Tiamat and Takhisis

[Niles]

Don't know if anyone's asked this...but is the Rise of Tiamat intended to be the 5e version of Dragonlance? I know they're set in different worlds but can't help but notice the comparison between Tiamat and Takhisis.

[Xorn]

Well, according to Weiss & Hickman, she is not Tiamat.

However Tiamat, a five-headed chromatic dragon of each color, was introduced in the Greyhawk supplement for 0E D&D in 1975 (though she wasn't named Tiamat yet, just "The Chromatic Dragon" and "The Dragon Queen". In 1977 she was published in the 1E MM and has been there ever since.

Weiss & Hickman created Dragonlance in 1982, and Tahkisis has the same draconic description as Tiamat. However that's just one form she takes, being the head of the dark pantheon in that world. The D&D Tiamat got her name from a Babylonian goddess (who was much different). Jeff Grub (who worked on Dragonlance) said that yes, Tahkisis is Tiamat, but again Weiss & Hickman say no.

I would personally say that Tiamat was the inspiration for Tahkisis. In D&D, Bahamut & Tiamat are the king/queen of dragons. In Dragonlance, Paladine & Tahkisis are the supreme deities of good and evil; I feel like the started with the former and they evolved into the latter.

[merlinpaladin]

It says the two are the same in the dmg. I was just reading it last night that's just the name they use on dragonlance setting

[Xorn]

I'm pretty sure Weiss & Hickman would still say they are not the same. :)

[WhtZombie]

WotC monster mythology indicates they are one and the same. "... both Bahamut and Tiamat appeared prominently in the Dragonlance Chronicles adventures (1984–1986) under the new names of Paladine and Takhisis." I am thinking since WotC owns the IP for DnD one can safely assume they are the same.
Reference: https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/monster-mythology

[epithet]

I'm pretty sure Weiss & Hickman would still say they are not the same. :)

I am reminded of "This is not a pipe." They're obviously the same.

[Karykzen]

Wikipedia does a good job too on the discussion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29

[No1Sciguy]

All that being said, from what I've seen of it (I haven't run it yet) it looks like you could easily port this over to Krynn. All the elements and the feel of Krynn are clearly there. Tiamat, Draconians, Dragon cults, flying castles, etc. Change some locations and NPC's, stick in some Kender (oh boy) and you would be all set. :)

[demonsbane]

Essentially Takhisis is the name for Tiamat in the world of Krynn, in which there are specific connotations, happenings and tales around this entity, that aren't applicable to other settings.

[Zeus]

I would agree with the Xorn, Weiss and Hickman interpretation.

Whilst they share common characteristics (they are dragons) they are sufficently different.

Bahumat/Tiamat are Dragon King/Queen with dominion over Dragons in campaign worlds that include non Draconic deities i.e. Greyhawk/Mystara
Paladine/Takhisis are Dragon Deities (Good/Evil) in the world of Krynn with dominion over draconic and non-draconic races

Under 5E I would look at it from a personality/trait perspective, each NPC has its own motivations, goals and aspirations - not to mention slightly different abilities. Would Tiamat's goals 100% align with those of Takhisis'? Or would Bahumat's personality mirror Paladine's?

[Doc_Jones]

If you consider the lore and the game aspects separately you could say that Tiamat and Thakisis are different dieties that share some characteristics from a story/lore standpoint, and that for the purposes of gameplay, they share the same template.

[epithet]

Maybe it's been too long since I read any Dragonlance stuff, but I'm not seeing much difference. Both are progenitors of chromatic dragonkind, both are 5 headed dragons, both want to conquer pretty much everything and rule the multiverse. One is an evil god, specializing in dragons and related critters, the other one is the evil god, specializing in, well... evil. That's the only difference I can see.

There's a much greater difference between AD&D orcs and 5e orcs than there is between Tiamat and Takhisis.

[Griogre]

I think what you are missing is that in any current D&D world is that Tiamat is the Queen of Evil *Dragons*. In Dragonlance Takhisis is the Supreme Evil God for *everyone.* In Dragonlance, Takhisis has jurisdiction over all races (or at least those who are evil) not just dragons.

[epithet]

In 4e, if I remember correctly, Bahamut and Tiamat were gods with worshipers of many races. In the current Dragon Queen adventure path, my understanding is that there is a cult of Tiamat worshipers who are human that are running amok. Admittedly, I haven't read the adventure because the next guy whose turn it is to DM in my group plans to run it.

Dragonlance is all about dragons, so it makes sense for the two dragon gods to be the most important divine powers in the setting. I doubt any DM would tell a cleric's player that Bahamut was off limits as a deity because the character isn't a dragon.

It's not just Tiamat or Bahamut, it's also the fact that you have both of them together. You've got The Platinum Dragon that's the icon of good, The Chromatic 5 Headed Dragon as the icon of evil. Both NPCs and their relationship as sibling enemies remain the same. W&H made a world all about dragons, so they took that Platinum/Chromatic thing and made it the central divine theme, but it's still the same Platinum/Chromatic thing that it's always been.

Anyway, I'm not particularly invested in this issue.

[rakshasa]

Tiamat is a minor deity, Takhisis is a greater god that grants spells.

[Three of Swords]

Apparently either Tiamat or Takhisis is also a powerful necromancer, because unholy thread necromancy of a 6-year old thread! :)

[CaspieBadKid]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in 3.5e didn't they put out rules for divine ranks? I thought that rank was based on your following; the more followers you have, the more powerful you are. By this ruling, the reason Takhisis is the All-powerful evil goddess of the realm IS BECAUSE it's a very dragon dominant setting. Add on top the people who AREN'T dragons and she's winning by a landslide. Put her in a setting that isn't dominated by dragons, she'd be weaker because the primary source of her power comes from her worshippers, and in a non-dragon dominated setting, she just wouldn't have the followers to back it up.

I mean, I could be wrong about this, but it makes sense, given that Tiamat likely immigrated to Toril since Dragons weren't a part of the creator races during the Days of Thunder, and didn't exist until the Dawn age. I mean, even elves and dwarves were immigrants to Abeir-Toril from other worlds, so it wouldn't be that unheard of....