PFS Build Help- Grappler

[Trueshots]

Ok guys I'm going a little crazy preparing for Blackfoots game. I have a toon with 3xp that I want to completely redo before the game friday. Ive been working on it a good bit and posted a good bit on the Paizo forums but my post got ninja'd and derailed. Anyway figured you veterans here would help me work out my issues. SO let me give you some back ground.

I want a 100% grappler in the spirit of the Famous Gracie Family of Brizialn JuiJitsu :) So. I was originally thinking the Monk with the Tetori archetype. (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/tetori) But after reading I was thinking of splashing in White Haired Witch (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/classes/base-classes/witch/archetypes/paizo---witch-archetypes/white-haired-witch) and Brawler. Even possibly making a majority of levels Brawler with the Strangler Archetype. (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/brawler/archetypes/paizo---brawler-archetypes/strangler)

So my goal for the character is to act speedily, and grapple the opponent, and either tie him up, choke him out, submit, etc. I would also like the ability to have one hand free to beat the ever living crap out of him if necessary. But the main focus would be wrapping him up while my allies destroy him.

I like 2 levels of White Haired Witch because of the hair being a grab and at level 2 it being a constrict. Obvious about 6 levels of the Tetori get you tons of "free" grappling feats. The brawler gets you the ability to put enemies to sleep, along with add sneak attack damage from the grapple. SO much good stuff in all this and I have no problem multi classing.

BUT, I need to be honest, there so much I'm just plain confused about. I can't tell if certain free abilities are overlapping and what purchased "grappling" feats I need to purchase through the ranks. The hair from the witch has got me all jacked up on how it would even work.

PLEASE PLEASE someone help me understand this on a childlike level :)

Also for races I was think Human or Halfling. Human build would be all strength based, the halfing would be dex based with high CMD, from the brawler. I am currently assimar so I think I can technically stay that as well but it doesn't matter to me, I want to max the ability to grapple that even The gods themselves can't escape!

Thanks for any help you can provide.

[Malkavian_Andi]

First of all, I'd go with a medium-sized race. Small races get a -1 to CMB and in most cases it would be smart to take the Agile Maneuvers feat, which takes away a feat slot you can otherwise fill with other fun stuff. Also, you can purchases a Wand of Enlarge Person (only if you're either not Aasimar or Aasimar with Scion of Humanity) and gain additional bonuses to your CMB (+1 from Strength being increased by 2 and another +1 from being large). Damage will also be dealt based on Strength, not Dexterity.

As for the hair, that's a natural attack that uses your Intelligence for attack rolls and combat maneuver checks and that has the grab ability. Sure, gaining Constrict at level 2 opens up Final Embrace, but remember that you'll need to invest in Intelligence as well and only get a spellcaster BAB from the witch.

The Strangler definitely sounds like a good idea, since that archetype combines some nice stuff from past books that are too weak on their own.

On feats, what you definitely need is Improved Grapple and Greater Grapple. Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike) is also not bad, because you might want to deal grappling damage with unarmed strikes anyway.
There are a few feats and abilities that let you do fun stuff with grappled opponents, but I don't remember most of them. (the Rage Power "Body Bludgeon" comes to mind, which lets you use grappled opponents as a weapon, but that's too high level for PFS.)

[cmdisc]

Actually for WHW, the INT modifier is only used when rolling hair damage and when making the initial grapple check. It is not used for the hair attack nor to maintain the grapple in later rounds. Those default back to the STR mod (or DEX if you have finesse). At least this seems to be the popular interpretation on the Paizo boards. So if true, it really is pretty lousy.

Prehensile Hair from the Witch/Hexcrafter Hex, however, does use INT for both attacks and damage. So it makes a build a little less MAD.

If you're looking for a steady debuffer type build, a Magus 9/WHW 2 focusing on INT and prehensile hair is pretty solid from what I have gathered on paper as well as from those who have played it. But it doesn't start to work decently until you get to about 6th or 7th level, which is more than half-way through your character's adventuring career. The goal is to take Final Embrace after gaining the constrict ability from WHW 2 and using the grab/constrict ability with your Prehensile hair hex. With the right combination of feats and spells you can: Trip, Grapple, Entangle, Fatigue, and Demoralize your target which stacks up some significant penalties. And all this while hitting and constricting 1, 2, or 3+ times a round depending on things like haste and AoO's.

Now, there has been some confusion as to how Prehensile Hair and WHW hair interact with each other. If they do mix, then you benefit from both. If they don't, then you disregard the WHW hair (its only purpose was to get you Final Embrace) and use the Prehensile Hair hex exclusively.

This aside, however, since Assimars can no longer be started fresh without a boon, are you sure you want to change this character to human or halfling? You can always start with a fresh human/halfling grappler build and save the assimar character for something else.

[Trueshots]

Malkavain_Andi,

thanks for response. Yea I'm leaning towards the larger character but its nice to get the extra cmd bonus for halfling, extra resistances, extra AC. When working it on hero lab to 6 level my AC was like 4 higher on the dex build. Anyway. I think I only need 2 witch for sure, I'm pretty set on that. I'm now thinking either 4 brawler and rest monk. Monk at 6 gets greater grapple for free. I really like combining all three classes, I know there can be a really good build out of it for sure.

The hair is Int for damage, which isn't my main concern. They can use int for cmb instead of str. But if I go agile maneuvers its not gonna matter (dex build). This is the build I worked out last night but it needs to be tweaked HERE (https://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss9/Trueshots/ScreenShot2014-12-09at124422AM_zps68d42e2d.png)

I took a picture of all the feats and loaded them here, its so many its crazy. tell me what you think Andi. Thanks

[Trueshots]

This aside, however, since Assimars can no longer be started fresh without a boon, are you sure you want to change this character to human or halfling? You can always start with a fresh human/halfling grappler build and save the assimar character for something else.

I haven't really thought of that. I could do it either way. CMDISC let me know what you think of the build I put up, thanks

[darrenan]

Keep in mind that you've picked 2 classes that don't get full BAB which means at level 3 you'll still just have a BAB of 1, and BAB is used for everything offense oriented including CMB. This is what happens when you dilute yourself with too much multiclassing. Seems like brawler all by itself could give you most of what you want, with martial flexibility, maneuver training, bonus feats, etc. all at full BAB.

[Trueshots]

BAB is used for everything offense oriented including CMB.

Hmmm, from what I read, to initiate a grapple there is to "attack" so to speak. You simple roll you CMB against their CMD. Is that correct?

[darrenan]

Yes, and BAB is a component of your CMB (and CMD). CMB is BAB+STR, and CMD is 10+BAB+STR+DEX.

[cmdisc]

Just out of curiosity, could you give an explanation of what you are trying to do with this build? I'm not familiar with the various combinations that you have here (nor with all the grappler options out there). Maybe just a quick rundown of what you would be doing across a few rounds of combat.

[Lord Kavos]

Im currently playing a Barbarian/Brawler (Ulfgar, my drunken barbarian) - although not focused on grappling, he does have a few abilities along that line.

Barbarian archetype Brutal Pugilist is pretty good - getting an AOO when something tries to grapple you, reduced penalties while grappling, plus a couple of small bonuses as you level up that you can add to a particular CMB roll (grapple). Plus rage adds +4 Str, so adds to CMB & CMD.

Brawler's martial flexibility is very nice, Ulfgar uses it to get Improved Grapple when needed. Plus you need unarmed strike to pick it anyway, so you get that for free as a brawler, and you get a couple of bonus feats for the first couple of levels too. And you can pick combat expertise without having to have a high int, so martial flexibility can be used to go the improved trip/disarm angle as well.

There are a couple of fighter archetypes that are geared towards grappling as well -there is an unarmed fighter archetype that has some neat bonuses, and the Brawler fighter archetype gets bonuses to some CMB maneuvers (though not to grapple), extra dmg with close wp group, and menacing stance & no escape ability at higher levels.

Only issue is AC - as is a usual issue for barbarians of most types.

[Trenloe]

Yea I'm leaning towards the larger character but its nice to get the extra cmd bonus for halfling, extra resistances, extra AC.
Not sure where you're getting the impression that halfling's get a bonus to CMD from? Small size gives a -1 to CMD and CMB.

Details on how CMB and CMD are calculated here: https://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html#combat-maneuvers

Yes, halflings get a +1 to attack and AC due to being small, but for CMB and CMD this bonus is reversed. For confirmation, see the Halfling Racial Traits sections here: https://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/races.html#halflings

[Trueshots]

Not sure where you're getting the impression that halfling's get a bonus to CMD from?
Trenloe, it comes from a halfling being a brawler as chosen class. I added screenie to give you an example.

[Trueshots]

Just out of curiosity, could you give an explanation of what you are trying to do with this build?

Ok beware I'm going to give some detail and the back ground that inspired me to want to build this. I love the art of aikido and jujitsu Akidio(made famous in the States by actor Steven Segal) is complete defensive in nature which focus on redirection of the attackers motions and momentum. It as has various wrist locks, arm locks, shoulder locks, ankle locks, etc. There is no striking in "normal" Aikido. Jiujutsu, made famous by the Gracies as BJJ[Brazilian Jiujitsu], is a purely defensive style of most ground fighting also that uses, throws, trips , grapples (mainly grapples) to make ones opponent submit. Typically using arm bars, chokes, pretty much anything to get the opponent to give up.

BUT this is pathfinders and I want beat up some stuff as well. I really like the Tetori Monk line and the mix of Brawler strangler line and the Brawler Snake Bite Striker line (both can be taken at same time). So the way it looks like I can play this is, I can grapple and lock the enemy down then I have a few options : start to strangle them, strike them (even stunning fist them), pin them, beat them, tie them up, etc. Also with those lines anytime I grapple someone or maintain a grapple I get sneak attack damage. Which a 2nd level Brawler would get 3d6 automatically the way I had it set up. But heck you could throw a ton of ninja in there and get your grapples to do 5d6 per round and sometimes double that depending on what happens in the round. As most here know I love dealing damage, but in real life I love the art of non violent self defense. I just wanted to add the two together to make a character. The reason I talked about the witch, is her hair is a free grab, and a free constrict. Constrict deals damage every round like a bleed if I'm not mistaken. You have to take a pretty high level feat to get if without the witch I believe. This is just a synopsis of my idea. My main thing is as with any character you only get so many feats. I really want to know which grappling feats are absolutely necessary, which are useful and which are just for fun. Also Because the brawler line and the tetori line are so close, which feats (supernatural abilities are actually over lapping and I'm getting no credit for having both). Any light you can apply on the subject would be great. Thanks.

[Trueshots]

Can someone explain how Weapon Specialization: Grapple would work? It states it can be done in the description but no clue how it actually works. Any clues?

[Malkavian_Andi]

Weapon Spcialization: Grapple would give you +2 damage every time you deal damage as the result of a successful grapple check (usually when rolling CMB to maintain and then choose to deal damage), regardless of what weapon you use.
The same can be achieved by taking Weapon Specialization: Unarmed Strike and always dealing grapple damage with unarmed strikes. In that case, you would also get the bonus damage on regular unarmed attacks. (I chose Unarmed Strike as an example because you'll have Improved Unarmed Strike anyway.)

Btw, Aikido isn't really about grappling. I used to do Aikido, it's mainly using your opponent's force against him. The Flowing Monk archetype is exactly what Aikido does.
Sports that are about various aspects of grappling are Judo, Sumo, and Wrestling. Actually, Judo is nothing but grappling (and a bit tripping) (I used to do that, too), the combatants try to grapple each other, then move and pin the opponent, and in some cases deal damage. And they score points based on how good they perform on their grappling and tripping attempts.

On the favored class bonus: Halflings still get -1 to CMB and CMD (and the FCB only boosts CMD) plus they have to take Agile Maneuvers to be effective.
Humans, on the other hand, get the same FCB (you even get to choose which 2 maneuvers you want to be good against) and don't have the drawback of being small.

[Trueshots]

I thought I explained aikido well, I said nothing of grappling:) its the redirection of the force/energy and movement against them. Those who train with Ki are even more bad@$$ if you ask me. Although wrist locks and other locks are very common but that aspect is more hapkito.
Def gonna do human or orc now. Rt now I'm at 1 tetori monk 2 strangler/snake brawler the rest lore warden fighter, I have an insane grapple at this point just kinda working out the details and such. Good tips here though I really appreciate the help. And now because of you I'm going to have to make another character, the flowing monk ; (

[Trueshots]

Malk, also when I'm force to pick a weapon group in fighter, close and monk weapon category, cestud is no where to be found. Do u know why it's both types actually

[Malkavian_Andi]

I have a Flowing Monk in PFS. He can't do any serious damage, but he can get his AC pretty high. Even at level 1, I could get an AC 25 once per day (otherwise, it was 24). He's level 3 now, which boosts his Full Defense even more with 3 ranks in Acrobatics.
When he reaches level 4, I'll also add in a Vow of Peace for some extra Ki. That character wants to spend most of his time just blocking the bad guys' way anyway. :P

On the cestus: Look at the expanded weapon groups in Ultimate Combat. It's listed there. It's not included in the Core Rulebook because the CRB didn't have any cestus.