LETTER TO FG DEVELOPERS: Make a HUGE CHANGE, It comes with no big effort

[whiteTiki]

To Doug and all the Fantasy Grounds Developers that corresponds this topic:

Greetings everyone, as a brief introduction I want to clarify that I really took my time beforehand to do some heavy research on market shares according to Tabletop Roleplaying Games, statistics from several sources and some Virtual Tabletops out there that compete with Fantasy Grounds and that I think, I don't even have to mention because everyone knows to which ones I'm referring to.

I also want to make clear that I've previously created some threads about this in some other parts of the forums and have posted comments related to this situation and no serious interest has been taken on this topic. Don't get me wrong, It's not like I've been ignored by the community or something, its just that I feel like the problem hasn't been taking seriously because it has to do with "the minorities" in Fantasy Grounds and of course, Fantasy Grounds Developer's Team has its own "Priorities".

Now, moving to a different thing here, I also want to put in some context, explain the problem, present some data and propose a solution to the problem. So in this order, I will be arranging this letter;

PART 1 - Providing some Context
PART 2 - What the problem is
PART 3 - Data found
PART 4 - Solution to the problem that will help Fantasy Grounds grow


PART 1 - Providing some Context

I've been playing some Tabletop Roleplaying Games for some time now. I know its not as much as some "elders" in this community but is quite a time now. I recently moved to Virtual Tabletop and I've been trying some systems out in the last years until I reach out to Fantasy Grounds and decided I was staying with this software for all eternity.
I also want to add that I'm Mexican, live in Mexico, always have and always will (even with all our political issues, security issues, drug issues and most recently hurricane issues, I like my country) and just by that I perfectly know that I represent a "minority" in the global Tabletop and Virtual Tabletop Roleplaying Community, but this time, I'm not here to represent Mexicans, nor Spanish Speaking people from this global community I already mentioned and neither Latin Americans or something related. I'm writing this letter in representation of all of those people that belong to the Fantasy Grounds Virtual Tabletop Community that DO NOT speak English as their native language. And believe me, I perfectly know that even with all of us combined we STILL are the Minority in this community.

So, having said that, what I will do now is present you guys some information, data and the problem I have to try and convince you why listening to the "minority" in this specific case will definitely improve your platform and bring more non-English-native speakers to this community which will help Fantasy Grounds grow.

PART 2 - Explaining the Problem

The problem resides in the Game Calendar Section of your WebPage. I know it was improved lately and those were great changes, congratulations to the people behind that work, but I really think you guys missed something out. Some really important "detail" you guys should've added to this improvement.
Being someone that doesn't speak English as his native language BUT knows the language (how to read, write, speak it) allowed me to enter to this awesome world of Tabletop Roleplaying Games (Because most of the content is printed in English). Now, most of us (the people in the same position that I am) don't speak English in such a fluid way so that we can host (be DMs) a Campaign in English or play in someone else's campaign in English (I feel like I sound like Elon Musk trying to explain something), so of course, when the time comes to play and not just read the books or manuals, we all prefer to do it in our native language.

Having said that, It's really difficult or practically impossible to create a campaign using the "Game Calendar" tools available that clearly specifies a language "requirement" or the Language that will be spoken for that specific campaign. Of course you can put that into the "Description" section but believe me Doug and everyone, it's really not the same.
You must know that your competition has already solved this problem and they have campaigns hosted in all sorts of languages. They have opened themselves to this "minority" that represents everyone of us combined that do not speak English as our native language. The good thing about this, is that making this improvement, taking this really SMALL STEP FORWARD will incredibly transform this community and I'm really sure it doesn't take much time to do or program and it really brings this community awesome changes.

PART 3 - Data Found

I'm not going to paste a bunch of links and stuff you won't even go and read, so in this section I will just present some of the results I found after analyzing some data according to Market Share of Tabletop Roleplaying Games per language. I couldn't find specific information about Virtual Tabletops but this will roughly give you guys some ideas of what I'm talking about. To get this information I had to transform the data from the Market share per country to Market Share per language according to the native languages spoken per country.

Percentage of Tabletop Roleplaying Players estimated per Language

English

50.62%
French

4.23%
Mandarin

3.88%
Spanish

3.88%
Hindustani

3.53%
Portuguese

3.35%
German

3.00%
Malay-Indonesian

2.65%
Italian

2.65%
Russian

2.47%
Japanese

1.76%
Arabic

1.59%
Korean

1.59%
Other

14.81%

Accumulated of Tabletop Roleplaying Players estimated per Language

English

50.62%

All Others
Named Before

34.57%

Others

14.81%

Sometime ago I've commented, created threads and posted stuff about my problem which I believe Its not just "mine" and I believe I speak for a group of roughly 35% of the community or even less. Obviously, the results to this threads and comments I made were: "You should post this in a wish list here". And how does wish lists work? Well their based on votes, and all the things that get a lot of votes will become a "priority" to the developer team. But how could my idea even be taken into consideration if only 35% of the people that even take the time to access this "wish lists" and vote will with some luck find my proposal and vote for it. Clearly... impossible.

PART 4 - Solution to the problem that will help Fantasy Grounds Grow

This is definitely my last resource. This is as hard as I'll push for this to happen, and I want to be clear, I don't expect it to happen right away, I just want to know that it has been taken into consideration and whenever there's some available or free time to do it, it will be done.

My incredibly simple solution proposal for this problem we have is this:
Doug and Developers in charge of the FantasyGrounds webpage. You guys should go to the Game Calendar section, and edit two simple and easy things;

In the "Create New Campaign" section/interface you guys should add a "Language" field with a dropdown list that displays either the languages besides English that I mentioned before or any other list that you consider appropriate according to your data.
In the Game Calendar main interface you guys should add an additional Column and Filter so that anyone searching for a campaign in a specific language should be able to find it easily.


Those 2 simple and easy steps will definitely globalize Fantasy Grounds a bit more and help it grow. I'm not asking that you guys have your software translated to several languages like your competition has, or do the same with your webpage, I'm just asking for those 2 simple steps to be taken into consideration for us, the estimated 35% of this community.

I sincerely hope this idea gets to you guys and I really hope you can see the big picture here and the reason why only sometimes and in very specific cases, its ok to prioritize something for a minority group.


-Thanks for reading, sincerely

[Zacchaeus]

I'm actually quite surprised that there's so few Spanish speaking VTT users given that there's more Spanish speakers than English ones worldwide.

[whiteTiki]

Its surprising, but all these games are not that popular here in Mexico and I suppose its the same for other similar countries.

For example, you can compare the 3 biggest cities of Mexico (Mexico City, Guadalajara and Monterrey) to the 3 biggest cities in the US. Make a search in the Wizards D&D page for 5th edition in the "Find your store" section and you'll notice a huge difference between the number of stores in the US against the ones in Mexico. Even when Mandarin, Hindustani and Spanish are spoken by most people, the game changes when you talk specifically about Tabletop Roleplaying Games.

[demonsbane]

I'm seeing many Spanish Fantasy Grounds users around. It seems to be a more or less healthy community, but I'm not checking data.

One of the reasons we don't see a higher number of such users could be the lack of translations for the latest edition of Dungeons & Dragons. When it's about Spain, other countries —even the Americas— are more used to the English language.

[Zacchaeus]

Yeah, they've neglected a Scottish translation as well :)

[Full Bleed]

Looks like a no-brainer.

But, frankly, I'm not sure you needed to mount such a staunch defense of the idea.

Adding those two fields makes sense even if only 2% of FG users speak or game in a different language.

[damned]

Yeah, they've neglected a Scottish translation as well :)

I didnt think you could translate Scottish? Or maybe thats just Welsh? :)

[whiteTiki]

Looks like a no-brainer.

It is, I know. Sorry


But, frankly, I'm not sure you needed to mount such a staunch defense of the idea. Adding those two fields makes sense even if only 2% of FG users speak or game in a different language.

You may be right, but I couldn't find a better way of doing it, I really tried several times for this to get taken into consideration with no success before. Additionally, I learned that most of the changes were based on "votes". Although voting is an interesting and democratical way to solve things, this system tends to "ignore" or lower the priority for the "minorities" requests which might not always be the correct way of doing things. You get the idea.

[dulux-oz]

And how does wish lists work? Well their based on votes, and all the things that get a lot of votes will become a "priority" to the developer team. But how could my idea even be taken into consideration if only 35% of the people that even take the time to access this "wish lists" and vote will with some luck find my proposal and vote for it. Clearly... impossible.

Don't sell us English-speakers (well, Aussie Speakers, anyway) so short - you'd be surprised. I'd actually vote for something like this, because its valuable to the whole community, not just the 35% - and I'm pretty sure a lot of others in the 50%+ would vote for it as well. :)


I'm not asking that you guys have your software translated to several languages.

Actually, its very easy for FG to be translated into other languages, especially since we made the move to v3.x. All it takes is for a native speaker to make a copy of the relevant "string" lua files, change the string resources contained in the "string" lua files to their non-English equivalents, and then package the new versions of the "string" lua files into an Extension which you then load like any other Extensions.

Furthermore, if a Community Extension (eg mine) follows the same "string" lua file format - and I don't know why the Community Devs wouldn't be following this practice - then the same process can be followed to change the Extensions languages.

In fact, if people want it and if they give me a few days I'll do up a Change-Languages-Extension Toolkit, to make it super easy for people - people just gotta ask! :)

Cheers

[ianmward]

Yo también doy mi voto a favor!

[damned]

I think you will find that DDavison is receptive to improvements on the calendar - if you dont see him post on this thread within a couple of days you might poke him directly :) im sure he'll love being poked!

[dulux-oz]

im sure he'll love being poked!

I thought it was only you that like a good poke?!?!?!

[ddavison]

It's a good suggestion and one we have in the queue. I had been waiting on some progress from a volunteer dev I was working with on how to implement *any* new fields within the new calendar front-end. I expect that I could put it into the old calendar campaign edit page with a dropdown box of choices without too much effort and save that into the DB. On the campaign listing page, a filter is probably not too bad either. Screen real-estate is still pretty small. Would it be necessary to display it in a column or just allow it to be filtered? Column space is in short supply already.

As for the other thing that Damned brought up, I'll take the Marsellus Wallace defense.

[damned]

As for the other thing that Damned brought up, I'll take the Marsellus Wallace defense.

Youre running me outta town now?
I suppose thats fair.... :)

[dulux-oz]

As for the other thing that Damned brought up, I'll take the Marsellus Wallace defense.

Coward! :p

[LuckyDragon]

I agree. I have 3 friends who are all originally from Puerto Rico and they play RPGs pretty hardcore. They have recently begun to look into VTTs by my recommendation. But, 2 of the guys have some small trouble with English, and it would be nice to see the advancements suggested above made. The idea has my support.

[Blackfoot]

Screen real-estate is still pretty small. Would it be necessary to display it in a column or just allow it to be filtered? Column space is in short supply already.You might consider reducing some of the font sizes.. this would free up some real estate and honestly since much of the text is small to begin with, having larger fonts in there seems like a bit of a waste. The other thought I had for freeing up some space is to make the expanded text for each game 'collapsible' so that the whole page could be viewed 'at a glance' .. Some reference to language seems like a good idea. Many games seem to handle this currently in the actual game name.

[whiteTiki]

On the campaign listing page, a filter is probably not too bad either. Screen real-estate is still pretty small. Would it be necessary to display it in a column or just allow it to be filtered? Column space is in short supply already.

I think that in the Campaign Listing Page you don't have to add an additional column, better to keep it clean and simple. Just with the filter it would be a nice improvement, although when you click on the Campaigns Name (to see its detailed page) the language of course should be listed as one of the details.

Thanks everyone for your support. I really appreciate it because I know Roleplaying Games are not so popular in other languages.
Dulux-Oz, or anyone else; if you need some help with Spanish translations feel free to ask.

Just as a Fun Fact for everyone, I continued my "research" on this topic and I even found some more surprising data; As I described in my first post, I could only find official Data and Statistics for Tabletop Roleplaying Games and not for Virtual Tabletop Roleplaying Games. So I was wondering, how can I find data from VTT's? Well, I couldn't find "official" data, but what I did was a small data base were I took all the hosted campaigns I could find from the most popular VTT's that have this type of information public, and I separated them according to Languages used in the Campaigns. This is what I found:

Individual Data

English
87.72%

French
3.07%
German
2.19%
Russian
1.32%
Spanish
0.88%
Chinese
0.44%
Japanese
0.44%

Other Languages
3.95%

Cumulative Data

English
87.72%

All other Languages
12.28%

So, in conclusion.....
Even more embarrassing

PD. The database had more than 500 Campaigns

[dulux-oz]

Dulux-Oz, or anyone else; if you need some help with Spanish translations feel free to ask.

Oh no, you misunderstand - if people want I'll do up the framework and the instructions on how to do things, but the actual translation will be done by whoever wants to do it - I'm sorry, but I don't have the time nor the language skills to do translations - but I will help coordinate people if the Community wants to go ahead with this "project" (I am a professional ICT Project Manager, after all :) )

So, if people want I'll post a new thread and do up the framework - just give me a week to clear my current Extension rollouts.

Cheers

[Zacchaeus]

(I am a professional ICT Project Manager, after all :) )

I thought you were Australian :)

[damned]

I thought you were Australian :)

Are you suggesting that Australians cant be professional or questioning the claim of actually having any job at all?

[dulux-oz]

I thought you were Australian :)

And according to all the research Australians make the best Project Manager ("Best" being defined as: On Time, On Budget, & > 95% End User Satisfaction) :p

[Mellock]

I've seen Crocodile Dundee, I know what it's all about!

[Zacchaeus]

And according to all the research Australians make the best Project Manager ("Best" being defined as: On Time, On Budget, & > 95% End User Satisfaction) :p


Are you suggesting that Australians cant be professional or questioning the claim of actually having any job at all?

It's like poking a wasp's nest with a stick :)

[dulux-oz]

I've seen Crocodile Dundee, I know what it's all about!

Yeah, and I've seen plenty of WW2 movies, too :p

[dulux-oz]

It's like poking a wasp's nest with a stick :)

And when you poke a wasp's nest with a stick you'll often get stung - won't you :p

[drvolk]

Actually, its very easy for FG to be translated into other languages, especially since we made the move to v3.x. All it takes is for a native speaker to make a copy of the relevant "string" lua files, change the string resources contained in the "string" lua files to their non-English equivalents, and then package the new versions of the "string" lua files into an Extension which you then load like any other Extensions.

As i know FG currently is the only VTT system which allows a replacement of the textresource in such simple way as Dulux-Os describes.
But this functionality in my opinion is still very limited and in a draft status. You can only replace "static" texts e.g. labels in the charactersheet. Texts which will be created dynamicly like chat outputs from skill checks or attack rolls are "hard coded" english texts. Also some Lists like the skilllist in 3.5E will be created dynamicly from lua array key words, which are english.
The complete parsing and evaluating of textinformations for ruleset automations is done also with "hard coded" english texts.
And last not least some texts are rendered into bitmaps (the tab texts in the chactersheet, the texts in the sidebar icons).
So there is still a lot to do to get a fully localizable ruleset with FG ...


Furthermore, if a Community Extension (eg mine) follows the same "string" lua file format - and I don't know why the Community Devs wouldn't be following this practice - then the same process can be followed to change the Extensions languages.

I agree absolutly with you, that would be perfect!


In fact, if people want it and if they give me a few days I'll do up a Change-Languages-Extension Toolkit, to make it super easy for people - people just gotta ask! :)

As it was discussed allready in an other threat in my opinion it would be better if FG would manage "alternative textresources" in a more central way. For example there could be an option item with which you could set your "prefered language" for your campaign (stored in campaign regestry or global ?). Within the init process of FG the framework then should look for the existence of an alternative textresource for your prefered language (stored e.g in e "textresources" folder in the app data directory if FG) for each ruleset layer/extension and evaluate it if it exists (if not you still have your default string resource definitions).
To activate an extension for each ruleset layer and all extensions for each language creates too much overhead for just replacing textresources and the maintenance of them became very complicated ...

[dulux-oz]

Just about all of the messages etc that I've come across are in text-resources (yes, even dynamic chat outputs).

Yes, some are hard-coded, and yes, some are actually images or text.

And yes, I agree that a central language selection would be a great idea.

BUT

Someone's got to do the translations.

Extensions are the best way to go as of right now.

Any translations done for a Change-Language-Extension(s) will be useful for if/when a central language selection is implemented - because they'll have to be done eventually anyway.

CLEs will help us find the "hard coded" language bits.

A CLE can easily incorporate a graphic-resource change (ie an icon in a non-English language).

A CLE can also incorporate the "Skills List" and similar issues - its only another file that needs translating and incorporating - the lua keywords can be anything, its just got to be coded - again, a relatively easy thing to do if people are willing to put in some effort.

We'd still need to have some way of dealing with Extensions that have text-resources in English - there is no-way that SW can predetermine what is going to be needed.

As for the complexity, well, I heard the same argument when I proposed doing different Graphics for different Themes in my Extensions - and yet I going ahead with that and have worked out how to do it easily and simply and now cater for CoC, CnC, SW, 5E, 3.5E, 4E, PF, and Num - without much effort at all. For the others, well, I can drop them in very easily - I just need somebody to come up with the different graphics.

So, we have a choice: we can either all chip in and make do the best way we can with what we have available; or we can sit back, wish things were different, do nothing, and go with the status quo.

I know what I'd rather do :)

[damned]

As for the complexity, well, I heard the same argument when I proposed doing different Graphics for different Themes in my Extensions - and yet I going ahead with that and have worked out how to do it easily and simply and now cater for CoC, CnC, SW, 5E, 3.5E, 4E, PF, and Num....

i still think you're mad.

[dulux-oz]

i still think your mad.

Mad like a FOX!

There's a fine, fine line between genius and madness - one I cross several times a day - it's what makes me so simply awesome! :p


Edit: fixed up the word simple to be simply - damn auto-correct :(

[Nylanfs]

Can I agree on the simple part? :P

[dulux-oz]

Can I agree on the simple part? :P

No Paul, you cannot - see my edit (damn auto-correct :( ) - not unless you were referring to yourself?

[Phoxounet]

In fact, if people want it and if they give me a few days I'll do up a Change-Languages-Extension Toolkit, to make it super easy for people - people just gotta ask! :)

Cheers

I could make bloody chicken sacrifices, pray you all days and make a new religion in your name if you do this !!!! :p

[dulux-oz]

I could make bloody chicken sacrifices, pray you all days and make a new religion in your name if you do this !!!! :p

Let me say this before damned or Nylanfs or somebody else does: careful, I've already got a "healthy" ego - you go making me a god and I'll be insufferable.






And be damn good at it, too! :p

Seriously, keep an eye out - I'll set up a new Thread in the Extensions sub-forum of the Armory when I've got something ready

Cheers

[Phoxounet]

Seriously, keep an eye out - I'll set up a new Thread in the Extensions sub-forum of the Armory when I've got something ready

Cheers

Thanks ;) I'll do.

[whiteTiki]

Dulux-Oz, changing topic a bit here, what are your opinions on the PMIs PMbok? I'm actually considering on getting my PMP, any thoughts?

[Trenloe]

Dulux-Oz, changing topic a bit here, what are your opinions on the PMIs PMbok? I'm actually considering on getting my PMP, any thoughts?
Huge change of subject, nothing to do with this thread - please PM him. Thanks.

[whiteTiki]

Huge change of subject, nothing to do with this thread - please PM him. Thanks.

LOL, I guess you're right. sorry

[damned]

Huge change of subject, nothing to do with this thread - please PM him. Thanks.

cos no one else changed the topic in this thread!
ouch! who threw that?

[dulux-oz]

cos no one else changed the topic in this thread!
ouch! who threw that?

Did we change the topic, or just expanded it a bit?

No, you're right, we did change the topic, didn't we - abut to a related topic (Languages in the FG Engine to Languages in Extensions) - sorry about that, folks.

Oh, and damned, that was a boomerang - so you threw it! :p

[Trenloe]

cos no one else changed the topic in this thread!
Still discussing FG stuff is vaguely related. Asking a specific individual about their opinions on IT project management qualifications is not.

[LordEntrails]

In fact, if people want it and if they give me a few days I'll do up a Change-Languages-Extension Toolkit, to make it super easy for people - people just gotta ask! :)

Cheers

Incredibly generous and valuable offer Delux. I'd add to your rep, but apparently I've done that too recently to do so again.

[LordEntrails]

As for whiteTiki's original request, I'll vote for it. I'm a dumb American Barbarian and illiterate in anything but a bastardized version of the Queen's English and doubt I'll ever know another language, but I strongly support making the calendar more usable for other language speakers.

As for localizing FG, I strongly support this as well.

[Nylanfs]

What I want is integrated real-time Google Translate integration so we can all play in our native language with everyone else. :)