Pathfinder ability drain vs. damage

[Blackfoot]

I'm a little confused by this fix... it does not seem to be consistent with the PF rules.
[PFRPG] Odd number ability bonus effects would not affect roll modifiers. Fixed.


For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability...Odd numbered ability penalty effects 'seem' to be irrelevant based on the PF rules.. the old functionality seems to have been correct.

[Moon Wizard]

I think this may be a debate for the PFRPG forum. I think HoloGnome reported the issue, and I found mixed results in my searches online.

Regards,
JPG

[Blackfoot]

It seems to be pretty clear here (https://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/glossary.html#ability-score-damage-penalty-and-drain) (which is where I found what I quoted below) but I guess someone could want to interpret it another way.
The functionality of Ability Damage on the Main Tab (rather than effect penalties) still works in accordance with the listed rules.

[Trenloe]

I think this may be a debate for the PFRPG forum. I think HoloGnome reported the issue, and I found mixed results in my searches online.
Blackfoot is right in part, but it is actually more complex and it depends on what is reducing an ability - in Pathfinder, you don't apply ability damage and ability penalties directly against the ability score, you apply the ability damage/penalty for every 2 points reduced (rounded down) no matter what the reduction would actually bring the ability score to. 1 damage/penalty = 0, 2 & 3 damage/penalty = -1, 4 & 5 damage/penalty = -2, etc..

Ability drain *is* applied directly to to the ability score and the resulting change in the ability modifier recalculated based of the actual ability score after drain. i.e. it does not follow the damage/penalty 2-points per -1 penalty rules.

Likewise for bonuses: "Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses. For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability."

"Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours"

So, to summarise:


Ability damage and penalties (such as from spells) use the -1 penalty per 2 points lost rule. Ability bonuses that last less than 24 hours (or last more than 24 hours but during the first 24 hours) have a similar every 2 points = +1 bonus rule.
Ability drain is applied directly to the ability. Ability bonuses that have a duration of greater than a day are applied directly against the ability.


All of these rules are pretty clear in the Ability Score Bonuses and Ability Score Damage, Penalty, and Drain sections of the PRD in the Glossary.

[Moon Wizard]

Okay, that explains some of the debate. However, the question remains as to what the implementation should be.

The 3.5E/PFRPG ruleset currently has no mechanism to qualify ability damage as drain vs. damage/penalty (plus 3.5E doesn't need since they are the same in 3.5E (I think)). At the moment, the only simple way I see is to add ability drain vs. ability damage fields. But, this creates quite a bit of user confusion in the UI (plus the rules themselves are confusing in this case), plus there's no place to put the field without additional clutter.

Seems like one place where PFRPG tried to simplify, and forgot one case.

Thanks,
JPG

[Moon Wizard]

Moved to new thread.
JPG

[Blackfoot]

I guess it could be handled with a modifier like...
STR:-1 drain
STR:-1 damage
or something like that.
Which honestly might be a bit better as it is more informative for the GM and Players.

[Trenloe]

The 3.5E/PFRPG ruleset currently has no mechanism to qualify ability damage as drain vs. damage/penalty (plus 3.5E doesn't need since they are the same in 3.5E (I think)).
Just checking through the PFRPG ruleset - the "Dmg" column on the main page of the character sheet calculates using the 2-points-equals-1-bonus/penalty, so it is logical to have ability effects do the same.

In order to cater for more permanent ability modifiers, could the base ability field be changed to a "temporary modifier" field so that more permanent bonuses/penalties could be applied using CTRL+mousewheel and visually tracked?

This would be the least impact to the ruleset (other than having to re-code the ability effects to be 2-points-equals-1-bonus/penalty) and will allow better tracking of more permanent changes to abilities without them relying on effects. Use effects and/or the "Dmg" column for temporary modifications to the ability and use the modifier field on the main ability for permanent changes.

[Moon Wizard]

Or I guess that the damage fields could be classified as drain. And, all effects would apply to 2-to-1 rule.

Only read-only fields can have modifier widgets, so couldn't do the abilities that way. I believe the bonus fields already have widgets?

JPG

[Trenloe]

Or I guess that the damage fields could be classified as drain. And, all effects would apply to 2-to-1 rule.
That could work, but it would have to be drain and permanent bonus rolled into one - might get messy.


Only read-only fields can have modifier widgets, so couldn't do the abilities that way. I believe the bonus fields already have widgets?
Yeah, the bonus fields already have the widgets, but these can't be used for odd ability adjustments - i.e. a 1 change on the bonus is an ability change of 2, so these aren't fine enough in their own right for applying drain/permanent ability bonuses.

[Blackfoot]

Would allowing for the effect types I suggested below make it too complicated? Seems like that would solve the issue... having the tracker and the main tab work differently is going to be confusing for users... it already was ... even when it was working the same on both.
Most users won't realize that drain and damage are effect modifiers and will just apply it as STR:-1.. mostly because they are lazy... but when it doesn't work as expected (like it did in my game last week) it'd be nice to have an option for making it work correctly.

[Nickademus]

I had the code for applying ability damage to PCs using a damage action (and thus not an effect). The section of the ruleset where I put the code in the extension was removed when the weapon UI was changed, but the logic is still sound.

Ability drain should use effects like normal, and every point should count. Ability damage should use the damage action and go straight to the DMG column of the PC.

This doesn't help for NPCs since they have no ability scores, but they are less likely to be taking ability damage and drain.

[Blackfoot]

That's not actually true. Spells like ray of enfeeblement or chill touch do ability damage regularly to both PCs and NPCs. The damage boxes on the main table are somewhat superfluous and cumbersome to work with for the GM... I was a proponent of creating spells that did damage directly to the main tab... but the more I've worked with handling it as effects... the more I'd like to just be able to do it that way. In the ruleset I'm coding I'm handling the effect creation for ability Aid and Drain through weapon damage (rather than through spell classes). It works pretty well and everything is there in the tracker where it is easy to see what's happening.

[Nickademus]

My extension made it so ability damage didn't need a spell class.

A shadow's attack line (with my old extension) was:
"incorporeal attack +4 melee touch (1d6 strength)"

When you moused over the '1d6 strength' it highlighted and you double click it. FG would roll a d6 and add that amount to the Str Dmg field, automatically calculating the penalty based on even number damage. I'm not sure how much easier you can get, especially since effects (and the spell classes they are in) cause lag when being added to the CT.

Also, I don't think an effect allow you to roll the modifier for an ability score. So you can't do an effect for STR: -1d6 (you'd have to do ABIL: -1d6 strength, but I'm not sure that would apply properly). My extension converted the damage from a damage action over into an effect when the players used it. So they would use their ray of enfeeblement to deal 1d6+1/2 CL (5) damage of the 'strength' type to the NPC and FG would translate it into something like 'STR: -5'.

I don't know how any of this could be done with FG as it is now.

[Blackfoot]

I still don't think that handling it differently for players and npcs is a good idea. It's not clean, clear, and simple for the end user... that's the most important thing.

[Nickademus]

I agree. Then again, I don't think having NPC stat handled differently than PCs is a good idea.