Product Pricing Comparison?

[JohnD]

I am so sick and tired of the whole "free vs $150" trope that gets trotted out by Roll20 people as if it's an official mantra. It probably bothers me more than it should, and arguing on the internet etc....

Has anyone put together a pricing comparison document that can be easily linked to in order to repudiate the purposeful misinformation campaign, without having to get into a big back/forth?

I think that FG is the superior quality product (obviously) and it would be nice to have something like this to address the various Iraqi Information Minister types telling everyone that the US hasn't pushed into Baghdad when you know the tanks are rolling into the background of the camera's view so to speak.

[damned]

You cant argue with free and you cant argue with an evangelist. I usually point out the following -


Roll20 is not free. The Free users are subsidised by the subscribers. If the subscribers convert to free users the service wont magically remain free.

What are the advantages of Roll20?

1. No server/firewall to setup.
2. Dynamic lighting.
3. Inbuilt video/audio client.
4. Better dice macro options.

What are the advantages of Fantasy Grounds?

You can work out your own list - mine includes things like:

1. Commercial Rulesets with Library Content
2. Encounters!!!!!
3. Combat Tracker
4. Pins on Maps
5. Effects

[Nylanfs]

6. Your data is YOUR data, everything is on your HD.

[Nickademus]

I am so sick and tired of the whole "free vs $150" trope that gets trotted out by Roll20 people as if it's an official mantra.

How about this: "FG is free vs. Roll 20 is free" and "subscription vs $40".

FG is completely free in the same way that Roll20 is free. Someone else pays the company (as damned pointed out).

On the monetary side, FG does not cost $150 dollars. That is a license meant to service several people but puts the cost on the GM. FG costs $40 per person. Though, even the Ultimate license is only $10/month. What is the Roll20 subscription price per month for an entire table of players?

[damned]

Roll20 Subs and FG Subs are pretty much identical.

There is both a $4 and a $10 sub and they have access to more features than the free client. You absolutely can host a game for a whole table of people with a free account but you dont get a lot of the features that make Roll 20 cool.

[kylania]

you cant argue with an evangelist

I had a whole post written out then lost power for 4 hours. :( This is basically what I've found though. Every new-to-roll20 or RPGs in general person I've played with has instantly preferred using Fantasy Grounds. Most people with open minds prefer it as well. However, those who think roll20 is the best thing since downloadable cars simply won't listen to reason.

[jshauber]

Quite a few of the people I talked to working the booth at GenCon were roll20 users (GMs) who were looking for something better. They just wanted someone to explain to them why FG was superior and show them what it could do in person.

Trying to get in to internet arguments with hardcore users is a waste of time and they enjoy trolling for victims so I say avoid them at all costs.

Once someone gets a good look at FG compared to roll20 they usually choose FG, especially if they are a GM and have to do all the work. Just keep spreading the word about all the features FG has to offer and not worry about doing comparisons.

If you have to point out some FG positives:
1. You don't have to learn Java scripting to fully use it.
2. Industry leaders like WotC obviously see the value in FG as they have licensed products with FG and not roll20.
3. What is $150 or $40 spread over years of gaming with friends that is easy on the GM and players due to the functionality built into FG.

[Nickademus]

Roll20 Subs and FG Subs are pretty much identical.

There is both a $4 and a $10 sub and they have access to more features than the free client.

Is the Roll20 $10 sub for an entire table or does the table use whatever features the GM client has available by default? Then again, I should just pop over to Roll20 to look for myself. I'm just curious if FG's $10 sub (which covers all the players as well) compares directly to the Roll20 $10 sub.

[Findanniin]

I own both FG, and pay a monthly subscription to roll20.

I'll go and hide under the table soon, but ... I prefer roll20 for the ease of use, and the clear wiki documentation.
I tried to host a not-supported system on FG (Roll & Keep / 7th Sea). Most of the things I'm interested in, with the exception of Savage Worlds, are not supported by FG.
Setting it all up on roll20 took me an afternoon of wiki reading and asking questions on their forum.
Setting it all up on FG took me 2 days of searching though old forums, tons of PM's, a kind community member here to write a script for me I didn't (and still don't) understand (but could use - though can't adapt) and a lot of frustration with trying to host the actual game. Then it was fighting the program every step of the way.

FG lost me as a customer on a lack of clear documentation, and not making it easy to drag and drop your own content in.

Sorry.

edit: Having used both though, Damned - I have to say pins on maps (visible to all, or only to GM), all sorta of effects including tokens replaced by blood spatters on death automatically and more versatile combat tracker can all be done with API on roll20.
Using different 'languages' like you can do in FG is possible too, but a lot more clunky.

[soulcat]

well played in my first roll20 game this weekend. You definitely get what you pay for, I believe the DM was using the free version. The integrated voice and video and chat was nice, but unlike dedicated voice clients was hard to adjust..we could not hear some players very well. After that experience I am glad I went with Fantasy Grounds, and got myself an ultimate package. It is much more user friendly, I love actions, because the macros are awkward to set up. I found Fantasy grounds to be a smother experience, at least vs the free version of roll20.

[kylania]

Then again, I should just pop over to Roll20 to look for myself.

Good luck. As far as I can tell you can't even view prices till you sign up for an account. There's no mention of cost at all, just free free free!, till you've already given them your information.

[Nickademus]

Thanks for saving me the time. :)

[kylania]

Here's the roll20 what you get for $5 or $10 list (https://i.imgur.com/jpKXqwi.jpg).

[Nickademus]

Thank you kindly.

[Nylanfs]

1. You don't have to learn Java scripting to fully use it.

I think you mean Javascript, Java is something completely different.

[Wazoodust]

I tried roll 20 a couple years ago and fell flat on my face with it, I wasn't going spend a bunch of money on something that looked promising and could work if you were familiar with programming techniques and languages. I have neither the desire or time to invest in that. I wish I'd have found FG then, I'd have been a veteran player by now, anyhow...
I did finally find Fantasy Grounds and in less than 2 months I'll be running a game on here. I know there's things I still need to learn, but I've already done some encounters on here and feel confidant enough to try and do this with complete strangers. I have the subscription PHB/MM and LMoP, so $140ish in 2 months and I can run or play in any game now. Yeah the books have never been cheap, but in the long run you get your bang for the buck, .
Correct me if I'm wrong here but wouldn't you need to get the hard copy books to do the same on Roll20?, the money cancels out on that part right there

[Mask_of_winter]

Correct me if I'm wrong here but wouldn't you need to get the hard copy books to do the same on Roll20?, the money cancels out on that part right there

Not if you have grabbed an ocr'd copy on the internet.

[Findanniin]

The problem with FG and "books" of course is that if you already own them, you'll have to buy them again to use them online.

I understand that it takes dev time, and doesn't magically just appear compatible with the program - but if the base program were more robust, one wouldn't need to purchase truly expensive packs for what are truly mild conveniences over roll20's already there functionality.

Since the point of this thread apparently is comparing price and functionality; FG comes out cheaper after 14 months (!), except you have to pay a large smack of money in one go and provided you're only interested in playing D&D or putting in a lot of time building from scratch in an unintuitive interface.
If you want to play a ruleset that requires packs, it's possible you're paying around 200$ in one go, while roll20 will offer you the ability to rather flexibly do whatever-the-hell-you-want for ... 10$ a month.
Personally, while I know that in a year and a half I will have still spent 200$ on roll20, I find it much easier to justify than having to budget dropping 200$ all at once.

So what functionality do you get for *free*? A playable and robust and easy to learn and set-up system. Interactive character sheets that are simply "input data and click buttons", with auto-resolution of hits and misses if your DM likes settings things up.
Big advantage over FG even free is the flexibilty to roll and calculate w/e the f you want for systems that are more involved than "roll 1 die and add a number."
My free character sheet on roll20 rolls 8 ten sided dice, keeps the 4 highest, explodes 10's until they come up lower, adds it together and either prints it in the chatlog with a description I can easily change "Finny swings from a chandelier using acrobatics [24], or sends it as attack data to a token and lets me know right away if I hit. If I set up a macro to do so, damage rolls can be handled automatically - but I personally am not a big fan of it.
That's for free, and it's something FG can't offer me even if I pay.
A user scripted something for me to let me do something close to that, but I couldn't adapt it to do what I wanted.

Now, if I were to pay 10$ a month to roll20, I'd have a year and a half before I hit the same price point as Fantasy Grounds. And only the GM pays.
Asides from beautiful, wonderful dynamic lighting (seriously, it's amazing) - what else do I get?
A bunch of tokens and art to use in my games in a handy and easy to search library for the time when you go "****, they're fighting a basilisk?".
and ... well...
https://wiki.roll20.net/API:Script_Index

I'm sorry. I've learned how to use FG, and for supported systems - I'll happily join people willing to put all the hard work of DM'ing with as a player, but when I GM ...
There's no comparing the two.
I know I'm on 'your' boards, but you asked for opinions. Here ya go.

[kane280484]

I've bought Ultimate with a group of 4 friends, so it was 30$ per person. Right now I have over 700 hours played on Steam, I guess it's times three since I bought FG some time before it came to Steam. We've played over 350 hours of adventures so far (I track this statistic), so cost is 2,33$ per hour of fun, around half a buck per person. I'd never ever consider FG to be expensive.

You can easily turn around this argument that Roll20 is free against it - there's a lot of people who prefer to pay 150+ $ for FG rather than play Roll20 for free ;)

[Findanniin]

True.
In fact, my argument is that FG is the cheaper alternative *provided* you play a campaign longer than a year and a half. Or longer, if you get more books. 2 years isn't a stretch.

How many people you divide the cost by is irrelevant. If I asked my players to chip in to a roll20 subscription, they would. It wouldn't change the cost.

That said, free roll20 is still fairly robust, and the *potentially* more expensive roll20 gives you more options for your buck.

[kane280484]

One thing I envy roll20 is definietly dynamic lighting. But FG won me over with a lot of automation, which is important to me.

EDIT: It's been a while since I tried out Roll20 though.

[YAKO SOMEDAKY]

I saw some comments on one or another VTT, the two have interesting tools and choose the one we like best, in my case is the FG, a can say is perfect ... for me and my group missed dynamic lighting, even with all the other improvements and funções..mas I believe that one day the FG will be dynamic lighting. So from this moment, for this young mortal FG will be perfect :D

[jshauber]

I think you mean Javascript, Java is something completely different.

See, shows how much I know about programming....which is why I use FG!!!

[YAKO SOMEDAKY]

yes you are a certo..eu know anything about programming :D
But it would not be possible to change "platform" has acquired a dynamic lighting?
I know it's a purely visual appeal ... but it's a pretty cool feature ...
I know he has effects, conditions and other lot of things ...
But anyway this is just a wish and better than that even the deepest desire is that all have fun with the RPG no matter the platform or system, what matters is the diversãoe I currently have fun with FG :D

[kylania]

The problem with FG and "books" of course is that if you already own them, you'll have to buy them again to use them online.

You don't technically need to, you can absolutely parse or add any rulebook or adventure module into FG on your own. Buying them from FG just saves you the hassle. The difference is that I don't see where I can add my own rulebooks to roll20. I don't even see where a ruleset is involved in roll20 at all actually. Can I look up the abilities for a Cleric when creating a character using the wonderful sheets roll20 has? Can I look up information from the 5e spell list? Am I able to view the statblock for a basilisk in roll20? All of that is in FG if you import or purchase the rulebook packs.

If you don't already have the rulebooks roll20 seems kind of useless for actually playing a game other than the mechanics of dice rolling. At least with FG the rules are part of the program (once you buy the pack) and you can read them.


I understand that it takes dev time, and doesn't magically just appear compatible with the program - but if the base program were more robust, one wouldn't need to purchase truly expensive packs for what are truly mild conveniences over roll20's already there functionality.

You don't need to buy $300 worth of DLC to play 5E on FG for example. The adventures come with everything you need to play, the maps and encounters and NPCs. Also I can add all of that to FG while I can't to roll20.


Since the point of this thread apparently is comparing price and functionality; FG comes out cheaper after 14 months (!), except you have to pay a large smack of money in one go and provided you're only interested in playing D&D or putting in a lot of time building from scratch in an unintuitive interface.
If you want to play a ruleset that requires packs, it's possible you're paying around 200$ in one go, while roll20 will offer you the ability to rather flexibly do whatever-the-hell-you-want for ... 10$ a month.
Personally, while I know that in a year and a half I will have still spent 200$ on roll20, I find it much easier to justify than having to budget dropping 200$ all at once.

To get started with D&D 5E on FG could be $10 a month, just like roll20, plus $50 for the Core Class Pack (the PHB basically) and $20 for an adventure which includes all the maps, NPCs, items and everything you need to run the adventure. Lost Mine of Phandelver is basically the starter pack so you could even get away with just that. This lets you create characters via drag and drop, gives you ALL the information from the PHB including how to actually play D&D.

$10 a month on Roll20 gets you a pretty dice roller and some map tools. There are no rules. There are no prepared maps. There's no game information. You get some dice, minis, tricks and graph paper pad. It's certainly nice tools, but it's not a playable game.


So what functionality do you get for *free*? A playable and robust and easy to learn and set-up system. Interactive character sheets that are simply "input data and click buttons", with auto-resolution of hits and misses if your DM likes settings things up.

FG gives you interactive character sheets that are simply drag and drop information from the actual rulebook onto your sheet with auto-resolution of hits and damage and effects by default or even more powerful if you like settings things up. So if you don't already know what to put on your character sheet it's all right there in front of you, unlike roll20. I can have a total newbie join FG and make and character and understand it all. In Roll20 it's like handing a newbie a super complex character sheet and saying "Ok make a character". There's no information about what that means or how to do it, just a shell to put numbers into. Again, needing the rulebooks to actually use the tool, but unlike FG with Roll20 only the person with the physical rulebook can look up anything, you can't say "Click here to see the stats for whatever" and share a link to the rule page.


Big advantage over FG even free is the flexibilty to roll and calculate w/e the f you want for systems that are more involved than "roll 1 die and add a number."
My free character sheet on roll20 rolls 8 ten sided dice, keeps the 4 highest, explodes 10's until they come up lower, adds it together and either prints it in the chatlog with a description I can easily change "Finny swings from a chandelier using acrobatics [24], or sends it as attack data to a token and lets me know right away if I hit. If I set up a macro to do so, damage rolls can be handled automatically - but I personally am not a big fan of it.
That's for free, and it's something FG can't offer me even if I pay.

I don't really play the dozens of 10 sided dice games, but I'm fairly certain they can do that kind of thing in the rulesets that require it. FG can also do the emotes as well. The combat tracker is specifically designed to interact with tokens and already handles damage, hits, effects, multiple targets, automatic saving throws, damage resistance, immunities and more without needing a macro. It's absolutely something FG can offer, by default.


A user scripted something for me to let me do something close to that, but I couldn't adapt it to do what I wanted.

That doesn't appear to be a failing of FG as a system?


Now, if I were to pay 10$ a month to roll20, I'd have a year and a half before I hit the same price point as Fantasy Grounds. And only the GM pays.
Asides from beautiful, wonderful dynamic lighting (seriously, it's amazing) - what else do I get?
A bunch of tokens and art to use in my games in a handy and easy to search library for the time when you go "****, they're fighting a basilisk?".
and ... well...
https://wiki.roll20.net/API:Script_Index

FG comes with tokens and the same tokens you use with roll20 can be used with FG. I know, some of the tokens I use in FG I bought on roll20. Much of that API script index is just a default part of FG without having to pay for more access to use the API system or scripting to include it.


I'm sorry. I've learned how to use FG, and for supported systems - I'll happily join people willing to put all the hard work of DM'ing with as a player, but when I GM ...
There's no comparing the two.
I know I'm on 'your' boards, but you asked for opinions. Here ya go.

You appear to have missed a lot of FG's features but thanks for your feedback on the benefits of roll20.

I will say the apparently new "fire/burn/dragon breath" little animated fire effects on roll20 are pretty sexy and the built in music/soundboard is handy and sorely missed in FG, but there's simply no comparison between the products. :)

[MadBadHare]

Findanniin,

Can I ask a question?? Have you ever played a FG game or ran one so that the hands on experience is the same. I am not asking to troll you but quite the opposite. You seem to have a great deal of knowledge about Roll20 and was just curious if you had given FG a good try? Your post is well spoken and non-inflammatory which is very cool. I enjoy the civil discussion and varying opinions.

I am curious because as a fairly new user to FG (couple months now). I really like it a lot. I, like other's, feel really comfortable in it. the community is amazing. I like the fact I can buy content (no time option) or enter it (no money option).
Now on the other side of the coin I tried the "free" Roll20 for about a month before jumping to FG and I had a terrible time with it. Again my experience only. Played in one game but never tried to DM in it.

As a third point I also own a license of D20pro https://d20pro.com/index.php (Backed the d20 Ultimate KS) which was my first VTT. I played with it several months before I moved to FG.

Again please know I am not asking about your FG experience to troll you - I truly am curious to hear about it.

[damned]

For Fantasy Grounds supported rulesets I dont believe that Roll20 can truly compete. Ive seen experts show casing the power of roll20 with Savage Worlds and D&D and Pathfinder and they dont come close on either features or ease/speed of use for the GM in particular.
But as Findanniin points out there are oodles of other RPGs out there that dont have full blown rulesets written for them. CoreRPG really does do a pretty good job of providing a good base for other games (and MoreCore :) adds some more functionality on top of that again) but FG really needs more featured dice macros to be able to support a wider array of games with ease. Yes in a roll/drop/keep instance you can throw the dice and manually reroll and do some sums so it shouldnt actually stop you from playing - but it really is a feature that should be there - in my opinion :bandit:

[Trenloe]

@ damned - exactly. Findanniin is basing their frustrated experience on trying to get a niche gaming system dice mechanics working on Fantasy Grounds. As was pointed out to them at the time it can be done in the current infrastructure but it takes time, coding and patience - a lot of these if you're not familiar with it all. No one ever said those specific dice mechanics would be easy to recreate. This is one place where roll20 *currently* has more flexibility. Does this make roll20 more "robust" than FG - no way! (I see "robust" being used quite a lot in some recent posts). It just makes roll20 better for dice handling for the specific game Findanniin mentioned, and other games with similar dice mechanics.

I think people need to experience a couple of FG games with good GMs to see what FG can do. FG has powerful functionality (fully detailed character sheets, rules mechanics, effects, party sheets, NPC records, combat tracker, encounter handling with pre-populated tokens, etc.) - and this power can make it more complex for people new to the system (both GMs and players). Just like picking up a new RPG - you either spend a lot of time reading the rulebook and getting used to the system, or you jump into a game with an experienced GM to get to know what's possible with the system that way... Then people can make a balanced opinion of products.

[Findanniin]

Not looking to start a huge discussion, Kylania. You make decent points and you put effort into 'm, so I'll give you my thoughts on 'm - but please understand I'm not invested enough to really turn this into a big 'confrontation'.


The difference is that I don't see where I can add my own rulebooks to roll20. I don't even see where a ruleset is involved in roll20 at all actually. Can I look up the abilities for a Cleric when creating a character using the wonderful sheets roll20 has? Can I look up information from the 5e spell list? Am I able to view the statblock for a basilisk in roll20? All of that is in FG if you import or purchase the rulebook packs.

I haven't played D&D on roll20, but I'm told the character sheets for both pathfinder and D&D 3rd and 3.5 link to all the SRD and OGL stuff directly in an easy-to-use manner. Meaning, Yes - you can look up cleric abilities through the character sheet.
I, likewise, haven't played 5th edition - but if it's under a type of OGL, then I'm confident the character sheet will have all this stuff in place.
I *believe* there's an API script for monster statblocks taken from the SRD - but I'm not sure.
I'm not a frequent D&D player, sorry.
You're right in that it doesn't require messing with API codes once you've figured out how to use FG and in FG, it's all right there. I'd counter that learning how to add pre-made API scripts to your campaign is just as easy to learn as the basics of FG (with better documentation), but for Dungeons and Dragons and purchased modules - I'm totally willing to agree that FG has a lot more stuff right there for the DM.


You don't need to buy $300 worth of DLC to play 5E on FG for example. The adventures come with everything you need to play, the maps and encounters and NPCs. Also I can add all of that to FG while I can't to roll20.
You're right. But I did mention that I was talking about non-D&D scenarios.
That said, I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that roll20 won't let you add all that though. They will, and in a matter I, personally, find very intuitive.
You can purchase this content on their own marketplace as well, or make your own in a way that's, I think, objectively easier than FG's 'build your own module' "toolset".


To get started with D&D 5E on FG could be $10 a month, just like roll20, plus $50 for the Core Class Pack (the PHB basically) and $20 for an adventure which includes all the maps, NPCs, items and everything you need to run the adventure. Lost Mine of Phandelver is basically the starter pack so you could even get away with just that. This lets you create characters via drag and drop, gives you ALL the information from the PHB including how to actually play D&D.

$10 a month on Roll20 gets you a pretty dice roller and some map tools. There are no rules. There are no prepared maps. There's no game information. You get some dice, minis, tricks and graph paper pad. It's certainly nice tools, but it's not a playable game.
Yes, but here you're making the unfair comparison of 10$ on roll20 with no rulesets or adventure, vs 80$ for a licensed adventure designed to work with FG.
And you're right, your 70$ extra will, I'm sure, result in a nice out of the box scenario.
You can buy adventures on roll20 as well, though, due to licensing issues, not official ones.
I'm not disagreeing with you here - merely objecting to the manner in which you're presenting information.
I, honestly, don't have an agenda.


in Roll20 it's like handing a newbie a super complex character sheet and saying "Ok make a character". There's no information about what that means or how to do it, just a shell to put numbers into. Again, needing the rulebooks to actually use the tool, but unlike FG with Roll20 only the person with the physical rulebook can look up anything, you can't say "Click here to see the stats for whatever" and share a link to the rule page.
Yes and no. I do recommend you check out the popular character sheets on roll20 - they're hardly empty shells to put numbers in.
You are correct however that they don't link directly to rules, *except* where the OGL permits it, and for old systems where fans have felt that they're not doing anything illegal by making this available.


I don't really play the dozens of 10 sided dice games, but I'm fairly certain they can do that kind of thing in the rulesets that require it. FG can also do the emotes as well. The combat tracker is specifically designed to interact with tokens and already handles damage, hits, effects, multiple targets, automatic saving throws, damage resistance, immunities and more without needing a macro. It's absolutely something FG can offer, by default.

It's not. I'm sorry. Roll & Keep system is wholly unsupported by Fantasy Grounds, and out of the box supported by roll20. It took 2 people comfortable with FG to write a script for me that still didn't really do what I needed it to do. Your other points have merit, this is simply false. Sorry.


FG comes with tokens and the same tokens you use with roll20 can be used with FG. I know, some of the tokens I use in FG I bought on roll20. Much of that API script index is just a default part of FG without having to pay for more access to use the API system or scripting to include it.
The first argument is also true in reverse, as to the API index; Yes - much of that is a default part of FG, which you paid for. Just like you pay for it on roll20.
I'd say roll20 includes more options, but less convenience *for systems that FG supports and you own the books/license for*.
Would you say that's a fair compromise in our positions?


there's simply no comparison between the products.

That uhm ... made your giant post a bit of a waste of everyone's time, no? ;)

I kid, I kid, sorry.
I'd say there is. I'd feel comfortable saying that for systems FG doesn't support directly or you don't own the FG license for - roll20 is a clear winner.
For things FG supports out of the box (D&D3 and Pathfinder) - the line is muddled enough to have no end of back and forth debate, but I can see both coins and think it's ultimately up to preference.
God knows the price point nowadays is close enough and just a matter of purchase vs subscription.

Let me put it this way;
I'll still happily play D&D on FG. I'll happily try Savage Worlds with a GM on here who owns the license to the books here.
If I were to GM D&D, chances are good I'd do it on FG rather than on roll20, though I've gotten just as used to the latter's toolset now.
And for a dungeon crawl, I've so fallen in love with dynamic lighting that ... that would probable be the dealbreaker.
But, personal preference.

If I wanted to play World of Darkness, or Roll & Keep ... The latter is nigh impossible on FG while easily done on roll20. The former is a popular system, but made so much easier with roll20's character sheets that I think it's also the objective superior choice.

I'm not really trying to refute your points here, but you seem to have the impression I never gave FG a fair shake.
I did, and for D&D I'm perfectly happy with it.
I do resent the implication that that must be because I simply "missed all the features".


Sprou7

Hi :).
No worries, critical minds - no offence taken here.


Have you ever played a FG game or ran one so that the hands on experience is the same.
I've got a good 70 hours of experience with FG, strictly as a player. (Thanks, Steam.).
I've got 84 hours on roll20, as both player and DM. (Thanks, roll20 time counter).
I don't feel like a pro in either, but would say both are pretty easy to learn from the player side - and roll20's got a lot more documentation to get started as a GM.
Compare this wiki:
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
To this wiki:
https://wiki.roll20.net/Main_Page

and tell me which one directs you to go look for old forum posts first?




I am curious because as a fairly new user to FG (couple months now). I really like it a lot. I, like other's, feel really comfortable in it. the community is amazing. I like the fact I can buy content (no time option) or enter it (no money option).
Now on the other side of the coin I tried the "free" Roll20 for about a month before jumping to FG and I had a terrible time with it. Again my experience only. Played in one game but never tried to DM in it.

I agree, FG is a convenient tool, *if* you're happy being limited to just D&D, or the content they release as (paid) licenses.
I prefer the FG business model of "pay once play forever" over roll20's subscription model myself.

The community on both roll20 and FG is great, but this comes with a disclaimer.
R20 is huge - the mentor community (the API and mentor subscriber only forums) isn't. The latter is a truly fun community, just like FG's is.
The R20 community as a whole is too big to be cohesive. Tons of asshats and flakes. Still happens here, but definitely more risk of it happening with roll20 as there's literally no need to invest a penny for these people.
At least here, people who own a license have already sunk 40$ into it. They're likely (more) serious about wanting to commit to a game.

When I GM on roll20, I do more "******* weeding" than I do were I to recruit from the FG pool.

That said, without naming names, there's a few proper tools in this community too, and at least one's a friend of the mods.

[Findanniin]

Damned

You're everywhere, and a proper cornerstone of this community. I don't post often, but you're easily one of the most patient / least condescending mods I've encountered on a forum ever.
Just figured I'd tell you in public.

I'll agree with you that for the supported systems FG's pretty damn good. I would argue that "not coming close" is worded too strongly for me.
Imagine that this scenario would take 0 GM intervention in R20:

"The rogue; having heard chittering up ahead, moves forward - his torch reveals the goblins lying in wait. He takes one of them to half HP with a well-placed shot, his token changing colour to let us know that he's got less than half HP remaining, and his turn advances to me.
I cast "horrible sploogy death" on the one that looks like their shaman. It's succesful and kills him instantly - taking his token off the grid and replacing it with grisly bones and blood splatters.

The GM comes back form his bathroom break."

FG can't do that. It can do a lot of other thins, and it does some of them better. But "the two aren't close" is too strong.

Trenloe


@ damned - exactly. Findanniin is basing their frustrated experience on trying to get a niche gaming system dice mechanics working on Fantasy Grounds. As was pointed out to them at the time it can be done in the current infrastructure but it takes time, coding and patience - a lot of these if you're not familiar with it all. No one ever said those specific dice mechanics would be easy to recreate. This is one place where roll20 *currently* has more flexibility. Does this make roll20 more "robust" than FG - no way! (I see "robust" being used quite a lot in some recent posts). It just makes roll20 better for dice handling for the specific game Findanniin mentioned, and other games with similar dice mechanics.

I did get frustrated with it, and got a lot of sheepish "yeah, our support and wiki are pretty shamefully out of date" and "just ask on the forum" replies.
As to roll20 currently having more flexibility - near a year ago people were hoping FG would offer more in the next big (possibly paid, possibly free, we don't know yet) update ...
Roll 20's had two big updates since then, and 2 small ones. What about FG?
Sorry Tren. You can't keep playing the "coming to a browser near you" card.

I also think that you sound like you're minimising the issue when you say "Oh, it's only for a few systems with similar dice mechanics when similar mechanics include some of the most popular games out there.
All of the World of Darkness systems, Legend of the 5 rings, Exalted, Trinity, Aberrant, ...
That's a big deal and definitely has a place for being mentioned in a "comparison" thread.
It's hardly limited to "that one obscure system findanniin tried to get working."

[damned]

But "the two aren't close" is too strong.

:) Im a little partial. My wording is indeed too strong...

[Trenloe]

Imagine that this scenario would take 0 GM intervention in R20:

"The rogue; having heard chittering up ahead, moves forward - his torch reveals the goblins lying in wait. He takes one of them to half HP with a well-placed shot, his token changing colour to let us know that he's got less than half HP remaining, and his turn advances to me.
I cast "horrible sploogy death" on the one that looks like their shaman. It's succesful and kills him instantly - taking his token off the grid and replacing it with grisly bones and blood splatters.

The GM comes back form his bathroom break."
Ouch - MMO time! ;) But, if that's what you want do to, other than the automatic revealing of the map (which we all know FG can't do) FG can do 95% of that. Only requiring the GM to manually remove the token from the map.


Sorry Tren. You can't keep playing the "coming to a browser near you" card..
It's not just me - the devs are actively working on and have committed to bringing out the Unity port, which will include expanded dice mechanics. I'll keep playing that card because that is what's going to happen. You might not believe it, but I do...


All of the World of Darkness systems
Can be done, available here: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/wiki/index.php/Ruleset:_World_of_Darkness


Legend of the 5 rings, Exalted, Trinity, Aberrant, ....
I can't comment on what can be done for these as I don't play them.

[MadBadHare]

Sprou7

Hi :).
No worries, critical minds - no offence taken here.


I appreciate you taking the time to answer my question. I also appreciate that the discussion has remained quite civil. I like seeing the view from someone else.
Honestly I have less then 10 hours with Roll20 - My experience was not good. That probably skewed my perspective away from it.
As for my experience with D20pro - I just could not get involved in the community/games. To me it felt non-existent (My experience, YMMV). Which is why I landed on FG. I have been very happy with it and the community so I have found my niche in the VTT world. Of course I am interested in 5E D&D so that, as well, may have skewed my perspective as well. I have not delved into too many other systems in FG (looked at Starwars and Shadowrun a bit). To me it is all a new journey.

Again Thanks for your time and perspective.

[damned]

having 2 (or 3) solid VTTs out there with good user bases keeps them both working at hard at delivering more features = win for users
some people love FGs interface and others cant abide it at all
some people love roll20s video chat and others hate it
etc

[ddavison]

Wow, this has been a busy thread.

To the comment about what has FG done in the last year while Roll20 has put out two large updates, I can link you to the patchnotes that are linked from the launch screen of Fantasy Grounds. There have been 10 updates in the last 12 months on Fantasy Grounds. Some have been larger than others, but you can read about them below. This is in addition to making a lot of headway on our upgrade of the back-end system to Unity. Much like how Roll20's community develops character sheets for it, our community has also done tremendous work on a wide variety of systems. Many of these same developers are also compensated by us regularly as paid community developers. We share proceeds with them for their efforts since they help improve the experience of all Fantasy Grounds users. We currently have 36 paid community developers and are always looking to add more.
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/filelibrary/patchnotes.html

We do focus more attention on licensed rulesets. Our licensed and community rulesets cover the vast majority of all gaming being done worldwide according to released statistics on ENWorld and by Roll 20 usage stats as well.

One of the things that I frequently see posted is that you have to invest all your money up front. In addition to the $10/mo sub that only the GM needs to pay, you can also use Paypal's finance option to get interest free financing for 6 months on any purchase over $99. That gives you the benefit of a lower monthly fee plus the ability to eventually stop paying at some point. Unfortunately, it only currently applies to customers in the U.S.

[Nyghtmare]

I played a few months on Roll20, GMing a couple of 5th edition D&D games.

I manually put in most of the rules from the PHB, including macros for spells and attacks and racial/class abilities.

I set up maps (including dynamic lighting), placing the monsters that I also created from scratch (with appropriate macros) on there and hiding them on the DM layer.

I spent hours and hours of setup time getting everything like I wanted it.

Then I finally decided to give Fantasy Grounds a fair shake.

I bought the Ultimate License that was on sale, so that my players would be able to join me for free... I bought the PHB and Monster Manual... I bought all of the 5e adventures.

I did this on a Tuesday, started messing with the software that Wednesday, and had it all figured out (bringing in all of the PCs and NPCs into FG) and had taught my players everything so that we were able to play and enjoy the campaign that very same Saturday. The only "complaint" that they had was that they were not sure what windows were safe to close... otherwise they all preferred FG over Roll20.

Roll20 has the character sheets, sure... but to make them do anything useful, you really need to flesh them out with a lot of macros.

The Combat Tracker alone, not to mention being able to parcel out rewards (XPs, items, coins), saves sooooooooooo much time and effort.

I now have all of the campaigns that I had ever run on Roll20 set up in Fantasy Grounds, ready to go if I ever decide to resume them. No looking back for me — I am sure that any features that FG may be lacking (dynamic lighting and audio) are things that they can and will put in there sometime in the future.

[kane280484]

I am sure that any features that FG may be lacking (dynamic lighting and audio) are things that they can and will put in there sometime in the future.
There is TeamSpeak server dedicated to FG right now, I think there might be an option to stream audio. If not, there is Pamela for Skype, works fine with audio streaming for our group.

[Nyghtmare]

There is TeamSpeak server dedicated to FG right now, I think there might be an option to stream audio. If not, there is Pamela for Skype, works fine with audio streaming for our group.

I was not aware of any dedicated TS servers like that. I wouldn't mind getting the information on that. ;)

Me and my players use one that we were given access to by one our players, who is a Twitch streamer — he has streamed some of the Roll20 sessions before, but mainly streams Marvel Heroes and Eve Online.

[kylania]

I was not aware of any dedicated TS servers like that. I wouldn't mind getting the information on that. ;)

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?17071-Voicechat!-Community-TeamSpeak3-Server

[ddaley]

2 things would make me much happier with FG.

1) Link and navigate content more like Realm Works does. I don't like the model of every link opens a new window. It is easy to get lost in the windows.
2) Make font size adjustable without having to use scaleui

[LordEntrails]

Good discussion. Really appreciate the civility and careful thoughts on this.

A couple of things that are/were drivers for me (when I made the decision this past spring):

- Dynamic lighting. Really tough for me not to select the tool with this. Given the difficulty thoroughly evaluating the various VTT's without actually diving into them, this was the one thing I had serious fear of buyers remorse not having.

- Online server vs. self-hosted application. I am not a supporter of SaaS or cloud hosting of applications. Both professionally and personally. Especially personally. It is critical that in ten years I have access to everything I've created. With Roll 20 I have no guarantees of that, and if they go defunct, (which is always a real risk for any small s/w company, including SmiteWorks), I'm SoL. If the company (any of them) decide to change their platform, discontinue support, or anything else, I'm dependent upon their business decision with SaaS, but not if I own a stand-alone app. Plus, the whole limit on the amount of data that can be stored. 1 or 2GB hosted vs. 1+TB on my laptop.

- Forums/Community/Support. Active community and support was key. I don't remember my impression of the Roll20 community. But I do remember eliminating several other VTT's simple because their community forums were inactive or saw very limited use. I will say the FG forum's activity level and friendliness are a huge plus.

- 5E Licensed Products. Key driver. Definitely offsets the concerns over dynamic lighting. As for the cost, none of my players (4 others) have bought the books because I have them in FG. They don't really need them, so total cost for the group is way down over any other VTT or in person where ~3-4 copies would be needed/wanted.

Comments on my experiences and such, since buying FG;

- Community is invaluable.
- Documentation (wiki) needs work. (Something I've set myself to helping with when I become experienced enough)
- FGDaze are an incredible marketing tool (and tons of fun)
- Creating content is not tough at all. Have yet to need the PAR5E tool, but creating from scratch is not tough.

Finally, I think Doug and his team at SW have made solid business decisions which bode well for the longevity of the product. Building the community developers, ruleset focus, licensing, etc.

Last comment, as others noted, competition with other VTT(s) is critical to further development and benefits the users, so I'm glad there are a couple of solid choices for us gamers :)

[Trekkan]

I'm no where near an expert in either FG or Roll20, but I have used both. I think they each have their strengths and weaknesses.

Roll20 is nice, you can pretty much do whatever you want. The problem (for me), is that I had to do it all, scripting, stat blocks, everything. Now, if you have the time and desire to set it all up ahead of time, it's pretty nice. Dynamic lighting is really slick. However, the amount of time I would have to put in, really turned me off of the product. I simply don't have the hours of time it'll take to set things up every week my group plays. I also really disliked how things are "organized". But they do have some nice features. Really, to me, it seems like it's a great online tool framework, but you're expected to build your own tools it seems.

FG, pretty much has everything I like, and a lot of the "busy work" is already done for me. Encounters, all of the tools are nice and pretty easy to use (there is a bit of a learning curve though). It's all on my local HD (I'm ok with cloud stuff, but prefer local storage). The only thing I really don't like all that much about FG is the UI, as someone else already mentioned, the multitude of windows is a bit much at times. I'd really like to see a nice clean UI created for FG. Having all of the encounter tools and whatnot at my disposal though makes things so much more worth it than Roll20 for me.

Overall, FG wins for me, it does what I want, the way I want it done (for the most part). Roll20 is great, and if you're a do it yourselfer and have a lot of time on your hands to prepare, it's pretty good.

Currently I've (FINALLY), gotten a local group together, so I'm not currently using either product. But I'm going to see what I can do with FG and a laptop as a player. No idea how that'll work out or if it'll be useful, but we'll see!

Overall though, try them both if you can and make a decision then. Also remember, this isn't a decision as to whether or not you go for that open heart surgery... you can always change your mind later. ;) There's no need to be in one camp or the other. Use what works for you.

[Mirloc]

I also think that you sound like you're minimising the issue when you say "Oh, it's only for a few systems with similar dice mechanics when similar mechanics include some of the most popular games out there.
All of the World of Darkness systems,
findanniin tried to get working."

I ran a heavily modified World of Darkness campaign for a little over 3 years on Fantasy Grounds. It works, and works very well.

[damned]

There is WoD and VtM rulesets available.

[Centurion124]

The new Fantasy Grounds far outweighs DND Beyond or Roll20! If you haven’t checked out Fantasy Grounds Unity, that comes out in December, do yourself a favor!

[Bidmaron]

Welcome to the boards, Centurion! Glad you are thrilled with FGU, but many of us would argue that FGC far outweighs the competition.

[Centurion124]

Welcome to the boards, Centurion! Glad you are thrilled with FGU, but many of us would argue that FGC far outweighs the competition.


I totally agree. I think I might I have been misunderstood.

[dragonheels]

I think this vide is quite well done.
You'll see that FG is better, at least on the long term!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gHmxi4EydE

[JohnD]

I'm quite amused so see a discussion I started 4+ years ago resurrected. I guess it made it's SS and RS rolls. -1 point of CON though.