Frustrated Consumer

[Darkspyre]

Ive got to say Ive never been so interested yet discouraged in something such as Fantasy Grounds. The concept is wonderful the actual program useful but the execution one of the poorest Ive seen. This game is dependant on other people playing and from what Ive seen hardly anyone plays except the hardcore. All I can say im glad I didn't drop the 44 dollars to buy this program. I have to go to the forums to find a game. That has to be one of the laziest things Ive seen. Sign up for a game that will happen next week at 3pm or next month. Why not have a Chat lobby when loading up the program. I also paid for the month but apparently cancelling your membership doesn't give you access to the things you have bought (DnD character customization pack) and also immediately removes you as a players subscriber. I paid for the month I should get a month even if Ive cancelled after a few days. That's how an honest business model is run. Im hoping good things for this game/program/company and ill check back but as of right now its amateur night over at smiteworks.

[dulux-oz]

Hi Darkspyre,

First of all, although I'm not officially a member of SmiteWorks I am an avid and active User and Community Developer for Fantasy Grounds (FG), and I am sorry to hear you are disappointed/frustrated/whatever with the program.

I think, however, one of the issues is a misunderstanding on what FG is and is not - FG is a Virtual Tabletop (VTT): a piece of software designed to assist a group of people play a traditional (now known as a Tabletop) Role-Playing Game (RPG) without having to all be sitting around the same physical table. It is not a game in and of itself: it is a tool to assist.

So, not being a game in and of itself it's not designed to be used by a single individual, but by a group of individuals - in the same way that a traditional RPG is not designed to be played by a single individual but by a group of people playing together.

As far as the number of people who play RPGs in general and RPGs with FG in particular: there are many, many players worldwide, they just tend to game in stable groups over a number of sessions and so have very little need to advertise new games or for new players. I myself have been gaming in our current Campaign for well over three years with the same 7 other people, so I've never advertised for players because I don't need to.

Having said that, there are Game Masters (GMs) who run one-off "pick-up" style games regularly and so regularly advertise here - the LFG Forum is where they advertise - I know you've posted a few things but you need to give it more than 2 days; this is a long-term hobby not a short-term, 3-hour thing like WoW or StarCraft :)

As to your other concerns: I leave that to the actual SW boys.

But let me finish with this: FG is not WoW or StarCraft and so the need for a "Lobby" is a lot less than for these other programs - perhaps you could re-evaluate your position in light of this new interpretation of what FG is and is not?

If you're still interested in the fantastic hobby that is traditional RPGs then stick around and see if you can find someone willing to run a one-shot for you to give you a taste of what its really like. Then, if you're still interested check out some of the Tutorial Vids on the FG Wiki. All in all, I think that once you really understand how the hobby works you'll get years and years of enjoyment out of it - I know I have :)

Cheers

[Trenloe]

Sorry you feel that way... Lots and lots of people find RPG games using Fantasy Grounds. You don't see many of them on the forums because they find their group, get a steady game going and then communicate outside of the forums to keep their own private campaign going.

Pick-up games don't really happen that often - hence there hasn't been the overriding need to get a gaming lobby together. The lobby feature has been on the wishlist for 3 years with only 9 votes: https://fg2app.idea.informer.com/proj/?ia=48971 Yes, it would be occasionally nice to just decide to jump into a pick-up game, but that relies on the GM being prepared, having something to run and getting enough players who can play for the whole time period. That is why GMs, even if they're running a one off, tend to advertise in advance - to make sure they have enough players, for the whole length of the session they plan to run.

Most people what to get into a long running, regular campaign. And this takes time and patience - just like in real life it's going to take you a while to find a group that you gel with, enjoy the GMs style, enjoy the other players, the game runs in a time slot convenient to you, etc., etc.. This just doesn't happen overnight. Sorry that your expectations, or requirements of this software don't match the reality.

Stick at it, you'll have some disappointments - we all do. But, after a while you'll get yourself into one, two, maybe more games that are right for you, you'll have a blast and people visiting these forums will be none-the-wiser as you'll be playing in an awesome, regular, private campaign - that is primarily what Fantasy Grounds is designed for.

However, if you do want some one shots (also an excellent way to meet other players and GMs), try FGDaze2 next month (link in my signature) or FG Con 7 in October - if you can wait that long... :)

Just keep in mind Fantasy Grounds is a virtual table top (VTT) that facilitates like minded people to play RPGs online. The whys, wherefores, when and where are all up to individuals - and just like in real life, there'll be fickle people, people you don't get on with, game styles you don't like. But there will also be amazing GMs and players who, if you stick at it and keep a positive attitude, you'll be playing with years down and line and you won't regret giving the Fantasy Grounds application and community the time, patience and perseverance they deserve... Happy Gaming!

[Andraax]

You do realize that this software is a virtual table top to replicate face to face roleplaying over a computer network, and not an MMO, right?

[seycyrus]

Ive got to say Ive never been so interested yet discouraged ...

Out of curiosity, what interested you in the first place? What did you think you were going to be getting?

I know why *I* was interested in FG, but then again *I* knew what I was getting. You seem to have some severe misunderstanding of what FG was designed to be.

Did you think that you were buying something like Mario Kart? Where you would just log in, go to the chat lobby and say, "Vroom, Vroom, who fancies a race? I'm the fastest and the bestest!" and would be met with responses like, "Oh yeah?! I'll race you, you nerfherder!"

I'm genuinely interested in what might have given you that impression? I think SW is straightforward in their advertising about what the program is and what it is not. Was there a particular video or advertisement that you can remember that misled you?

[Nylanfs]

I also paid for the month but apparently cancelling your membership doesn't give you access to the things you have bought (DnD character customization pack) and also immediately removes you as a players subscriber. I paid for the month I should get a month even if Ive cancelled after a few days.

The issue with this is on Paypal's side see the FAQ (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/faq.php?faq=license_and_purchasing_issues)


What is different between a subscription and a non-subscription license?

Subscriptions give you the same functionality and all the same content as the one-time purchase licenses, but allow you to pay a low monthly fee instead of buying it outright. The monthly fee doesn't ever accumulate towards paying a one-time fee or allow upgrades at a cheaper rate, so please consider this before continuing a subscription for any extended length of time. The monthly fee will be charged each month on your anniversary date and your license will remain active during this time, unless it is canceled through Paypal.

As soon as you cancel your subscription through Paypal (see that section), our server will be notified of the cancellation and will deactivate your account. You will lose all Ultimate license functionality and the ability to re-install or update using that key. You will still keep all your campaigns and other creations. If you choose to later acquire a one-time license or to renew your subscription, all of your creations will still be available. The only thing which will be different will be your license key.

There is a limit of 1 subscription per email address. Any additional purchases of subscriptions will be ignored by our server, but will be set up by Paypal. If you have done this in error, please contact Doug at [email protected] and we can work with you to refund any duplicate billings.

How do i cancel my subscription?

Subscriptions are handled directly in PayPal. Log into your Paypal account and then go to Settings and then Preapproved Payments.

You can also log in to Paypal on another tab and then try this link to go there directly: https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_manage-paylist

From there, you can cancel that payment. Note that you should have already switched to your new license key and ran an update prior to cancellation if you are replacing your subscription with a permanent license.

I have a subscription, but when I updated, I received the Free license

Your subscription account was most likely canceled due to an inability to process payments. In some cases, Paypal's subscription service suspends collection of payment after failed attempts to process payment. This may mean that you need to review which payment method you had set up and possibly contact those financial institutions so that they allow future payments to be processed. Alternately, you may need to use a different method of payment.

To resolve this issue, we recommend canceling the current subscription from within Paypal (see the section on cancelling a subscription), waiting five minutes and then start a brand new subscription directly from the Fantasy Grounds store. As long as your first subscription has already been canceled, then you will receive a brand new license key. Enter this key into your Fantasy Grounds setting window and then re-run a Check for Updates. The software should re-install and all of your existing campaigns and creations should still be available. If you have any difficulties with this process, please feel free to contact us at [email protected] and we would be happy to assist you.

[Nylanfs]

Also I see games pop up in the LFG section all the time.

[chrisiav]

As a new user of FG (hosted my 2nd session last night) I can tell you that if you're not going into it with the right frame of mind, you'll most likely be disappointed. So far I've had my regular TT group playing. Most of them don't like it. Why? It's not TT. But most of them also play several games a month, sometimes several games a week. If I had that kind of time and gaming access, I wouldnt bother with VTT either. For me, FG is a pretty good substitute for TT when I need my D&D fix i between games.

[kylania]

The issue with this is on Paypal's side see the FAQ (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/faq.php?faq=license_and_purchasing_issues)

That doesn't sound like a problem on Paypal's side at all. All Paypal does is say that "Dude cancelled his subscription by the way", it's SmiteWorks that takes that information and deactivates the key instantly rather than after the paid time is complete.

There's no reason that you shouldn't be able to cancel a subscription yet still have the rest of your paid month available. That's how any reasonable consumer would expect it to work. Having to cancel 29 days in to avoid getting charged for another month yet still get most of what you paid for is a poorly designed system.

[jshauber]

Dark, You do realize that you posted yesterday in LFG forum and have 3 replies already about GMs looking to help you out. You might not have gotten my post in time to play last night, but there are quite a few games being recruited for and/or GMs willing to at least show you how it all works so you can get more familiar with FG.

I wouldn't bash the program, company or community in just a couple days. If you went to your local game store (GOOD LUCK FINDING ONE NOWADAYS!!) and bought a new ruleset would you expect to have a group waiting for you to sit down and play with them before you left the store? I doubt it, you would have to talk to the store owner and see if anyone was playing, maybe check a message board in the store to see if anyone was looking for players, maybe post something yourself about wanting to play...much the same here. Yes, here you have access to people world wide, but you have to give people a chance to see your post, and respond and be willing to check forums regularly to see who has responded so you can take advantage of the opportunity.

Have a little patience it will pay off in the end!!!!

[damned]

That doesn't sound like a problem on Paypal's side at all. All Paypal does is say that "Dude cancelled his subscription by the way", it's SmiteWorks that takes that information and deactivates the key instantly rather than after the paid time is complete.

There's no reason that you shouldn't be able to cancel a subscription yet still have the rest of your paid month available. That's how any reasonable consumer would expect it to work. Having to cancel 29 days in to avoid getting charged for another month yet still get most of what you paid for is a poorly designed system.

this is also a fair point but SW do state what their policy is also which makes the response valid - if not best practice.
if the OP contacts SW they will likely reinstate the remaining days (they have in the past).

[Darkspyre]

Hey thanks for the responses. Just to answer some of your questions. Im not bashing the program Im generally interested in the program or I wouldn't have check it out three times ( the third being me dipping money into it). I know exactly what it does it provides you a way over the internet to host/play RPGs in more of a PnP style with other people while one person DM his campaign that he has created in whatever universe he chooses( Pathfinder/DnD and others). After playing mostly computer RPGs most of my life im looking for something a little more strategic, tactical more of a thinking mans game. I get more satisfaction that way. I was probably expecting more of a instant type deal where a lot of people might be hosting a game looking for players but it seems that was my mistake. I got a couple of responses when I posted in LFG. One for that night on another persons character and one for next month. Again I was probably expecting something more instant but my feeling right now is this is a small community of friendly gamers(that are actually active). My intention was not to offend but rather to point out the shortcomings of my experience while using this program. Ill definitely comeback and check it out again maybe when its a little more user friendly.

[kylania]

Think of this more as a way to play a board game over the internet rather than a instant hop-on-in multiplayer computer game. It's basically like saying "Who wants to play Monopoly™?" to the internet.

Sure there are probably a bunch of people that play it every day, and some that play it for days on end, but mostly it's "We'll play when Aunt Irma comes over Friday night" or "How about the 3rd Tuesday of any month that ends in -y?" as opposed to "yeah, lets play some sweet sweet 'opoly right now!"

[Mask_of_winter]

Good analogy from Kylania.

Unless I'm mistaken, you're someone brand new to the community who seems to be thriving.

Something else I want to point out is that maybe to someone that's never been the GM it may be difficult to understand how much preparation goes into a campaign or even just a simple one-shot game for that matter.

[JohnD]

Seems like a case of unrealistic expectations vs reality of this not being a WoW type of environment. Hope the OP finds what he's looking for - personally I don't think it exists.

[seycyrus]

... My intention was not to offend but rather to point out the shortcomings of my experience while using this program. Ill definitely comeback and check it out again maybe when its a little more user friendly.

Hey dude! I'm online now, wanna race? *Vroom Vroom!* You're momma so fat that when she sits around the house, she sits AROUND the house!

Edit: Aw man! I waited around for you for like a whole ten minutes! Where were you? Don't you want to race? *Vroom Vroom!* How lame-o!

[Darkspyre]

Hey dude! I'm online now, wanna race? *Vroom Vroom!* You're momma so fat that when she sits around the house, she sits AROUND the house!

Edit: Aw man! I waited around for you for like a whole ten minutes! Where were you? Don't you want to race? *Vroom Vroom!* How lame-o!


Do you have a problem? I was trying in the nicest way possible to describe my experience with this program and you have to off like some reject with down syndrome about mariokart or some ****. If this is the community that FG is breeding I don't want any part of it thanks.

[seycyrus]

Do you have a problem? I was trying in the nicest way possible to describe my experience with this program and you have to off like some reject with down syndrome about mariokart or some ****. If this is the community that FG is breeding I don't want any part of it thanks.

Sorry. I was using sarcasm to point out that you don't know what you are talking about. Guess you didn't get the sarcasm?

Why didn't you respond to my post an hour ago?

[seycyrus]

Sorry FG. I'll try to tone it down.

[damned]

Darkspyre most role playing games take place between the same group of people who meet regularly for 3-5 hours the same night every week/fortnight/month for many months and even years. There are many thousands of people using Fantasy Grounds but most of them already have this group and rarely or never visit here. When you join a game you are generally expected to be there on time and for the entire duration of the session and then to repeat the following session. It doesnt really lend itself to pickup/drop-n games although this does happen - just not that often.
For a session to run you need a GM who has already prepped a scenario - and if its a one shot he has also prepped characters - this can take many hours of work and GMs dont often pop in looking to run a game in 10mins time like you would have in an MMO situation.
If all that still sounds interesting - be patient and express an interest in games that are being advertised that fit your schedule.

Have fun.

[Trenloe]

Keep it constructive and educational please. We've always been a very welcoming community here, please keep it that way. Thanks.

[Crymoricus]

Virtual Table Tops are in the toddler stage. Demand for Virtual Table Tops is rising at the moment, but to take VTT's from the toddler stage to something you envision would take a very large investment and commitment from any VTT company -- the demand for them would need to be much, much higher than it is now. So, for now, that investment would be pretty risky it seems to me. Just the same, the folks at Fantasy Grounds are hardly slacking.

I, too, envision a day when demand is high enough to warrant a gaming lobby. But I also envision a day when DM's are paid for their time, perhaps on a subscription basis. Heck, I can imagine a day (perhaps in an alternate universe, lol) when teams of DM's work together, creating all sorts of content -- from maps, to sound, to dialogue, etc -- and actually make a living doing it. The competition alone would elevate online campaigns involving strangers from across the globe to a level heretofore unheard of.

For now, we make the best we can of what is actually possible. Fantasy Grounds has never advertised itself to be a game unto itself, and VTT's never will be games unto themselves. VTT's are, and always will be (even in my alternate universe) a platform on which to play, the same way your physical table top is a platform for eating dinner (or playing games). I think you already understand this, though.

Honestly, your real complaint is not with Fantasy Grounds. Your real complaint is with the idea that not enough people are sitting at the table for your taste. You want to get in and play right this second, because, after all, you paid actual money to do so.

Well, fortunately for you my alternate universe doesn't exist yet, and no one who is busting their butt to make you happy is going to charge you anything, presumably because they actually enjoy spending hours on end imagining ways to make you happy. All you have to do is find that person. The good news is that that person IS here. On these forums. Somewhere. You just have to spend some time putting up with "the way things are now" in order to find them. Heck, I've already read in this thread that there have been people trying to invite you in? Wow, that's like someone coming to my door and saying, "hey, is it okay if I mow your lawn?"

You stepped into a hobby when you bought Fantasy Grounds. I think it's a great hobby that's worth my time, and I don't regret it a bit. It sounds like your investment so far has been small, and your frustration may not be based so much on the prospective loss of that investment than the notion that it's not exactly what you hoped it would be.

My final word to you would simply be that, if you add a little time and effort to go along with your monetary investment, I think you'll find you'll be happy enough with what Fantasy Grounds is right now. It's up to you to decide whether or not you want to invest that time and effort. On behalf of myself, I hope you do. I'd love to see you become a part of this wonderful community.

[Crymoricus]

Hey dude! I'm online now, wanna race? *Vroom Vroom!* You're momma so fat that when she sits around the house, she sits AROUND the house!

Edit: Aw man! I waited around for you for like a whole ten minutes! Where were you? Don't you want to race? *Vroom Vroom!* How lame-o!

Wow, I guess there's a first time for everything. Maybe this IS the game he's used to playing.

[damned]

Wow, I guess there's a first time for everything. Maybe this IS the game he's used to playing.

No that was seycyrus getting a little excited... :bandit:

[epithet]

I don't think I'd be much interested in a lobby for spur-of-the-moment matchups. I like to have my group, people I know and enjoy "hanging out" with, even if it is around a virtual table. If I were to find myself without a game group, I would rather take the time to find a new compatible group than to bounce around among one-shots.

But that's just me.

[Griogre]

Peace, I think the OP's problem is he's never played in a face to face RPG in an ongoing campaign. He doesn't know how the dynamics of a fixed gaming group with a GM works. I personally find it encouraging for the hobby that we are *actually* starting to see interest by people in VTT RPGing who haven't been able to play face to face before.

[seycyrus]

*Vroom Vroom* ?

[Trenloe]

*Vroom Vroom* ?
I think you've already chased the OP off.

Well done. (sarcasm)

[seycyrus]

I think you've already chased the OP off.

Well done. (sarcasm)

First time that I've ever seen a 40-50 (60?) yr. old **GAMER** without an idea about how PnP is organized.

[Crymoricus]

/crickets

[Trenloe]

First time that I've ever seen a 40-50 (60?) yr. old **GAMER** without an idea about how PnP is organized.
That being the case, don't you think it would have been better to educate said gamer rather than taunting and driving them away?

[seycyrus]

That being the case, don't you think it would have been better to educate said gamer rather than taunting and driving them away?

I 1) didn't realize it at the time and 2) Thought he would see the sarcasm and we would talk it out, and he would realize that his expectations were outlandish and would extend his search for a game. You know, maybe something on the order of days instead of minutes.

Edit: BTW dude was already on the way out. Claiming that he would be back in a couple of years or something.

Edit 2: I PMed you about an unrelated matter.

[Blahness98]

Suggestion? Lock thread and let this go. This thread no longer on topic or helpful and should be closed.

[Crymoricus]

I 1) didn't realize it at the time and 2) Thought he would see the sarcasm and we would talk it out, and he would realize that his expectations were outlandish and would extend his search for a game. You know, maybe something on the order of days instead of minutes.

Edit: BTW dude was already on the way out. Claiming that he would be back in a couple of years or something.

Edit 2: I PMed you about an unrelated matter.

Crymoricus pulls up alonside seycryus in his red Ferrari f430, shouting above the roar of the engines on the track.

"My thoughts exactly, dear fellow! Knowing, as we all do, how receptive Darkspyre is to a good and jovial rousting, I felt certain he would catch your intent! I also thought he would be soothed by his Siamese cat, Jasper, who is known to frequent his lap! 'Tis a mystery how things went awry, quite honestly. Hopefully he found solace in the splendid dinner I think was prepared for him by his loving wife Kathryn later in the evening! I think it was Filet Mignon served with a side of grilled asparagus and a baked potato!"

Crymoricus removes one hand from the steering wheel to tip his beret to seycyrus, then looks intently toward the finish line. The Ferarri's engine roars as Crymoricus' beret flies from his hand.

"The finish line approaches! Incidentally, nice Pinto, old boy! Cheerio!"

The Ferrari races ahead of the pinto in a flash, with the engine singing, VROOM, VROOM...

[dulux-oz]

Alright, I think this has gone on long enough :)

Its getting way off topic and I think we've exhausted the possibilities.

I'm shutting this down - one of the other Mods can reinstate it if required.