New to FG and PNP games in general

[jseymour84]

Hey everyone,

I am fairly new to pen and paper RPGs and FG in general, with the exception of dabbling with AD&D back in the day. I have a project I want to work on this winter, and that is to run a political intrigue game for a group of friends. It will be set in present day America, and the overall goal is to prevent a nuclear attack on the country (think Jericho tv show), find out who organized the attack, and bring them to justice. I anticipate the game running for 8-10 game sessions.

I haven't settled on a rule set yet. I am prepared to put the work in to writing the adventures and all that stuff, but I don't really know where to start. Is this a type of game that I just grab FG and CoreRPG rule set and start customizing stuff to fit, or is there a better way to go about this? If I was running this on the table, I'd probably look at Gurps Lite as my rule set (being free and simple) and just creating custom classes, items, and settings.

Any advice would be helpful - I'll be downloading the free version of FG tomorrow after work to play around with it, but am fairly excited to finally be getting a game underway. Living in rural Wisconsin makes it hard to find gamers without having to drive for a few hours for a session, so I am hoping that FG will let me bring a good size group (5-6 players) together online.

Thanks in advance!

[Nylanfs]

Welcome to the community! If you are newish to PNP and your only experience is AD&D I would REALLY suggest NOT using GURPS (any flavor). I would go with FATE or Savage Worlds which allows more freeform storytelling.

[seycyrus]

... If I was running this on the table, I'd probably look at Gurps Lite as my rule set (being free and simple) and just creating custom classes, items, and settings...

Have you played Gurps at all?

You are very ambitious! Especially for someone who hasn't played anything in years (decades?). What has motivated you, if you don't mind me asking? Are you a writer, perhaps?

[jseymour84]

Have you played Gurps at all?

You are very ambitious! Especially for someone who hasn't played anything in years (decades?). What has motivated you, if you don't mind me asking? Are you a writer, perhaps?

Only two decades since my last pen and paper game :D. I have played quite a few computer RPGs but want to get back to more storytelling and writing than playing around with games other people wrote. I do like to write, and I like to tell stories so I figured a game like this would be a good creative outlet. I haven't played any other system other than AD&D, but the reason why I was leaning towards GURPS was that it wasn't tied to a specific setting. I'll look into Fate and Savage Worlds to see if those systems could be customized to fit my setting.

[Nylanfs]

GURPS is very rules intensive.

[Mask_of_winter]

I recommend GUMSHOE. https://pelgranepress.com/index.php/the-gumshoe-system-reference-document/
The Esoterrorists is probably a good setting to look into to learn the rules.

And being a Savage Worlds fanboy, yes. $10 for the core rules and a quick start document here: https://www.peginc.com/freebies/SWcore/TD06.pdf

[damned]

Welcome jseymour84!

Id suggest you start with a $4/month sub because the free version wont save anything at the end of your session...
Any work you do, any data you input, any character sheets you make... they will all be gone when you finish the session on a demo license.

I would certainly look at CoreRPG and if Combat plays a role add the MoreCore extension.
Savage Worlds has support for so many different genres.
Im not familiar with GURPs despite it being my first taste of Fantasy Grounds
FATE could very well work for your setting.
PbtA would also be good (use CoreRPG for now)
and lastly check out Extinction Event in the Wiki - it could be perfect for your game

One comment - political intrigue and subterfuge can be hard to pull off via a VTT. That type of game really needs the players really actively turned on and participating. The VTT sadly does afford your players the ability to get distracted at times... Id aim for short sessions and direct questions to the more quiet/reserved players to keep drawing them in.

Oh - and ask questions and get answers!

And sign up for a couple of games at FG Con. There are some awesome Savage Worlds games being played and Ive got a Dungeon World session using CoreRPG and MoreCore. This could give you some good ideas of how you might use either ruleset and how to use FG in general.

And FG Con is free - demo licenses welcome.

[jseymour84]

One comment - political intrigue and subterfuge can be hard to pull off via a VTT. That type of game really needs the players really actively turned on and participating. The VTT sadly does afford your players the ability to get distracted at times... Id aim for short sessions and direct questions to the more quiet/reserved players to keep drawing them in.


I thought about this as well, so I might run a more action oriented game with a 2:1 ratio of combat encounters vs. non-combat encounters. I still think the backdrop of thwarting a nuclear attack would provide some really good story opportunities, and would allow my players to choose to play the attackers or the defenders, which could provide for some interesting challenges for me if my players choose to play the aggressors.



Id suggest you start with a $4/month sub because the free version wont save anything at the end of your session...
Any work you do, any data you input, any character sheets you make... they will all be gone when you finish the session on a demo license.


I was planning on tinkering with the free license just to get a feel for things and see what is possible, but ultimately, I was looking at the Ultimate subscription because I don't want to make the couple real life friends I have pay $35 for their own license.



And sign up for a couple of games at FG Con. There are some awesome Savage Worlds games being played and Ive got a Dungeon World session using CoreRPG and MoreCore. This could give you some good ideas of how you might use either ruleset and how to use FG in general.

And FG Con is free - demo licenses welcome.


I'll see if I can swing my schedule to make this work. Do I need to know how to play Savage Worlds first or will there be some tutorial type games going that I can learn on?

[Valarian]

I recommend GUMSHOE. https://pelgranepress.com/index.php/the-gumshoe-system-reference-document/
The Esoterrorists is probably a good setting to look into to learn the rules.
And being a Savage Worlds fanboy, yes. $10 for the core rules and a quick start document here: https://www.peginc.com/freebies/SWcore/TD06.pdf
I would suggest Gumshoe for this type of setting as well. The SRD is here (https://www.pelgranepress.com/?p=13319) but I'd suggest Night's Black Agents or Esoterrorists for the rulebook. Night's Black Agents if the PCs will be intelligence agents (e.g. CIA, NSA), Esoterrorists if they'll be law enforcement (e.g. FBI).

For Fantasy Grounds, there's Trail of Cthulhu and Night's Black Agents (character sheet only for this one) rulesets linked in the wiki.

[damned]

I thought about this as well, so I might run a more action oriented game with a 2:1 ratio of combat encounters vs. non-combat encounters. I still think the backdrop of thwarting a nuclear attack would provide some really good story opportunities, and would allow my players to choose to play the attackers or the defenders, which could provide for some interesting challenges for me if my players choose to play the aggressors.

Oh no - I dont mean you have to skew things so heavily in combats favour! Absolutely go for your intrigue but be prepared to drop a few extra clues here and there - more like the GUMSHOE style (as Valarian and Mask_of_winter suggest) and prep your players - inform them they will need to involve themselves actively to get the most out of the game.


I was planning on tinkering with the free license just to get a feel for things and see what is possible, but ultimately, I was looking at the Ultimate subscription because I don't want to make the couple real life friends I have pay $35 for their own license.

The FREE is limited only in the following ways:
1. Only accepts 1 player connection
2. Will not save any data at the end of the session
3. You cant use some official purchased modules with a free account - wiki ones work and included ones work

I was suggesting the $4 if you were going to be testing and inputting data and comparing rulesets so that you can save you work.



I'll see if I can swing my schedule to make this work. Do I need to know how to play Savage Worlds first or will there be some tutorial type games going that I can learn on?

Games run at most times of day and night for 2.5 days :) Most of the GMs will accommodate players new to the system and to Fantasy Grounds. Savage Worlds is easy enough to pick up - and they call it Fast Furious Fun because it is a pretty streamlined system.

[jseymour84]

Oh no - I dont mean you have to skew things so heavily in combats favour! Absolutely go for your intrigue but be prepared to drop a few extra clues here and there - more like the GUMSHOE style (as Valarian and Mask_of_winter suggest) and prep your players - inform them they will need to involve themselves actively to get the most out of the game.



The FREE is limited only in the following ways:
1. Only accepts 1 player connection
2. Will not save any data at the end of the session
3. You cant use some official purchased modules with a free account - wiki ones work and included ones work

I was suggesting the $4 if you were going to be testing and inputting data and comparing rulesets so that you can save you work.




Games run at most times of day and night for 2.5 days :) Most of the GMs will accommodate players new to the system and to Fantasy Grounds. Savage Worlds is easy enough to pick up - and they call it Fast Furious Fun because it is a pretty streamlined system.

Great :) I do prefer games where the players have to work a bit harder than just rolling dice, which is why I never really got deep into the D&D universe since the rules were so heavily titled towards combat encounters. If I wanted to play a hack and slash game, there are plenty of computer games that do that already.

My short list of rule sets right now is GUMSHOE and Savage Worlds so its off to find quick start guides for both systems and check them out. Is writing custom adventures and settings in FG something that is hard to do or is that a fairly easy process?

[Mask_of_winter]

Great :) I do prefer games where the players have to work a bit harder than just rolling dice, which is why I never really got deep into the D&D universe since the rules were so heavily titled towards combat encounters. If I wanted to play a hack and slash game, there are plenty of computer games that do that already.

My short list of rule sets right now is GUMSHOE and Savage Worlds so its off to find quick start guides for both systems and check them out. Is writing custom adventures and settings in FG something that is hard to do or is that a fairly easy process?
I shared a link to the SW quick start guide above. For GUMSHOE there's this: https://www.pelgranepress.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/gumshoe-101-for-players-and-gms.pdf
And yes it's easy to create your own material using Story, Images, Items and what not. Just have to type away.

[jseymour84]

Great! Thanks for all of the help everyone. Now off to the hard, but fun, part of this project - writing the story and preparing the encounters. I think I will try GUMSHOE first, and then if that doesn't feel like I want it to, convert over to Savage Worlds.

Quick question - is there a GUMSHOE rule set that handles allowing players to spend points from their pools or should I plan on developing a rule set in addition to the other modules I will need? I know that I basically want to create all the general and investigative abilities from scratch to really customize my setting. I saw in the Wiki that there is a Night Agents character sheet available too. I think when I get home from work today I will start looking around for other GUMSHOE resources to try and figure out where to start this project.

[Valarian]

Trail of Cthulhu is probably the best. Let me know what system/setting you are going to use. I've got an extension for Night's Black Agents for that ruleset and i'm planning on others. Should just be a case of swapping out skills.

[jseymour84]

My entire knowledge of GUMSHOE consists of the three page document linked earlier by Mask_of_winter. So I am not sure how to answer the system question. My setting is going to be present day America, mostly urban environments with a few rural settings added in. I want the feel to be similar to an NCIS type show, where you have characters that are strong in combat, others that are strong investigators, and access to very cool high tech tools like surveillance satellites, computer hacking, forensic accounting, and of course, shady informants, bribes, and underground deals. I'll work on a list of skills and such over the weekend and post that too.

The player characters are all going to be members of the same agency, with different specialties, instead of the multiple types (agent, analyst, journalist) that I earlier wanted. I figure it would be easier to explain why the player characters are all working together if they are of the same agency (at worst, because your boss told you to do it). Each session is going to be a fast paced adventure that fits into the bigger plot picture and slowly builds to the final confrontation with the bad guy after ten sessions or so. My goal is to be able to develop this into something I can package and post in the community section and have other people actually want to play it as well as myself and my group, but that is a big goal for a first timer.

[Valarian]

There's a full SRD in PDF form available from an earlier link. This goes beyond the Gumshoe 101 document, which is an introduction to the concept for GMs and Players. This gives you the base. If you're using a custom skill set then I can help with tailoring the Trail of Cthulhu ruleset to fit this. Esoterrorists or Night's Black Agents as published books fit most closely with your concept (NCIS / Homeland / X-Files).

Gumshoe SRD PDF (Creative Commons) (https://www.pelgranepress.com/GUMSHOE/files/GUMSHOE%20SRD%20CC%20version.pdf)

The Night's Black Agents conspyramid structure may help you plot your big bad guy and their organisation.
https://www.pelgranepress.com/files/conspyramid.pdf

Sample adventure layout:
https://www.pelgranepress.com/files/Scenes_and_events_The_Zalozhniy_Sanction.png

[jseymour84]

There's a full SRD in PDF form available from an earlier link. This goes beyond the Gumshoe 101 document, which is an introduction to the concept for GMs and Players. This gives you the base. If you're using a custom skill set then I can help with tailoring the Trail of Cthulhu ruleset to fit this. Esoterrorists or Night's Black Agents as published books fit most closely with your concept (NCIS / Homeland / X-Files).

Gumshoe SRD PDF (Creative Commons) (https://www.pelgranepress.com/GUMSHOE/files/GUMSHOE%20SRD%20CC%20version.pdf)

The Night's Black Agents conspyramid structure may help you plot your big bad guy and their organisation.
https://www.pelgranepress.com/files/conspyramid.pdf

Sample adventure layout:
https://www.pelgranepress.com/files/Scenes_and_events_The_Zalozhniy_Sanction.png

Awesome! Thanks much for the links :)

[Crymoricus]

Great :) I do prefer games where the players have to work a bit harder than just rolling dice, which is why I never really got deep into the D&D universe since the rules were so heavily titled towards combat encounters. If I wanted to play a hack and slash game, there are plenty of computer games that do that already.

A man after my own heart.

I personally love this concept from Gumshoe:


... all you need to do is tell the GM that you’re using an appropriate ability and you’ll automatically get the clue if there is one. Yes, automatically, no roll required. The fun here is in what you do with that information, not how you get it.

I'm working on something right now in Savage Worlds that takes this idea and spins it a bit. All of the necessary clues to be discovered require nothing but an ability to pay attention. Any "extra" information (shortcuts to solving the mystery) can be gained through various skill rolls (Streetwise, Persuasion, Investigation, etc), and even through a successful combat encounter. I believe this should be a happy medium between making things too hard (or even impossible), and handing the players everything on a silver platter to the point that they feel disengaged. I also have a conclusion prepared in the case of an utter failure on the part of the players to solve the mystery in time.

Honestly, using that principle, you could create a good mystery in any ruleset, in any setting. The trick is to make the freely given (necessary) clues seem no more or less important than the "extra" clues (that are rolled for). By the end of the session, the difference between the two types should feel seamless, and the player left with the idea that his decisions and rolls were a strong contributing factor to reaching the conclusion.

With Gumshoe alone, it seems like all clues are pretty much freely given. This puts a huge burden on you to make a mystery narratively very complex. In other words, you must create an elaborate maze of plot-points for your players to navigate in order for them to feel engaged, otherwise you end up with a scenario that feels too much like telling the players a simple story that they are only superficially involved in. I've read two reviews and watched a video review on YouTube that make this complaint about the system.

The way I'm doing it, the maze doesn't have to be so complex. Instead, you can simply create many paths to the same end, some more "highlighted" than others.

Also, a simple story well-told beats a drawn-out cerebral headache any day -- especially if you're the one telling the story.

[Mask_of_winter]

A man after my own heart.

I personally love this concept from Gumshoe:



I'm working on something right now in Savage Worlds that takes this idea and spins it a bit. All of the necessary clues to be discovered require nothing but an ability to pay attention. Any "extra" information (shortcuts to solving the mystery) can be gained through various skill rolls (Streetwise, Persuasion, Investigation, etc), and even through a successful combat encounter. I believe this should be a happy medium between making things too hard (or even impossible), and handing the players everything on a silver platter to the point that they feel disengaged. I also have a conclusion prepared in the case of an utter failure on the part of the players to solve the mystery in time.

Honestly, using that principle, you could create a good mystery in any ruleset, in any setting. The trick is to make the freely given (necessary) clues seem no more or less important than the "extra" clues (that are rolled for). By the end of the session, the difference between the two types should feel seamless, and the player left with the idea that his decisions and rolls were a strong contributing factor to reaching the conclusion.

With Gumshoe alone, it seems like all clues are pretty much freely given. This puts a huge burden on you to make a mystery narratively very complex. In other words, you must create an elaborate maze of plot-points for your players to navigate in order for them to feel engaged, otherwise you end up with a scenario that feels too much like telling the players a simple story that they are only superficially involved in. I've read two reviews and watched a video review on YouTube that make this complaint about the system.

The way I'm doing it, the maze doesn't have to be so complex. Instead, you can simply create many paths to the same end, some more "highlighted" than others.

Also, a simple story well-told beats a drawn-out cerebral headache any day -- especially if you're the one telling the story.

Keep in mind only CORE clues are given without a roll and only if the player happens to be asking the right questions about the scene or if it's in plain sight.

What is a core clue exactly? Imagine you're in a dungeon and the final climatic encounter is behind a secret door. In a way, the GM or whoever designed this take for granted that the players will ask to make a spot hidden check or rely on passive perception, etc. Or the PCs will head back to town, run around in circles for a while, the GM will pull his hair out thinking the players are idiot for not thinking about looking for a secret door, and finally they'll head back to the dungeon, try a couple things and finally the GM will drop more hints and clues to nudge them in the right direction. All this time wasted! You could call that bad design/GMing but we've all done it or had it happen to us before. In GUMSHOE, the GM will not wait for the player to investigate this, he/she will the player: "You have a point in Architecture, right? Well, you've been wandering in this dungeon for a few hours now and something tells you there should be another room on the other side of that wall." All of sudden everybody is scrambling to find the switch. Turns out it isn't simply a button you push but it's a puzzle (combination). Things got a lot more interesting. You didn't hand them anything on silver platter. They still have to figure out how to open this thing! Everybody is engaged and you made the architect/investigator feel like a bad ***. And you had everything moving at a fun pace.

What isn't a CORE clue? Another hidden room in the same dungeon, but in this room is the combination to the other door that leads to the core clue or a hidden stash of weapons that the baddie in the other room is weak to. In this case the GM asks the player with Architecture skill:"Ya know, if you spend one point from your Architecture pool I'll reveal a clue to you." The player only has one point left. What to do, what to do?

I've somewhat adapted this philosophy to my Savage Worlds games. It was inspired by a setting rule in Deadlands Noir. Basically, a failed investigation attempt of any kind (notice, investigation, streetwise, etc.) doesn't mean you don't get the clue. It means things got complicated.
-It took you longer to find the clue so there will be more resistance in the next scene
-You were careless while asking around, now the bad guys know you've been inquiring about them around town
-You spotted the hidden lever but in your hurry to get to it you set off the trap right in front of it

It's important to let the players know you're using this houserule. It will help them make a decision when it's time to spend a benny on their roll or not. In my experience, they still spend the benny because they know how nasty my complications can be :) hehe

[Crymoricus]

Very cool approach, and great food for thought. Thanks, Mask.

I will say, though, that this:


"You have a point in Architecture, right? Well, you've been wandering in this dungeon for a few hours now and something tells you there should be another room on the other side of that wall" ... You didn't hand them anything on a silver platter.

Does not equate in my mind, and does still feel like a bandaid for this:


...bad design/GMing...

But, like you say:


...we've all done it or had it happen to us before...