Archery Feats

[damned]

You gotta watch this to the end.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk

[seycyrus]

You gotta watch this to the end.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk

No, not really. It's the danish charlatan Lars up to his usual parlor tricks.

[Callum]

In what way is Lars a charlatan?

[seycyrus]

His video is composed of 15 second montages, that use narrative deception in an attempt to deceive the uninformed viewer into believing that his parlor tricks might be useful in a war environment. Nearly every element of his commercial (for that is what it really is) misleads with implications from the previous element which then follow with implications to the next element. This is done on purpose.

His parlor tricks are performed with a child's bow.

[Ardem]

Not knowing much, is his Childs bow much difference from a syrian bow in use. He demonstrates it penetrating chainmail is this not true, if so could it not be viable to do the things he is doing?

Again i know nothing of archery.

[Gwaihir Scout]

Well, there are grades of chainmail, plus he was using target points instead of broadheads, which could make a difference by maybe having to push less metal aside to get through. Maybe.

The short bow has its place, but this whole thing is more a different school of thought from what we're used to than Hollywood actually being more wrong than usual.

I'm pretty sure his fletchings are in terrible shape from his nocking the arrows so quickly. Basically, he'll ONLY be good at close range with those arrows, and won't be able to get stable flights at long range.

His speed is pretty cool.

[damned]

he does have one seen where he fires off arrows at long distance hitting all the targets.
sure - he is a salesman and he is selling his product but i have yet to see a decent rebuttal with any substance - yes the arrows he splits are probably bamboo - but that takes nothing away from the accuracy of the shots. shoot a guy 6 times before he even gets one shot off at you - he probably never will get a shot off at you.
what he is doing in no way invalidates what others are doing
most of the rebuttals spend half their time calling him an amateur, bagging his running style and his inability to throw a ball

either way - i loved it - it was a great video and makes Legolas's body count somewhat more realistic :)

[Callum]

I came across this rebuttal on GeekDad:

https://geekdad.com/2015/01/danish-archer/

[damned]

ive read that one too - mostly the points above and then goes on to repeat some of the things he accuses Lars of like cherry picking facts...

he writes
What IS accurate is the archaeological evidence in the form of bows and physiological indicators in the archers’ bodies, such as separation in the shoulder cartilage, the thickness of bones in the bow arm and elongation of the bones of the draw arm, all of which is well-documented and known to competent historians.
coupled with
Any competent archery instructor will tell you that an archer’s power does not come from the arm, but from the back muscles, and both sides are used at the same time.

and then confusingly describing Lars
What he had learned is the usual collection of bad habits that self-taught amateur archers always display
and then pointing out that
though truthfully, there were historically very few professional archers or hunters.

and comments like:
This is accompanied by a shot of him throwing a ball very badly and awkwardly
and
Another fun exercise would be comparing Andersen’s clumsy attempts at running and jumping to actual practitioners of parkour, martial arts, or gymnastics. Frankly, I’m surprised people aren’t mocking his awkward attempts at action shots

i think its a very badly written rebuttal. he has points but why all the personal attacks?

[seycyrus]

Not knowing much, is his Childs bow much difference from a syrian bow in use. He demonstrates it penetrating chainmail is this not true, if so could it not be viable to do the things he is doing?

Again i know nothing of archery.

Mongols used strong bows, maybe not up to the higher weights that some English longbowmen shot at, but definitely stronger than the bow that Lars is using. When I use the term child's bow, I am being historical. That bow that Lars is using is what an 8 yr old boy would be using.

In general, one has to have a sense of understanding and respect for our ancestors. They were not dummies. Ask yourself this. Why would Mongol warriors use 100+ pound bows if they could just strum-push arrows out of a 20-40 pound bow and easily defeat one of the prevalent armors of the time?

The answer is, because they couldn't!

Arrows don't really go through mail armor like a hot knife through butter. Mail is actually pretty darn good at stopping arrows. Maybe not the cheap, butted links, that a bunch of us through together in 80s 90s etc, but a historical riveted, backed suit of mail was effective.

Lars goes from one little piece of footage to another, drawing the viewer by the nose, never directly making any claims, but letting the implications fall where they will.

His arrows go BETWEEN the links of the butted mail he is shooting at. Likewise I could shove a piece of uncooked spaghetti through the links, but I would hang my head in shame if others were to take that as evidence my pieces of spaghetti would be an effective weapon against mail clad soldiers of the era. Lars, however, feels no remorse as he allows (guides?) others to draw that conclusion.

I know, I know, we all want to rationalize our level 37 Archer/rogue/bard/whatevers taking out hordes of enemies, but reality is a harsher mistress.

[seycyrus]

he does have one seen where he fires off arrows at long distance hitting all the targets.
Let's see some continuous footage, with him and his targets in frame, at a distance greater than 20 yards, and lets see the speed stuff.


sure - he is a salesman and he is selling his product but i have yet to see a decent rebuttal with any substance - yes the arrows he splits are probably bamboo - but that takes nothing away from the accuracy of the shots...
Seriously? I mean seriously? I've got respect for you and all, but have you ever heard about re-takes? Do you believe that the guys who make the basketball shots from the rooftoop of an adjacent building did it on one try?


shoot a guy 6 times before he even gets one shot off at you - he probably never will get a shot off at you.
I'll let Lars shoot me 6 times with the bow he is using, with me wearing historical chain, if he lets me shoots him once with my 70lb Osage Orange. Heck, I'll even give him a 7th arrow to shoot it out of the air!!

...most of the rebuttals spend half their time calling him an amateur, bagging his running style and his inability to throw a ball
That's because his entire video is composed ENTIRELY of material calling everyone else amateurs. How about the over-acted arrows falling out of the quiver gig? How about the 3-stooges type re-enactment of the "difficulties" of loading an arrow the customary way?


either way - i loved it - it was a great video and makes Legolas's body count somewhat more realistic :)

Maybe you nailed it. Those who loved the way Legolas was portrayed, probably think that Lars is the bees knees. On the other hand, those who think that Legolas was over the top probably think Lars is a fraud.

[seycyrus]

ive read that one too - mostly the points above and then goes on to repeat some of the things he accuses Lars of like cherry picking facts...

he writes
What IS accurate is the archaeological evidence in the form of bows and physiological indicators in the archers’ bodies, such as separation in the shoulder cartilage, the thickness of bones in the bow arm and elongation of the bones of the draw arm, all of which is well-documented and known to competent historians.
coupled with
Any competent archery instructor will tell you that an archer’s power does not come from the arm, but from the back muscles, and both sides are used at the same time.
There's nothing wrong here. Lars was pulling stuff out of nowhere to make some non-points. You do use your back muscles, and the BONES in your arm will get thicker etc. Lars likely tried to pull out this both arms stuff to cover himself when he pushes arrows out of his bow.

You tell me, what point do YOU think Lars was making when he brought this up? Please don't forget about Mr. Newton.


and then confusingly describing Lars
What he had learned is the usual collection of bad habits that self-taught amateur archers always display
and then pointing out that
though truthfully, there were historically very few professional archers or hunters.

This is entirely correct. "Self taught amateurs" of TODAY, versus HISTORICAL archers of yester-year. He explains the point in his text. I don't understand the confusion.


...i think its a very badly written rebuttal. he has points but why all the personal attacks?

Again, Lars's ENTIRE video is a personal attack. I think the rebuttal is very well written.

[Nickademus]

Lars is giving examples of skirmish archery. The mongols used horse archery. English longbow are for long-distance battlefield archery. You are comparing apples to oranges. I did not see anything for sale in the video so I don't know how he is trying to sell his parlor tricks, but I do see him capable of doing the things he claims to be able to do: shoot quickly at close range while staying mobile.

[seycyrus]

Lars is giving examples of skirmish archery. The mongols used horse archery. English longbow are for long-distance battlefield archery. You are comparing apples to oranges. I did not see anything for sale in the video so I don't know how he is trying to sell his parlor tricks, but I do see him capable of doing the things he claims to be able to do: shoot quickly at close range while staying mobile.

Please show me how any of my arguments are dependent on the type of archery used. It's easy to toss out a general cliche (comparing apples to oranges), but please be specific. Don't just throw out terms. "skirmish archery" indeed. The mongol skirmish archers used bows with a much greater draw strength than Lars child bow. Why?

According to people's interpretation of his video, Lars could quickly and easily kill many,many mail clad soldiers at distance. Dumb old Mongols! Why bother with superior mobility, discipline and tactics when you could just have a bunch of Lars's push-strumming their 30 pound bows (at half draw) and take out vast magnitudes of the enemy in a couple of minutes!

And to clear up some confusion. Lars is trying to sell the most precious of commodities. He is trying to sell himself.

[damned]

Again, Lars's ENTIRE video is a personal attack. I think the rebuttal is very well written.

My point about the rebuttal was and still is - that many of the things that the author accuses Lars of - he does himself. He gets personal. He chooses evocative words like amateur on one side and professional on the other, statements like it "could only be accomplished' with regards to both splitting arrows on knives and with other arrows. Its likely to be true most of the time but maybe not everytime and it takes nothing away from the fact that he shot an arrow out of the air with another arrow - its highlighting a weakness in the first claim to dismiss the whole feat.

We are getting somewhere though - you do make some good observations and comparisons. You obviously know a lot more about archery than many of us (and definitely more than me). I thoroughly enjoyed the video for what it was. It was an amazing exhibition of high speed shooting and accuracy. Its obviously not the be all and end all that Lars would like us to believe but I still found it thoroughly enjoyable, entertaining and interesting :)


And to clear up some confusion. Lars is trying to sell the most precious of commodities. He is trying to sell himself.

Exactly.

[Lysander]

That's it, I'm naming my next Archer character Lars Anderson... we'll see how well he does against 'Magic Missile' & 'Melf's Acid Arrow'. He might be cool in the real world, but now he must face the fickle fate of fantasy d20...

"For those about to die (Lars...) we salute you!"

[seycyrus]

Here is a thread in Sword Forums by a smart guy named Dan Howard. It talks about a lot of good stuff, including mail against arrows.

[Ardem]

where is the link?

[seycyrus]

where is the link?

Woops, my apologies.

https://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?41041-Armour-FAQs&s=

Here's another link to a video from Lindy Beige on chain mail with some discussion regarding arrows near the end. There is a part 2 and 3 in which arrows(especially first part of part 2) are also discussed. Lindy is a valuable resource for all things medieval. He is a big proponent of, "our ancestors weren't idiots".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RssIl2v0C1k&list=PLCA860ECD7F894424&index=33

[Ardem]

Thanks for this it was very informative.

I like the direct historical quotes compared to Lars summations. I believe we have lost the art of making very good mail, and this is the reason why Lars believe he can shoot against mail in this way. Also he makes no reference to shields which in a fight where he is close to the battle, would make his very vulnerable to a counter then killed by a sword.

Perhaps where Lars fight is against a few villains this style of combat would work, however with so many people around it would probably normally get you killed by a axeman with a shield who flanks you. So much for all that training.

[seycyrus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDbqz_07dW4