PC/NPC Tokens: Map placement vs Combat Tracker order

[swest]

Greetings,

Ok, so, apparently, I have been placing things on maps and adding to the Combat Tracker incorrectly.

I'm not going to go into all the frustrating errors and ambiguous variations that we've been through, I'll just cut to the chase and ask the question: In what order do you place what and where to get a combat encounter to work properly?

Because having the players put their tokens on a map, and then opening an encounter and clicking on the 'add to combat tracker', and then adding the players to the combat tracker by dragging them to it doesn't work...

While testing ddavison's instructional video (And, by the way, the more I learn, the more I realize that some of these videos are.. well, not as instructive as you guys who already know how do do everything might think, particularly when you are coming in with very little knowledge. And you can scold me all you like, but I'm telling you how it is from the chair that I'm sitting in, ok?). Anyway, I have been trying to work through the 'Pathfinder Combat Sample in Fantasy Grounds', because it tells you how to add the channeling spell class to your cleric... and our cleric, although he didn't have much to do on Saturday, had nothing on his sheet for that. So, I'm going through and populating his character sheet with all the stuff he didn't have (all his spells were empty, just the titles... I don't know how he went about creating the sheet, but he certainly didn't drag and drop from the spell lists... anyway, that's beside the point).

So, I'm trying to add this feature to that character's sheet, per the video, and I need to have a map and an 'encounter' to test it with... so I open one of the default maps that come in the Library with FG, I open the character's sheet (I'm doing this as GM), and I drop his token on the map. Then I drag a copy of a skeleton into our campaign's encounters window, and then open the skeleton. He has no token, of course, so I open the tokens, unlock the skeleton's sheet, and drop the token onto the skeleton's sheet. Then I drag that token to the map. Then I open the combat tracker,and I drag the player's token and the skeleton's token to the CT. Then I set the turn to the PC, and go to the player's view. There, I attempt to have the PC target the NPC. No go. And it didn't matter what I did. Subconciously, I'm wondering why the tokens don't have the little green health ball associated with them (but that never really rises to a level that tells me something must be wrong). So I go around and try every variation that I can think of... nothing. So I clear it all off, and start over, and... same result, remembering the one of the definitions of insanity - trying the same thing in the same way over and over, and expecting different results...

Eventually, for whatever reason, I try to drag the token From the Combat Tracker to the map... and all of a sudden it kind of looks right, and I am able to target-to-attack and hover-to-identify (another thing that I couldn't figure out before).

So, what's the right order? If I have player tokens on the map, like I did on Saturday, because they're interacting with townsfolk NPCs to do various things, and then an encounter starts, and I press the 'add to combat tracker' button on the encounter to add the monsters to the BLANK combat tracker, how else do I get the players in there but by dragging them in?

Ok, I'm tired... time to quit this aggravated, stream-of-consciousness, typing, and just post it.

[Trenloe]

Short answer - always, always, always add the NPC and PC tokens to the map from the combat tracker, this ensures that the combat tracker record is linked to the token. The GM does this, not the players. The combat tracker is the hub of targeting, effects, etc. so the links between the tokens on the map and the record in the combat tracker needs to be established. This is done by dragging the tokens from the record in the combat tracker.

If you use the encounter functionality to pre-place tokens then this linking will be done for you when you add the encounter to the combat tracker.

[swest]

but wait... there's more.

So after getting the Channelling spell class added, and the channel damage spell, the Will Save calculates automagically, but the 1/2 damage doesn't? And you have to go into the skeleton's CT entry and correct it manually?

I'm left wondering what the point was.

[swest]

Short answer - always, always, always add the NPC and PC tokens to the map from the combat tracker, this ensures that the combat tracker record is linked to the token. The GM does this, not the players. The combat tracker is the hub of targeting, effects, etc. so the links between the tokens on the map and the record in the combat tracker needs to be established. This is done by dragging the tokens from the record in the combat tracker.

If you use the encounter functionality to pre-place tokens then this linking will be done for you when you add the encounter to the combat tracker.

But what if the player tokens are already on the map?

I guess that means that, the players are not supposed to put their own tokens on the map, right? If I have a map on which there will be, eventually, an encounter, then I:

1. Open the combat tracker
2. Add All the characters to the CT
3. Place the characters token from the CT onto the map, someplace, and let
4. Let the player move his/her token after that

right?

[Trenloe]

If you want the tokens on the map to be linked correctly to the combat tracker then *only the GM* put tokens on the map - be it PCs or NPCs.

If tokens have already been placed on the map which aren't linked to the combat tracker then remove them first.

[swest]

If you want the tokens on the map to be linked correctly to the combat tracker then *only the GM* put tokens on the map - be it PCs or NPCs.

If tokens have already been placed on the map which aren't linked to the combat tracker then remove them first.

Understood.

As always, thanks.

- s.west

[swest]

I should probably open a new thread for this question, but I hate clutter (esp. if there would only be 1 or 2 responses), so I'll put it here.

It occurred to me that, with respect to this 1/2 damage on a successful will save, I thought, Hey! I'll just go back to the character's sheet, add another line of damage (to the Channel Damage 'spell'), that is 1d6/2. Then, since I'll see (as GM) the success/failure of the NPC's saving throw, I (as GM) will roll the correct damage based on the outcome, and no one but me will see it. Which is the right thing...

However, I can't add another damage line to the spell, can I?

It looks like I would have to add another spell altogether... That's unfortunate.

[swest]

D'oh! I CAN add another 'spell action'! Whoo hoo! That solves the problem (sort of).

Ok. I'm through now.

[swest]

Oh, wait... I can add another spell action, but there's no way to make it divide the die roll by 2...

bummer. back to square one.


D'oh! I CAN add another 'spell action'! Whoo hoo! That solves the problem (sort of).

Ok. I'm through now.

[swest]

Well, my original premise was off anyway... the player DOES see damage rolled by the GM (on his behalf)...

hmm....

[Trashkicker]

i'm sure this has been said but I always add everything via Combat Tacker otherwise you will have problems.

As for Encounters there are two ways to approach it:

1 - if you have time before you play, place the tokens on the map from the encounter (a check mark will replace the tokens that you have placed) then close the encounter. Later when you are playing you click the "Add encounter to combat tracker" and it will add them to the combat tracker and place them in the predetermined locations.

2 - if you don't have time before hand you click the "Add encounter to combat tracker" first then drag them from combat tracker over to the map.

And lastly for half damage I tend to try and use the Modifiers button (the +/- button on the top right). In the Damage section use the Half button before rolling damage will half the damage for you.

[swest]

But the player has to do the 1/2 damage, right? So the DM would tell them that they did 1/2 damage? and they would open up their own Modifiers window, and apply the 'Half' to their damage roll?

That tells them that the creature made its saving throw... and, technically, isn't that GM-only knowledge?

That's what I'm trying to get past.

Thanks.

[Trenloe]

If you want to hide whether a creature made a saving throw then it is up to the GM to apply damage.

The usual process for channeling is as follows (all player driven):

The player has their channel setup as a special ability (or similar) spell class in the actions tab, with a cast button (with the correct will save set) and the damage setup.
When the player channels to harm they target all of the creatures who will be affected.
The player presses the cast button. The saves are made based off the "Cast" settings (the players don't see the rolls) and any creatures that made the save are removed from targeting, leaving the ones that failed still targeted.
The player clicks the damage button to apply full damage to those who are still targeted (failed their save).
The player then removes the targets (click the remove target button at the top of the image). Right-clicks on the damage entry in the chat window and selects "half". Then drags the half amount to the remaining creatures who were originally targeted but didn't take damage.

If you want the saves to be invisible to the players then just get the player to click the damage button to roll the damage, but not have any targets selected. The GM can then roll saves manually and can apply full damage (drag from the damage entry the player rolled in the chat window) and half damage to the appropriate creatures (right click and select half then drag to the creature).

[swest]

If you want to hide whether a creature made a saving throw then it is up to the GM to apply damage.

The usual process for channeling is as follows (all player driven):

The player has their channel setup as a special ability (or similar) spell class in the actions tab, with a cast button (with the correct will save set) and the damage setup.
When the player channels to harm they target all of the creatures who will be affected.
The player presses the cast button. The saves are made based off the "Cast" settings (the players don't see the rolls) and any creatures that fail the save are removed from targeting.
The player clicks the damage button to apply full damage to those who are still targeted (failed their save).
The player then removes the targets (click the remove target button at the top of the image). Right-clicks on the damage entry in the chat window and selects "half". Then drags the half amount to the remaining creatures who were originally targeted but didn't take damage.

If you want the saves to be invisible to the players then just get the player to click the damage button to roll the damage, but not have any targets selected. The GM can then roll saves manually and can apply full damage (drag from the damage entry the player rolled in the chat window) and half damage to the appropriate creatures (right click and select half then drag to the creature).

Is this what you meant to type? Items 3 and 4 appear to conflict with each other...

[swest]

However, I tried this with my cleric and skeleton, and, in either case, save FAILURE or save SUCCESS, the skeleton is still targeted.

?

[Trenloe]

Is this what you meant to type? Items 3 and 4 appear to conflict with each other...
Yeah, you're right - I should have said "the creatures that made the save are removed from targeting". Good to know you're on the ball! ;)

[Trenloe]

However, I tried this with my cleric and skeleton, and, in either case, save FAILURE or save SUCCESS, the skeleton is still targeted.

?
Yeah, for single targets it doesn't remove it unless you set the campaign option "Target: Remove on miss" from the default of "Multi" to "On".

[swest]

Yeah, for single targets it doesn't remove it unless you set the campaign option "Target: Remove on miss" from the default of "Multi" to "On".

I need to go through all those options... I haven't even looked at them :(

I'm going to try it with the changed option, but how will it behave differently? Why isn't just 'on' or 'off'? In other words, what does 'multi' get you?

Thanks.

- s.west

[swest]

And that's a Player option? Or does the 'Client' setting from the GM override?

[Trenloe]

Details of the 3.5e options here: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/wiki/index.php/3.5E_Options

"Target: Remove on miss" is controlled by the GM.

[swest]

Almost there.

Ok, so now I have 2 skeletons. Skeleton 1 makes his saving throw, and Skeleton 2 doesn't. The PC rolls damage, and affects the, still-targeted, Skeleton 2, that failed his saving throw. I then try to have the GM drag the PC's damage roll from the GM's chat window to Skeleton 1, that made its saving throw, after selecting 'Half' from the Modifiers window, and all I ever see is:


Damage [0] -> [to Skeleton 1][RESISTED]

?

[swest]

Just tried again from the beginning.

This time, it said:


Damage [0] -> [to Skeleton 1][HALF][RESISTED]

?

[Callum]

It looks as though the damage isn't marked as "spell damage" - it's being treated by FG as weapon damage, and since it isn't marked as bludgeoning (and is 5 or less), the skeleton's DR is reducing it to 0.

[swest]

It looks as though the damage isn't marked as "spell damage" - it's being treated by FG as weapon damage, and since it isn't marked as bludgeoning (and is 5 or less), the skeleton's DR is reducing it to 0.

Well I have tried every variation I can think of. And, just to be clear, I am dragging the damage roll (in the white oval) over to the creature. And it does show as 'damage' (with the little red teardrop).

And, again, the PC's roll says:


[DAMAGE] Channel Damage [TYPE: bludgeoning,spell (1d6=2)]

and when I drag that and hold it over the skeleton, it shows


DR: 5 bludgeoning

in the little tooltip window

and in the chat window it says


Damage[0] -> [to Skeleton 2][RESISTED]

??

So am I just out of luck here? Isn't this supposed to work?

Thanks.

- s.west

[swest]

Now I have weirdness with this forum software... I just received an e-mail saying that:


Trenloe has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - PC/NPC Tokens: Map placement vs Combat Tracker order - in the 3.5EPathfinder forum of Fantasy Grounds Message Boards.

It gives a thread location (this thread), and even gives the content:


Don't give it any damage types in the damage entry, just make sure "Spell Dmg?" is set to "Yes".
...

And yet trenloe's post is not showing up in this thread... That's weird!

[swest]

Well, anyway, to respond to Trenloes' guidance:

Yes, I added 'bludgeoning' to the damage type, just to see if it would make a difference, which it didn't.

But I have removed it (so that now it again looks like the example in your dropbox screenshot), and I get the same results as before.

??

- s.west

[swest]

Maybe it's the NPC's definition? It's the 'Skeleton' NPC taken directly from the PFRPG Bestiary module supplied with FG...

[Trenloe]

I deleted my post after posting it as I realised I was wrong.

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?22293-Damage-without-dice-doesn-t-apply-damage-type&p=190454&viewfull=1#post190454

[swest]

I'm not sure that this is damage without dice (in reference to the other thread)... If I pick up the damage bubble (in the chat window) and instead of dropping it on the skeleton, drop it into the chat window, I see:


[DAMAGE] Channel Damage [TYPE:spell (1d6=1)]

What do you think?

[Trenloe]

You're dragging the result of the dice roll, not a new dice roll. Pick the result up and drop it again in the chat window, it doesn't roll the dice again it just keeps the original result. Hence this is damage without dice.

[swest]

I have another result that I have captured a screenshot of for your edification.

In the screenshot, the PC has targeted both skeletons, cast his channel (Skeleton 1 fails his save, and is still targeted, skeleton 2 makes his save and is de-targeted), then rolled damage (6), which kills Skeleton 1.
I (the GM) then pick up the damage balloon from the chat window and drop it on Skeleton 2, with the result that you see. This should give you everything that is coming into play here...

[swest]

You're dragging the result of the dice roll, not a new dice roll. Pick the result up and drop it again in the chat window, it doesn't roll the dice again it just keeps the original result. Hence this is damage without dice.

I thought that the fact that it included the '(1d6=1)' in the dropped result, meant that it was damage with 'dice'... Ok, then, so this is another manifestation of the bug referenced by your link?