Fantasy Grounds II for Eclipse Phase [Archive] - Fantasy Grounds Message Boards

dcgreenwood

December 15th, 2014, 16:33

The Eclipse Phase – Fantasy Grounds II project
I have seen occasional queries concerning creating an Eclipse Phase Ruleset (i.e. library) for Fantasy Grounds II, but can find no evidence that anyone has been able to create anything.

For those of you unfamiliar with Fantasy Grounds, FGII is a virtual desktop application designed to facilitate online Role Playing Game play. You can find more details at

www.Fantasygrounds.com

(since you are on this site, you likely already know this

I have used it very successfully with the game system Warhammer Fantasy Role Play 3 for the last 6 months – I and another GM run a weekly games using FGII and Skype. You can see details on in the Obsidian Portal at

https://www.obsidianportal.com/profile/dcgreenwood

Like Eclipse Phase, WFRP3 is a great system but it is difficult to find enough local players to find a live group, and FGII has proved a great way to bring together players from literally all around the world. Our current group of WFRP3 players has 10 players from Asia and the Americas.

I'd personally very much like to get into Eclipse Phase games, but likewise have not found local players. Therefore I would like to see if I can get a group of interested players together to work together to develop the needed libraries to play Eclipse Phase online on Fantasy Grounds II and then, of course, start regular games.

If you are interested in involvement, please respond to this forum posting. I'll follow-up with details of how I think we can approach this.

Blacky

December 15th, 2014, 19:21

I can lend a hand to anything that's not coding.

ianmward

December 15th, 2014, 21:17

I'm keen to see it done, as I would love to play. I have a number of other projects on a the moment, however, so I won't be able to dedicate much time...

dcgreenwood

December 16th, 2014, 05:24

I should start by saying I have not yet dived into the structure of the libraries, but hope to over Christmas. The WFRP3 library that we use needs a few fixes and I was hoping to use that to gain some familiarity.

For Eclipse phase, I am thinking that a good way to start would be to find the closest match existing library and then hack it, rather than start from scratch. I don't know much about the other systems for which libraries exist. I've never played pathfinder. One thing you can help with is if you know some of the other game systems, compare them to Eclipse phase and recommend which might be the closest match. I'm thinking maybe the Core RPG, but that's only because it is a percentile system.

Obviously anyone who can dive into coding would be great. But making the above recommendations - where to start, is a help.

Also, if you know Eclipse phase well, and have played other FGII games, you can help come up with a prioritize list of features to first add to the library.

Are you an Eclipse Phase GM? Want to do some trials with the Core RPG (or a similar system) with a few patient players, trying to play a session on line, and use that as a brainstorm launching pad to decide what we should work on first?

So ways that someone can help are:
Coding the library itself, or hacking an existing one.
Using knowledge of other systems to advise on which library might be a good starting point.
Advising on how to take an existing library and what to change to make useful for FG.
Searching the net to see if there is anyone else working on something similar.
Brainstorming about an approach, including in game trials of basic Fantasy Grounds.
Be one of those trial players.

ianmward

December 16th, 2014, 11:25

ok, so a few comments.

The term we use for a 'library' which adds support for a new game is a 'ruleset'. We use the term 'library' for a module containing the actual rules for the game, usually including draggable elements for things like skills or equipment.
The rulesets contain all of the programming (XML and Lua Scripts), fonts, images and icons to make FantasyGrounds look like the game we want to play. This includes the character sheets, NPC sheets, combat tracker and other elements.
The recommended approach for creating a new ruleset is to extend the CoreRPG ruleset, this gives you a good base which you can extend by replacing just the bits you want to change, typically the character sheet and some personalisation of the combat tracker.
One way to do this is to find another ruleset which is (as you suggested) similar to the game you want to support and to modify it. This can help but can also make maintenance herder as there will be lots of stuff 'left over' from the other ruleset which you may not need.
I don't know enough about the ins and outs of the EP rules to say which existing game is closest but it may be Call of Cthulhu or BRP as they are percentile systems.

I would love to be one of the trial players and will probably end up helping with the coding if you need it, but like I said, I do have a load of projects already...

damned

December 16th, 2014, 11:48

BRP would not be a good test case as there are quite a few issues with the ruleset.
Cthulhu is a fairly basic ruleset but it is % and is CoreRPG.

If you could perhaps post a Character Sheet and some core mechanics...
That would help people who are not neccesarily across EP brainstorm with you on dev ideas and sources...

dcgreenwood

December 16th, 2014, 15:30

You're right - I was being loose with terminology. My guess is we need both a ruleset and library. Do you have any suggestions on what to tackle first? My guess is that the Ruleset is more technically difficult, while the library is more work, but I don't know. I have done some coding in my distant plus (C++) but no xml. If I end up doing it myself, my guess is I'll be able to copy/modify existing content, but may find whole new functionality difficult. For someone who is a novice to xml and the FG library and ruleset structures, can you suggest what to start with?

I've attached a character sheet. Eclispe Phase has a good set of Quickstart Rules here (too big a file to attach)
https://www.eclipsephase.com/qsr

dcgreenwood

December 16th, 2014, 15:31

Nylanfs

December 16th, 2014, 16:43

https://eclipsephase.com/resources are a bunch relevant info that may be of use.

dcgreenwood

December 17th, 2014, 04:22

Thanks, that is where I got the Character sheet. But yes, it is a great resource. Too bad it doesn't have a FG ruleset!

soulcat

December 17th, 2014, 06:50

Also Check out https://robboyle.wordpress.com/eclipse-phase-pdfs/ , they are released under creative commons, and Rob Boyle is the lead developer of the game. I ran a game for about 2 years, it is a great system. I would love to help out however I can on this, since I would love to try the game from the players side. I just recent got Fantasy ground and it is great to play with.
Some thing I should mentioned about the game just for a summary for anyone planning on developing:
Your main identity is known as your ego, and it is where your main stats (unmodified) exist.
You wear a body called a morph, which can be switched, like a set of clothes if you have the resources. These body modify your stats, as well as add extra abilities.
You have traits, which are linked to either your ego (permanent) or Morph (Exist for as long as you are sleeved into that body).
It is a class-less system, purely skill base, with your skills being the basis of what you can do.
Your skills are based upon relevant stat for skill plus point spent on it.
It is a percent dice based system. With rolling under a skill required for success, doubles are criticals (successes if under, failures if over). 30 under/over is exception success failure.

It is also a lot of fun, and you can play around with some pretty esoteric concepts.

ianmward

December 17th, 2014, 08:03

Great summary, thanks!

I don't know the Creative Commons license agreement very well. Does it allow us to redistribute the text of the books in a different form?
If so we will be able to create a library module including the books which will be great.

We could create a type of object to represent a morph and allow it to be dragged to the character (Ego) similar to dragging armour, weapons or skills.

Ian

Also Check out https://robboyle.wordpress.com/eclipse-phase-pdfs/ , they are released under creative commons.

soulcat

December 17th, 2014, 08:29

I do believe it does allow the redistribution of the texts in a different form. Actually here is the link to it on the Eclipse phase page https://eclipsephase.com/cclicense .

soulcat

December 17th, 2014, 08:31

If you go to https://eclipsephase.com/cclicense it gives a quick summary of the license, as well as a couple of exceptions.

Blacky

December 17th, 2014, 12:43

Eclipse Phase is under a CC BY-NC-SA, meaning attribution, non commercial, share alike. Meaning yes it's very possible to make an Eclispe Phase ruleset for Fantasy Grounds, to reuse any content from the rulebooks in it, as long as we don't sell it.

Or, given that Rob is a pretty decent editor/manager and pretty open, it should also be possible to get a deal and sell it on Smiteworks store. In any cases, a working prototype is needed before anything else (it's not the first time Eclipse Phase had some kind of group movement, until now nothing came out of it).

As for the game, it can be somewhat complex, and changing morph can take some time. FG would work greatly here, doing all the math for the players, as Ian said just drag & drop a new morph unto a character! All the mechanism are here.

To make an Eclipse Phase ruleset we need first and foremost someone to code it. That's the main missing skill. Once there is someone like that, all the rest (graphics, design, testing, attention to details, library building) can be done.

dcgreenwood

December 17th, 2014, 14:41

Next week I plan to spend some time with the code in the WFRP library to fix/expand some things and that will tell me whether or not its possible for me to do something with Eclipse Phase. But it would be far more effective if someone who had real experience with xml could help out. But I'll see what I can do.
What I am getting from discussion so far is that we should start with the Core RPG, though it would be good if someone with some EP knowledge could take a look at the Call of Cthulu ruleset and see if it has enough parallels to be useful (or any other percentile based ruleset).

Is anyone up for doing an exploratory session with CoreRPG over skype and just see what is missing to be able to make it minimally functional?

Blacky

December 17th, 2014, 21:20

I doubt any other ruleset is close enough to warrant anything but a CoreRPG foundation.

CoC is neither free nor open, could lead to some issue.

damned

December 17th, 2014, 22:08

dcgreenwood - the XML is not the issue. its the LUA that makes stuff happen.
i have zero bandwidth (and only limited skill) for another project right now....

Blacky

December 17th, 2014, 22:19

dcgreenwood - the XML is not the issue. its the LUA that makes stuff happen.
i have zero bandwidth (and only limited skill) for another project right now....
That wasn't my experience. There's a ton of good Lua book out there, even if a tinkerer's code is neither secure nor really optimized for FG it doesn't matter that much.

It's the XML. Well not the XML per se, that could be explained in 5 minutes to any 9 years old without issue. It's The FG database, and controls, and well how to do things, where to find things. Wanna alter the way the dice are rolled? Even if you could do that with one hand in Lua, you'll need to parse all the XML files code with a lot of FG dev knowledge to find where is it done, how is done, and how to modify this while not rewriting everything to keep some degree of CoreRPG layering. It's that jungle that weed out the Sunday coders and the tinkerers, and only let alive people with enough dev skill and will to swift it through.

ianmward

December 18th, 2014, 07:31

You will want a new ruleset layered on CoreRPG.

This will give you all of the features of CoreRPG as well as knowing these will be improved moving forward, with the addition of a specific Character Sheet for all of the stats.

I would not do anything based on a ruleset which does not layer on top of CoreRPG at this point.

kaynorr

December 18th, 2014, 16:22

While I can't contribute anything to this effort right now (I think GUMSHOE is going to be my first from-scratch attempt at a ruleset), I wanted to chime in and say that I've always felt that Eclipse Phase made an exceptionally good fit for a VTT in general, and Fantasy Grounds in particular. Many of the game's drawbacks come from the complexity of the Ego/Morph system, and all the number fiddling that has to happen when you resleeve. Having that math automated would go a long way towards letting you keep the complexity of the system (which is a big selling point, at least for me) while making it much more approachable and easy to run. Good luck!

dcgreenwood

December 19th, 2014, 05:04

It's that jungle that weed out the Sunday coders and the tinkerers, and only let alive people with enough dev skill and will to swift it through.

Unfortunately Sunday Tinkerer sounds like a pretty good description of me....Maybe this isn't going to be doable.

dcgreenwood

December 22nd, 2014, 16:48

Not to give up though. I've got a couple questions for the community.

First, I looked through the FG wiki for a modern type theme, and the only one I found that works with CoreRPG is Traveller, which is OK but a little TOO traveller specific. I couldn't find anything else on the web. Does anyone know of a modern / cyberpunk / space travel appropriate theme?

I'm going through the rules, wanting to make a prioritzed list of what mechanics and elements are most needed to make the CoreRPG useable.
If anyone has time and interest, there are things that you can help me with.
1) Create a character template using the Core system (add all possible attributes, skills etc) to create as a template. See what works, what is missing.
2) Create some archtype test characters.
3) Open test characters into the ruleset and run through how to use the core rule set to do skill tests and actions. See how to simulate the different types of tests? What is needed in the library for core mechanics? What is missing from the ruleset in order to accomplish basic game mechanics? How to simulate damage, stress, wounds and trauma, actions? The task at this stage is to see how well the game can be played with no change to ruleset or library, just by creating modules and bruteforcing character generation and management.
4) Set up a group chat with interested players, run through 3, simulate game mechanics and discuss / prioritize the most important library and ruleset additions/changes needed.

Any help would be appreciated!

Nylanfs

December 22nd, 2014, 18:53

The Shadowrun one is fairly scifi-ish.

damned

December 22nd, 2014, 20:54

@dcgreenwood
for someone to build (code) this ruleset it is likely to require an investment of one to two hundred hours or so. it is not a trivial investment. i have bee talking with some other people and I know that there is soe interest in doing this ruleset but other projects are at various stages that need completion first.
determining the core mechanics and the interactivity required on a FG character sheet is something you can do in the meantime.
please understand that even once work begins it will probably take 6months so you are not going to see people falling over themselves to volunteer.

ianmward

December 22nd, 2014, 21:43

@dcgreenwood if you are desperate for the EP vibe but willing to forego the rules system, there are conversions for both Savage Worlds (community Savage Singularity) and Fate (official) both of which have working rulesets on FG. There are also a load of extensions and experienced players who might help you to adapt the Savage Worlds ruleset and create a library module.

As for the real rulesystem, I think it's a great idea and I will get involved, when I advance on a couple of my other projects, including Shadowrun. But damned is right. If you want to do it anywhere near well, it's not going to be a weekend's work.

Cheers

Ian

Blacky

December 23rd, 2014, 03:25

First, I looked through the FG wiki for a modern type theme, and the only one I found that works with CoreRPG is Traveller, which is OK but a little TOO traveller specific. I couldn't find anything else on the web. Does anyone know of a modern / cyberpunk / space travel appropriate theme?
If by theme you mean graphics, I can handle all the graphics of an Eclipse Phase ruleset. And I'm willing to do it, but only once there's a working prototype.

dcgreenwood

December 23rd, 2014, 06:17

OK, damned, message received. From what you say, a ruleset is not something I should consider myself. I can work on a design spec, perhaps that will help in the future.
I have started exploring the other rulesets - I sure like the Shadowrun. But looking at the others, makes me realize what a great job the developer of the WFRP3 ruleset that I'm used to (done by a guy named Philip Boujon) did, with the degree of automation and library content, including a custom die set. I see I am pretty spoiled. WFRP has the advantage that its license is kind of in limbo (at least the license holders don't care much about content duplication).

Anyway, I'm looking at the other rulesets to see if kludging a game with any of them would work better than with the CoreRPG. Mainly in having a character sheet that has the fields needed to duplicate an EP sheet. I really do like the shadow run - pity its all d6.

Thanks also for the suggestion for Savage worlds conversion. Worth looking into.

damned

December 23rd, 2014, 06:49

Im not suggesting that at all :)
It can be done - with lots of patience and lots of questions and some serious hair pulling.
Im doing a ruleset now (a simpler one I believe that EP but dont tell anyone that) so it is achievable.

There are a few guys here (not me) who are actual programmers, for whom the task is a lot easier - but still at least 100 hours (honestly) and quite possibly a lot more.
It needs to be done by someone who has a real interest in the ruleset - its a labour of love and it requires ongoing maintenance.

No matter what - it is a long term project is the point of what I was making as opposed to its not possible or you cant do it.

dcgreenwood

December 24th, 2014, 05:12

OK, but I am sure that I don't have 200 hours for such a project. If it were a matter of taking an existing one and just tweaking it, that maybe I could do. But I do think a real new ruleset is beyond me. Either way though, making a design spec would be the first thing to do, so once I've done that, that can either serve as a guide for someone else to do the coding, or maybe suggest to me some minor tweaks that would be doable.

I am going going to look at the WFRP libraries because there are a few gaps.bugs that maybe I can figure out. That could give me a little exposure to how it is set up.

Let me ask you though - approaching a new ruleset, where do YOU start? Is there a typical methodology (like start with the character sheet, then yyy, then zzz?

damned

December 24th, 2014, 05:52

where do I start?
character sheet
build the character sheet design, then make it in gimp and use xml to position all your stats etc
then build the smarts on those
then do the combat tracker
then do npcs
well - thats my approach....

and no one has 200 hours... thats why it has to be a labour of love and take 6 months (and sadly why so many projects dont quite make it).

soulcat

December 24th, 2014, 07:58

I can assist. I do know the Game system fairly well. If I have time I can do development work, though I don't know Lua, can probably pick it up fairly quick. Unfortunately I don't know how much time I will have.

Trenloe

December 25th, 2014, 19:17

@dcgreenwood - I'd recommend looking at CoreRPG rather than the WFRP ruleset. Whereas the WFRP ruleset is a great ruleset and has some amazing work and features within, it uses a much older way of laying out the files within the ruleset. You're best getting an understanding of how files are laid out in the CoreRPG ruleset as this is how most of the current rulesets are laid out and so will make any modifications you may make to or on top of the CoreRPG ruleset much easier as you'll already be familiar with how that works.

Some info on where "stuff" is located in the CoreRPG files in post #2 of this thread: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?20651-Modifying-the-CoreRPG-ruleset

leetsepeak

December 26th, 2014, 19:48

I've been trying to hack the Call of Cthulhu ruleset to do this. IIRC the latest version is built off of CoreRPG and it uses D100 stuff as its base, so I figured that'd be the easiest place to start. I've got the patience to work it but I'm hindered by my poor understanding of LUA. I have made extensions for other rulesets that I haven't released though, so there's that.

I can try to keep working on that, but I'm not sure I can actually share the base since it's built on CoC and that's a paid ruleset. I could post screenshots though?

I'm incapable of doing art assets, but if I reach the point where the ruleset itself is in working order, definitely would love to have some help with that.

damned

December 26th, 2014, 23:23

in that case look at the Trail of Cthulhu ruleset... its a community release.
i think it might have a couple of memory leaks in it but it works pretty well...

ianmward

December 27th, 2014, 00:10

in that case look at the Trail of Cthulhu ruleset... its a community release.
i think it might have a couple of memory leaks in it but it works pretty well...

The problem with ToC is that it's d6 based not d100, so it might be quite different.

damned

December 27th, 2014, 00:13

can that idea then...
my Maelstrom ruleset conversion (when its released) is largely d100 based...
i *hope* i hope i hope it will be finished real soon...

leetsepeak

December 27th, 2014, 08:35

Posting some very basic notes I have on the CoC rules first page of the character sheet. It's just notes on what changes would need to be made. I'm no expert but if anyone can take a look at this and tell me if what I'm planning is impossible or not, that would be great.

Notes Here (https://i.imgur.com/G3VHdjR.png)

I assume autocalculation is possible for the TOTAL value of a character's Aptitudes based on observing autocalculation of stuff like Damage Bonus based on multiple values (SIZ and STR). In terms of space, I imagine I might have a problem with the CoreRPG boxes needing alot of spacing around them, and I want to make the 7 aptitudes fit on a grid-like placement like I have on there already.

I just realized that the grid placement of Aptitudes means the boxes containing each value takes up half the total space, so it'd actually be pretty easy to fit all the Aptitudes in the box that Attributes currently reside in.

It's very late, so I'm gonna turn in, but I'll start messing with some concepts and post screenshots tomorrow.

EDIT: I feel I should post my explicit goals to make it clear what I intend to do:

I intend to make

A character sheet with functional boxes and placement of resources
TENTATIVE: Rolls that recognize when you roll doubles. I have never messed with dice before, just modified character sheets, so I'll probably ask a bunch of questions if I try to do this. If I do this, I'll definitely do so after I've finished the character sheet
NPC SHEETS: This actually shouldn't be too hard. I'd just fix up the NPC sheets to make sure they have all the info you'd need. I'd base this off the stats given in the NPC Files released for free by Posthuman Studios.
COMBAT TRACKER: Make sure the information it displays is stuff actually relevant to Eclipse Phase. Warning, I have never touched a combat tracker before, and I am honestly not sure if this is possible
SEEK ASSETS: I will try to find art assets that look good, but they'll mostly be standins. If I can get real nice art or help on this, I'd love to have it.

It's ambitious, but I'm trying to just focus on one thing at a time, starting with the character sheet. We'll see where we can go from there.

As an aside for anyone more officially involved: If I replace the assets and make sure it doesn't include the modules, would releasing this to people still be frowned upon since it'd obviously be heavily based in the work done for the Call of Cthulhu CoreRPG overhaul?

ianmward

January 6th, 2015, 10:50

Eclipse Phase on Bundle of Holding... Ends soon. Get it here (https://bundleofholding.com/index/current)

ianmward

February 23rd, 2015, 07:18

Is anyone still working on this?

damned

February 23rd, 2015, 07:27

Is anyone still working on this?

Ahem. We already discussed this. SR4 first.
:)

dcgreenwood

February 24th, 2015, 05:56

damned

February 24th, 2015, 11:40

After trying I realized I don't have the skill for it.
But one of the players in my WFRP campaign has been learning by modify the library and is getting quite good at it so I'm going to see if he is interested in trying.

It is absolutely not a trivial task - even if you are a programmer.
I tried twice - the first was only about 8 hours worth, the second maybe 20 hours worth - and made SFA progress.
Im not sure why I tried I third time but some really great people here persisted with me and I got there - but it takes a considerable investment in time.
Maybe, just maybe, you might try again at a later date - but maybe with something less complex that EP.

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ianmward

February 25th, 2015, 07:16

I am sooooooo tempted...

damned

February 25th, 2015, 07:19

Its a trap and you know it. Roll a d6 to save.
Finish Shadow Run first!
If you start this before you finish the other I bet they will both be unfinished in a years time!

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ianmward

February 25th, 2015, 07:31

I know, I know.. But I so want to play EP...
I'll be quick and finish SR4 v0.9...

Brenn

May 31st, 2015, 19:13

Yeah conceptually EP can go so many different places theme wise. You wanna run SG1 style, you can do it. You want some dark cyberpunk style, you can do it. You want some pure Clarke feeling SF, you can do it... etc. It looks to be a great system and I've been wanting to run it for my group- which is mixed some are f2f some are FG/Skype.
I think that a robust FG2 implementation would be essential for me to run this game, however, which is why I found this thread.
I've done quite a bit on the LUA side of things in FG2 in the past. Enough to know this- I can script the mechanics of this game. Time consuming to some degree, but very doable. What I absolutely want no part of is the design of the interface. I so wish there were something where you could visually layout stuff. Dealing with the XML layout in FG2 kills me, while I can manage it- I hate it and have no desire to do it.
I will code/help code (no GUI design/layout) this ruleset if there are other parties interested- with one caveat: I know in the past there was mention of migrating FG to unity. If that is truly on the horizon I would want to wait and do this implementation from within Unity with C# as it would just be better on all levels. I don't drop by here much as of late, so I don't really know where FG stands in regards to unity.

As far as visual style (not fuctionality) I think the online character generator (https://eclipsephase.oook.ch/Creator/version4/index.php) looks pretty good. Above that is the actual style and layouts of the books which are fabulous. I have hardcovers on the main, panopticon and transhuman. Just awesome.

leetsepeak

December 7th, 2015, 06:49

100% serious, I've been running EP on Roll20 and been very unhappy with it. If I got some assistance with this, even in the most rudimental fashion, I'd be more than happy to run games to celebrate it.

I made strides in my version of the ruleset, but then stumbled because I didn't know how to implement certain functions.

ianmward

December 7th, 2015, 12:04

What problems did you face? I'll see if I can help you out, though I am really busy with a couple of other projects...

Vulnero

December 30th, 2015, 02:32

So I read the documentation on how to make a ruleset.... looks like I don't have time (I have a family that consists of small children that need my attention), or the skill (to do it right).

I really hope someone works on this. I can help with moral support!

ianmward

December 30th, 2015, 09:17

It's on my list of things to do, but nowhere near the top...

kaynorr

January 13th, 2016, 20:40

I've started work on this as of this morning. It's my first ruleset so may be slow going but I think it's within reach. My goal for the first release is a functional character sheet with basic tests. Morph modifiers will have to be calculated manually but that's a major goal for beta 2.

damned

January 13th, 2016, 21:48

kaynorr

January 13th, 2016, 22:35

Excellent kaynorr. Starting with the Charsheet is the best place I think.
You should make this as a CoreRPG based ruleset to gain the best access to CoreRPG current and new features and to reduce dev load.

Yes, I'm basing from CoreRPG and learning as I go. First victory (morph tab on the character sheet that is a copy of the abilities tab) and first roadblock (d100 dice on the desktop). I'll be making a query about the later shortly.

damned

January 13th, 2016, 22:54

Yes, I'm basing from CoreRPG and learning as I go. First victory (morph tab on the character sheet that is a copy of the abilities tab) and first roadblock (d100 dice on the desktop). I'll be making a query about the later shortly.

Boom! Well done.
Test your tab too and make sure that it isnt also referencing the same Ability data as the first tab :) Thats a complicated tab.

You can remove dice but I dont think you can add new dice to the screen. I dont have Rolemaster but I think they implemented some sort of workaround for this...
For the most part if you are rolling from your CharSheet you dont need %dice on the table top?