Compare 5e to 3.5e & Pathfinder

[JohnD]

Just hoping someone could provide a little synopsis/comparison of what you see as good/bad in 5e to the prior versions. Thanks.

[jshauber]

Here a few of the main highlights, I am sure others will add more.

5e feels more "old school". There are still some skill checks and feats but they don't drive the game.

Where Pathfinder has a thousand feats (or so it seems), 5e has about 50. In 5e you don't get feats every level or two, only at set times IF you forego an ability increase (thus your fighter can take an extra point in STR or he can choose a feat when the time is right). The Min/Max that goes on in many Pathfinder characters isn't nearly as prevalent in 5e.

Combat flows faster and seems more intuitive in 5e, if two characters are fighting one monster, you can give your ally an advantage die roll in combat with out having to dance around into just the right position for bonuses to apply. There are a lot less "effects" to apply in 5e since the feats that give effects like power attack, etc. are not there. A feat might give a +2/+5/advantage die in combat and there are buttons built in to handle that so the tracker is less cluttered with info and bookkeeping is minimized.

Spells in 5e can be scaled i.e. Magic Missile is still a 1st level spell but if you cast MM with say a 3rd level spell slot then you get extra missiles for each slot above 1st. Same applies to most/all damage dealing spells or healing type spells, cast them with a higher level spell slot and you get bonus damage/heal dice.

Many classes have ways of recovering some HP or spells with out a full nights rest. Fighters have second wind which allows them to recover some HP without a heal being cast on them, casters can recover a portion of their spells by taking a short rest to study/pray/meditate. This allows the group to make more progress than resting overnight after a couple encounters if they are beat up. Just seems to keep things moving at a more realistic pace in game time.

There are a few, like I said others will of course add more so you can get a better idea of the differences.

[OTG_Wraith]

Well, I am actually a fan of the crunchier systems (Rolemaster, Hero, Pathfinder, etc.) but, after completing our LMoP series recently, our group looked back on the positives of playing 5E and here's what many of us liked...

The Advantage/Disadvantage system - This is a fairly elegant system that replaces much of the math in a rules light system. You get to remove all the minor reasons to apply a bonus or penalty to your roll and deciding what the value of that modifier should be. If the attacker needs a bonus; advantage... are they subject to a penalty? disadvantage... easy. Does it lose some granularity from a numeric bonus/penalty system? Sure, but granularity isn't a hallmark of rules light systems, speed is.

Brevity of Current Rules - There aren't a lot of rules to look up in 5E, because well, they don't exist. This leaves it up to the DM to adjudicate. A good DM can fly into an undocumented problem and fly right out with a quick decision, and the players can't point to the rules because there are none. Granted this is true of most rules light systems, at least before the splat books begin to appear, but for some it is a big draw. What happens when you want to use the poison listed in the PHB? DM's decision, What happens when you're behind a corner trying to loose your arrow on an unaware opponent that has line of sight on you? DM's decision.

Newness - At first blush this may seem like a flippant answer, as in; 'it's the new kid on the block', but what I actually mean is, with newness a system is closest to the designers original intentions. As the game ages and splat books, optional rules, and even tweets and FB posts which apparently WotC is favoring for 5E rule clarifications you get further and further from the purity of the original design. Granted, a fan can ignore the new publications and just stick with the core rules, but it seems to be ingrained in our hobby that if a book appears for a system then it is forever and always a part of that system and is used to judge everything about that system. So even if a great core system is created, one overpowered (particularly in the case of official) splat book appears and suddenly the system is overpowered. Never mind that the system can still be played perfectly well without that book.

[jhall6766]

Hi John ,
I dont have the knowledge to compare 5E to earlier editions but I feel that 5E is kind of the middle ground between C &C and Pathfinder.... Not extremely rules heavey as PF but not as Lite as C & C....

[JohnD]

Have xp changed? It looks like levels 1 - 3 would happen really really really quickly. Am I interpreting that correctly?

[Trenloe]

Have xp changed? It looks like levels 1 - 3 would happen really really really quickly. Am I interpreting that correctly?
Correct - leveling occurs much more rapidly. But you tend to get less at each level in terms of extra abilities, bonuses, etc. on a per level basis.

[OTG_Wraith]

Have xp changed? It looks like levels 1 - 3 would happen really really really quickly. Am I interpreting that correctly?

1 to 3, particularly 1 and 2 are accelerated. After that the leveling slows down dramatically.

[JohnD]

Awesome. Thanks everyone. I've some reading to do and a decision to make.

[Vgamer]

Just hoping someone could provide a little synopsis/comparison of what you see as good/bad in 5e to the prior versions. Thanks.

Heres the short-list, many more reasons why I think 5e is the best RPG ever, but here it goes.

1. Advantage/Disadvantage system - genius - a player jumps on a table (high-ground), The DM could give him Advantage, no hard-fast rules for the Advantage/Disadvantage system, makes situational events easy to resolve. however there are also features that give you Advantage, so there are built in mechanics for it also. So a player rolls two d20 instead of one, takes the higher number, how cool is rolling 2 D20's! But the other side of the coin is disadvantage, if the monster is on the table and you're below, roll 2 d20's take the lower number, scary!

2. No out of control AC, like in 3.5 and Pathfinder. An AC of 20 is really good in 5e. For stats like strength you can't go past 20 unless you have certain magic items. This makes lower levels monsters still relevant for higher level players, and you get a LOT more use out of you monsters. At 3rd level you're still scared of Orcs, especially if your out numbered. No hacking and slashing through them like some legendaery fanboy playing a Drizzt or Gimli character, and laughing at them the whole way through. You have to play smart in 5e or die, as it should be.

3. Streamlined combat - combat take about 1/3 of the time of the number cruncher systems, you cycle through players quickly in the initiative order, and people get many more turns in combat. Most of the people I play with are ex-Pathfinder people.

4. Very easy to do theater of the mind situations without the use of a grid, try that in some of the other systems 3.5, PF, just doesn't work tactically. This is where the Old School feel comes from people talk about. Don't get me wrong though, grids are easily implemented also. You can just switch between the two easily as you play is what I'm saying.

5. I don't agree with the gentlemen that said 5e is rules light. He probably played it before the official DMG came out, it was rules light before that. 5e is a modeler system, meaning you can port in the rules you want from the DMG or discard them as you wish as a DM. Want flanking? great! the rules are there in the DMG, don't want flanking? fine, the 5e rules are not so tightly bound that it will break if you don't use certain rule modules. You can't do that in 3.5 or Pathfinder without something breaking.

6. Streamline Skill checks and Saving throws - All checks are stat based and add proficiency bonus if you are proficient in it. You may be proficient on the check or not, but lack of proficiency doesn't exclude you from trying said skill, just less of a chance to accomplish it. so fast and awesome it's not even funny, no having to number crunch every single thing. Saving throws are the same way, roll D20, add your Prof bonus see if you made the DC.

7. Players to-hit are more realistic, no more +40 to hit or something ridiculous like that, adding up all the mods for every single hit which takes forever and slows the game to a crawl. 5e uses a proficiency system, for example levels 1-4 your Proficiency bonus is +2, that's it, and it only goes up by 1 every 4 levels or so...so depending on your class you may have a +4 or 5 to hit at first, and it goes up very little as you level later, again this makes ALL monsters relevant in the game once again, so they can hit you also even at higher levels.

I know I missing a bunch of other reasons why it's the best RPG to date imo, but that is off the top of my head. Hope it helps you at least try it out.

[Zeus]

Believe it or not JohnD but I haven't had a chance to play 5E yet. Don't get me wrong I've read all the books and boy have I wanted to play but with all the FG dev work and ongoing day work/life commitments I have simply not had any time to play. :cry: Whaaaa!

From what I have read though, it seems to me that 5E blends the old school simplicity of rules mechanics akin to the early days of AD&D 1e core rules - before all the splat books began emerging, and the best bits from 2e - 4e, resulting in a quick flowing, easy to pick up and fairly well balanced game system. I for one am pleased WotC stepped back from the tactical encounter focused and power heavy play of 4E, it was fun to begin with but man did it wear me down - adjudicating a 4E game with experienced gamers was tough work.

Another good point is how simple it is to convert older 1e, 2e and 3e content to 5e, making it relatively straight-forward to re-play some age old classics like the original Tomb of Horrors or Temple of the Frog but with up to date mechanics and gameplay. Uber coolness. I am even thinking of converting some Arduin Grimoire adventures after Doug very kindly put me in touch with a friend who is looking to sell his Arduin collection. Me happy.

[jhall6766]

Zeus quick question for ya.... How do you think DragonLance would convert over to 5E any thoughts you may have on it is welcome

[Zeus]

Its been pretty straightforward for the 1e modules I have converted so far, the most complex elements to convert are the NPCs/monsters but if you know where to look you can find resources like this uber cool online tool which converts 1e/3e NPCs to 5E in a jiffy: https://brentnewhall.com/games/1e5e.html (https://brentnewhall.com/games/1e5e.html) Muwahahaha!

Here's some sample output:

Zeus
Gargantuan Deity, neutral
Armor Class -10
Hit Points 162 (10d20+62)

Senses Everything
Languages Common, Ancient Greek



STR
DEX
CON
INT
WIS
CHA


30 (+10)
25 (+7)
30 (+10)
25 (+7)
30 (+10)
5 (-3)



Thunderbolt Rage. Zeus tends to throw bolts out of his pram when he doesn't get his own way.

Actions
3. +8 to hit. Hit: 4007 (1000d8+7) damage
Lightning Bolt. Ranged Weapon Attack: +30 to hit, range 100 ft., ten targets. Hit: 400 (100d8) damage.
Thunderclap. Ranged Weapon Attack: +25 to hit, range 100 ft., 30 targets. Hit: 800 (200d8) damage.
Finger of Death. Melee Weapon Attack: +30 to hit, reach 30 ft., one target. Hit: 3996 (999d8) damage.

I might just have to plagiarise this tool for an FG extension :) Doug recently introduced similar cool functionality that allows you to generate NPCs for 3.5E/PF called the Forge, I'm thinking something similar for 5e that allows you to drop a 1e/3e stat block into a window to auto convert it to 5e.

[JohnD]

The only thing so far I don't like is the accelerated levelling at the start, but I suppose it needs to be experienced to be fully assessed. I like slow progression, so this will be a challenge conceptually to overcome.

Is magic/spells more or less the same or has that been refined as well?

I like the absence of 1000 feats though.

[Vgamer]

The only thing so far I don't like is the accelerated levelling at the start, but I suppose it needs to be experienced to be fully assessed. I like slow progression, so this will be a challenge conceptually to overcome.

Is magic/spells more or less the same or has that been refined as well?

I like the absence of 1000 feats though.

The accelerated leveling in the beginning is misleading, it quickly gets harder to level after third and you are not getting out of control powerful characters because your proficiency bonus doesn't go up until after fourth level and then only by one. All early leveling is doing is getting some hp under you belt so you don't get one shotted by an Orc, and even at third level an Orc can kill you with a couple well placed crits. Then at 4th level, you start with the ultra cool features that we didn't even mention yet. 5e is unbeatable right now, and it showed being #1 on Amazon, I have no idea how Pathfinder will survive with this 5e Homerun, but they better roll a 20 on their saving throw...

[Trenloe]

5e is unbeatable right now, and it showed being #1 on Amazon, I have no idea how Pathfinder will survive with this 5e Homerun, but they better roll a 20 on their saving throw...
Part of that #1 selling status is because 5E is new and because it's not OGL, so players have to buy the books. Pathfinder is certainly suffering from bloat, which all d20 based systems that have ongoing development do after a few years - it was/is the same with 3.5e. It'll be interesting to see how much "splat" 5E gets over the coming years and how much it suffers from bloat over time.

Don't get me wrong, I really like what I see with 5E. Just like I really liked what I saw with Pathfinder when it was first released and for the first couple of years.

The one things that I'm really liking with 5E is the fact that Wizards are bringing out adventure campaigns for it. 4E had the odd 32 page scenario module released, but the main area for adventures was Dungeon magazine, which only had one long term campaign during it's whole 4E publication period. So, it's great to see Wizards bringing out some campaigns and it's fantastic that they're using tried-and-tested companies from within the industry to do them.

[JohnD]

Just finished my purchase. :)

[jhall6766]

Lol added to my earlier purchase as well.... Have Lmop , core class pack as well as core monster pack... Guess my next purchase will be when they release another adventure Mod..

[OTG_Wraith]

Don't get me wrong, I really what I see with 5E. Just like I really liked what I saw with Pathfinder when it was first released and for the first couple of years.

As I pointed out in my post, beyond errata Pathfinder hasn't changed, nor has 4E, and nor will 5E...

[Vgamer]

WOTC has stated they're not going to make a million splat books like PF, 3.5, 4e. They have stated they will be concentrating on adventures and background books.

To be fair though, Pathfinder did curb stomp 4e. 5e rallied and they needed to, and our now returning the favor. They bided their time and strategized. They had a 2 year playtest with over 200,000 people. They pulled all the stops and best options from every edition and combined them with all the new innovated streamlined mechanics, and of course the new backrounds, flaws personality traits, brings out the missing story elements that 4e forgot about. 5e plays like a well written novel now. So now that D&D is back on top, I for one am happy for them, and can't wait to see the new line coming out.

[Velocinox]

Part of that #1 selling status is because 5E is new and because it's not OGL, so players have to buy the books. Pathfinder is certainly suffering from bloat, which all d20 based systems that have ongoing development do after a few years - it was/is the same with 3.5e. It'll be interesting to see how much "splat" 5E gets over the coming years and how much it suffers from bloat over time.

Don't get me wrong, I really what I see with 5E. Just like I really liked what I saw with Pathfinder when it was first released and for the first couple of years.

The one things that I'm really liking with 5E is the fact that Wizards are bringing out adventure campaigns for it. 4E had the odd 32 page scenario module released, but the main area for adventures was Dungeon magazine, which only had one long term campaign during it's whole 4E publication period. So, it's great to see Wizards bringing out some campaigns and it's fantastic that they're using tried-and-tested companies from within the industry to do them.

I think you're spot on, but in the end my concern isn't with the ups and downs of the game industry, it's right here with Smiteworks and Fantasy Grounds and my hope that with 5E official support we end up with more players while avoiding those edition warriors that root for a specific system and can't join whatever system is being used without droning on about how it's not as good as [their favorite system].

[Callum]

5e is unbeatable right now, and it showed being #1 on Amazon, I have no idea how Pathfinder will survive with this 5e Homerun, but they better roll a 20 on their saving throw...

Well, Erik Mona doesn't seem worried, as you can see in this interview (https://icv2.com/articles/news/view/31250/icv2-interview-paizo-publisher-erik-mona) with him. Of course, he's coming from the viewpoint of Paizo Publisher, but I don't think he's being dishonest.

[Vgamer]

That guy is the face of Pathfinder man, what else is the guy going to say, "We Pathfinder, are getting the holy BLEEP kicked out of us by 5e!" Beware of when companies start coming out for "interviews"when they've been sleeping giants... more like damage control, or in this case, the Titanic. Now like the other guy said in the thread, let's not get zealot like and start preaching what we think is the best RPG, let's just be happy 5e is doing well, that's good for all RPG's, now that D&D is back to being King of the hill, and this is a 5e thread after all, so let's stay positive :).

[Callum]

let's not get zealot like and start preaching what we think is the best RPG

I didn't do that anywhere in my post. You, on the other hand...


D&D is back to being King of the hill

5e is unbeatable right now

Heres the short-list, many more reasons why I think 5e is the best RPG ever

They pulled all the stops and best options from every edition and combined them with all the new innovated streamlined mechanics, and of course the new backrounds, flaws personality traits, brings out the missing story elements that 4e forgot about. 5e plays like a well written novel now.

And as for...


this is a 5e thread after all

...perhaps you should take another look at the title of this thread? You might also like to consider that I was only responding to your mention of Pathfinder.


let's stay positive

I believe my post was quite positive, linking to an interview where Erik Mona says positive things about 5E, Pathfinder, and the state of the hobby in general. Your posts, on the other hand...


"We Pathfinder, are getting the holy BLEEP kicked out of us by 5e!" ... more like damage control, or in this case, the Titanic.

I have no idea how Pathfinder will survive with this 5e Homerun, but they better roll a 20 on their saving throw...

[JohnD]

Yeah my in intent was simply to get an idea what the major differences between the versions are, and whether they are positives or negatives. I asked as someone who never cracked a 5e book before yesterday.

[Vgamer]

I knew the Pathfinder fanboys would rage with 5e success, and go kicking and screaming all the way, and you didn't disappoint Callam. LMAO.

[Nylanfs]

Guys please, so far the FG forums have been an edition war free place. lets keep it that way.

[Zeus]

Lets keep it all friendly guys, it is at the end of the day still D&D no matter which edition you play or prefer. The important things in my mind is that as with all new incarnations of the game, with 5E we get the opportunity to hook the interests of the next generation of gamers, the future life blood of this industry, lets face it its hard enough to convince a modern day 12 year old to play a P&P game in a world of tablets, phones and video consoles unless its shiny new or has something seriously different to offer, then its a little easier. My 11 year old son is a great example, I introduced him to the beta of 5E last year and he didn't touch it until he got back to school after the summer break only to discover his friends had played it, now he runs his own weekly game on FG.

And as far as I know, he's luvving it. :)

[JohnD]

Yeah arguments were not my intent.

[The Scriven One]

My best friend favors Pathfinder, and I favor 5e. Regardless, he's playing in my 5e campaign, and I'm willing to play in the Pathfinder game he's planning. We tend to think in terms of the old 80s-90s paradigm of 5e being D&D, and Pathfinder being sort of an AD&D. Granted the analogy's not perfect, but it's got a certain truth to it, IMHO.

[Justin Davis]

I tend to agree with most of vgamers points, Callums, not so much... bringing in that Pathfinder article was kinda weird, especially since its not even coming from an unbiased viewpoint. Also a little naive to think that a little heated discussion wouldn't naturally evolve from such a volatile original post, intended on not. People have invested, time, money, their hearts in these games.

It's all good though, yes 5e is back on top but I think 5e success will carry over to all RPGs.

[Velocinox]

Also a little naive to think that a little heated discussion wouldn't naturally evolve from such a volatile original post, intended on not. People have invested, time, money, their hearts in these games.

Actually it's not. Not even a little. We've been able to have all systems FG has rulesets for co-exist peacefully on these boards for years. If you think edition wars are unavoidable then you've been around inexperienced gamers, because an experienced gamer that has tried hundreds of systems over the years doesn't waste energy defending one particular system as the end all, be all winner of RPG games.

(The rest of this post isn't directed at you specifically, but any edition warriors who happen to come here waving their system's banner.)


...my concern isn't with the ups and downs of the game industry, it's right here with Smiteworks and Fantasy Grounds and my hope that with 5E official support we end up with more players while avoiding those edition warriors that root for a specific system and can't join whatever system is being used without droning on about how it's not as good as [their favorite system].

I quoted this because I posted it right after I saw a post with the first shots in an edition war. I knew someone would have to take up the opposition's banner, and they did...

Look... here's the bottom line from an FG vet, and I think I speak for many here... nobody cares what system you like best. You might as well be arguing about what garbage bag you prefer, hefty or glad. This isn't WotC or Paizo forums, we are here for our passion for Fantasy Grounds. whether we are playing 3.X, Pathfinder, 4E, 5E, or even Savage Worlds, Rolemaster, Castles and Crusades or any other FG ruleset.

Please keep your arguments over which is best to yourself and hopefully one day, you'll have the experience and maturity to finally realize that the system doesn't... even... matter... any game can be played with any system.

[Karykzen]

Heres the short-list, many more reasons why I think 5e is the best RPG ever, but here it goes.

1. Advantage/Disadvantage system - genius - a player jumps on a table (high-ground), The DM could give him Advantage, no hard-fast rules for the Advantage/Disadvantage system, makes situational events easy to resolve. however there are also features that give you Advantage, so there are built in mechanics for it also. So a player rolls two d20 instead of one, takes the higher number, how cool is rolling 2 D20's! But the other side of the coin is disadvantage, if the monster is on the table and you're below, roll 2 d20's take the lower number, scary!

2. No out of control AC, like in 3.5 and Pathfinder. An AC of 20 is really good in 5e. For stats like strength you can't go past 20 unless you have certain magic items. This makes lower levels monsters still relevant for higher level players, and you get a LOT more use out of you monsters. At 3rd level you're still scared of Orcs, especially if your out numbered. No hacking and slashing through them like some legendaery fanboy playing a Drizzt or Gimli character, and laughing at them the whole way through. You have to play smart in 5e or die, as it should be.

3. Streamlined combat - combat take about 1/3 of the time of the number cruncher systems, you cycle through players quickly in the initiative order, and people get many more turns in combat. Most of the people I play with are ex-Pathfinder people.

4. Very easy to do theater of the mind situations without the use of a grid, try that in some of the other systems 3.5, PF, just doesn't work tactically. This is where the Old School feel comes from people talk about. Don't get me wrong though, grids are easily implemented also. You can just switch between the two easily as you play is what I'm saying.

5. I don't agree with the gentlemen that said 5e is rules light. He probably played it before the official DMG came out, it was rules light before that. 5e is a modeler system, meaning you can port in the rules you want from the DMG or discard them as you wish as a DM. Want flanking? great! the rules are there in the DMG, don't want flanking? fine, the 5e rules are not so tightly bound that it will break if you don't use certain rule modules. You can't do that in 3.5 or Pathfinder without something breaking.

6. Streamline Skill checks and Saving throws - All checks are stat based and add proficiency bonus if you are proficient in it. You may be proficient on the check or not, but lack of proficiency doesn't exclude you from trying said skill, just less of a chance to accomplish it. so fast and awesome it's not even funny, no having to number crunch every single thing. Saving throws are the same way, roll D20, add your Prof bonus see if you made the DC.

7. Players to-hit are more realistic, no more +40 to hit or something ridiculous like that, adding up all the mods for every single hit which takes forever and slows the game to a crawl. 5e uses a proficiency system, for example levels 1-4 your Proficiency bonus is +2, that's it, and it only goes up by 1 every 4 levels or so...so depending on your class you may have a +4 or 5 to hit at first, and it goes up very little as you level later, again this makes ALL monsters relevant in the game once again, so they can hit you also even at higher levels.

I know I missing a bunch of other reasons why it's the best RPG to date imo, but that is off the top of my head. Hope it helps you at least try it out.

I think they did an excellent job with combat without the complexity of tables in systems such as Rolemaster. With the various bonus actions or reactions you can gain, along with setting up your allies with advantages while imposing disadvantages on foes, it makes combat more strategic vs. hack-and-slash. Add to that the little things creatures can now do (example Goblins can attack and disengage, Kobolds get advantages on attacks if they are in groups of two or more, etc.) and that 1/4 Challenge Rating monster can inflict some serious damage.

[Velocinox]

I think they did an excellent job with combat without the complexity of tables in systems such as Rolemaster.

This is exactly the hold-over face to face kind of thinking I hope Fantasy Grounds can finally put to rest.

So far, VTTs have tried to replicate in-person tabletop gaming. We hold that as the end goal of a VTT. I say that is limited thinking. Sure charts and tables may be a hassle for someone sitting around the kitchen table to look up and calculate, but we have a paradigm shifting tool right in front of us; Fantasy Grounds.

With appropriate automation you never have to look up a table again. Rolemaster could be just as fast as a two page Dungeon World rules light system. We continually look behind us as to what VTTs can do for us, we need to start looking ahead. The proliferation of rules light systems are because face to face players don't want to take the time to run through a crunchy system's mechanics. We have a better way; Let Fantasy Grounds do it for you. So suddenly even the crunchiest system's combat is resolved in a single die roll.

THIS is exactly why I prefer FG over all the other VTTs, they give you an online place to hold your face to face game. FG provides automation to take all the drudgery out of the system's mechanics allowing any GM to run whatever system he desires no matter how granular and realistic without suffering undue drop in game speed.

Here's the future, it's not about the system you use to speed up play, it's about the PROGRAM you use to speed up your system.

[Justin Davis]

If you think edition wars are unavoidable then you've been around inexperienced gamers, because an experienced gamer that has tried hundreds of systems over the years doesn't waste energy defending one particular system as the end all, be all winner of RPG games.

Wow, I was referring to human nature and nothing more, no need suggest I hang around inexperienced gamers, quite the opposite actually, so maybe get off your high horse there Mr. Experienced gamer...actually now that I read back all the posts, look like you're the one that changed the mood of this thread.

[Velocinox]

Wow, I was referring to human nature and nothing more, no need suggest I hang around inexperienced gamers, quite the opposite actually, so maybe get off your high horse there Mr. Experienced gamer...actually now that I read back all the posts, look like you're the one that changed the mood of this thread.

Hey look! We both joined in December! Welcome to the community! I apologize if I hurt your feelings, and I get your point about human nature, however mature people overcome many of their baser instincts when interacting with other mature human beings. Let's hope the new influx of 5E players recognizes that about our veteran members of this well-established community and behave accordingly without becoming too defensive about systems or even forums posts.

Hope to see you in a game, Justin!

[Justin Davis]

Hey look! We both joined in December! Welcome to the community! I apologize if I hurt your feelings, and I get your point about human nature, however mature people overcome many of their baser instincts when interacting with other mature human beings. Let's hope the new influx of 5E players recognizes that about our veteran members of this well-established community and behave accordingly without becoming too defensive about systems or even forums posts.

Hope to see you in a game, Justin!
Umad bro?

[Velocinox]

Umad bro?

*shrug* Well, I tried.

I would say something back, but there really isn't anything I can say that would illustrate more clearly who you are at your core than your very own posts, so I'll just say I hope not all of our new customers behave like you.

[Justin Davis]

Well, I guess you are mad after all, anyways ill just say likewise, your behavior is far from mature as you claim you like it, and no one cares how long you have been here, you can stop bragging about that anytime. I hope all the FG vets here aren't so angry, and defensive about new people coming in, I'm sure FG doesn't want new customers being chased off, especially when they just came out with a new product. FG can't be a small little haven for grizzled grognards forever...So maybe be a little more welcoming? Anyways, I'm out.

[Velocinox]

I'm sure FG doesn't want new customers being chased off, especially when they just came out with a new product. FG can't be a small little haven for grizzled grognards forever.

Nor would I expect they would appreciate their haven for respectful gaming discourse to descend into yet another toxic cesspool of flames, 'Umad bro?' trolling, and edition wars.

My original posts asked for a cessation of this thread's edition fighting and to look beyond the current ideas of VTTs to something that transcends current concepts. Saying you play with inexperienced players is no more an insult than a new player coming here to ask for help. Yet, you took it personally, and I apologized. So if anyone got mad, it would be the one that can't continue a respectful discussion. Which in the end, is exactly why this community has made all attempts at avoiding edition wars.

[Trenloe]

Closing this thread as I think JohnD got the info he wanted and it's not going anywhere constructive now.