Custom Character Sheet: Help Wanted [Archive] - Fantasy Grounds Message Boards

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Wolfheart

May 1st, 2015, 22:51

Hello, I've been trying to read up on all the (for me) extremely difficult jargon that is needed to customize a character sheet.
I've gotten so far as figuring out how to use WinZip and Notepad++ to open .pak-files and .xml-files, not bad for an old man.

I'm not going to change everything around, I don't have the patience for it I think, but I'd like, at least at first, to simply change the names of some of the items found on the character sheet in the CoreRPG.

I've copied the CoreRPG.pak file all the way to the other side of the hard drive to be sure. At first I thought that, in the editor, all I had to do was rename the items in question.

I went into the "character notes" file first. I wanted to change "race" to "nationality", so I replaced that word ("race") with "nationality", saved, copied back to the rulesets folder, fired up FG, and... nothing?

I guess what I'm asking is, "Can anyone please help me understand how I can change the actual on-screen words used on the character sheet. Preferably without too much computery words."

[I did, by magic, somehow change the width of some of the items on the Notes tab - race, age, gender, height, weight, but the words I had replaced were gone - both the original CoreRPG words /terms and my replacements..

I know this is probably the noobest post you ever read, but bear with me, I'm willing to learn, if slowly. ;)

Trenloe

May 1st, 2015, 23:00

I guess what I'm asking is, "Can anyone please help me understand how I can change the actual on-screen words used on the character sheet. Preferably without too much computery words."
There's usually (99% of the time) a <textres> or a <labelres> entry for a control that displays some words in a window. These <textres> or <labelres> values tie in with an entry in the files in the \strings directory. For example, strings\strings_campaign.xml contains the entry for race: <string name="char_label_race">RACE</string>

char_label_race is what the actual control in the interface refers to in it's <labelres> entry (in campaign\record_char_notes.xml):

<string_labeled name="race">
<anchored to="detailframe" position="insidetopleft" offset="15,10" width="150" height="20" />
<labelres>char_label_race</labelres>
</string_labeled>

Wolfheart

May 1st, 2015, 23:07

Thank you for replying!
I replaced "race" with "nationality" like this:

<string_labeled name="nationality">
<anchored to="detailframe" position="insidetopleft" offset="15,10" width="150" height="20" />
<labelres>char_label_nationality</labelres>
</string_labeled>

When I open the ruleset in FG, it has nothing under the line where "nationality" should be - I don't understand what I'm doing wrong.

Wolfheart

May 1st, 2015, 23:09

Nevermind, I see it now. Thanks!!

damned

May 2nd, 2015, 00:01

its the labelres field that needs changing... almost - you need to locate the field char_label_nationality in the strings file and edit it there...
BUT
everytime there is an update to CoreRPG your changes will get overwritten...
you should try and learn how to make these changes as an extension.
if you have a look at the MoreCore extension you might find some examples of how to do that - I keep pointing people to that extension because it has some additional commenting that will likely be of help.

Wolfheart

May 2nd, 2015, 07:28

I've downloaded it, will check. But learning how to make a char sheet an extension will require even more dedication, right?
As for updates to coreRPG, does that matter when I'm changing a copy of its ruleset with a new file name?

Moon Wizard

May 2nd, 2015, 08:01

As long as it is has unique name in the rulesets folder (either a sub-folder or a PAK file), you are fine.

The guys were just mentioning that if you made changes and packaged them back up into CoreRPG.pak; then they would get overriden the next time you updated the FG software.

One note when building a new ruleset on top of CoreRPG (especially if you are replacing templates, scripts and/or windowclasses in CoreRPG) is to save off a copy of the current version of CoreRPG files to compare later as CoreRPG gets slowly revved to address bug fixes and add new features.

Regards,
JPG

damned

May 2nd, 2015, 08:08

Hi Wolfheart - you absolutely can change CoreRPG giving it a new Ruleset name.
What are some of the implications?
You wont get any updates/upgrades to CoreRPG.

In making it an extension you get the opposite.
Changes and updates to CoreRPG improve your ruleset but can also break it.

How to make an extension is fairly easy.
It has almost the same structure/format as the ruleset. You just replace the files - or even just the individual lines that you need yo override or add.
You can actually build your extension as a ruleset - or the otherway around.
There are about a dozen rulesets that are built on CoreRPG - 3.5, 4, 5, Numenera all ship with your Fantasy Grounds. These all layer on CoreRPG just like an extension would - I believe the only differences are you can only layer one ruleset and the ruleset always loads before any extensions. I hope that makes sense.

Moon Wizard

May 2nd, 2015, 08:55

You can actually layer rulesets as deep as you want. The PFRPG ruleset is actually layered on the 3.5E ruleset which is in turn layered on the CoreRPG ruleset.

Regards,
JPG

dulux-oz

May 2nd, 2015, 09:23

This might make things slightly easier to understand - as far a Rulesets and Extensions are concerned.

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?20794-Locations-(inc-Shops-amp-Towns)-Databse-Extension&p=209872&viewfull=1#post209872

Cheers

Wolfheart

May 2nd, 2015, 12:18

Hello Dulux-Oz,Champion Immortal, thank you for the link and the explanation there. You made it clear and it made sense, but my problem is that I shelled out for FG and I can *not* play my favorite RPG with it, hence I have begun tinkering - but it is quite a hassle, since I know so little of coding - most of the things mentioned here (and meant as helpful, and accepted gratefully) fly right over my head..but I *have* managed to fiddle enough to exchange certain label names and replace the decal.

My next problem - and I have tried a lot of different things, every time ending up breaking the ruleset (bad lines in the code, though I have no idea why or how) - is the inventory tab of the character sheet.

I would like to add a few more things below "Total Weight Carried".
Just a simple "Word: ___________________" addition, a few rows of those.
I thought maybe I should use subwindows, but that didn't work out.
I've been looking at other files to see how this is handled without getting any wiser.
I'm not asking anyone to do it for me, but pointing me to a handy guide with language aimed at noobs would be nice, or just some hints or whatever at what I need to do next :-D
I feel like a toddler learning to walk here...

BTW, now that I've modified the CoreRPG set (a different, safe copy ofc) and renamed it - how do I make it an extension? Just add ".ext" and throw it in the extension folder?

Thanks for bothering people, it's always nice to meet nice people and boy does this Fantasy Grounds thingy need nice people to vouch for it and help the newly arrived flotsam and jetsam (myself included) be dragged up on shore.

damned

May 2nd, 2015, 12:23

Have you watched this video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG9ovku3T48

There is so much that you can do with CoreRPG as is. Watch the video in full as it build as it goes.

Wolfheart

May 2nd, 2015, 12:27

Yes, I have watched it. Learned a few tricks there, but it's not enough :)

For example, for weapons, "my" character sheet needs:

NAME -- LENGTH -- ATN (C) -- DMG (C) -- ATN (T) -- DMG (T) -- DTN

That's seven columns for one weapon in the character inventory - it's a bit more of a complex RPG (at least when it comes to combat), and I love it to death, and so that's the game I want to use with FG. The "cosmetic" overhauls in the video aren't enough for me. I need to change the name of labels (I managed it; "Languages" is now "Gifts and Flaws", for example), and I need to create frames or windows for armor, weapons and stuff like that where I have several more columns. Now that I've started down this path, I'm only getting more eager to figure it out, though, so it's probably a good thing (except for my family, obviously).

Edit:
I don't need the automation, by the by - just fillable forms.

Wolfheart

May 2nd, 2015, 12:33

I'll be a little more specific -
here's the "Coin" form where I have changed the name to "Armor":

9786

Now, as I don't need these "checkboxes" to count up coins, I can probably get rid of the coding/script for that - I just need the boxes to fill (manually) in the Armor Value.
But I would like to remove the empty box next to it, and rather use that space to make a small table for the Armor section, something like this:

Armor Type
Armor Value
CP mod.
Other mod.

empty field to insert stats
empty field to insert stats

empty field to insert stats

empty field to insert stats
empty field to insert stats
empty field to insert stats
empty field to insert stats

So I'd have a field for ARMOR TYPE first, then checkbox for ARMOR VALUE, then two lines after it for the two modifier-stats.

damned

May 2nd, 2015, 15:19

Wolfheart

May 2nd, 2015, 15:37

Yeah, I noticed that. My initial solution was to simple make a table for each item type - there are three "combat items" types (melee, missile, and armor), each with their own table of peculiarities,
so I just made a template "Melee Weapon", with a table in it with the appropriately named columns. This I exported so that I can simply load up the templates and then link them to the character's inventory (as you suggest, it doesn't really go in the inventory).

The dice roll mechanics used in the game is Dice Pool vs TN, however for weapons it is usually a number derived from an Attribute (for example, Long Sword deals STRENGTH + 1 cutting damage.
The ATN (Attack Target Number is a static number "belonging" to the weapon in question - long sword has 5; the character rolls proficiency in the weapon + combat pool dice in any number he/she wants against that TN.

So, Length = the reach you have with a weapon (determines whether you get bonuses or penalties when fighting an opponent with a different reach)
ATN (C) = Attack Target Number, for cutting (slashing) attacks
DMG (C) = Damage done when using the weapon to cut/slash
ATN (T) = Attack Target Number, for thrusting (piercing) attacks
DMG (T) = You guessed it
DTN = Defense Target Number, the TN you need to hit with at least one D10 to succesfully use a defensive maneuver, such as Block or Parry.

damned

May 2nd, 2015, 15:55

so i think we talked about this on Steam... I think you can use the Rolls feature from the NPC sheet (morecore extension uses this) to add attack strings and you can add these values in as text - they get displayed with the roll result in the chat window.

Wolfheart

May 2nd, 2015, 18:05

I will try that. Thank you for your help, damned. Made my day :)

Wolfheart

May 2nd, 2015, 22:32

Trenloe

May 2nd, 2015, 22:47

Right, so I loaded up my copy and the character sheet was modified all right, but when I export the character sheet and try to load it up in the unmodified CoreRPG, the modifications are gone? Like, where Currency became Armor, it is now Currency again. Any ideas? I'm probably overlooking something as a noob properly should..
Exporting a character sheet just exports the data, not changes made to a character sheet format/labels/fields/etc. because these changes are made in the underlying ruleset code. This is why people have been recommending putting your code changes in an extension - so that you can load that extension with a CoreRPG campaign to use your custom code.

damned

May 3rd, 2015, 08:11

You now have a new ruleset. You should continue to use the new ruleset. We changed some fields, added new ones etc. Its no longer CoreRPG.

Wolfheart

May 3rd, 2015, 11:00

Aha, I understand - thanks! :) On that note, what is the easiest way to move all the data for my game from the campaign using the classic CoreRPG to my new version of the ruleset?

damned

May 3rd, 2015, 11:01

What is the data? Is it story entries?

Wolfheart

May 3rd, 2015, 11:04

Yes, just a bunch of notes. But I think I already know - I export it, right, and then import it?

Another question, it probably doesn't deserve a thread on its own, I see terms like FG, FGII and FGIII bandied about. So which one did I buy from Steam? Or are the numerals just representing major patches?

Wolfheart

May 3rd, 2015, 11:10

damned

May 3rd, 2015, 11:12

Fantasy Grounds II was the version for a long time (but it went thru many, many smaller releases during its life - it finished on something like 2.9.4) and it kind of became the way Fantasy Grounds was referred to. On Facebook its still Fantasy Grounds II for example.
After Fantasy Grounds 3 came out the numbers were dropped in most discussion/releases and its just called Fantasy Grounds now - although we are all using 3.0.13 (or 3.0.12 if you are slow to update). 3.1.0 will be the next update. If you have a subscription you are always entitled to the current version. If you bought outright you have a perpetual version and - at least at this stage - access to future updates. There will probably be some change to this when Fantasy Grounds 4 gets released but time will tell on that front.

For your content - export everythng - then open it up (unzip etc) and edit the Ruleset and repack... it should hopefully work... otherwise send it to me...

damned

May 3rd, 2015, 11:16

Oh and another another question - how doth the GMs using FG solve sharing music? (I'm of the variety that must have a soundtrack to the game; in RL I use movie scores a lot, which I either borrow entirely or which I cut and paste into pieces.)

Fantasy Grounds has no audio capability.
Many here use the FG Con community TeamSpeak server - there are a few threads on setting up a music channel on TS.
Many others use their own choice of voice chat server/service (ventrillo, skype, mumble etc) and they each have their own tricks to piping a music feed into the channel.
I played in a game with Trenloe at FG Con 6 and he had music (Star Wars) playing the whole time.

Trenloe

May 3rd, 2015, 15:53

Oh and another another question - how doth the GMs using FG solve sharing music? (I'm of the variety that must have a soundtrack to the game; in RL I use movie scores a lot, which I either borrow entirely or which I cut and paste into pieces.)
This is what I do: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?21290-Background-music-sound-effects-app-now-has-Paizo-Rise-of-the-Runelords-support&p=177622&viewfull=1#post177622

Also see the "Audio Tips" section here: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?21761-Playing-Aids&p=182730&viewfull=1#post182730

Trenloe

May 3rd, 2015, 15:57

On that note, what is the easiest way to move all the data for my game from the campaign using the classic CoreRPG to my new version of the ruleset?
If you want to move the whole campaign over (probably easier than exporting to a module - especially if you have some entries in the "Notes" section as these don't get exported), then the best way to do it is:

Go to the <FG App Data>\campaigns directory. Get to the <FG App Data> directory by pressing folder icon in the top right of the FG main startup screen.
Make a copy of the campaign you want to use in your custom ruleset. Rename the directory for the new copy what you want - this will be the campaign name.
Open up the copied directory and edit the campaign.xml file. Change the <ruleset> tag from CoreRPG to whatever your customer ruleset is called. Save campaign.xml
Open up FG and you should see your copied campaign that will load up with your custom ruleset.

Wolfheart

May 3rd, 2015, 18:27

Thanks for the input, I will try that, because, yes, I have like a gazillabillion notes..and I really don't feel like editing all of it again :) FG is trying its hardest to push me away, but I keep insisting this will be worth it down the line.
damned has been a, well, damned good help so far, helping me with the character sheet, but I still feel as blank as I did when buying the software when it comes to understanding much.
Maybe if I had ever been good at maths...

Edit:
Trenloe, thanks for the tip - it worked like a charm and you have scored a mighty 10 cool points! Great, that saved me another week of editing lol.

Edit 2:
I was thinking of writing a long semi-rant about how hard life as a FG-noob is but then again with the helpfulness here I found my wolvish heart not in it :p

Wolfheart

May 3rd, 2015, 20:05

...and another question...
I managed what Trenloe suggested by following his steps.
Now, I have everything in a modified CoreRPG ruleset, but when I try to export the character sheet (so that I can have a template instead of having to redo all those entries for each character), I get an error messag (after exporting succesfully, and trying to import the exported file back):

Database Error: A XML parse error occured processing file C:\ (followed by the path leading to the campaign folder)
Script Error: [string "scripts/manager_campaigndata.lua]: 98: import: Unable to parse file

Does anyone know what gives?

Wolfheart

May 3rd, 2015, 21:09

And not just that..
I exited the program to change the decal and when I re-enter, all campaign notes are suddenly gone again.
78 hours behind the screen and I'm still feeling like an idiot.
I'm about to give up and see what other VTTs can offer.
And I had already added a lot of new material after the excellent tip from Trenloe. Grumble.
I made a third copy, but the two hours I spent adding material seems to be lost in the ether.
A db. backupfile was made, but I don't know what that even is supposed to do (well, backup, of course, but wouldn't that be a backup of whatever went wrong?)

Trenloe

May 3rd, 2015, 21:22

I exited the program to change the decal and when I re-enter, all campaign notes are suddenly gone again.
Sorry, I'm going to ask a potentially stupid question here: are you sure you've gone back into the same campaign?

I'm about to give up and see what other VTTs can offer.
To be perfectly honest, you're probably going to have the same issues going to other VTTs. The thing here is that you've jumped straight under the covers and tried to essentially program the system as your first exposure to the software. Using FG as a GM has a steep learning curve, but it's well worth spending the time to get used to the software. Customising FG is doubly, if not triply more complex - with you jumping straight in at the deep end it's no wonder you're floundering and beginning to sink...

You shouldn't have lost your data - it should be there somewhere. Check that you're selecting the same campaign again when you go back in.

Wolfheart

May 3rd, 2015, 21:42

Thank you Trenloe, I guess that's what I needed to hear - and yes, I am sinking and that's frustrating obviously.
I'm a bit angry with the way the program was marketed ("With the CoreRPG you can play any RPG system" -- when it should have been, "With the CoreRPG you can potentially play your favorite system *if* you are savvy enough with xml and LUA, which is extremely difficult if you do not know the lingo or where to start"). My favorite game system uses dice pools versus target numbers - CoreRPG does not have this functionality. My system requires a radically different character sheet from the one in CoreRPG - I need programming skills to change it. Everything feel so extremely cumbersome, and restrictive, and I can live with it surely, and I am well aware that I'll be floundering for a long time.. hopefully the upgrade to Unity will make it easier for the developers to make FG truly a VTT where you can play the game of choice.
And, as I've said before, I'm not even asking for automation for my game (it's been out of print for who knows how long, so I can't expect any support anyway), but really, why aren't there tools within the software for GMs to alter character sheets completely? The field names on the character sheet - double-click and change the wording.

Now, with that off my chest I now managed to export a character sheet that actually wants to be imported back in. I wonder what hindrance is next on the list. Geez.
Sorry for the rant.

I did select the correct campaign, but everything was gone. There was a quick flash of a window with some red letters and I didn't manage to read what it said because either I accidentally clicked it away or it went off all by its lonesome,
but I'm rebuilding what I added in the *third* copy (sigh).

Who knows, maybe one of these days I'll actually run a game with it, lol. 80 hours and still not used it for gaming.

Again, thank you for the help.

damned

May 3rd, 2015, 23:23

Edit 2:
I was thinking of writing a long semi-rant about how hard life as a FG-noob is but then again with the helpfulness here I found my wolvish heart not in it :p

Please also remember that 98.7% of FG-noobs dont try and create/edit their own ruleset... at least not until they are way more comfortable! Most people play one of the core or community rulesets.
So your perspective on the challenge level is valid but no one commonly experienced by most new users :)

damned

May 3rd, 2015, 23:25

damned

May 3rd, 2015, 23:31

I'm a bit angry with the way the program was marketed ("With the CoreRPG you can play any RPG system" -- when it should have been, "With the CoreRPG you can potentially play your favorite system *if* you are savvy enough with xml and LUA, which is extremely difficult if you do not know the lingo or where to start"). My favorite game system uses dice pools versus target numbers - CoreRPG does not have this functionality. My system requires a radically different character sheet from the one in CoreRPG - I need programming skills to change it. Everything feel so extremely cumbersome, and restrictive, and I can live with it surely, and I am well aware that I'll be floundering for a long time.. hopefully the upgrade to Unity will make it easier for the developers to make FG truly a VTT where you can play the game of choice.

I honestly dont think that you are getting/understanding how to use the Skills Tab on CoreRPG.
Im looking at the Character Sheet that you sent thru for Riddle of Steel and I reckon *most* items can be setup on CoreRPG without editing anything.
Not perfectly Im sure - but pretty effectively.

Moon Wizard

May 3rd, 2015, 23:31

I know you are having challenges with what you are specifically trying to do, and I'm glad that the community is pitching in. I've been monitoring the thread as well, in case I can add anything.

One thing on the CoreRPG ruleset is that you can use it to play any game. The CoreRPG ruleset is very generic and provides some general RPG functionality. Specifically, on the character sheet, you can set up character attributes and attribute groups, track inventory and notes. That is usually enough for most game systems as a basic character sheet. Once you have built the basics of a character sheet attributes, you can export that unfilled character sheet as a template for future characters.

However, if you want to build out a specific look to any of the windows, or lay out your character sheet a specific way, or customize how rolls are handled for the game system, then, yes, it will take a little or a lot of XML/Lua work, depending on what you are trying to do. One of the strengths of Fantasy Grounds is that this kind of customization is even possible.

I would suggest that you actually use it as a vanilla CoreRPG experience in a game session before you spend all the time customizing, or at least, join in a few games to see how it works.

Regards,
JPG

Wolfheart

May 4th, 2015, 09:26

Hi JPG, thanks for saying hi :)
I know I'm in the deep end. I was tired yesterday, too. Now I'm ready for tinkering again. Don't take any of it personally please. I know you guys are doing your best and FG has many great qualities.

Wolfheart

May 4th, 2015, 09:34

And what do you know, loading it up and once again all the story and notes are empty. And I haven't done anything to the files since I shut down last night.
I can send you the file, damned, but only if you have the time or inclination. Otherwise I'll try and figure it out myself. But I am thankful.

Here is the message I got when loading up the campaign today:

"Error while loading campaign database.
A XML parse error occurred during processing file db.xml – Error on line 734: Error: Empty tag.
Back up of original database file saved to: ..."

Line 734 in the db.xml file doesn't look empty to me - just

<dice type="dice"></dice>

which looks just like the other lines with that same information

(Incidentally, I'm about to run a game now with Roll20. Two clicks and I'm off. I was hoping to have my FG running on the 2nd monitor with all my notes but alas.)

Trenloe

May 4th, 2015, 14:02

Nylanfs

May 4th, 2015, 14:06

People have reported strange data corruption using cloud sync tools directly on their FG data, they're not recommended.

Except for transporting from system to system. ie copying your campaign folder into the cloud drive AFTER play and copying out of drive into new system works just fine.

Wolfheart

May 4th, 2015, 14:14

How are you entering the notes? Are you using the campaign "notes" functionality, or are you using the campaign "story" functionality. For a GM you should really be using the "story" entries, notes are more for the players.

If you're using "notes", are you entering them directly as the GM or are you entering them from another instance of FG (essentially as a player)? Notes are tied to the username that created them, so I'm wondering if you are joining the game with a different name?

How are you storing your FG data directory? Is it in a directory that is synced to a cloud storage service like Google drive, Dropbox, one drive, etc.? People have reported strange data corruption using cloud sync tools directly on their FG data, they're not recommended.

Well, I've written core information in notes, one note for each rule for example, and then in Story I have made a wiki-like structure; First a row of links, "Chapter 1", "Chapter 2" etc- and in each Chapter more links, e.g. "Proficiencies", "Maneuvers", "Skills", and then links to the core notes from there (the Skills note, for example links to a list of skills, which I can click to find the relevant skill.)
It sounds convoluted but has worked very fine for me as a campaign management tool next to the Roll20 window (I have to use Roll20 because my game depends on exploding dice and target numbers).

I still have it when I load my first campaign in "Core RPG" but with damned's help I got a variant which I called "Riddle", in which he put code for me to give this ruleset its own character sheet.
Then I did as you said and copied the campaign folder, renamed it, went into the xml file and changed it from "CoreRPG" to "Riddle", loaded up, worked fine, continued to work in the new ruleset, creating the five adventurers, entered all their details, logged off, everything gone, logged back on, everything back except the character sheet information, tried to fix it, failed, created the characters all over again, added some more material, logged off, came back today, everything gone again including all my notes and stuff.

The directory is not synced. Its located where FG wants to be (App/Roaming)

Wolfheart

May 4th, 2015, 14:22

Not that it really matters...testing the connection results in epic failure anyway. But it *is* nice as a second monitor GM tool for keeping stuff in one place instead of a gazillion web browser windows which take up more memory.

Trenloe

May 4th, 2015, 14:28

On the first FG screen what do you see in the top right hand corner under the folder icon? Is it v3.0.13? v3.0.13 Ultimate? v3.0.13 Free?

You might be having file access issues (actually, this sounds exactly what you're having), so try running FG as administrator - right-click on the start icon and select "Run As Administrator".

Wolfheart

May 4th, 2015, 14:41

It says "v.3.0.13"
(yesterday it said "ULTIMATE")
I'll try out what you suggest, but I have FG on Steam though.

Edit:
Nope, no difference.

Trenloe

May 4th, 2015, 14:51

It says "v.3.0.13"
(yesterday it said "ULTIMATE")
The "full" upgrade to ultimate for the duration of FG Con VI (and a bit oafter) has just been switched off, so you're back to a full licence.

Nope, no difference.
Running as Administrator will only wholly work going forwards - i.e. for data you've added while running as administrator, if the old data is truly gone it won't help get that back. I'm traveling with work this week, otherwise I'd offer to have a look at your campaign XML to try to work out why this is happening... Perhaps someone else will offer.

Wolfheart

May 4th, 2015, 14:58

Thank you for the offer :) damned is helping me out.
I can live with having to go through everything one more time, though.
Do you suggest I only use FG as Administrator?

Trenloe

May 4th, 2015, 15:03

Do you suggest I only use FG as Administrator?
Until we work out what's causing your data loss, yes.

Wolfheart

May 4th, 2015, 16:44

damned worked his magic :)
(and to me, it really does feel like magic, lol)

damned

May 5th, 2015, 03:32

Trenloe

May 5th, 2015, 03:45

What was the cause of the issue?

damned

May 5th, 2015, 03:58

in Wolfhearts custom ruleset he wanted to change Coins to Armor (yeah he spells it all icky). So when I did that and added a couple of extra fields I renamed all the fields so they were no longer coin.slot1.something but armor.slot1.something
I deleted the <coins></coins> sections from the characters in the campaign and it opened fine without crashing. I just resent him the modified db.xml.
Curiously - I would have thought that it would just ignore those extra fields... i know when im building character sheets and the DB schema is constantly changing it doesnt crash on me and lose db data. Also he has reported that when he imports his exported characters back in it loses data again. I cant replicate this with the same exported characters - either with <coins></coins> or without... I suspect there is something else happening on his specific setup...

Wolfheart

May 5th, 2015, 11:58

hi Wolfheart - we have your data and it works now under the new campaign. I also imported your xml characters and closed and reopened FG without issue and without Data Loss.
I can see ehy you were distressed about losing all that data - there is a lot of it!
Also do you understand how the tables work? The tables are rollable if you set them up right.
And convert your images to JPG 40% compression and you will reduce the campaign from 15MB to 3MB (or less).

Again, as I said in the email, I am very thankful for your kind help, damned. If you're ever on the other side of the planet I'll buy you a beer or ten.
If I have to send campaign data again, I'll remove the images :D Would 40% compression reduce quality of images to any visible extent?
Those images were just there anyway.
But yeah, now you know why I was frustrated.
As for tables, yes I do. I'm setting up a campaign for D&D 5th at the same time (well I haven't done much with it as all time has gone into The Riddle of Steel) and for D&D the table is excellent.
Also made a couple of tables based on generic gamebooks, like the must-have "Ultimate Toolbox".
But again, in The Riddle of Steel, there are no random tables as such (very few of them), but a lot of reference tables. I found it easier to just put them in FG's table system
than make tables on Notes and CTRL+TAB click my way through each cell.

Wolfheart

May 5th, 2015, 11:59

Hey, if you want to change it to Armour, be my guest :D Not my fault the game is American, eh. I sent you the exported files.

Wolfheart

May 5th, 2015, 21:23

His magic was unfortunately short-lived.
I think I'm throwing in the towel with this software.
It looks good, picking up a die is nice instead of just a click, but there it ends.
I can't use my favorite game system with FG.

Nowhere that I have looked have I seen a big warning sign saying, "When you export your campaign, even though you specifically click on the "Story" and "Notes" buttons, you lose everything you added to "Story" and "Notes" because", was there ever anything more counter-intuitive than being able to export "Story" and "Notes" and then you have to be told by other users that this doesn't work?

The game sells itself as "you can play any RPG" and it doesn't even have variant uses of dice. In an RPG emulator!!! No dice against target numbers for The Riddle of Steel, no differently colored dice for Star Wars D6 (two examples).

There are no basic XML for Dummies guides, you have to already have a degree in quantum physics just to be able to understand what little reference material there is for trying to customize the experience.

FG is tailored for D20 games, and should be marketed as such, and weirdos like myself can avoid burning our hands.

Everything about FG screams non-friendly to a gamer who doesn't play D20 games (I *know*, I can play D&D with it, but I want to play something else and the program, according to the advertisements, can let me do that).

Fine. So I start manually feeding FG with all my stuff. I begin with the core rulebook. Because The Riddle of Steel can get pretty complex during combat, I want those rules handy. I spend hours on it. I like doing it, so that's not a complaint, by the way. I'm a natural born geek, no probs. Even when I have to comb through everything and format text (not that I had to do it with the corebook - I manually rewrote the damn thing from my physical copy. Blood sweat tears.)

Why are there no buttons that allow me to change it to suit my game? Why can't I simple erase text and replace it? Why do I have to be a programmer to be able to do this?
I don't understand why FG has to have such a restrictive interface. At least have a number of variant sheets so the user can pick and choose to make life easier.

And now I'm sitting here again, for the fourth time I believe, with an empty FG, notes and story all gone. Also, in that time, not once been able to make a connection with the software. It's just ridiculous how hard this program works to make me go away, almost as ridiculous as the fact I'm still hanging on hoping that somehow it will get better.

And maybe it will after the unity port. I'll check back on it by then, though I have not found an ETA anywhere.

"A XML parse error occured during processing file db.xml - Error on line 302 - Error: empty tag."

What does it even mean?

I know this became a rant and probably not very constructive after all. I would like nothing more than for FG to succeed. But it thwarts me all the way.
No dice versus TN.
No real-time map building using tiles.
No logic in the way "Story" and "Notes" are set up.
Tables: Only one type of table.
No different dice.
Dice can only be rolled on a small area of the screen as opposed to the entire screen /"tabletop" (no result of the roll displayed when rolling outside the narrow boundaries
No in-game character sheet editing functions. And I mean editing the sheet itself, of course.
No in-built system for transmitting audio or video.
NPC sheet also not very user-friendly (as in, actually customizable without being a professor)
No sound (dice need to clatter, please)

Now, if I didn't stumble upon new problems every time I load up FG, as in losing data continually, needing expert help from Australia just to change "Languages" to "Armor" (armour!!) on the character sheet, ...sigh.

Yes, I am aware I can't have it all. But it seems I can't even use FG for storing my campaign notes and rulebooks, which is handy on a second monitor, with Roll20 running effortlessly on the first monitor, ugly as it is.

When Moon Wizard states that the ability to customize FG [with xml-coding/LUA scripting] is its strength, I'm tempted to say its a weakness. When the program is advertised as "can be used to play any RPG", I'm tempted to say its a patently false statement, or, at least, a white lie.

Just the time it took to figure out how to change the background image of the tabletop! Instead of a button in-game called "Select Background"...I just don't get it. Why does FG have to be so darn difficult, and why am I still here.

Of course, my money is now gone, and I am stuck with a program I thought would make online gaming a better experience, and yet, 80+ hours in I'm still in the same loop.

Yes. I shouldn't have dived straight into xml/LUA without a degree.

My plea to FG's makers is to re-evaluate how you advertise your software, and to at the very least have an in-game tutorial which explains things that I feel you can't expect to know going in, such as, particularly, the fact that exporting your "Story" and "Notes" files leads to exporting nothing. No, not videos on the web, or user-made guides but a tutorial that warns you of the pitfalls, explains what FG can and can't do. Perhaps videos embedded in the software (as links, or better, in a video folder stored in the FG folder).

Right. Rant finished.
I feel bad for submitting this reply, but it has to be said.
I would like to thank trenloe and in particular damned for trying to help out a frustrated non-programming GM.
Not going to ask for a refund, as I'm holding out hope that the unity port will make FG into a realistic competitor in the super-narrow field of VTTs.

I'm going back to using Scrivener for campaign notes (it really is a handy software, and easier on the eyes than 10,000 notes anyway; perhaps something like Scrivener's way of arranging information could be inspirational for the next version of FG) and Roll20 where I can have exploding dice against a TN by clicking two buttons and off the dice fly toward victory and a red dawn.

Trenloe

May 5th, 2015, 23:09

Sorry you're having issues and are obviously frustrated. I haven't spent the time to read the whole of your reply as I think it will just depress me and potentially make me angry with some of your frustrated comments that are, sorry, simply inaccurate: e.g. saying that FG is tailored for d20 games - there are many, many people who play Savage Worlds, Rolemaster, BRP, Call of Cthulhu, Fate, Star Wars: Edge of the Empire (which is as far from a d20 based game as you can possible get), the list goes on.

Rest assured the data loss you are having is not normal behavior of the software, so there's no need for a big warning sign. There seems to be something up with your installation that is causing these issues. I've used the functionality you are trying to use hundreds of times and *never* encountered anything like this. I know it doesn't help you by me saying that, but it's the truth.

You're not using any strange characters in your campaign name are you? Things like the colon : and other such characters can cause issues with the campaign data saving.

What module name and filename do you use when exporting? Could you provide a screenshot of the export window used to export an empty module?

Does the same issue happen with a base CoreRPG campaign (i.e. with none of your customizations)?

damned

May 6th, 2015, 00:20

Wolfheart - I havent got time right now to reply to the whole post. When loading your backup DB it tells you the problem is with line 302.
You have creaed an XML tag using an invalid character:

Concept/Philosophy

The use of the / in your tag is invalid.
Change that in your rule set to concept-philosophy.

Trenloe

May 6th, 2015, 02:36

I'd *really* recommend running the FG console to see if there are any warnings/errors. Type /console in the chat window and pay attention to any reported errors/warnings that appear. It will automatically pop up if there are any errors - I'm surprised it wasn't popping up telling you there was a problem with your DB xml at line 302.

damned

May 6th, 2015, 05:22

His magic was unfortunately short-lived.
I think I'm throwing in the towel with this software.
It looks good, picking up a die is nice instead of just a click, but there it ends.
I can't use my favorite game system with FG.

You can - and there are two ways to do it. You can do it within the existing framework or you can write an extension or edit CoreRPG. Both require some learning.

Nowhere that I have looked have I seen a big warning sign saying, "When you export your campaign, even though you specifically click on the "Story" and "Notes" buttons, you lose everything you added to "Story" and "Notes" because", was there ever anything more counter-intuitive than being able to export "Story" and "Notes" and then you have to be told by other users that this doesn't work?

I didnt see anyone to click on Notes in the Export routine? Story exports and exports fine. Notes is intended for Players. Story is intended for GM use. You can use Notes if you like but to transfer them to another campaign will require some XML work.

The game sells itself as "you can play any RPG" and it doesn't even have variant uses of dice. In an RPG emulator!!! No dice against target numbers for The Riddle of Steel, no differently colored dice for Star Wars D6 (two examples).

It has lots of variant use of dice. It doesnt have all variant uses but to say it doesnt have variants is wrong. I think it should have more. It will have more but the timeframe is uncertain.

There are no basic XML for Dummies guides, you have to already have a degree in quantum physics just to be able to understand what little reference material there is for trying to customize the experience.

Read that again. Did you honestly think about that when you wrote it? I dont know too many people who have let their lack of a Quantum Physics degree stop them learning some XML. This is a platform. It doesnt have to include lessons in programming in standard languages.

FG is tailored for D20 games, and should be marketed as such, and weirdos like myself can avoid burning our hands.

No one here thinks your weird. Were role players - were ALL a little weird. FG is not tailored to a specific type of RPG.

Everything about FG screams non-friendly to a gamer who doesn't play D20 games (I *know*, I can play D&D with it, but I want to play something else and the program, according to the advertisements, can let me do that).

You can. You need to either learn how to do it within the FG CoreRPG framework or learn some XML first and later some LUA. And as you might have noticed people here will help you when you ask.

Fine. So I start manually feeding FG with all my stuff. I begin with the core rulebook. Because The Riddle of Steel can get pretty complex during combat, I want those rules handy. I spend hours on it. I like doing it, so that's not a complaint, by the way. I'm a natural born geek, no probs. Even when I have to comb through everything and format text (not that I had to do it with the corebook - I manually rewrote the damn thing from my physical copy. Blood sweat tears.)

Why are there no buttons that allow me to change it to suit my game? Why can't I simple erase text and replace it? Why do I have to be a programmer to be able to do this?
I don't understand why FG has to have such a restrictive interface. At least have a number of variant sheets so the user can pick and choose to make life easier.

And now I'm sitting here again, for the fourth time I believe, with an empty FG, notes and story all gone. Also, in that time, not once been able to make a connection with the software. It's just ridiculous how hard this program works to make me go away, almost as ridiculous as the fact I'm still hanging on hoping that somehow it will get better.

This is a program that does XYZ and you want to do things your own way. Fine. You can. But you need to learn how. You sent me overnight a new db backup file. What you didnt tell me what you had also made more ruleset changes. Its fine - you can make all the changes you like - but share that info with me so I can see the full picture. When i loaded up your db file it pops up and tells me where the first error is. Removing /Philosphy 2x and the db loads with all your data. Though on your system it will stuff up again because its syntactically incorrect - hence the error.

And maybe it will after the unity port. I'll check back on it by then, though I have not found an ETA anywhere.

There isnt one. Its a huge task and its underway. Even then - Unity will likely use the same programming methods etc. I have other game development tools and they also use XML and LUA. i havent spent any time on them because I have no more time to spend. But with those applications I can create the most amazing and realistic 3 FPS style games/environments - but I have to learn how. FG gives you both options. Use CoreRPG or learn some code.

"A XML parse error occured during processing file db.xml - Error on line 302 - Error: empty tag."

What does it even mean?

Exactly - What does it mean? Open the file and scroll down to line 302 with any XML aware editing app and /Philopshy will be highlighted. You will see all XML tags are opened <tag> and closed </tag> the same way. Your edit was incorrect. Thats ok. Its no big deal. Thats how you learn. Im a XML and LUA noob. Totally. But with guidance from others here Im starting to be able to do stuff here. I did a MaelstromRPG ruleset port (with some help from Trenloe and IanMWard). If I can do it.... those dots are not aimed at you - they are a reflection on me. I suck something royal at programming. Take a look at the MaelstromRPG and tell me you cant play your own game if you wanted to.

I know this became a rant and probably not very constructive after all. I would like nothing more than for FG to succeed. But it thwarts me all the way.
No dice versus TN.
No real-time map building using tiles.
No logic in the way "Story" and "Notes" are set up.
Tables: Only one type of table.
No different dice.
Dice can only be rolled on a small area of the screen as opposed to the entire screen /"tabletop" (no result of the roll displayed when rolling outside the narrow boundaries
No in-game character sheet editing functions. And I mean editing the sheet itself, of course.
No in-built system for transmitting audio or video.
NPC sheet also not very user-friendly (as in, actually customizable without being a professor)
No sound (dice need to clatter, please)

Now, if I didn't stumble upon new problems every time I load up FG, as in losing data continually, needing expert help from Australia just to change "Languages" to "Armor" (armour!!) on the character sheet, ...sigh.

Yes, I am aware I can't have it all. But it seems I can't even use FG for storing my campaign notes and rulebooks, which is handy on a second monitor, with Roll20 running effortlessly on the first monitor, ugly as it is.

When Moon Wizard states that the ability to customize FG [with xml-coding/LUA scripting] is its strength, I'm tempted to say its a weakness. When the program is advertised as "can be used to play any RPG", I'm tempted to say its a patently false statement, or, at least, a white lie.

Just the time it took to figure out how to change the background image of the tabletop! Instead of a button in-game called "Select Background"...I just don't get it. Why does FG have to be so darn difficult, and why am I still here.

Skipped a bit - running out of time.

Of course, my money is now gone, and I am stuck with a program I thought would make online gaming a better experience, and yet, 80+ hours in I'm still in the same loop.

If you really cant see any light - then do stop. You know what the definition of Insanity is.

Yes. I shouldn't have dived straight into xml/LUA without a degree.

My plea to FG's makers is to re-evaluate how you advertise your software, and to at the very least have an in-game tutorial which explains things that I feel you can't expect to know going in, such as, particularly, the fact that exporting your "Story" and "Notes" files leads to exporting nothing. No, not videos on the web, or user-made guides but a tutorial that warns you of the pitfalls, explains what FG can and can't do. Perhaps videos embedded in the software (as links, or better, in a video folder stored in the FG folder).

Right. Rant finished.
I feel bad for submitting this reply, but it has to be said.
I would like to thank trenloe and in particular damned for trying to help out a frustrated non-programming GM.
Not going to ask for a refund, as I'm holding out hope that the unity port will make FG into a realistic competitor in the super-narrow field of VTTs.

I'm going back to using Scrivener for campaign notes (it really is a handy software, and easier on the eyes than 10,000 notes anyway; perhaps something like Scrivener's way of arranging information could be inspirational for the next version of FG) and Roll20 where I can have exploding dice against a TN by clicking two buttons and off the dice fly toward victory and a red dawn.

You want FG to be something that its not. I find FG frustrating plenty of times too - I wish it were easier to do some of the things I want it to do. But if it was - then it probably couldnt do the really cool things that it can. Dumbing the coding down for your and my benefit would lessen the power of this platform.

Dont leave with a sour taste in your mouth. Be patient and work thru it together - or go, hopefully understanding that the challenge is more about a misconception in how to tackle this. Most people dont pick up a brand new platform and want to dive in under the hood and know how everything works.

regards
Damian

Wolfheart

May 6th, 2015, 06:54

Sorry for last night's devolving into a putrid pile of malcontent. I'm better now. The hard feelings toward FG was a momentary thing. All right, nothing to see here, moving on. Embarassing.

Wolfheart

May 6th, 2015, 07:49

Also, I managed to fix those tags in the db file, so now I'm hoping it will work from now on ;)
Again my apologies for that outburst.

dulux-oz

May 6th, 2015, 10:46

Also, I managed to fix those tags in the db file, so now I'm hoping it will work from now on ;)
Again my apologies for that outburst.

I've been following along for a while now, and its about time I spoke up - not just for Wolfheart's sake but for all of the FGer's out there, in an attempt to help save some frustrations - to help people adjust their expectations to what is realistic, in addition to what is possible (its possible for me to walk from NY to LA, but realistically...). Its not meant to discourage anyone, because it is possible!

Please note, Wolfheart, that this is NOT aimed at you nor is it meant as an "attack" on you or anyone else.

For the record, so that people know where I'm coming from and in the interest of full disclosure: I don't have any commercial links with SW or anyone involved. I am producing a Ruleset on commission for a group of FGers. I have over 25 years experience in ICT in a number of roles ranging from Help Desk through to CIO, including in coding (programming). I've taught ICT at University. I've also produced a couple of Extensions which I've made public for my fellow FGer's. So I think its safe to claim that I know what I'm doing, yes?

OK, I've said before what I'm about to say in a number of other threads (in one form or another) - if you want to learn how to mod a piece of software (ANY piece of software, not just FG) you are going to need to learn to program! Learning to program is like learning anything worthwhile: it takes time and effort. Good programmers earn substantial hourly rates because they've invested time and effort into learning how to be a programmer. Programmers start by learning the basic theories (even if they don't know they're doing this) and by starting small. Starting small in FG means making a basic Extension or a basic Module, not diving straight in and trying to create a fully fledged, all the bells & whistles Ruleset as their first project.

Don't bight off more than you can chew, people.

This doesn't means you can't create a fully fledged Ruleset straight off, but it does mean that it'll take time and effort because you will need to learn how. One of the great things about FG is the Community - the Community will help you, all you have to do is ask, and someone will provide an answer. Trenloe is particular good, and Damned helps out a lot too. There are also many others.

Someone, either on this thread or in another one, came up with the analogy of FG being like a Gaming Console. This means that the Rulesets are like the Games that we play on the Gaming Console. Would you expect to be able to write a fully-fledged game (like Halo, for eg) as your very first foray into Gaming Consoles? I think you get my point.

Some people have also asked (that's putting it politely) for a Tutorial of some sort on how to produce Rulesets, etc. Despite my previous statements in other threads saying that this can't be done effectively, I'm actually working on something right now in this regard - it won't be available for a while and it won't be quick or short (incidentally, if anyone would like to "volunteer" to "proof-read/watch" the damn thing(s), please let me know). The reason I'm doing this are many: some selfish and some altruistic.

SW doesn't false advertise - they state clearly that FG can be use to play any RPG, and it can. You can play any RPG using the CoreRPG Ruleset - it just won't have all the bells and whistles (automation, etc, etc). FG also can be moded by using XML and LUA - SW says so in their advertising. The assumption that is made is that the moder will know XML and LUA - that they'll already know how to program, or that they'll be willing to learn.

None of this is meant to discourage anyone from wanting to produce Rulesets or Extensions, but simply to say that you will need to learn how to do it, and the learning will take time. To use an analogy: first you learn to crawl, then you learn to walk, then you learn to run, then you learn to run a marathon - how many people who don't know how to crawl enter (let alone finish) the New York City Marathon?

Learn to crawl first, people. There are plenty of people on these forums who are willing to help you learn, but learn to crawl first!

Cheers

Wolfheart

May 6th, 2015, 11:31

Dulux-Oz, if you want someone to read it who has little knowledge - to see if I can grasp what you are trying to convey - I'll happily help you out.
Thank your for your input, as well.

I'm making small steps. Today I managed to build my own calendar with my own month names, number of days, and holidays from my campaign setting, all with only one error, which I managed to fix. So that felt good.

You can say that FG can play any RPG, but in the same sense I can say that Facebook can play any RPG, or Skype, or any other communication software. The problem is that FG is specifically designed to cater to the RPG crowd and then I'd argue that the program at the very least should have a few in-built options like customizable character sheet (it has *some* customization, but not enough to be useful - In my opinion, since this is a VTT, I should be able to open a completely blank Character Sheet, and it should allow me to add or remove as many tabs I'd like, and name them what I'd like, and I should be able to name whatever I want on the sheets themselves, and arrange this to taste (box sizes, box content etc.) - in other words, being able to do basic things with the software without being forced into the coding part. Now, that being said, I admit it's a guilty pleasure to be tinkering with the nuts and bolts and trying to figure it out. The hard way ;)
Suppose a hardcore fan of Star Wars D6 buys FG, because, after all "you can play any RPG with it or create any RPG". The first thing he'll want is a table with only six-sided dice. Instead he has a set of polyhedral dice. Okay, he thinks, I will have to live with that...so he looks for the button where he can change the color of the dice so as to make a wild die (when you roll in Star Wars, one of your D6 is a different color, denoting it as a wild die). He can't find it, he can barely figure out how to do anything, in fact, as much seems counterintuitive. Oh well, he can always roll that one die after rolling the others, that's just a few extra clicks per roll.
Next up he wants to begin editing characters. He finally figures out how to edit the sheets, but he can't find a way to rename labels, or add his own. He would also like to have a more Star Warsy feel to the interface, instead of the fantasy style. Again, there is nowhere to go (within the program!) to find out how to do this. He has to exit the program and go onto the Internet and seek out information. OF COURSE with a program like this you will need to seek out some advice and tutorials, but still.
So yes, you can play ANY game and in the case of SW in such a roundabout way that you can as well just play across Skype and center your webcam on the dice so the players can see what they roll.
That is why I am saying there's something inherently wrong when claiming that FG can be used for any game, because you do indeed need to go into the nuts and bolts to get it to do something vaguely similar to what you want (still not even talking about automation, although it's a nice feature for D&D players).
This would be like selling your game "Pillars of Eternity" and saying "You can create your own characters!" and then when entering the game there is only one or two premade characters to choose from - and to make your own characters you have to learn the programming and code of the game..
perhaps a bad analogy.
It reminds me of Obi-Wan Kenobi's "What I told you was true...from a certain point of view" and that "certain point of view" is what's giving me hard feelings, I guess. But hey, I'm not nearly as frustrated today as I was last night, when I thought I had lost everything again (to a simple little error in the syntax), and now I'm up and running and it all seems to be working fine (until I've rebuilt my characters for the third time, that is, maybe it'll begin to huff and puff again).

When you say "bells and whistles", do you really mean that the dice set, for example, is enough to promote FG as the ultimate VTT you'll ever need? Because there's a lot of different RPGs and many require different variations of dice. I know there's a community ruleset for Star Wars: Edge of Empire (or whatever it's called), which uses weird dice - again, you need programming skills.

You seem to ignore the fact that when I fired up FG for the first time and looked forward to using it, I was not able to roll 6d10 against a TN, with 10s rerolled (exploding). This fact = you can't play any game with FG.

And please don't take this as an attack on you either, I may be wrong you may be right, it's an interesting discussion for sure.
Perhaps not the kind of thread the men behind FG want potential newcomers to see, though.

dulux-oz

May 6th, 2015, 12:14

Dulux-Oz, if you want someone to read it who has little knowledge - to see if I can grasp what you are trying to convey - I'll happily help you out.
Thank your for your input, as well.

You're welcome.

I'm making small steps. Today I managed to build my own calendar with my own month names, number of days, and holidays from my campaign setting, all with only one error, which I managed to fix. So that felt good.

Excellent!

You can say that FG can play any RPG, but in the same sense I can say that Facebook can play any RPG, or Skype, or any other communication software. The problem is that FG is specifically designed to cater to the RPG crowd and then I'd argue that the program at the very least should have a few in-built options like customizable character sheet (it has *some* customization, but not enough to be useful - In my opinion, since this is a VTT, I should be able to open a completely blank Character Sheet, and it should allow me to add or remove as many tabs I'd like, and name them what I'd like, and I should be able to name whatever I want on the sheets themselves, and arrange this to taste (box sizes, box content etc.) - in other words, being able to do basic things with the software without being forced into the coding part. Now, that being said, I admit it's a guilty pleasure to be tinkering with the nuts and bolts and trying to figure it out. The hard way ;)

The cogent term in that paragraph is "in my opinion" - which is neither right nor wrong, but is, as you say, your opinion. Other people have different opinions as to what a piece of software like this should be able to do "out of the box" - no matter what "level" of customization was included someone would be unhappy because it didn't live up to their opinion of what it should do - personally, my opinion is that using a flat-file XML store for the database is a "bad idea" and that it should use a proper RDMS database; but that's not my call, and it also brings up a different set of issues that would need to be resolved - but I digress.

As far as playing via Skype and Facebook: yes, we could do that. We could also simply play via thew telephone - I put it to you, however, that using a VTT (any VTT) is a much better option that anything else because even at its most basic a VTT incorporates features that Facebook/Skype/the telephone don't come anywhere near.

Suppose a hardcore fan of Star Wars D6 buys FG, because, after all "you can play any RPG with it or create any RPG". The first thing he'll want is a table with only six-sided dice. Instead he has a set of polyhedral dice. Okay, he thinks, I will have to live with that...so he looks for the button where he can change the color of the dice so as to make a wild die (when you roll in Star Wars, one of your D6 is a different color, denoting it as a wild die). He can't find it, he can barely figure out how to do anything, in fact, as much seems counterintuitive. Oh well, he can always roll that one die after rolling the others, that's just a few extra clicks per roll.

Actually, I've played WEG Star Wars with FG numerous times, using only the CoreRPG, without any problems :)

Next up he wants to begin editing characters. He finally figures out how to edit the sheets, but he can't find a way to rename labels, or add his own. He would also like to have a more Star Warsy feel to the interface, instead of the fantasy style. Again, there is nowhere to go (within the program!) to find out how to do this. He has to exit the program and go onto the Internet and seek out information. OF COURSE with a program like this you will need to seek out some advice and tutorials, but still.

I can't think of any piece of commercially viable software that has an inbuilt tutorial systems where someone who wants to make such changes can go "within the program" - they all have an external souce of information, whether that's online tutorials, forums, or whatever.

So yes, you can play ANY game and in the case of SW in such a roundabout way that you can as well just play across Skype and center your webcam on the dice so the players can see what they roll.
That is why I am saying there's something inherently wrong when claiming that FG can be used for any game, because you do indeed need to go into the nuts and bolts to get it to do something vaguely similar to what you want (still not even talking about automation, although it's a nice feature for D&D players).

Sorry, we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one - I can play any RPG I like via the CoreRPG, and a hell of a lot of board games as well. I just need to prepare the system in the same way as I would if I were using a pen and paper.

This would be like selling your game "Pillars of Eternity" and saying "You can create your own characters!" and then when entering the game there is only one or two premade characters to choose from - and to make your own characters you have to learn the programming and code of the game..
perhaps a bad analogy.
It reminds me of Obi-Wan Kenobi's "What I told you was true...from a certain point of view" and that "certain point of view" is what's giving me hard feelings, I guess.

Actually, I suspect what's giving you "hard feelings" is your expectations and how they compare to reality - running before learning to crawl, as it were. How those expectations were developed and why they don't necessarily match with reality, well, that's something else entirely.

But hey, I'm not nearly as frustrated today as I was last night, when I thought I had lost everything again (to a simple little error in the syntax), and now I'm up and running and it all seems to be working fine (until I've rebuilt my characters for the third time, that is, maybe it'll begin to huff and puff again).

I'm glad things are looking up.

When you say "bells and whistles", do you really mean that the dice set, for example, is enough to promote FG as the ultimate VTT you'll ever need? Because there's a lot of different RPGs and many require different variations of dice. I know there's a community ruleset for Star Wars: Edge of Empire (or whatever it's called), which uses weird dice - again, you need programming skills.

You seem to ignore the fact that when I fired up FG for the first time and looked forward to using it, I was not able to roll 6d10 against a TN, with 10s rerolled (exploding). This fact = you can't play any game with FG.

I don't deny that exploding dice or any number of different dice-systems are not (yet) covered, and I wish they were (because it would make things more convenient), but how would you did what you just said with real, physical dice? Do the same with the FG dice. Fact = you can play any RPG with FG! Any statement to the contrary is simply one based on opinion, not fact! I'm sorry, but that's where we differ.

As a side note: as much as you and I like playing some of the more "obscure" RPGs out there the fact remains that D&D in particular and d20 games in general hold a significant percentage of the market. Add in Savage Worlds, Call of Cuthulu and the other RPGs that have Rulesets available for them and a vast majority of the RPG-industry is catered for. There comes a point where the amount of return that can be expected for catering to more "obscure" RPGs means that its not worth it to do so. The best compromise in that case is to allow the software to be moded, which SW have done. This in turn leads to the issue we've been discussing - the requirement for people to learn how to mod the software.

Cheers

Wolfheart

May 6th, 2015, 12:17

I'll leave it at that, then and we're agreeing on some disagreements :)
But you have to tell me how you played Star Wars D6. How did you solve the wild die - rolling it on its lonesome?
Thank you for your patience and tolerance with me ;)

Trenloe

May 6th, 2015, 12:29

I think you're missing a lot of the functionality that FG brings as a Virtual Table Top, which differentiate it quite markedly from Facebook and Skype (the two examples you use). Yes, *all* possible dice mechanics aren't available in a single roll (just like auto wild dice wouldn't be automatically rolled for you if you were playing in a face-to-face game, for example) but there are quick ways around it (make a 1d6 roll on the hotkey f1 for example to quickly roll the d6 wild dice).

I think you're also missing the power of the base character sheet in CoreRPG. See this thread for some of the character sheets community members have put together using the base CoreRPG ruleset: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?23138-Share-Game-System-Character-Sheets.

Yes, you can't rearrange tabs/rename the tabs, yes you can't drag and drop controls around, yes you can't change the look and feel of the whole interface without programming/editing LUA (although custom themes can be made fairly easily if you're just looking to change the background). Do any of these visual customizations stop you playing the game? No they don't.

I understand your frustration, but I agree with my two Aussie friends comments (dulux and damned). There's lots for you in Fantasy Grounds, you just need to translate the product description into more realistic expectations - and, if you want to keep going the way you're headed, which is essentially writing your own ruleset (e.g. you say you've just created a custom calendar, well done in that), you're going to need to be patient and take some time learning XML and LUA.

dulux-oz

May 6th, 2015, 12:38

But you have to tell me how you played Star Wars D6. How did you solve the wild die - rolling it on its lonesome?
Thank you for your patience and tolerance with me ;)

Yeap, pretty much - I realized early on that the CoreRPG Character Sheet has basically a blank piece of paper, and that like a blank piece of paper I could write anything on it. So I simply wrote down my character's details (on the CoreRPG Character Sheet).

Next I realized that the FG dice are the same as any dice, electronic or physical - if I needed exploding die/wild die in the physical world I simply rolled one when it was necessary. Hence, I did the same thing in FG. I still do the same thing when we play Shadowrun v3. I do the same thing when I need die of two different colours - I make two different (ie separate) rolls, just like I do in RL.

Do I miss the system not being able to do it for me automatically, like it does with the d20 or Savage Worlds stuff? Yes, of course. But at least I get to play, which is better than the alternative, which is not play at all because I don't have a group I can physically game with.

Which is why I say that you can play any RPG with FG and the CoreRPG - if you can do it in RL you can do it in FG - obviously, you just won't have all the "cool' automation, etc.

And as far as being patience, don't worry about it - as long as people don't get abusive, troll-like or too "high and mighty" (guilty of this myself, sometimes) I'm pretty OK with them ;)

Cheers

damned

May 6th, 2015, 13:46

Wolfheart good work on the Calendar and fixing your / tag issue. Make sure you do run the
/console command in the chat window when you start up Fantasy Grounds as Trenloe says. You will get some useful feedback in there.
Make regular backups and just work on one thing at a time.
I have to warn that from my experience - when modifying the character sheet over a period of time - i fond that I have to delete my test characters that I have been building and create new ones.
You will get more reliable and consistent results when you do this.
Ouch you say - you just finished adding all those abilities - I know. But Im telling you now cos it will reduce the chance of you having quirky or unexpected behaviour.
Take screen shots of your current v3 character so at least you know what to stick back on when your Character Sheet is finished.

Wolfheart

May 6th, 2015, 14:00

Yeah I was so happy this morning everything seemed to be going my way, but now I got an error again (after having rebuilt five characters). Poop. However, I've come so far that I now can see why it happens ;)

Nylanfs

May 6th, 2015, 14:13

And as a example of what is possible if you really dig into it, take a look at Trenloe's FFG's EotE ruleset (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?24151-Star-Wars-Edge-of-the-Empire-Age-of-Rebellion-Force-and-Destiny-v2-ruleset).

damned

May 6th, 2015, 14:37

Coding tip #1.

Write /reload in the chat window and drag it to hot key #1
Write /save in the chat window and drag it to hot key #2
Write /console in the chat window and drag it to hot key #3

when you make changes to your ruleset and you need to reload FG to implement and test - hit f1 or click the button
if you are checking what is actually written to the db.xml (very useful to do that by the way) hit f2 to make sure latest changes have been written
always launch the console when doing dev work

these 3 keys will save you MANY MINUTES every day you are doing coding.

now back on track - when I was doing Maelstrom I was making changes to the Character sheet very often. Sometimes a change I had made just didnt seem to be sticking. Why not? I couldnt work it out. I started Nuking the characters after certain types of changes and sticking very basic (new) characters back in there. much smoother.

whats your error?

Trenloe

May 6th, 2015, 14:57

Further pointers here: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?20651-Modifying-the-CoreRPG-ruleset

Check your resulting XML using the XML plugin (if you're using Notepad++ - see item 2 in the numbered list in post #1 of the above linked thread). As damned says, save the campaign database (db.xml file in the campaign directory) and check that for correct data - open db.xml in Notepad++ and use the XML plugin syntax check to see if there are any errors in the XML. FG should also report these errors in the console window.

Another tip: if you're continuing development on your ruleset then I really wouldn't recommend adding lots of data into the system if you're then going to make some changes pretty soon. As you're discovering, later changes to the ruleset can invalidate data that you previously entered. In addition, if you really want to keep all of that data you entered - make copies/backups of your campaign folder. I'd also recommend changing the name of your development ruleset as you add new changes - this will allow you to run previously entered data against an older version of your ruleset and allow you to still access that data.

I'll mention it again - if you're entering lots of data, make backups of your campaign! This can alleviate a lot frustration in the long run - this is vital if you're subsequently "tinkering" with a ruleset.

damned

May 6th, 2015, 15:07

Another tip: if you're continuing development on your ruleset then I really wouldn't recommend adding lots of data into the system if you're then going to make some changes pretty soon. As you're discovering, later changes to the ruleset can invalidate data that you previously entered.

Most of your entered data is Story and Tables (and Notes - move these to Stories) which I dont think will be affected by what you are doing. Characters on the other hand... and then probably NPCs in the future... well you are seeing that already. Trenloe is building a very complex Star Wars ruleset - heed his advice!

dberkompas

May 6th, 2015, 15:40

Damned,

Thanks for the function keys tip, sure wish I had thought of that while developing the 5th Ed log extension.

BoomerET

damned

May 6th, 2015, 15:42

Thanks for the function keys tip, sure wish I had thought of that while developing the 5th Ed log extension.

You can use it on your next extension... or maybe a ruleset even!

dberkompas

May 6th, 2015, 15:48

I need to fix the extension first, when I add an entry, it gets a brown circle icon instead of the delete icon.

Ruleset, hmmmm? Dungeon World? (Not much of a stretch, it's very rules light)

damned

May 6th, 2015, 15:54

I need to fix the extension first, when I add an entry, it gets a brown circle icon instead of the delete icon.

Ruleset, hmmmm? Dungeon World? (Not much of a stretch, it's very rules light)

Im planning on tackling Dungeon World (with a couple of friends) just as soon as we finish ShadowRun 4 and Paranoia. But I wont mind one bit if you do it first!

Wolfheart

May 6th, 2015, 16:25

I've figured out the error (as did you) - it's the Concept/Philosophy thing.
When I write something in that field on the character sheet, whenever I start a new line (because of a long description, for example), I get a syntax error in the db file as it updates the character in question with a new line, where "Concept / Philosophy" is not allowed. So far I've just entered the db file and changed it to "Concept-Philosophy" but when I have more time I'll need to dig into the ruleset and change it once and for all :)

Wolfheart

May 6th, 2015, 20:03

Thanks for the tips and links and all, folks.
Please forgive me that outburst, I'll be on my best behavior. And yes, backing up is something I'm doing a lot now :)

Most of your entered data is Story and Tables (and Notes - move these to Stories)
I was using notes to create the "basic level" information so that I could make tables of links in Story - and not get too cluttered a Story scroll. So when I open "Story" now, it has five "Chapters", and by clicking them, I go another level deeper (if you catch my drift) I don't understand how I can link from Story if I don't use Notes (I need a target for the link)? To NPCs and tables, sure, but I like to have rules and stuff at hand, too, instead of flipping through books or PDFs. By breaking it down like this I find it's much easier to find exactly what I need.

Im planning on tackling Dungeon World
I've read a lot of good things about this game!

Further pointers here: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forum...oreRPG-ruleset
That looks like a very valuable thread - bookmarked (thanks)

Coding tip #1.
Does this mean that the hot key bar on the lower edge of the screen correspond to the function keys?
I will try it out, thanks for the tip.

Trenloe

May 6th, 2015, 20:23

I was using notes to create the "basic level" information so that I could make tables of links in Story - and not get too cluttered a Story scroll. So when I open "Story" now, it has five "Chapters", and by clicking them, I go another level deeper (if you catch my drift)
Use categories in your story window. See the green tabs at the bottom of the screenshots in the "Campaign Data List" section here: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/wiki/index.php/Campaign_Data and the next section down ("Categories") tells you how to add them and change the icon/colour.

You could add 5 category tabs - one for each chapter. In each category have your story entries for that chapter. Then in the main (original) category have your story entries with links to the other story entries.

You may also find this guide useful (the first few pages anyway): https://www.fantasygrounds.com/wiki/images/b/b7/Adventure-a-Week_Module_Creation_Guide.pdf

Does this mean that the hot key bar on the lower edge of the screen correspond to the function keys?
Yep. https://www.fantasygrounds.com/wiki/index.php/Hot_Keys

Nylanfs

May 6th, 2015, 21:52

Wolf, do you know know you can make a new tab at the bottom of the story window with different color and icon?

Moon Wizard

May 6th, 2015, 22:19

Wolfheart,

How were you creating the field with the Slash character?

I'm working on a patch right now, and I might be able to put in some checks for that issue.

Regards,
JPG

damned

May 7th, 2015, 02:22

Hi Moon Wizard - manually edit of the CoreRPG ruleset. Wolfheart is customising CoreRPG to use with Riddle of Steel.

Moon Wizard

May 7th, 2015, 04:46

I was trying to figure out how he added the XML node tag containing the slash. Was it in the XML windowclass definition? Was it in Lua code? If Lua, which function? I like to shave off pain points like this as I identify them.

Thanks,
JPG

damned

May 7th, 2015, 05:39

Wolfheart added an addition text field (guessing from what I can see in the db.xml) with the name Concept/Philosophy so nothing you can do I dont think to prevent this...

Moon Wizard

May 7th, 2015, 08:33

Well, if anybody has the ruleset code (XML or Lua) that has this string in it; I may be able to help with this issue in the future.

If it was entered in the campaign database manually, that's a different story.

Cheers,
JPG

Wolfheart

May 7th, 2015, 20:18

Moon Wizard, thank you for your offer of assistance even in the face of my almost-ragequit. Appreciated :)
I am quite happy with FG now that I'm beginning to grasp the underlying basics...at least I understand enough to know when I destroy something :p

I believe I have to edit my "version" of the CoreRPG.
I changed a text field in the character sheet (replaced "Appearance" with Concept / Philosophy, yes do note the spaces around the slash, I'm sure that's where it got troublesome).
This showed up fine when reloading my ruleset.
Then I wondered why, every time I had created a character, and I tried to reload, all my story/notes stuff disappeared.
Finally found out that new characters are written to the db-file (?) and for each line of text I had entered in said "Concept / Philosophy" box, I got syntax errors.
Checking the lines the error had simply to do with "Concept / Philosophy" being tagged wrong in the db-file. I entered the db-file and changed the tags around the text inside the field to "concept-philosophy" and everything returned to normal.
So for now I'm just avoiding the field until I find the time to go into the ruleset and change "Concept / Philosophy" to something else. Maybe it works if I remove the spaces (as in, "Concept/Philosophy")?
At least this is what I've gathered so far :)

does this sound right, damned?
I need to change it in the ruleset, right?

All this being said, I have a few more noob questions (and I'll just keep using this thread unless you think that is preposterous!)

1) I know there is not ETA on the unity port, but do we know anything about how this transition will change (or not) FG, and where can I read up on this?
2) damned, you mentioned that it is possible to make FG read target numbers / have exploding dice, are there any handy guides for this (as in, written for people with no clue what they're doing :p) I'm not saying I'm going to tackle it yet, just curious.
3) In the same vein, is it possible to change the "dice setup" from the 'standard' to, for example, a row or pile of just d10s (or d6, or d20)? I guess this must be well hard to do, perhaps.
4) Finally (sorry), I am aware of the "voting" for features - I have voted too - but how will Smiteworks use this data? Pick the top three and implement? I know my personal wishes are just a notch weirder than the list (well, except for the exploding dice and streaming music to players, which is *awesome* in Roll20 (you can save a playlist, rename the songs and play both sound effects and music at the same time - in today's session, I had a howling wind playing underneath the music for added atmosphere)-.- now I digressed. Right. Now I forgot what I was going to ask. Oh, if there's a wishlist here on the boards! But I guess I can find out myself, so right, here I go.

Again, thanks for the patience guys.
You are a great asset for FG.

Trenloe

May 7th, 2015, 23:04

I'm pretty sure it is the / - especially if this is within the name of the control, not just the actual text of a label. As damned mentioned before, / is an integral part of XML. However, if you've used "Concept / Philosophy" as part of the control name, e.g. <strongcontrol name="Concept / Philosophy"> then the spaces will also be a problem - the name property of an XML element shouldn/t contain anything other than alphabetic characters and, maybe, a -

You'll need to change your ruleset ASAP, otherwise each time you open a window with the control/label in question it will write the bad syntax to the database and you'll have the same issues again. Manually changing the database is purely a "get me out of here so I don't lose all of my data fix" it isn't something you should be doing too often. *But* before you change your base ruleset, please send the offending code to Moon Wizard so he can look into putting a block into place for issues like this in future.

1) The devs have said that the move to Unity will not invalidate any previous rulesets/code - this is the first goal as part of the move. Hopefully that will be the case and 100% will move across, realistically I think that all of the main rulesets will be tested and made to work, but some community customisations might have a small amount of code that needs to be rewritten - purely because it's impossible to test everything out there.

2 and 3) Plenty of threads about adding custom dice: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?23452-DCC-Dice-d3-d5-d7-d14-d16-d24-d30 and https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?23886-Question-regarding-dice and https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?23279-Dice-mechanic-tutorial-for-coding-under-CoreRPG and https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?23013-Demi-Dice

4) Smiteworks use the wishlist as their initial development list. They look at the votes, but also look at features that can be easily implemented, especially if they are part of the similar set of functionality being added at the same time. That is the main, primary wishlist to use - please post any requests on there.

Nylanfs

May 8th, 2015, 03:11

We're glad you aren't giving up Wolf! On sound several people use the Teamspeak server that FG users have access to and setup a separate channel for background sounds. I reccomend Syrinscape.

Wolfheart

May 18th, 2015, 12:10

Trenloe, thanks for the suggestions, I'm not sure I found what I'm looking for in your links, however. I am looking for an extension (?) that allows dice to be rolled against a Target Number, first and foremost. Some way to tell FG that I'm looking for "5" or better, for example. But I understand that it is best to just wait around until this Unity-port b becomes reality.
I haven't found the time or inclination to dive back into the files to fix the " / " problem, but so far it works fine as long as I don't actually use that column on the character sheets, which is good enough until I feel like fiddling with the engine (so to speak) again.

Thanks Nylanfs, not giving up - I'm using FG as a secondary app next to Roll20; the latter for actual play, the former for calendar, tables, and the rulebook I've pasted into a gazillion notes :p It's nice to kind of have a second "table", but of course FG should have been a "first and only choice", but that isn't happening just yet...I need dice pools versus TNs, exploding dice, and a more efficient way to organize notes/stories at the minimum;
and I wouldn't mind the sound of clattering dice, maps that can be built in real-time (with tiles), built-in video chat (with a frame that you can change depending on game style; a nice fantasy frame for my part) & audio channels for sending/receiving music, truly customizable character sheets (from within the software), etc.

Lovely additions really don't affect FG's usability, but which would have been fun (and perhaps be good selling points), would be (and I know some of this is in the future)..
- being able to choose which dice to have lying around on the table (I never use d20s, d12s, d8s, d4s for example .. never say never, of course, but my current campaign at any rate needs only a big pile of d10s and a single d6.
- being able to have different dice (different textures and colors), just like any roleplayer's real world bag o' dice, and more importantly, being able to pick and choose which to use / have on the table (for example three gold-flecked d10s, six white d10s, and three transparent-yellow d10s on the table instead of the standard polyhedral set). I don't know, I just think that would give even more feels. It would instantly make a host of RPGs viable for play, too - games where one die is "special" or different
- being able to change font types based on the fonts installed on your computer
- a folder with sound effects specifically aimed at RPing (wind, temple bells, gongs, forest crickets, stream, clanging swords etc.)
- perhaps have a "Book" in addition to "Story" and "Notes"; when clicking a book, you actually open an empty "book" which you can use to sort information inside, into chapters etc.; Maybe that's what "Story" is supposed to do in a sense?) But it would look neat if you had an image of a book, and maybe you could even replace the cover with a cover of the PDF you are integrating. But I guess that goes deep into copyright territory).

Nylanfs

May 18th, 2015, 14:22

- being able to choose which dice to have lying around on the table (I never use d20s, d12s, d8s, d4s for example .. never say never, of course, but my current campaign at any rate needs only a big pile of d10s and a single d6.
- being able to have different dice (different textures and colors), just like any roleplayer's real world bag o' dice, and more importantly, being able to pick and choose which to use / have on the table (for example three gold-flecked d10s, six white d10s, and three transparent-yellow d10s on the table instead of the standard polyhedral set). I don't know, I just think that would give even more feels. It would instantly make a host of RPGs viable for play, too - games where one die is "special" or different
- being able to change font types based on the fonts installed on your computer
- a folder with sound effects specifically aimed at RPing (wind, temple bells, gongs, forest crickets, stream, clanging swords etc.)
- perhaps have a "Book" in addition to "Story" and "Notes"; when clicking a book, you actually open an empty "book" which you can use to sort information inside, into chapters etc.; Maybe that's what "Story" is supposed to do in a sense?) But it would look neat if you had an image of a book, and maybe you could even replace the cover with a cover of the PDF you are integrating. But I guess that goes deep into copyright territory).

I'm fairly sure that the Unity re-code will allow easier #1, 2,3, & 4 (BTW you are aware you can change the color of the dice per PC right?)

On the story what I do is create a separate tab for that adventure/campaign/module and use something like EP1, Session 1, Book 1 Ch 1, etc. that way it's all organized. I got that from the Adventure-a-week guide and xorn's (I think?) story creation video.

Wolfheart

May 18th, 2015, 14:29

I'll look more into videos, I haven't looked too much into how to use Story effectively, maybe I'm doing it wrong (I have a feeling I am!).
Well, hopefully FG:Unity will make the software a little more flexible and less intidimating, like you I certainly won't mind FG succeeding as it has its good sides.
But only ten minutes ago a friend of mine asked if he should buy FG and I couldn't just say YES!! I had to make him aware of the potential pitfalls, which is a shame.
(Don't worry, his gaming group have already purchased, so he is more than likely to do it too).

(Oh, and yes - aware of the dice/color per player. But I want to have lots of different dice cluttering the screen hehe)

- https://product-images.highwire.com/2145831/3179214.jpg