FG or not FG

[Valhingen]

Greetings all!

So, the short background is that after many, many years of a break in dm-ing I finally started again with a bunch of online friends and D&D 5th Edition.
We started real simple with Teamspeak for voicechat and Roll20 to roll dice, intending to improve session by session.

Now I understand this forum may be biased and to be honest, I am too - somehow I'm having a hard time getting to like and/or learn to use that site because it just feels wrong to me, personal taste and all that.
On the other hand, once I found some long videos for FG, I was instantly a fan :) Now I'm having this pro-con discussion within my group, where we got an experienced R20 fan (so I cannot really get into a subjective discussion, comparing both).

I am rather tempted to buy the ultimate edition, simply since we may have occasional guest players and changing group setup, so asking all to first pay wont make sense. I'm also ok with the price tag but some things I find hard to judge and hope you can help.

1. technical requirements - thinking of running up to 10 players + DM, are there any special requirements I need to make sure of first? Like, I think this is Win only, right? (no Mac users atm, just as an example).
Also I do not know what bandwidth me as DM and each player should really have - it would be rather sad if I were to buy the ultimate edition and it turns out not to work out for a few of us.

2. maintenace and offline servers - I saw that other thread, explaining that in my scenario here, we could not play when servers are down while the players have free versions. How often are servers offline and is it announced well in advance, like regular maintenance? Again, we usually agree on 1 particular date a month ahead of time and with so many players its hard to move last minute.

3. a minor one, tokens/art library - does it come with some huge stock of ready to use tokens or is it all up to DM/players to start creating and uploading them somehow?

4. anything else I should check first before committing?

Thank you for your time :)
Val

[Nylanfs]

I would try and get in on a one shot or demo game first before jumping in.

[Carthar]

1. I have not had issues with 5 players. I have 2Mb/s upload and it seems fine. You just need to know the size of the files you intend to share. If they are large share them well before you need them. Sending a 10MB map to everyone isn't going to be instantaneous.

2. Never had a problem with the servers going down.

3. It has some, but you are always going to want to have more tokens/art and maps. There are lots of resources out there. PRGmapshare, dundjinni foums, deviant art, etc. Most of the time you can find free good quality maps that fit unless you have a unusual setting or theme.

4. Do you know anything about firewalls and routers? You will be hosting a FG server as GM. You need to know how to port forward and give firewall permissions, if players are going to connect to your computer. You may want to try out the demo to ensure you can set these up properly. Once you get it setup though, FG works like a charm.

[Trenloe]

Some quick answers:

Yes it is a Windows app, but it can also run on a Mac in Wine.
If you're going to have 10 players at once I would recommend a 2Mbps upload and make sure the maps/images you share are less than 1MB in size. Other than that, you should be fine. A slower upload rate just means longer login time for players (1 minute instead of 30 seconds, for example) and longer time for maps/images to appear the first time you share them. Images and campaign info is cached on the player side once shared, so it is only the first time share of anything that may take a while to get to all of the players.
FG comes with some portraits, battlemaps and tokens. The tokens provided are excellent quality - they are the Characters, Creatures, Monsters - folder 1 and folder 2 lists detailed here: https://www.rpgartkits.com/?page_id=401 They are provided in both pog and transparent background style. You can also purchase a number of token and map packs from the store. Or, spend a bit of time creating your own.
As mentioned by Carthar there is the one-time setup for the GM to make sure that FG can be accessed through their internet router/firewall - players don't have to do this. Sometimes this just works, sometimes it takes a little bit of fiddling. There are threads on this forum to give pointers on how to do this and if you're stuck there are always plenty of forum members willing to help out. A piece of advice - test and set this up a couple of days before your game, not 10 minutes before you're due to start.

Another piece of advice - FG is a very powerful piece of software. With that power comes some complexity and a steep learning curve in some areas. Don't expect to jump in and use all of it's features in your first session. Take it slow - just concentrate on the main features for your first couple of sessions and then add more functionality as you and your players get familiar with the product. You'll have great fun with just the basics...

As Nylanfs mentioned - see if you can participate in a one-shot game to get an idea of how an experienced GM will use FG, or if you can't find a space in a one-shot, ask a GM if you can silently lurk in their game to see it in action.

[dulux-oz]

On the other hand, once I found some long videos for FG, I was instantly a fan :)

If those videos were mine then I'm glad they helped out.

If they weren't, then you might like to check mine out - they're on the Wiki or direct from the link in my Sig.

Either way, Welcome! to FG and let me say I 2nd what has been said before in this thread - seriously, if you've got any questions (about anything FG related) just ask.

Cheers

[Griogre]

One last comment if you plan to have more than one DM in the group then it may be cheaper to buy 4 packs of the Full license on Steam over an Ultimate since the Ultimate license locks in a GM and if you go that way then the next GM in the same group has to get an Ultimate License as well. Where if you got a couple of four packs then anyone can run in your group.

But yeah, I'd have to agree with the others, try to get into a one shot or lurk with a group for a game. Most GM's won't care as long as you are quiet. You will learn a lot watching from the player perspective as well.

[Andraax]

I'm willing to run a one shot in Castles and Crusades for your group to try it out. I have an Ultimate license, so no purchases would be needed.

[JohnD]

Valhingen, welcome to FG. A few years ago I was asking similar questions. Personally I am so glad I picked/found FG I can't do it justice with words. You will not regret your choice if it is indeed FG.

Currently I often run games with upwards of 8+ players... there are no issues as long as you are using a relatively current computer (mine was a "powerhouse" five years ago and has no issues keeping up).

I also suggest looking in on an existing game... you will learn a lot just by watching - that experience is what finally made my decision for me. Second what's been said about 4 packs of Full vs Ultimate license purchase.

[damned]

One last comment...

As if that was ever gonna be the last comment!

Last month there was some very targetted DDOS attacks on the FG server that did cause it to go down in the wee hours for US TZs. It probably had little to no effect on the US, limited impact on EU but it was in Prime Time for AUS/ASIA gamers. It has been much better pretty much since FG Con finished.
What impact did the outage cause - 3 things - This website was down so the forums were not available. You could not generate or resolve a game Alias - you needed to share the Public IP address (also display in FG) of the GMs machine to the other players. Unlicensed players connecting to a GMs Ultimate Edition couldnt connect because the license check would fail. This was the biggie for impact.
Server outages outside this are typically few and brief.

I live Fantasy Grounds - its a great app - it really really works and for the core rulesets - it does so much more than any of its competitors.
Its a great community - there are so many helpful people here.
Its a stable and mature product - about 9yrs old and a public update is released roughly every 2 months. To date there have never been and upgrade charges - eg FG1 to FG 2, FG2 to FG3 or any of the incrementals - FG 3.09 was released this week. I cant vouch for the future plans but the Smiteworks guys are genuine real people who really work hard at this product.
For Pathfinder, D&D 3.5, 4, 5e and Numenera its hands down the best product. Pathfinder and 3.5 include a bunch of source material (OGL) with the base app. 4 and 5 and Numenera require you to put your own data in but there are some great (seriously great) tools for D&D 4 and 5.
A FATE ruleset is included and is Pay What You Want - so if you use that support the game and buy it for $5 or $10.
CoreRPG is a generic Character Sheet and Combat Tracker that is pretty versatile (and will hopefully get some further improvements soon).
Then there are the Commercial Rulesets like Rolemaster Classic (if you play RMC this will make your day - all the tough stuff done for you), CallOfCthulhu, Savage Worlds (v4 about to be released) and Castles&Crusades. These rulesets all contain Source books with the Ruleset (these are commercial rulesets and require an additional purchase $10-30 I think they range from)
And there are a stack of free community rulesets - these vary hugely in quality etc but there are some gems in there.
Im not sure if you have seen these or not but there are 3 hangout videos from FGCon here: https://www.fg-con.com/latest-news/fg-con-hangout-recordings/ Id recommend #2 and #3. Im adding a Savage Worlds one that was also recorded at FG Con any minute now...
I agree - 2MBps upload would be plenty for 10players - but keep your map and images size down to under 1mb each. If you have a 1Mbps link then get your maps/images down to 300k. Honestly most maps at 50px=5' and JPG compression of 40-50% will look great and will be nice and tight on size.

Also if your not sure - burn $10 and get the Ultimate for 1 month as a test drive. I jumped straight in on an Ultimate license and havent regretted it but the 1month sub is a pretty good hedge...

[Valhingen]

Thank you all for the detailed feedback!

Some points that were mentioned...
No, it is extremely unlikely that any of my players would DM for years to come so ultimate really is the way to go. Also, thank you for the offer about letting me join a game to see FGs potential but honestly,
I need no real convincing anymore on that front :)

Dulux-Oz, the videos I watched were from Jason Hibdon here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80a8xuONrj0&index=1&list=PLePiBJtKmjLn5IzhpakEcVqAHoYfezZbe
I will make sure to check out yours too.

As for the actual decission what to use its basically about two remaining points. For one, I keep getting feedback (on our own forum; its a D&D group from a guild) leaning towards "why pay 150$ if that other program can do it all for free".
Now of course the "all" in that sentence is highly debateable and like I mentioned originally...if my first brief looks at FG went like "wow, cool" for the other one it was more like "ahem..eww" so yeah, not objective but cannot help it.

The only real concern for me that you brought up is bandwidth and server availability. On a good day my upload is 5mb so thats ok I suppose but of course its something out of my control. It does fluctuate often but I usually dont notice because I got 150mb download and thats obviously what I usually notice and use...so on a bad day, if my download crashes to 10% I can still easily handle it, not so much for my upload.
I suppose these risks I would have to live with since I cannot influence my own connections stability though that is where a pure website tool has a small advantage.

Some of you also explained that bandwidth mostly matters when I push a picture or a map my players way (so we have to wait 30 secs or something) - does that mean that while 10+1 players are in FG with all loaded and us only rolling dice, fiddling with character sheets and chatting, bandwidth is really tiny?

[damned]

Some of you also explained that bandwidth mostly matters when I push a picture or a map my players way (so we have to wait 30 secs or something) - does that mean that while 10+1 players are in FG with all loaded and us only rolling dice, fiddling with character sheets and chatting, bandwidth is really tiny?

pretty much... yep. the initial campaign download (typically one time per player) and the sharing of images/maps is the only bandwidth heavy part of the process...

[Valarian]

Also, try out the free version first. You can start up a demo campaign and have 1 player going. It'll tell you how difficult you're going to find pushing the port (1802) through the router. However, if you've played any multiplayer games and done router settings for those then you'll be fine. If you have a plug-and-play router, it's even better.

It'll also get you started playing with the software and getting used to it. If in doubt right-click. The radial menu usually pops up with options that make sense in the context.

[Valhingen]

Maybe one more thing even though I may be getting a bit ahead of myself.

We usually want to play online but every once in a while we intend to meet in person (like we did recently) so asuming we were to use FG mostly, how easy is it to get all the character information out and nicely on paper?
Also, can players inspect their characters somehow while not logged into my DM client, like between adventures?

[dulux-oz]

the videos I watched were from Jason Hibdon here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80a8xuONrj0&index=1&list=PLePiBJtKmjLn5IzhpakEcVqAHoYfezZbe

Oh yeah, Xorn's - yeah, he's done some really good ones :)

Cheers

[Trenloe]

Sounds like you'll be fine with your internet connection as far as bandwidth is concerned.

If you play 5E there is this ongoing project that exports your character sheet and formats it nicely for view outside of FG: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?22440-5E-Character-sheet-from-XML

Players can use the "Manage Characters" functionality of FG to view their PC in the state it was in at the end of the last session. They can make a copy if they wish and make changes offline that can be uploaded when they next join your session. This won't overwrite what is already there, it will upload as another PC so you can compare the before-and-after stats/abilities if you wish.

[ddavison]

Welcome to the FG Community. What game systems do you tend to run the most or are you planning to run?

[Valhingen]

Thank you :) Like I said, all D&D 5th Edition since that is what we just started. I do not expect going back to earlier editions and hopefully wont see 6th too soon ;)

[RosenMcStern]

Don't bet your money on not seeing D&D 6 anytime soon. Releases seem to become more frequent with time.

The best way to persuade your friends to leave "that other thing" is to simply show them how much better Fantasy Grounds is. This means you have to run a game and have them watch as they do absolutely no effort (macros, config, etc) and the game does everything for them, plain and simple. In order to do this you must:

a. Make sure you have no connection problems. Even the demo version should let you check this.

b. Get an ultimate license and let others join for free. Please remember that you can get a subscription license, too. It's ten bucks, and if after a month your players really do not like it you can go back to "the other thing" having only lost $9.99 - but my bet is that they will NOT want to go back.

Bandwidth is not a problem. I have run FG as a GM on a cellphone connection for months, and it worked fine.

[JohnD]

Well if you really want to reduce it to brass tacks, as the DM, you're choosing the software... if they want to play they have little choice but to comply. Other than that, RMcS has it right with his a and b above.

[ddavison]

Thank you :) Like I said, all D&D 5th Edition since that is what we just started. I do not expect going back to earlier editions and hopefully wont see 6th too soon ;)

I failed my reading comprehension check. :)

Since you are running 5E, I'd also recommend building characters as pre-gen characters and then connecting and testing each of them out using a second instance of Fantasy Grounds running as a player and connecting to "localhost". That way, when the players join for their real first session, they can focus on all the cool automation that is present and not about stressing over how to enter their abilities and features of their class. If you have any problems figuring out how to implement something, just post something up to the 5E forum and we can assist you.

I'd also recommend looking ahead to the 2nd and 3rd level versions of characters since the leveling goes pretty quick in 5E from what I can tell. As a GM, make sure you know how to take full advantage of the combat tracker, maps and party sheet. Those three things will set you up nicely.

[OTG_Wraith]

Some of you also explained that bandwidth mostly matters when I push a picture or a map my players way (so we have to wait 30 secs or something) - does that mean that while 10+1 players are in FG with all loaded and us only rolling dice, fiddling with character sheets and chatting, bandwidth is really tiny?

For the most part this is correct. (The exception is when the players call up maps that are public but you haven't loaded for them, yet. But would be much lower load than when you push a map to everyone at once.)

That being said, A GM we used to game with used to run a 9 player game on a 5mb upload comcast basic internet connection with little delay, or excessive load times.

(A page late, but hopefully still helpful and relevant.)

[Valhingen]

Just to again thank you all for your feedback - I bought the ultimate edition, created a character and monster and had one of my players connect to duke it out :)
(now heading elsewhere to post specific questions)

Edit: Loving it already!

[ddavison]

Welcome to the FG community. We're happy to have you. -Doug