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HalC
September 7th, 2015, 23:33
Hi all,
At present, I'm strongly considering the purchase of the Ultimate License pack in order to GM using Fantasy Grounds some time in the future. The reason for this is that if I'm going to invite people to my campaigns, I would like for them to be able to play without having to pay money for a product that they may never use outside of a campaign they may or may not wish to partake in.

That having been said, the question now arises where I have to ask myself just how viable is the FG2 software when it comes to running a GURPS campaign. I also wondered if someone who has some programming skills in VB.NET and can either understand XML to a limited degree - can customize things within FG2 for use if need be.

So, what are the pros and cons of using FG2 with GURPS? The reason I asked about customization is because I've read thus far, that SJGames tends to frown on a product in FG2 that does a GOOD job of automating the use of the GURPS RPG system. Things that can't be provided legally, can perhaps, if someone knows what they are doing, make available for themselves if they have the ability to tinker and set things up. So, any comments? Other than "Hey YEAH, we always want more GURPS Players to join the community", what should I know about FG2 in general? :)

Hal

dulux-oz
September 8th, 2015, 02:15
Hi HalC, and Welcome to the Community!

While I don't play GURPS myself I do believe that there are quite a few GURPS players using FG - the reason for GURPS having its own sub-forum :) - so you shouldn't have too much trouble using FG with GURPS: after all, if you can play an RPG around a table you can play it with FG (the level of automation does vary, however :) )

Modifying FG does take some real programming skill in lua and XML, but if you've coded before the learning curve isn't too steep - just take things slow, start with simple stuff and build your skill-set.

As far as what's legal/illegal (with any RPG) - the mechanics of a game are legal to use/modify, but its the "flavour" stuff that you have to be wary of. For example, the D&D 5E "rules" come with FG because they're available to do so, but the flavour text (the descriptions of a Fighter, as opposed to the rules for playing a Fighter) are subject to copyright and therefore can't be redistributed without a license. BUT there is nothing illegal about putting the flavour test into FG FOR YOUR OWN PERSONAL USE (which would include your payers) - if you then sell/give this away then that's when you've broken copyright.

So yes, FG is good for GURPS - you may have to manually enter in the data you want and it may not have all the bells and whistles that the 5E Ruleset does at first, but you should have plenty of fun AND get your money's worth out of the software.

See also this post (http://www.fantasygrounds.com/wiki/index.php/Development_Overview) from the FG Wiki on how the "architecture" of FG works.

And another thing: some GM's get their players to "try out" FG via the $4/month subscription - this may be another option for you.

Oh, one other thing: if you haven't done so already check out the Tutorial Videos on the FG Wiki: damns' are good, as are Xorn's, and people seem to like mine as well (mine are also available from the links in my sig, below). Start with the ones on the CoreRPG, becuase this forms the foundation of practically all the RPGs we play with FG, and by learning how to use the CoreRPG you'll learn how do do about 80% of the things you'll need to know to play any RPG with FG.

Cheers

HalC
September 8th, 2015, 03:56
G'day Dulux-Oz,

:)

Thanks for the heads up. Lua isn't anything I've ever heard of, and a quickie perusal of the Wiki left me scratching my head just a wee bit. A long time ago, I had decided to pursue VB.NET as a sort of hobby thing, nothing really serious, but kept my mind active and allowed me to try my hand at making little apps for my own use. Been teaching myself a bit here or there as I worked on creating software to automate HARNMANOR - which, at present, is maybe 70% where I'd like it to be eventually. Then, I got transferred out of my department where I work, into another department. So, I figured "Hey, maybe I can start to put my hard won knowledge to use in my new department - only to find (and reluctantly, I'd have to agree), that IT takes a dim view on people writing code for their departments that the IT department doesn't control. Having to support software that someone wrote, and has since left the company, is a REAL nightmare - so, I figured "Ok, no biggie". Then I found that VB.NET has a dumb cousin named VBA, which does allow me to create tools I can use at work. So, I've learned to use VBA and all that fun stuff.

Maybe I can learn to use Lua. XML is something that I was forced to look at where I work, and because of my faint knowledge of HTML, the XML wasn't the nightmare it could have been. Something tells me that if I do get involved in this, that I should consider buying the lesser versions first, and if I go live with being a GM for a GURPS campaign, having people rent the software for a monthly fee isn't such a bad deal. If I still consider the Ultimate License worth the while, I can purchase the upgrade (for an extra $10) and take it from there. Now all I need to do is finish with the Kitchen remodeling before I start on this *rueful laugh*

As it stands, between HARN, and maybe running an Age of Sail campaign, or possibly a Traveller campaign, it might be worth looking at FG2. My group used to be of 5 people. Due to health reasons we've lost another, and now we are three. Sadly, the last gaming store I knew of in the Buffalo Region of New York, died out unexpectedly - and finding new face to face players is a mite difficult. GM'ing for a small crew of friends is decidedly different than GM'ing for a bunch of strangers. But as one country artist wrote as a lyric in his song "A stranger is a friend you haven't met yet".

So, it is research time, and pinching the wallet time to see if it is worth the cost.

Thanks for words, MUCH appreciated Mate. And no, I'm not anything but an American, but I have spoken to a few people from Australia, New Zealand, and England. Being born hard of hearing, I pretty much hate phones to begin with, but man was I totally gobsmacked trying to understand Australian accents as contrasted to reading chats with Australians. I guess that is one reason why I'd never really use Skype in my games.

Question: In ScreenMonkey, there was the option for the GM to assume the role of an NPC and speak such that it would be identified as the NPC talking. When I used the free version of Fantasy Grounds, I noted that anything I typed in the chat area, said "GM". Does FG2 permit that kind of functionality - or could it be created ad-hoc with a function coding in lua? For instance /NPCNAME says "Hi Stranger, what can I get you?" and the chat area showing "NPC" What can I get you?" I did notice a "help" feature when I incorrectly typed in the /die [3d6] command during my trials... :)

Ah well, as this is the GURPS subforum, I should be talking about GURPS stuff. Catch you all later, the sack be calling me loudly. :)

dulux-oz
September 8th, 2015, 04:22
Hi HalC,

That's OK, me and the other Aussies (damned and others) will forgive you for being an American :p

LUA is reasonable easy to learn, especially if you've got some previous coding knowledge.

Just to make sure things are 100% clear: the only difference between the Full and Ultimate Licenses is that the Ultimate License lets Ultimate, Full or Free/Demo License players to connect to the GM, while the Full License will only allow Ultimate or Full License Players to connect to GM - apart from that, they are exactly the same and come with exactly the same "stuff".

Yes, FG allows the GM to assume other Identities. If you type "/identity" followed by a name you'll get a new Identity button next to the GM button below the Chatbox (you can have more than one). Anything you then type will be "said" by the selected Identity. There are also other ways of achieving the same effect (as I describe in my Tutorial Videos - Shameless Plug(TM)). :)

Cheers

damned
September 8th, 2015, 06:25
To put a not too fine point on it.... SJGames frowns on automation. However he has no control or say on what you do in a community ruleset. Game mechanics cannot be copyrighted. There is an exiting GURPS ruleset and a community member ronnke is rebuilding it on the newwer CoreRPG platform. This is a part time project for him and it could conceivably take another one month or six months.

My first intro to FG was actually by ronnke using GURPs which I had never used or played before and I didnt care two whits - I loved it! I havent played GURPs again since then - I play other systems but I was just rapt to play a game again.

LUA is a funny beast... there is lots of examples of coding about - almost all the code is human readable and accessible but the way FG works with code distributed between many different files can be obscure at first trying to get your head around it all.

Herodian
September 8th, 2015, 06:40
Hey, Hal!

I have run and played GURPS on FG2 using an ultimate license, and GMd it on roll20 with kickstarter backer benefits, so I think I've seen the best of both worlds. In my opinion, FG2 is superior for GURPS because of the excellent third party ruleset. The character sheet in the FG2 ruleset puts the roll20 GURPS character sheets to shame, and in this system more than most having an easy to read and easy to use character sheet is so important. On top of that, the FG2 GURPS ruleset includes some really nice map integration features that will calculate range penalties just by drawing a line across the map, if you have your map scale set correctly. That is a big time saver. The only drawback to FG2 ultimate is the price, but even there you have to consider that becoming a roll20 patron is a subscription ongoing, not just a one time fee like Fantasy Grounds. If you're going to play for more than a year, as I and many others have, then the ultimate license is still a better deal.

For old school D&D, which I have also run on both platforms, roll20 is better. But for GURPS, it's Fantasy Grounds all the way. I hope this helps.

HalC
September 8th, 2015, 12:41
Hi Guys,
For what it is worth, your words have had the effect of getting a chuckle (Thanks Dulux-Oz), and getting me to feel more at ease with respect/regards to sticking a toe or ten into the waters (so to speak). While I'm working today, I'm sure that FG2 is going to be running through my mind. ;)

The primary reason I considered the Ultimate License was strictly on the merits of accessibility for others. I have been gaming since 1978, and still own one of my original little booklets from D&D (sadly, not the original brown books I used to own, but what the heck, can't keep everything!). I pretty much gave up on D&D back in the day when I found myself in a campaign where the GM NPC's with thaco out of range of my character, who also happened to have magic resistance to where what few spells I possessed - wouldn't work. So I told him "I'm charging the foe and diving for his knees" (Had a DX of 18 at that time) and was told that the D&D rules didn't allow for that (by then we were on a different version of D&D). So, instead of what I said my character was doing, the result was not only not what I stated my intent was, but also where the NPC was able to get up more quickly than I despite all their armor etc. That's when I decided never again (not with this GM at least). So - I wandered through the figurative wilderness for many a year, buying many of the systems out there, GM'ing many of the systems out there, and finally, in 1986, settling in with GURPS. The idea is that the players should have FULL freedom to do what they wish with their characters. My job isn't to railroad the players down a road that I only prepared for, but to be flexible enough to give them freedom to explore the world/universe their character is within, and have enough grasp of what the NPC's are doing to have them "react" to the player's characters as best as could be expected. So, my job is to build the set, set the stage with the NPC's and step back allowing the players to set the story.

GURPS is something that has allowed me that capability. My wife has been gaming with me since the the mid-to late 80's. My best friend and I have known each other since the early 1980's. The stories we still teach each other in remembrance of past games brings us huge smiles. So, a dollar spent on a game is usually well repaid years later. In terms of Entertainment expenditures, it more than recovers its initial cost when compared to other possible "past-times" (such as movies etc).

As for the range calculation features etc - that sounds like a really nice feature. :)

Yeah, I think its a safe bet that FG2 is going to be on my mind for a bit. Thanks guys.

Hal

damned
September 8th, 2015, 13:16
Hey again HalC - have you seen or played Dungeon World or Apocalypse World? Quite light on in terms of rules but the the framework is quite encompassing and really allows - more than that - it encourages players to think in role playing terms rather than what the rules might say you can or cant do. Hopefully by the end of the year we might have a good DungeonWorld ruleset here on FG too.
Without GMs there is no hobby, and GMs definitely vary greatly in style (and ability) but GMs that just piss their players off like that do so much damage.

dulux-oz
September 8th, 2015, 14:04
Yeah, I'll echo what damned said - it sounds more like a bad GM than a bad rules system. I've had players/characters do the damnedest things with just about every RPG put out by TSR (& now WotC), plus just about every other system out there (not all of them, but you'd be surprised), and never felt the need to tell a Player they "couldn't do that" because of the rules - you tweek the rules or find one that works and then let them try (even if you don't want them to succeed, you let them try; you never say "no you can't").

No, as much as this hobby needs GMs it needs good GMs - trouble is, the only way to get good is to do it - and hopefully take on-board the advice of those that have gone before :)

So take note you young whipper-snappers! :rv: :p

HalC
September 8th, 2015, 22:56
Hey again HalC - have you seen or played Dungeon World or Apocalypse World? Quite light on in terms of rules but the the framework is quite encompassing and really allows - more than that - it encourages players to think in role playing terms rather than what the rules might say you can or cant do. Hopefully by the end of the year we might have a good DungeonWorld ruleset here on FG too.
Without GMs there is no hobby, and GMs definitely vary greatly in style (and ability) but GMs that just piss their players off like that do so much damage.

I've not heard of Apocalypse World. Now I suspect I'll have to google it. :)

For me, a good rules set is one that gives you a general framework to work off of, and have that framework be such that anything that is/was missing from the original rules, can be easily enough extrapolated into functionality - without really having to take too much time to do it. My wife has NEVER cracked up a role playing system rules book, because all she had to do was decide what she'd do for real, and I'd handle the Refereeing tasks telling her what she needed to roll or what have you. She never knew what were the real rules as written versus what I had to make up spur of the moment to keep the game moving. But before she became intrigued enough to TRY gaming with the crew (using GURPS no less), she got to see it from the Referee's side in preparation. I once ran an "Aftermath" style campaign using GURPS, where the nuclear warheads started to fly off the Atlantic Sea coast. I then told the players "The Emergency Broadcast system has engaged on the TV and Radios. Word has it that in 5 to 10 minutes, nuclear missiles would be impacting." I handed out index cards saying that people could go about the house and pick those things they wanted to grab, and if anything was heavy, they had to co-ordinate with others such that what they wrote was in the SAME spot (same location same line) on their Index cards. I set the alarm clock to go off in 5 minutes, but that alarm clock was none too accurate back in them there days." I then said "NOW" and people started looking around to put things on their list of things they wanted in the basement of the house with them. Food, can openers, water. One person turned the tub on and let it run for a supply of water. Others said "don't worry about the water, the water tank has 30 gallons in or more". Point is? She watched me design a top secret research facility disguised as an agricultural research station. Spent three days researching it including biowarfare books and the like. And the party just walked past it and refused to enter. She looked at me saying "That was three whole days wasted" to which I said "not really, think of all that we learned about bio-containment procedures and why they overpressurize areas and the like. She laughed. I think THAT got her hooked. After that, she was a natural at simply role playing instead of ROLL Playing. In real life, she took on a kid half her age on the fencing strip at the University of Buffalo. It was called "Dry fencing" because we weren't using electrical scoring systems, and she intimidated one guy so badly, that when she rapidly advanced on him, he rapidly retreated. Literally ran head first backpeddling to get away from her (the strips were TOO close to the wall unfortunately, for regulation fencing, but the university had a LOT of people fencing!). Another guy tried to use the fleche on her, so she kind of started to edge closer and closer towards the side of the strip instead of being at the center of the strip (opposite the side he would exit the strip when performing a fleche). So, when he thought he was OFF the strip, he was still on it and she nailed him in the back as he passed by. The Ref called it a fair hit and the fencer was livid. He still had one foot on the strip when nailed, and the ref calmly said "Turn your back to your opponent and you deserve to be hit, do you want a point awarded against you for arguing with a ref?"

So, my wife took on my hobby of both fencing and gaming - and made the mistake of marrying me. The things she's done as a role player have been pretty gutsy, but almost never the kind of thing to make my jaw drop (until the one Harn campaign, but that's a tale for another night for sure).

Long story short: Any game system that the Referee can make disappear mostly into the background and allow the story to move forward easily, is a good game system. Some referees can turn any system they touch into Gold. Some Referees can teach others how to be a good GM by annoying their players badly enough that the players try NOT to do what they hate having done to them. And some - need to adjust their delivery to the needs/desires of their players. Not one style fits all - :)

So, young whipper-snappers or no, being old doesn't mean wiser - just means we can (if we remember them) avoid the mistakes we made when we was young uns ourselves!

I guess too, that is what worries me about dipping my toes into Dungeon Fantasy 2. I won't know my players, and I won't know if I can make my style work over the net. It is one thing to gauge your audience when you have instant feedback based on body language and the like. It is another thing entirely where you have to prepare not only for the run at hand, but also a body of work you can have at the ready in case the line drive becomes a slice into the woods (so to speak). No campaign survives contact with a player character. My wife is living testimony to that!

As for testaments for the players themselves? See if you can spot the solution to this simple riddle:

Man commits suicide, and is sent to Hell. His friends gather round and try to save that benighted soul, by going to Hell and rescuing said soul, and if it wasn't too difficult, reknit the soul with its body (via Resurrection Spell). (background: It was late at night, and I was tired, and I really wanted to wrap the game up, so I gave the party of three players ONE simply solution that I believed had an easy solution to it...)

Players trying to sneak into Hell. Met by a Demon, who tiredly states "I will pose one question to the three of you, if even one of you gets it right, you may grab your friend back to the world. If you fail to answer the question - then you must stay in Hell forever." What was the question?

"Do you want him to go where he belongs?"

It was a SIMPLE yes or no question right? The first person asked said "YES! Then, instinctively realized "What a minute, he's where he's supposed to be!" and groaned. The second player when asked - having heard the first say Yes, then groaning, responded "YES!". Then as she thought about it, she too groaned. The third person, whose character it was that decided he'd commit suicide with, playing a new character, said "YES" and looked at the other two groaning, plus the GM who was rolling his eyes, said "What?!" as if that were a dumb question to ask...

See - I simply stated that only one person had to answer it correctly. All one of them had to do was say "Yes" and the other automatically say "No" and one of them automatically would have answered the question correctly <sigh>.

Ah well. If the players don't make the Referee scramble - they're not doing their job correctly. If the players aren't scrambling from time to time, the Ref isn't doing HIS job correctly. ;)

On that note, Consider the job done. I WILL be picking up Fantasy Grounds 2. Now all that remains is the task of deciding to go the modest route of a normal GM license, or the long term route of the Ultimate license. If nothing else, I can maybe get some people from either the Harn Forums to try Fantasy Games 2, or some people from the SJGames forums to try it out. Might get some more customers that way... :)

HalC
September 8th, 2015, 23:21
Hey again HalC - have you seen or played Dungeon World or Apocalypse World? Quite light on in terms of rules but the the framework is quite encompassing and really allows - more than that - it encourages players to think in role playing terms rather than what the rules might say you can or cant do. Hopefully by the end of the year we might have a good DungeonWorld ruleset here on FG too.
Without GMs there is no hobby, and GMs definitely vary greatly in style (and ability) but GMs that just piss their players off like that do so much damage.

In his defense, most GM's require seasoning. No person who starts off as a GM is gifted enough to start perfect from the get-go. I cringe to think of the mistakes I made as GM since 1980 onwards. But, each year's worth of gaming gave me that much more capacity to work almost instinctively towards working with my players to get a story going. Case in point? In one campaign, I started off with a set of NPC's whom I knew I'd need. I tossed in a one off NPC named Lady Clariese. She was the daughter of a knight, and was quite the willful woman, whose appreciation for the classic definition of a "Lady" was a mite lacking. Rather than ride side saddle, she'd ride like a man. Rather than be modest, she'd be forthright and adventuresome. Ever the graceful dancer, she even publically declared in front of an Earl that she could make even the most lacking of a Knight look good on the dance floor. Not amused, the Earl cut her down to size in front of the entire feast/party/dance and indicated to the young woman that if her manners most suited stable boys, perhaps she should dance with them. Her journey to recovering her sense of propriety resulted in her learning all over what it is to be a woman whose concerns were not self centered, but centered on those she cared about. Long story short - later in that campaign, my wife was heard to remark to another player (and this only three sessions after I had decided how this ad-hoc NPC woman felt about the player character in question) "You idiot, can't you see she's in love with you!". Here I thought I was being subtle Darn it! It was also the campaign where my wife's character was approached by a young artist who bashfully asked "My Lady, if it pleases you, might I have permission to paint your likeness? A Noble born man has already paid to have it done if thou wouldest consent." Little did I know, that "seed" of an encounter would later result in my wife some 10 sessions later, require me to "fade to black". When I asked her why she did that, she said "He had me with the request for the portrait."

It is the little touches that breathe life into the characters. And if you have a good enough crew, they breathe the real life into the stories. It isn't about the body count. It isn't about the magics (although that can be fun in a Fantasy campaign!). It is about how the players feel about their characters and the NPC's. Both the good players and the Good GM's can become synergist to the extent that the story told is better than any one person could have told on their own.

When you get right down to it, that GM didn't destroy my passion for Role Playing, just for D&D. Ironically enough? The ONLY D&D campaign I tried to run for my players with my wife participating, stopped being fun for my wife when her third level fighter could level any 0 or 1st level Fighter. She asked "What's the point?" A skill 12 fighter in GURPS should usually lose to a skill 22 fighter in GURPS - but that doesn't always happen either! Oh the stories I could tell! ;)

One last thing and then I'll bring this to a close...

If you ever want to get the blood in my wife's eye if she's playing a female warrior/knight...

"Lass, it no be meet that you be playing at being a man. Get down from the saddle lest I paddle your behind with the flat of my blade." THAT is sure to get her in a fighting mood ;)

Ah well. Take care Gentlemen. I'm sure we'll meet in the future (at least on the forums or during a game to be sure).

Hal

Gigermann
September 8th, 2015, 23:36
My group has been using FG to run GURPS for 5 years now, without any real issue

Herodian
September 9th, 2015, 04:58
If the players don't make the Referee scramble - they're not doing their job correctly.

One of us!

Honken
September 9th, 2015, 17:37
Well, the old GURPS rules is a little finnecky. It was done way before the CoreRPG ruleset, and therefore lacks some of the stuff that rulessets based on Core. And even though the potential of FG is huge, I actually don't think a ruleset needs more then it has. Well, ok. It would be nice is all skills, ads, disads, items, are treated as items, so you can write desciptions in them and stuff like that.
I am at the moment playing a GURPS Traveller with the GURPS ruleset.

/H

seycyrus
September 10th, 2015, 01:14
Hey HalC!

Somehow you managed to post on a day when most of the GURPSers were absent!

Gurps in Fantasy Grounds is great! There's the old rulest which works well, and soon there will be an updated version that is compatible with CoreRPG which should allow us to use some of the base extensions that some of the other rulesets are enjoying.

You'll do have to do a bit of work to set it up, and then you'll need to practice to get things moving smoothly. The combat tracker is very useful in keeping track of PCs and NPCs in a fight.

NPC blinded for three rounds? Put on a "blinded" effect with a 3 round timer to keep track of it for you.
PC is loading his crossbow with a crank? Put a 30 round timer on him and it'll automatically let you know when he is loaded.
NPC has his left arm chopped off? Put on a crippled left arm effect on him.
PC is now aiming at an Ogre's (+1 larger) head (-4) after aiming his braced (+1) crossbow for 3 rounds(+6) at a range of 30 yards (-7)? Click on those modifiers to automatically tally them up and apply them to the to-hit roll.

The ruleset comes with hit location tables, critical hits and misses and a few other handy calculators.

The sort of things that you got used to doing by hand in PnP, can be done quicker and with more consistency using the GURPS ruleset with FG2.

HalC
September 10th, 2015, 03:12
Well guys - it would appear that there will be another GURPSite here (if that is what a person who uses GURPS is called). For the moment, it is a matter not of cash, but of time. Knowing that I have to learn to use Lua (a new language) means yet another session of self-training *rueful grin* in an effort to make certain that if I want something that isn't there, I can make it myself. The older version of GURPS with FP2 sounds like it is functionally capable of running a GURPS style game over the net, having seen more than a few posts to that effect (thanks guys for chiming in).

Now, in no particular order...

Finish staining cabinets, varnish cabinets, rip out old linoleum flooring, build new framework on the floor for raising the cabinets a couple inches higher (we be tall people my wife and I), getting a new floor laid in, then setting up the cabinets. Continue learning about SQL for work, continue learning to program with VB.NET and Access. Then there's work, keeping the lawn in decent shape, and all that fun stuff. I think I can squeeze in the learning on how to utilize FP2 ohhhh, sometime around October or November *teasing grin*. Seriously though... You guys aren't making it easy for me to NOT pick it up now and lose an hour or two nightly. Got a guy I want to try a GURPS AGE OF SAIL one on one I'd like to try, then there is perhaps a GURPS HARN. Rest assured, I've not stopped thinking about it. Even told a co-worker about it and she thinks its awesome. Of course, she's not a gamer and all...

To quote a really bad Austrian accent...

I'll be Bach.

damned
September 10th, 2015, 06:02
LUA is only going to be required if you want to edit some automation (naughty naughty :bandit:). If you are wanting to make changes to Character Sheets etc then XML might suffice!
Also there is the ongoing development of a new GURPS ruleset to look forward to.

HalC
September 18th, 2015, 01:16
Hi Guys,
I finally bit the bullet and purchased the license. Now all I have to do is head over to the house of healing and find how to port forward so that I can get the "test" to come back something other than "failed". I will also need to know how to get the GURPS module, and all that fun stuff. :)

Thanks for the heads up guys.

Hal

damned
September 18th, 2015, 01:21
HalC - if you get stuck on the networking side send me a PM.

HalC
September 18th, 2015, 03:33
HalC - if you get stuck on the networking side send me a PM.

Folks. I'd like to take a moment to say "Thank you" to damned. Without his kindness and patience, I seriously doubt that I would have had my copy of FG2 up and running so quickly. Now, like a noob, I'm going to have to learn to "crawl" before I can learn to walk relatively speaking where it comes to DF2. Each day that I can work with this, and find out what it is capable of, will be another day closer to when I finally gather the nerve to offer my services as either a GURPS player or as a GURPS GM. Take care everyone, and a special thanks to damned for making it easier for me to get some sleep tonight. :)