Greensting scorpion feats rule

[Skellan]

I noticed that herolab was giving a feat for the greensting scorpion. I queried this on the Herolab forums and a member of the herolab team kindly responded:

Since a normal greensting scorpion has INT -, it doesn't get any feats.

When you make it a familiar, it gains an INT score, and therefore gets to take all the normal feats of a monster of its HD. But, the bestiary entry for this monster doesn't have any feats listed, so in HL, we just leave the feats blank and let the user choose them.

(All familiars can change their feats in order to choose something other than what the Bestiary suggests are normal feats for that race - check the "Customize?" checkbox on the Minion tab to do so).

I am guessing I am wrong but I can't find the rule. Can anyone help me clarify this?

[Nylanfs]

35e or Pathfinder?

[Skellan]

Sorry, pathfinder

[darrenan]

Monster Creation (https://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterCreation.html), step 6 second paragraph.

[Nylanfs]

I think families follow different rules.

[Nylanfs]

Hmmm, says use masters into and doesn't say anything about feats
https://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/classes/wizard.html#familiars

[darrenan]

Sure does:


It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was, but is now a magical beast for the purpose of effects that depend on its type.

Which says to me it should be treated as any other animal, which if it's intelligence was raised, means it qualifies for feats per my original post, and the quote from HL rep.

[darrenan]

Ah, but this thread (https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nk0s?Do-familiars-gain-Feats#1) from the paizo.com forums pinpoints the important point, which is that familiar's don't actually have HD, hence they don't get feats. Case closed?

EDIT: I'm not sure I buy that line of reasoning either. It does state that they have the same HD as whatever animal they were, which means they should qualify for at least 1 feat (1 + 1 for every 2HD). Their HD don't increase though, so they wouldn't learn any new feats as their master levels up. In the end this one will probably come down to GM ruling, it's definitely not 100% clear.

[Trenloe]

1) The greensting scorpion was added as a familiar option in Ultimate Magic and it comes with the Weapon Finesse feat: https://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/magic/newFamiliars.html#greensting-scorpion-cr-1/4

2) darrenan points out what it says in the Familiars section of the Wizard description: https://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/classes/wizard.html#familiars The next sentence after the one he quotes is "Only a normal, unmodified animal may become a familiar."

I think what HL were saying when they said "(All familiars can change their feats in order to choose something other than what the Bestiary suggests are normal feats for that race - check the "Customize?" checkbox on the Minion tab to do so)." was that HeroLab allows you to change the feats if you want to - but this is a customisation allowed by HL and not part of the usual PF rules.

[Skellan]

Thanks folks. Herolab is showing the greensting familiar with weapon finesse but it is saying it has one extra feat to add, so I will have to manually change it to remove the validation error

Cheers for your help :)

[Skellan]

Oh, apparently the weapon finesse feat has a superscript "B" - that means it's a racial bonus feat, and does not count against the race's total feats allowed. So Herolab wins and I am wrong :)

[Trenloe]

So Herolab wins and I am wrong :)
I really think that Hero Lab isn't doing this properly.

I've just created a base level 1 wizard and gave him the arcane bond (arcane familiar) class ability, then added the Greensting Scorpion. HL shows that the familiar needs another feat to be selected (the topic of this thread), but it also shows that you need to add one rank to a skill. In the Familiars section of the Wizard class, it states for skills: Skills: "For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master's skill ranks, whichever is better." No mention of changing the skills of "an animal of that type" based on higher intelligence.

Where Hero Lab then really starts to drift away from the norm is that it shows that you should add 6 tricks to the familiar. Nowhere in the core book Familiar section does it mention that familiars get tricks and would need a handle animal check to get them to do anything. Tricks and the associated handle animal checks are for animal companions. The first paragraph of the familiars sections in the PF core book states "Only a normal, unmodified animal may become a familiar. An animal companion cannot also function as a familiar."

OK, so adding or not adding these tricks doesn't give a validation error, but tricks aren't appropriate for a familiar. Unless Hero Lab just adds these to any old animal with some intelligence in case someone wants to house rule and insist that familiars have tricks. If this is the case then it makes me think that the additional feat and skill point are really house rule options too.

[Skellan]

Yeah, I am not comfortable with it either to be honest. Its odd because Herolab only adds this stuff to the Greensting and not the other familiars. I can see their point that it is technically missing a feat as the weapon finesse is a free racial etc. UM does provide the stats without mention of the feat though and its always worth keeping in mind that Herolab is not a valid source (but it is a really helpful tool and is right most of the time).

I am not sure how much it is worth arguing the toss with Herolab about this. However, it is a bit concerning that lots of people are likely building the greensting wrong