ACTIONS, SPELLS AND EFFECTS ARE DRIVING ME CRAZY! – Part 2 – Effect Syntax Questions

[whiteTiki]

Hi there everyone, I've been a user of FG for about a month now. I've already managed to run my sessions as DM with absolutely no big problems. I've purchased all the core books available (PHB and MM) and some adventure books. I do have some few complaints about the system and how it Works, especially after having purchased all that content plus an ultimate subscription but that's for another thread.

I created this thread because I really need help with the effects; I've been reading a lot about the effects, I've watched videos, read threads, and even the official stuff about effects and conditions. I have basic programing skills in Java and C++ so please don't post answers to my problems with things like "Have you tried this button?" "Did you know there's an option that bla bla?" This thread is about effects and specifically about syntax when creating effects in the ACTIONS TAB and other Abilities and Spell related questions, so my problems here at to certain point, are about more advanced stuff tan just switching an option on or off or dragging an icon to the combat tracker, etc.

So, now that we've covered that up, next is some background: Recently I've been trying to make my players have all their spells with an effect programed on it (when it applies). Currently I have a Paladin, a Sorcerer and a Cleric and I'm going crazy cause I really thought that after I've purchased some original content I would find ALL the spells in a way I could just drag and drop them.... but that's not the case, I've found myself practically adding effects to almost ALL the spells my players use, as if there was no work done behind it, but those complaints are also for another thread. So here we go:

++EFFECT SYNTAX QUESTIONS

1.- Are there any “Conditions”, “Modifiers”, “Special Components” or “Conditional Operators” mentioned here https://www.fantasygrounds.com/wiki/index.php/5E_Effects that are not really supported for the 5E? (I know this official site says it’s for the 5E, but I’m still asking) Why am I asking this? Because I have completely copied the text of some “effects” into my action or spell and it doesn’t work. I don’t really have problems with any of the “Conditions” or the “Modifiers” but the “Special Components” and the “Conditional Operators” are just not working.

2.- Related to my previous question, here are some of my “effects” for some spells or special powers or actions that WORK PERFECTLY:
Aura of Protection; SAVE: 3
Ancestry Resistance; RESIST: cold
Vow of Emmity; ADVATK
Protection; GRANTDISATK
Bane; ATK: -1d4; SAVE: -1d4
Heroism; IMMUNE: frightened; REGEN [CHA]
Magic Weapon; ATK: 1; DMG: 1; DMGTYPE magic

All that is great and functioning perfectly but then it comes to the part where I have to use a “Special Components” or “Conditional Operators” and it just won’t work. EVEN when I copy and paste the exact same syntax from some of the “Specific DMG Magic Item Examples” section from the page mentioned above. Which it’s supposed to be the official “working” page. Let’s have my Divine Smite for example:

I’ve tried this:
Divine Smite; DMG:3D8 radiant; IFT: TYPE(fiend); DMG: 4d8 radiant; IFT: TYPE(undead); DMG: 4d8 radiant

This:
Divine Smite; IFT: TYPE(fiend); DMG: 4d8 radiant; IFT: TYPE(undead); DMG: 4d8 radiant; DMG:3D8 radiant

This:
Divine Smite; DMG:3D8 radiant; IF: TYPE(fiend); DMG: 4d8 radiant; IF: TYPE(undead); DMG: 4d8 radiant

This:
IFT: TYPE(fiend); DMG: 4d8 radiant; IFT: TYPE(undead); DMG: 4d8 radiant

This:
IF: TYPE(fiend); DMG: 4d8 radiant; IF: TYPE(undead); DMG: 4d8 radiant

This just as one “example” on the page:
IFT: TYPE(fiend); DMG: 4d8 radiant
IFT: TYPE(undead); DMG: 4d8 radiant

This:
IF: TYPE(fiend); DMG: 4d8 radiant
IF: TYPE(undead); DMG: 4d8 radiant

This:
IF: TYPE(undead); DMG: 4d8 radiant

This:
IFT: TYPE(undead); DMG: 4d8 radiant

And I’ve tried a lot of stuff more, such as leaving spaces after the words “TYPE” or other stuff.
Nothing seems to work, not even the “official” examples listed on the page. This is crazy. If someone wants to help I’ll be grateful. I’m 99% sure I’m doing something wrong, and It mast have to be with the specific legends under the “Special Components” section that says: “Unique format for each tag” and “Case-Sensitive”. Also there’s a legend in the “Specific DMG Magic Item Examples” section that says “Both effects in separate effect entries”, does this means you cannot mix an “IF” with some other stuff? Do I have to do like tons of effects for each “IF” that I have?

3.- Then there’s this “Dragonguard” Breastplate item someone found on the Lost Mine of Phanadelver. It’s supposed to give you resistance to all “breaths” from dragons. So this is supposed to be a “permanent” that applies when you have the armor, so the syntax went like this:
Breath Resistance; IF: TYPE(dragon); RESIST: fire, lightning, poison, cold, acid
And I also tried several changes such as the ones I showed you with the “Divine Smite” and nothing happened. Can anyone help me with this?

Thanks a lot.

[Trenloe]

1) Please can you provide specific details of where examples from the 5E effects page aren't working? It would be best to provide screenshots of the combat tracker and chat window to show full info, like I have below.

2) IFT: TYPE(fiend); DMG: 4d8 radiant works fine for me:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/39085830/Screenshots/Fantasy%20Grounds/5E/5E%20Conditional%20Effect.jpg

1) The conditional damage doesn't trigger as a Giant Octopus is type = beast
2) The damage does trigger because the creature type = fiend

How were you testing your conditional effects?

Remember that IFT refers to (IF Target of the action has the relevant condition/type - this applies to the creature attacking the owner of the effect or the creature being attacked by the owner of the effect) and IF refers to if the initiator of the action has the condition/type (this only ever applies to the owner of the effect).

Therefore, your example in 3 is incorrect because IF: TYPE(dragon)... is referring to the creature the effect is placed on. Change this to IFT: TYPE(dragon)... and then roll some damage from a dragon with one of those energy types and see if it works. However, you will never get this to be 100% automated as it's possible for a dragon to do fire damage but not from it's breath (it's an extreme case, I know, but it is possible).

You can see the IFT: TYPE(dragon); RESIST: fire, lightning, poison, cold, acid working below when fire damage from a creature of type dragon was applied to the creature with the conditional effect:

1) The fire damage from a dragon is resisted.
2) The fire damage from a hell hound isn't resisted.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/39085830/Screenshots/Fantasy%20Grounds/5E/5E%20Conditional%20Effect%202.jpg

[limpinjezus]

Going to ask an obvious question, when trying the IFT statements, do you actually have a target of those types targeted in the combat tracker?

[whiteTiki]

Yep, target and I've carefuly chosen that it meets the "TYPE" requirement so that I can see if its working or not... etc.

I've been trying to get around this, as far as I can understand I need to make several "IFT" effects. One for each condition. But that will really make me have a lot of Effects for a single spell. Is there another way around it?

[limpinjezus]

IF and IFT will only evaluate the first condition if it evaluates false. As an example of Divine Smite, what about this?

10927

You will have to manually delete the effects that do not evaluate true as they will not expend when rolling the DMG.

[whiteTiki]

Thanks a lot. That pretty much resolves the problems. Although there are a bunch of effects, its certainly better than having duplicates

[Trenloe]

My own post (#2 above) needed moderating. Hopefully the screenshots and explanations helped.

[whiteTiki]

Trenloe you made it! I followed your images and it worked, also the ones from LimpinJ worked, I guess the problem was that all the time I was trying to insert 2 "IFT" commands on the same effect, that’s why it wasn't working. For Divine Smite I ended up with:

Divine Smite; IFT: TYPE(fiend, undead); DMG: 3d8 radiant

And it Works pretty well.


++NOW HERE COMES A BIG QUESTION:++

I have a Sorcerer who chose the Wild Magic thingy. So, there's some stuff where the Sorcerer must roll a d20 each time he casts a spell, in the case of a 1 (critical fail) he needs to roll on some "Wild Magic Surge" Table. So here's what I did; I created a New table for a d20 which had all the numbers except the number 1 labeled "You're OK!", on the other hand, the number 1 was labeled [Wild Magic Surge] (so it will auto-roll on the Wild Magic Surge table). My intention hear is to incorporate this recently created table (which we’ll call “Prev to Wild Magic” table) to an effect, but then I realized that if I wanted some kind of "Permanent Passive Effect" always acting on my sorcerer's actions I would have to take into account that he uses a crossbow or some daggers every once in a while which ARE NOT Spells so he shouldn't be Rolling the "Prev to Wild Magic" table all the time.

After three weeks of analyzing him, I gathered some data and found out that my sorcerer uses his crossbow or some other weapon 1/4 of all the actions he takes during a session, so that means he uses weapons 25% of the time and spells 75% of the time. Now, taking into consideration the “Prev to Wild Magic” table, the chance of getting a #1 to re-roll on the "Wild Magic Surge" Table is 1/20 = 5%. If we mix this 5% chance from the table with the 75% time he’s casting spells I get a 3.75%. I realized that I get this same chance if I had a d27 (which can exist for purposes of table rolling). So I modified the “Prev to Wild Magic” so it will roll a d20 and a d8 and add them up (up to 28, but it counts as 27 cause you can never get a result of 1 because there are 2 dice). So now I have this perfect table which he agreed on rolling each action but I need to incorporate it to an effect! I want to create this permanent effect that rolls on this table each action.

IS THAT EVEN POSSIBLE?

Thanks for everyone’s help.

[limpinjezus]

Divine Smite; IFT: TYPE(fiend, undead); DMG: 3d8 radiant


Good call. I didn't even think about multiple arguments in one TYPE.

[whiteTiki]

Yep, that way the effect goes away if just one of those "TYPES" applies, so you don't have to manually delete the one that remained.

[jshauber]

I have never seen a table as part of an effect. I know there are extensions/modules for critical/fumble effects that can be triggered based on a 20/1 being rolled for an attack. It will then auto-roll on the table and give the GM the results to be applied.

If you figure it out and make it work, I think there will be a bunch of us interested in seeing how you did it.

Kudos for thinking outside the box on this one.!!!

[TASagent]

WhiteTiki, there are some issues with your strategy of rolling on the table. 1d27 is not at all the same as 1d20 + 1d8 - 1. Getting a 1 on 1d20 + 1d8 - 1 only occurs once in 160 rolls, not once in 27 rolls like you want. (Dropping the -1 from here on out for clarity) With 1d20 + 1d8 there is only one way to roll a 2 [1,1], but there are 8 ways to roll an 11 ([1,10], [2,9], [3,8], [4,7], [5,6], [6,5], [7,4], [8,3]). There are actually 8 ways to roll all numbers between 9 and 21, making each individual number in that range 8 times more likely than rolling a 2 or a 28. In other words, in a sample of 160 rolls, you should expect 2 to show up once, 27 should show up once, 9 should show up 8 times, 10 should show up 8 times, etc. I'm quite sure that's not the statistical distribution you want.

If you actually want to replicate the functionality to described, you might have more success nesting the 1d20 rolling table as one of the results of a 1d8 rolling table. This separates the outcomes and doesn't muddle your states.

Additionally: You actually want him rolling on the wild magic surge table when he's just attacking with his crossbow? Even though you've adjusted the probability of it going off, 25% of his surges will still trigger when he's attacking with his crossbow.

This part is more DM preference, but I personally wouldn't have my game's wildmage roll to see if he rolls on the table every time he casts a spell. I feel that sometimes it's appropriate to do so, and others it is less. As a result, I would personally want to err on the side of caution and not have him rolling on the wild magic table without my wanting him to. It becomes especially annoying if he rolls a result he might want on the table at a time when I wouldn't have asked him to roll on it at all. But you may not take the same approach, so this part may not really apply to you.

Regarding your direct question: I do not believe there is a way to make an effect automatically roll on a table.

[TASagent]

Incidentally, 1d20 + 1d8 == 7 actually represents the 3.75% probability you were looking for.

[whiteTiki]

TASagent:

1.- You're completely right about the calculations. I missed that. Thanks for the help.

2.- As for the “rolling each action” thing, I definitely not want my character to be rolling this manually each action he takes, so I’ll only implement it if I can get it to roll automatically through an effect or something. Personally I don’t really need for it to be rolled only when I (DM) ask for, we kinda like all this “randomness” happening all the time during our sessions so it’s ok in our case.

[Zacchaeus]

The answer to your original question is no, you can't attach a table to an effect. You can however attach a table to a shortcut, so you could use that to make the roll whenever it was needed.

[TASagent]

whiteTiki:

Using 26-40 on a 2d20 roll will give you a 30% chance, not a 3.75% chance. There are 120 combinations out of a total of 400 that give you those results. This should be somewhat intuitive because it's a bit less than the half-way point, 21, and just a bit less than 50:50 odds.

Like I'd mentioned previously, if you wanted 3.75%, you can use 1d8 + 1d20 == 7, or (much more sensibly) you can have a 1d4 table where 1 does nothing and 2 through 4 roll the 1d20 table, and a 1 on that table rolls on the magic surge table.

> As for the “rolling each action” thing, I definitely not want my character to be rolling this manually each action he takes

I wasn't talking about the character roll this manually every turn. I expressed concern that you may not even want to do the *.75 scaling you've done on the probability. You expressed that you wanted to decrease the occurrence of surges by 25% to account for how often the player attack with his crossbow, but that will only make things balance in the aggregate. If you do this, then 3.75% of his spell attack will be surges, but 3.75% of this crossbow attacks will be too. On average the total number of surges he has will be equal to 5% of the number of times he cast a spell, but that doesn't stop 3.75% of his crossbow attack from triggering a surge. I wanted to verify that you understand this.

It remains true that the effect probably can't trigger a roll on the table. Probably your best bet is to have the player connect an F-key to the 1d20 rolling table. F1, let's say. Then, when he casts a spell (and/or you want him to) he just presses F1 and that rolls (recursively) on the table(s).

[whiteTiki]

TASagent:

Ok I get it. So for what I understand about the 3.75%+3.75% adding of course 7.5% not the 5% I wanted, it’s simply better to use one of this 2 options, now that I can’t link an effect to a table and my calculations were wrong anyways:

Option 1: Make de d20 table so that in case of a 1 it rolls on the Wild Magic Surge and manually ask him every once in a while to roll on that table.
Option 2: Simply ignore the first d20 table and go straight for the Wild Magic Surge every once in a while

which of course were the options you were talking about.

Thanks!

[TASagent]

Getting closer :-)

I share this because you seem to be genuinely interested in understanding the math behind it, not because I get inordinately excited about correcting the use of mathematics. If you really don't care, let me know and I'll drop it altogether.

> Ok I get it. So for what I understand about the 3.75%+3.75% adding of course 7.5% not the 5% I wanted, it’s simply better to use one of this 2 options, now that I can’t link an effect to a table and my calculations were wrong anyways:

Actually, the problem wasn't that 3.75% + 3.75% = 5%. In this case, 3.75% + 3.75% = 5%. "But how can that be?", you might wonder. Well, you're talking about different things.

If X = the number of spells you cast, and Y = the number of other actions you take, then Z = X + Y is the total number of actions you take.

You tuned the equations such that 3.75% of all of the actions you take result in the proper number of surges. The proper number of surges is 5% of your spells cast. Thus 3.75% * Z = 5% * X. That is, if 5% of your spells are surges, and spells constitute 75% of your actions, then 3.75% of all of your actions should cause a surge. That statement is true. The problem is then expanding that to say "so I should just make 3.75% of all actions cause a spell surge". That would be equivalent to 3.75% of your Non-spell actions causing surges, as well as 3.75% of your spell actions. On the whole, that will still give you the same number of surges, but the problem is that you've moved 1/4 of those surges to happen as a result of a non-spell action. This is equivalent to saying "If half of all people are women, and women make $1.00 less than men, we can correct this problem by giving everyone $0.50." Overall, the expenditure is correct, but it's going to the wrong places.

Yeah, I think the best option is to have him roll on your d20 table when he casts a spell. Plus a roll on the wild magic surge table when you want.

Rules As Written, he is just supposed to roll a d20 to check for surges only when he casts a spell of first level or above *and* you ask him to. In other words, the rules suggest you may not even ask him to roll every time he casts a non-cantrip, and that typically you wouldn't have him check when casting a cantrip. Additionally, after using the Tides of Chaos, you can have him roll straight on the surge table *after using a spell of 1st level or above*. Obviously, though, you're the DM and it's all up to you, however it does sound like you're inclined to have him roll on the surge precursor table considerably more often than the book suggests.

[Crymoricus]

Wow, you got some great help here on this one. Sounds like you're the kind of guy who might actually end up coming up with some very slick ideas for effects, too. I do have one question for you, though:

Did you try this button?

https://itsfunny.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Do-not-push-button.jpg

[Morik]

A note on Dragonguard: I think it only gives Advantage on Saves vs breath weapons from creatures with the dragon Type. What was written above gives Resistance to their elemental damage. How would you write the Save Advantage from Dragonguard?

[Zacchaeus]

I don't know what Dragonguard is but you can't set up an effect which would recognise breath weapon as the source. FG only recognises damage types rather than the source; in other words it knows 'slashing' but not that the source is a sword. The TYPE keyword looks at the creature type, not what type of attack is coming in. You would have to set up the effect to resist the elemental damage type. RESIST on it's own would resist all damage types, but you can specify a number of damage types separated by a comma thus IFT: TYPE(dragon); RESIST: acid, fire, lightning etc.

EDIT: Actually reading your post again you say that there is an advantage to the save rather than resistance to the damage. This is actually much more complicated because if you set up an advantage to say dexterity then you would get advantage on all dexterity checks forced on the player by the dragon; for example against Wing attacks, as well as breath weapons. I suspect therefore that this is one of those where the player is just going to have to use the ADV button just before the dragon breathes on him.

EDIT EDIT: Actually my original idea would also have problems since some dragons deal elemental damage from sources other than their breath weapon eg a red dragon's bite also does fire damage and there would not be a save against it. So scrap all that. :)

[Morik]

Dragonguard is a breastplate found in The Lost Mine of Phandelver.

Here's what we did with it: Set up an Action - anytime the wearer takes Damage from anything with the dragon Type, it just reminds us in the chat window to go back and apply Advantage to the Save if needed. Nothing fancy, but it does the trick.

[Zacchaeus]

Ok, I found it. In that case what I would do would be to just set up an effect ADVSAV: and have it expire on the next roll. Apply the effect to the player just before the dragon breathes. Or, just have the player click the ADV button just before the dragon breathes. Having to go back and redo stuff can be really messy so it's better to try and do whatever is needed at the right time. Granted something like this isn't going to come up that often unless your campaign is made up of end to end dragon fights :)

[Morik]

We're continuing our old Tyranny of Dragons campaign. Everyone moved away, so Fantasy Grounds has been a real blessing for us :)

So, there's a dragon or two in the first book. Maybe a few in the second book. Not sure how many there are once it reaches the Well of Dragons.

[phorhed]

I really appreciate finding this thread guys...just thought I would add my 2 cents =)

Since the IFT argument can only happen once in a statement, I fooled around and got one that works for both normal and TYPE identified creatures as it relates to Divine Smite anyways...

Divine Smite; DMG: 2d8 radiant; IFT: TYPE(fiend, undead); DMG: 3d8 radiant; [ROLL]; [SELF]

This way the effect will apply only 2d8 if it isn't either of the TYPES and 3d8 if it is, and the effect will go away after rolling dmg.

Then you just add @limpinjezus' additional spell slot argument with a separate effect Divine Smite; Additional Spell Slots; DMG: 1d8 radiant; [ROLL]; [SELF] for any increase in spell slots used (one effect per level)

All effects will apply on next dmg roll and fall of the characters!