breath underwater then verbal spells and talking is possible
If players have not found a way to breath underwater and they attempt to verbally communicate with other characters or spell casters use a verbal spell then they they lose 30 seconds of air

[TamarValleyPete]

from phb underwater combat

When making a melee weapon attack, a creature that doesn't have a swimming speed (either natural or granted by magic) has disadvantage on the attack roll unless the weapon is a dagger, javelin, shortsword, spear, or trident.

A ranged weapon attack automatically misses a target beyond the weapon's normal range. Even against a target within normal range, the attack roll has disadvantage unless the weapon is a crossbow, a net, or a weapon that is thrown like a javelin (including a spear, trident, or dart).

Creatures and objects that are fully immersed in water have resistance to fire damage.

from phb suffocating
A creature can hold its breath for a number of minutes equal to 1 + its Constitution modifier (minimum of 30 seconds).

When a creature runs out of breath or is choking, it can survive for a number of rounds equal to its Constitution modifier (minimum of 1 round). At the start of its next turn, it drops to 0 hit points and is dying, and it can't regain hit points or be stabilized until it can breathe again.

For example, a creature with a Constitution of 14 can hold its breath for 3 minutes. If it starts suffocating, it has 2 rounds to reach air before it drops to 0 hit points

in my opinion
If a players are prepared and have worked out a way for them to breath underwater then verbal spells and talking is possible
If players have not found a way to breath underwater and they attempt to verbally communicate with other characters or spell casters use a verbal spell then they they lose 30 seconds of air

Good idea, I like it. I would perhaps go for a minute per spell though and add in a concentration check due to the unfamiliarity of casting underwater (just because I am not fond of a high constitution mage being able to cast so many spells under water with no possibility of error). Thanks for the thought.

[Naurthoron]

C.
Don't forget that spell casting is not just a word it is a full sentence, let alone the fact that sound does not propagate correctly under water, that it is difficult if not impossible to articulate, try a full sentence.

This would also be assuming that you are able to breathe under water, else forget it without a breathable gas source, keeping your breath is not applicable when you lose air by talking underwater, you will never see an apneist talking underwater, they remain completely focused on the apnea and try to slow down any other body functions (including unnecessary gestures) to keep up oxygen at a maximum).


As mentioned, even if casting out of water, fire based spells would not work under water, a creature under water would be immune to fire damage.
https://dnd5e.info/combat/underwater-combat/

The only way I would allow casting underwater is if the caster is inside some bubble of breathable gas.
with restriction of fire spells as soon as they get out of the bubble and enter contact with water.
Fire would also consuming the oxygen and render the gas unbreathable pretty quickly after bring cast.
Enriched O2 gas (which likely would not exist in a medieval fantasy world) could ignite and explode with fire or even electricity (any heat source).

Some historical examples:
38000
38001


(N.B.: I am a scuba diving instructor and apneist).

[GavinRuneblade]

C.
Don't forget that spellcasting is not just a word it is a full sentence, let alone the fact that sound does not propagate correctly under water, that it is difficult if not impossible to articulate, try a full sentence.

This wuld also be assuming that you are able to breathe under water, else forget it without a breathable gas source, keeping your breath is not applicable when you lose air by talking underwater, you will never see an apneist talking underwater, they remain completely focused on the apnea and try to slow down any other body functions (including unnecessary gestures) to keep up oxygen at a maximum).


As mentioned, even if casting out of water, fire based spells would not work under water, a creature under water would be immune to fire damage.
https://dnd5e.info/combat/underwater-combat/

The only way I would allow casting underwater is if the caster is inside some bubble of breathable gas.
with restriction of fire spells as soon as they get out of the buble and enter contact with water.
Fire would also consuming the oxygen and render the gas unbreathable pretty quickly after bring cast.
Enriched O2 gas (which likely would not exist in a medieval fantasy world) could ignite and explode with fire or even electricity (any heat source).

Some historical examples:

Example 1 - Ancient Era - Alexander the Great (https://4babed70-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/navigationdanslantiquite/archeologie-sous-marine/alexandre%20plong%C3%A9e.jpg?attachauth=ANoY7cr8pW 53rsdqx-GuaystPIAmVzMgj_nO5u5jkdA7ymPvy8d7Lcvk4UPbC-D7uV_YfiSXYW5LZusLRD822b6F2s3peD2S_pxcWrmTcBZWIhRj 7PmLHhXtbKC-wZbkP1Zo_r1wWQtYgA2RQpsb5tgs50S1Qdy8GKCamYY5-KP6jrYtMi3sTvHnYOWCKJpMdGR6G1pP-6XCFbEjcFVw-E9hxTdU6PIdsN6GW3Y2riGswPbHSDMt3_nXccnR0d9jZqDig3E TEspVr_nhBxspNJOvIl-rxhNCEQ%3D%3D&attredirects=0)

Example 2 - XVII th Century (https://4babed70-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/navigationdanslantiquite/archeologie-sous-marine/cloche.jpg?attachauth=ANoY7cqbc9hbfYlMdZFnZw0dAvBn UZOez2Skqym_qUSPR0-sJKR51PRY3HgSh1ut4lQSNAYgkvxZQcrFDolGwXIOnmDmMBItF E_WSUBMv1PFKYBilhDVDSvPR_vIxxHKiy8XGdpzbHSzyZ9zeJz mxs1VqUTPCMAZ0kXR7RL4W1PD6lc1B7lbtmUybTDddyQYjQm_O s9AAa-xR1qi-aGdpI6LuFOCoyd7rrRv0DEubyrqkDVAmzY8j1wWQdlDk0pAZO_ b_p9qgxcs&attredirects=0)


(N.B.: I am a scuba diving instructor and apneist).

your historical links don't work. Excellent commentary though.

[damned]

Dont forget we are talking about magic here.
Play it how it makes sense to you.

[Naurthoron]

your historical links don't work.

Strange, it works for me.
I have also attached the picture instead of the link to it, this might better work for some of you.

[Mytherus]

I go with C...unless the caster can breathe underwater then i revert to the check. Success you cast fail it fizzles.

Yelling a brief word underwater is completely different from the presumably complicated and long phrases of a spell..

As for dont penalize spell casters more. Why not? Thats the game if the environment penalises you it penalises you. Period. Figure something else out.