AaW censored my feedback on Rise of the Drow campaign

[JerryRig]

Purchased some of the pdf's from Adventure a Week (AaW) website of their level's 1 to 20 Rise of the Drow campaign materials:

Rise of the Drow Prologue: the Darkness Arrives (campaign characters from level 1-6)
Rise of the Drow Prologue: VTT Maps
Rise of the Drow: VTT Maps

After playing this module for the last few weeks and bumping into a lot of content mis-advertisement by AaW on this product I left feedback as it related to what I considered its most prominent issue ...lack of useable VTT maps. They advertised heavily how great there images and maps were and the people who worked on them ...but failed to say none of these maps we useable in VTT with your parties. Apparently from the majority of people I talked too that did as i asked them too and went and looked at what was advertised and what was provided they felt as I did, it was totally misrepresentation of what was actually provided. I felt it was my responsibility to provide feedback on the materials I purchased and what I received vs. what I expected to receive. Apparently this was not what the producer and owner of AaW wanted on his feedback. He contacted me and expressed his feeling about my feedback ( 1 star ) as he felt it hurt the people who worked so hard on the making of the modules and maps. I responded and explained that it was the presentation of what was provided in the purchase as advertised and the product that was received that brought about my feedback. There was no negative feedback provided on anything else and actual one of the feedback's had positive comments about the people that made the module. He apparently decided that having 1 star feedback not written the way he wanted it was not good for his business. He has removed 2 of the 3 feedback postings I provided for other customers on the materials I purchased. It now says under both of the products "Be the first to review “Rise of the Drow: VTT Maps” or Be the first to review “Rise of the Drow Prologue: VTT Maps”. Apparently he could stomach my 3 star feedback on the module Rise of the Drow Prologue: the Darkness Arrives but not the 1 star feedback on these other 2 purchases. No slander, abusive language, or anything that could be conscribed as improper content was in any of the feedback provided.

Censorship in product reviews of our Pathfinder and AD&D 3.5 purchases (or any content for that matter) is wrong. to remove feedback as if it was not provided and to further pretend no feedback was ever made is ...well you decide the words you would use.

Feel free to contact the owner & producer on your feelings about censorship on product reviews.

owner/producer of AaW.com:


*Edited by ddavison
Removed email listing per request.

Please use https://adventureaweek.com/contact/ to contact Jonathan Nelson and AAW Games.


*I am posting this to inform our VTT users on Fantasy Grounds about the conduct of business by one of the providers of Pathfinder and AD&D 3.5 material. This is not a posting to debate why the feedback was rated as it was. It's is about informing you the consumers about the conduct of business and the censorship of us the community that purchase the products this company sells.

[No1Sciguy]

I was actually looking to run this in FG. I haven't bought the VTT pack yet, and I am having trouble figuring out what exactly you are saying the problem with using them in FG. Could you clarify?

[ddavison]

When we first went live on Steam, we had a handful of negative reviews that I believed were unfair and little more than an attempt to steer people to a competitor. I and others in the community rebutted those, but we left them up. If someone were to read the first post only and not the rebuttals or other positive reviews, it would have probably hurt our business. It may have hurt our business anyway; however, my opinion is always to leave it as is, respond and hope that your other supporters will help balance the reviews. Normally, even in negative reviews, you can pick up some actual feedback that you can take action on to improve future products and releases. We are lucky with Fantasy Grounds because we have a built-in patch system. When enough people tell us that something is a problem, we can often go in and fix it.

I picked up the Rise of the Drow set at Gen Con from AAW and I've found them to be good to work with and their products to be of good quality. I know that they, and others, don't always have maps for every situation. Triple Ace Games has excellent products but rarely includes any maps at all. I would have a hard time imagining that being worth a 1 star review, but again, I would support your right to post those opinions.

I'll shoot a note over to Jonathan at AAW Games. He is a genuinely nice guy. I just don't think he's making the best choice here. In the interest of full disclosure, he also sells his products here and on our page on Steam, but I've hung out with him personally at Gen Con and when I visited Seattle late last year.

[Trenloe]

We're slowly working through getting the Rise of the Drow converted into FG modules - starting with the prequel, The Darkness Rising. It's taking much more time than we expected as Jonathan and I have very high standards when producing modules for FG.

[AAWGAMES]

I thought we already hashed this out over email last year Dan. Here it is again copy/pasted directly from our various discussions (uncensored) regarding this.
-Jonathan (owner of AAW Games)
-----
Comment (Rise of the Drow PDF/Print Bundle):
Though the module writers, designers and contributors did an outstanding job, though AaW has seen to providing you only the modules pdf's without Virtual Tabletop content for this $125. If you want these great maps they are very proud of to use in your campaign and share with anyone playing the game ....you will have to pay much more. So you will know the maps are nice ...but your players will not ...unless you open your wallet even more to AaW. You will not be able to use the pictures of the NPC's, the maps (not to mention the lack of maps for some encounters) or tokens that the industry standard has come too for VTT.

My recommendation: Do not buy until all the VTT content is included in this $125 price.

----

Comment (Rise of the Drow: Prologue VTT maps):
These should have been included in the modules for Virtual Table Top ( VTT) play. The lack of meeting the industry standard of other module producers is the result of this low rating. Great maps if you feel they merit $9 additional cost. For this 3 book campaign they are asking $16 for the prologue, $90 for the main module and another $16 for the epilogue but you will not be provided any VTT maps as part of any of those purchases. to attain VTT maps you must purchase them separately for additional costs. 2 Stars for the producer and owner of AaW. Nice maps (worthy of 4-5 stars) in this pack if you purchase what should have been useable content with the pdf's.

My recommendation: Do not buy
*Until AaW includes the VTT maps with the module purchase at the $16, $90 or $16 current price this is not a good value IMHO. My sympathy to the artists, cartographers and writers that AaW has decided to present your contributions this way.
----

Comment (Rise of the Drow VTT maps):
The fact you have to purchase this at an extra cost is sub par. Not at all happy with having to pay additional for the maps vs. the .pdf's being unlocked and usable like most makers of modules for online gaming,
I shall not purchase another product from AaW until you remedy this and include the VTT maps in the module as usable when purchasing the module itself.
---

My replies:

In June 2014 you requested that we create VTT map files for our Rise of the Drow adventure. After working with Todd Gamble and spending 48 hours of working time in Photoshop we finally completed the conversions necessary to make these files available for you. Now you are complaining that you did not receive these files for free. I'm not sure what your objective is here and just to clarify something: there is no "industry standard" regarding VTT maps. Paizo who I consider the leader of the pack does not include VTT files with their PDF downloads so I am curious where you obtained your information.

Just to recap our original conversation started on another website, here is what I replied to you when you originally requested VTT files:

June 28th, 2014
Are you referring to VTT programs? (Virtual Tabletop)

I'm quite surprised you based your entire review (3 stars) off the RotD Prologue not being compliant to VTT programs when it was never designed or described as such. Rise of the Drow was designed for standard tabletop roleplaying first and foremost and is available in print and PDF. We do have some folks working on conversions for VTT but that will be a completely different product. I also have some of the prologue maps being converted for VTT use which will be available as a separate purchase.

What VTT program do you use? I can let you know if we have a conversion planned for it. Would also like to know if your 3 star review is based off the content of the adventure or just off the fact that it wasn't compliant with various VTT programs. Since it is the only posted review that can negatively affect others thinking about buying our product and the majority of folks understand that this is not designed for VTT as it does not state this anywhere in the product description.

Thanks!
-Jonathan
----
My private email reply to you regarding the 3 "reviews":

I am removing your reviews on the Adventureaweek.com Rise of the Drow VTT maps as they are not reviews of the actual product but your dissatisfaction with having to pay money for them. The maps are good are they not?

In the future you are welcome to either become a subscriber to Adventureaweek.com where all our adventure DO come with VTT maps as standard on the website FOR FREE or take a screenshot of the PDF adventure map and make your own VTT maps. No one is stopping you from doing that.

Have a good day Dan and remember that everyone is doing the best they can from their perspective.

-Jonathan

----

Dan xxxxxxx
9/26/14

to jonathan
I shall share your businesses censorship policies on product feedback.

----

If you have a problem with a product or a real review to write I would be happy to post it on my site. I will not however allow "reviews" to be posted by someone who is simply disgruntled because they didn't get something for nothing. That's just not a realistic view to have when shopping online. If you want to go pirate our stuff online I'm sure you can find it somewhere but if everyone starts doing that we won't be around anymore. The team that worked on Rise of the Drow (myself included) have day jobs, the RPG industry is far from a lucrative business unless you're WotC or Paizo. Try to remember that real people work really hard to bring you these products and I actually spent over a week of my time making these maps without grids or tags for you to use per your original request. That's right, I wouldn't have even crafted these had you not asked for them. I always go above and beyond for my customers.

There you go, Dan. That's all I have to say about this subject.

-Jonathan G. Nelson
AAW Games

[AAWGAMES]

Also, can you please remove my personal business email from this forum? I would be happy to hear feedback regarding our products but would prefer that customers contact us here:

https://adventureaweek.com/contact/

Thank you,

-Jonathan

[JerryRig]

Do you always use personal email contact information and information from your site either from my registration or purchasing information to identify people on other sites? Think my title here was JerryRig, not Dan xxxxxxx. I'm just checking if its ok for anyone to use your personal information or the personal information of those who interact with your company and post it wherever they want as well? Just for clarification ...left and right limits and all that ...seeing as you decided my name was not personal information utilized to correspond with you and your company.

You didn't hash anything out with me. You told me what you thought ...I replied to your thoughts. We came to no "HASH" / agreement or even respectable acceptance of my review. Then you censored my reviews because you didn't like them. My sharing of that behavior is a good thing. Consumers should no you leave a review spot but remove reviews you don't like rather then answering to them on the site or even recognizing the fact you removed reviews because you decided it didn't meet your criteria (there is no real criteria anywhere). You Mr. Nelson are so in the wrong when you did it ...and in denial still that you censored me. Maybe you live in China and were forced to remove it by the government so your not to blame? ROFL!!!!

So lets take a look again ...Yup that there above was my review and are my comments. I noticed that the 2 of the above products now reflect "zero reviews" ....Heh ...lie!
Allow me to also point out I was the only review on 2 of those products ..and of the 3rd product, I was the only verified person who has actually purchased it. So I provide my first review on my 1st purchase:

Comment (Rise of the Drow PDF/Print Bundle):
Though the module writers, designers and contributors did an outstanding job, though AaW has seen to providing you only the modules PDF's without Virtual Tabletop content for this $125. If you want these great maps they are very proud of to use in your campaign and share with anyone playing the game ....you will have to pay much more. So you will know the maps are nice ...but your players will not ...unless you open your wallet even more to AaW. You will not be able to use the pictures of the NPC's, the maps (not to mention the lack of maps for some encounters) or tokens that the industry standard has come too for VTT.

Hmmm ...looks like a review ...reads like a review ...sounds like a review. I'm now confused on this. So if I purchased some say ...dice from you ...and one of the dice was not hmmm...flat on an edge and I posted a review saying ..."awesome looking design, great paint job, but manufacturer made a mistake ...and share the mistake as I see it ...its not a review any longer it's what did you call it ..."complaining"?

Lets look at the wikipedia version (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Review) of what content would be considered a review:

A consumer review refers to a review written by a consumer for a product or a service based on her experience as a user of the reviewed product. Popular sources for consumer reviews are e-commerce sites like Amazon or Zappos, and social media sites like TripAdvisor and Yelp. E-commerce sites often have consumer reviews for products and sellers separately. Usually, consumer reviews are in the form of several lines of texts accompanied by a numerical rating. This text is meant to aid in shopping decision of a prospective buyer. A consumer review of a product usually comments on how well the product measures up to expectations based on the specifications provided by the manufacturer or seller. It talks about performance, reliability, quality defects, if any, and value for money. Consumer review, also called 'word of mouth' and 'user generated content' differs from 'marketer generated content' in its evaluation from consumer or user point of view. Often it includes comparative evaluations against competing products. Observations are factual as well as subjective in nature. Consumer review of sellers usually comment on service experienced, and dependability or trustworthiness of the seller. Usually, it comments on factors such as timeliness of delivery, packaging and correctness of delivered items, shipping charges, return services against promises made, and so on.

hmmm ...let me take a moment and look at my censored comments above .........

yup they all have the content that makes a review ...some more extended than others I agree. And yet you don't reply to the review on your site ...you e-mail me. Now where on FG website does it show my name you just used(Dan)? Didn't ask for personal contact from you ...didn't mark on your site for you to contact me on reviews or feedback or products ...and yet you contact me in my personal e-mail and suggest issues with my reviews. But I digress were here for the reviews.


I know I had read that AaW maps were VTT type ...hmmm ...where was that again ...oh ya HERE (https://adventureaweek.com/feature/maps/). "Over 200 maps in GM, Player, and Virtual Tabletop formats. All our maps are handcrafted by 3x ENnie award winning cartographer Todd Gamble (D&D 3.5, Forgotten Realms, Return to Temple of Elemental Evil) and Tommi Salama (Snow White, RotD Epilogue)."

...or was it from HERE (https://adventureaweek.com/about/faq/) " Every adventure includes high resolution GM, Player, and VTT maps by 3x ENnie award winning cartographer Todd Gamble or Tommi Salama."

Those names ...weren't they the same people that worked on RotD ...lets take a look? Yup ...so this should be VTT maps useable. NOPE. Says players will love the beautiful maps ...how will they love them if there are none for them only for the DM/GM? Must be VTT / player type maps included ....NOPE.

So I give your products another chance and pay more money for the maps. BIG MISTAKE!!

what do I get with my hard earned money ...

Maps that don't match VTT grid overlays, maps that have no doors for any rooms, no maps for some encounters. In fact there was not even 1 single player map included in the prologue ...I did not purchase the main 7-18 content or the epilogue because of the lack of content in the prologue, and further the VTT map's that followed lacked any doors or simply did not have maps for some encounters. Hell did anyone look at the size of the hallways in Adrik's Folly? Hallways that were 3-3.5 feet wide ...really? what was the cartographer thinking? They wouldn't even be able to pass each other in a hallway. I'm still trying to figure out how anyone actually got into the rooms #15 (the wall towers & gatehouse), no doors even on the GM's maps. No inside maps of how one would ascend a tower inside of it ...only some steps coming to the top of each tower from inside ...did they all crawl up the outside walls and use the steps to go inside to the bottom of some steps that lead nowhere? I'm just saying ...I haven't even begun to scrutinize this ...these were just the simple logistics of movement. How about a single map grid scale? maybe mention one in the introduction to the area if you are not going to put it on the map for reference.


Naww ...I'm going to stop now with just the maps as I did on the reviews ....wont get into the lack of continuity in play or missing content ...would take me more time then this product is worth and you will still not fix it but instead hide it, ignore it, and even if you try to fix it ...charge customers for the time you spent fixing the poor product you touted as so awesome and came up far short. Step up, take responsibility and return the Reviews to where they were placed ...do the right thing, reply on my review on your site with what you said to me in e-mail and then whatever else you want to add in another comment OR be known for your censorship of reviews so people will buy your flawed products.

Who knows if I'm the only one censored now?? Shame on you and those who made this product and support you hiding the product flaws because you don't like how its written. At least you admit it was also because it effected your profits. Kudo's for that.

Hint: Maybe next time try and let someone who did not make it try to use it first?

[JohnD]

Man I'm already full from eating popcorn over in the other thread....

[JerryRig]

More entertainment John ...lol

[Nickademus]

You will not be able to use the pictures of the NPC's, the maps (not to mention the lack of maps for some encounters) or tokens that the industry standard has come too for VTT.

Did you buy a product designed only for a VTT or simply a pdf adventure that you wish to use for a VTT? And what is the source for this 'industry standard'? Is there some restriction that keeps you, and others, from using the images of maps and NPCs from the pdf; does Print Screen not work with this product?


These should have been included in the modules for Virtual Table Top ( VTT) play. The lack of meeting the industry standard of other module producers is the result of this low rating.

Again, source? Where is this 'industry standard' that states that all pdf adventures must have formatted maps for use with a VTT.


I know I had read that AaW maps were VTT type ...hmmm ...where was that again ...oh ya HERE. "Over 200 maps in GM, Player, and Virtual Tabletop formats. All our maps are handcrafted by 3x ENnie award winning cartographer Todd Gamble (D&D 3.5, Forgotten Realms, Return to Temple of Elemental Evil) and Tommi Salama (Snow White, RotD Epilogue)."

This seems true enough. AaW has VTT maps.


...or was it from HERE " Every adventure includes high resolution GM, Player, and VTT maps by 3x ENnie award winning cartographer Todd Gamble or Tommi Salama."

This is under a section called "What comes with a subscription". Do you have a subscription? Or do you believe you are entitled to everything paying members get without one.


Maps that don't match VTT grid overlays, maps that have no doors for any rooms, no maps for some encounters. In fact there was not even 1 single player map included in the prologue ...I did not purchase the main 7-18 content or the epilogue because of the lack of content in the prologue, and further the VTT map's that followed lacked any doors or simply did not have maps for some encounters. Hell did anyone look at the size of the hallways in Adrik's Folly? Hallways that were 3-3.5 feet wide ...really? what was the cartographer thinking? They wouldn't even be able to pass each other in a hallway. I'm still trying to figure out how anyone actually got into the rooms #15 (the wall towers & gatehouse), no doors even on the GM's maps. No inside maps of how one would ascend a tower inside of it ...only some steps coming to the top of each tower from inside ...did they all crawl up the outside walls and use the steps to go inside to the bottom of some steps that lead nowhere? I'm just saying ...I haven't even begun to scrutinize this ...these were just the simple logistics of movement. How about a single map grid scale? maybe mention one in the introduction to the area if you are not going to put it on the map for reference.

This is actually normal content, and what you should have posted for the review (without the attitude). Or better yet, email the company directly with these questions and concerns. They might have told you that one of the 'industry standards' is to leave the doors off of maps and use tokens so that the door can change appearance when opened or closed. Even Paizo maps (if anyone is 'the industry' for Pathfinder, it would be them) are now being made to where the GM can switch in the pdf to see all the content for the GM map and to hide some of the content for the player map so as to be used in VTTs. The lack of maps is a valid claim. The scale issue is as well. The lack of a scale is not so much of a problem since it is problem based off common sense (is there a chair on the map?; is it filling one square or a quarter of a square?)

Hint: Maybe next time try posting this on the website of the company you have a problem with instead of bad-mouthing them here. This has nothing to do with Fantasy Grounds. It isn't a scam or fraud to remove a review; it's not something that this community needs to hear about. I hope this thread disappears.


9018

Just Jerry being Jerry. Move along people.

[JerryRig]

Hey Nic, don't troll ...cheap shooting is below you. Let the guy talk for himself ...he's an adult.

If your really interested in learning what happened grow some and talk to me in Teamspeak ..don't cheap shoot me here because of your biases ...I'm in FG TS almost every day ...come talk and get answers if you for some reason feel you (for some reason your special)justify any answers on my correspondence with the above gentleman.

[Nickademus]

A troll is someone that starts drama to provoke a response, not someone that responds to drama.

And if you wanted others not to enter your correspondence with the above gentleman, you should have kept it between yourself and the above gentleman instead of putting it on a public forum. I personally agree with AaW in this. You didn't subscribe, didn't get for free what a subscriber gets, posted negative feedback that didn't have anything to do with the quality of the product and then came here to smear the company because they removed your comments.

Like I said in my previous post, you have some good constructive criticism in your above post. You should focus on that instead of the fact that the company removed your bad reviews. Oh, and you should do it there, not here.

[JerryRig]

You attempted to stir drama like you have in the past with me. Nothing new. Your trolling. I've grown to know it right away.

Grow up Nic ...You know where to find me if you wanted to discuss it. You instead trolled this topic. You suggest I should do it where it has proven to be censored. Hello ...McFly

A quick review of your historical show's you bringing up content from other places and merchandise they are providing with your review/opinion of it. You suggest it's now not ok to discuss it because I have done it though you have done it more than the one time I have. It's ok for you to discuss other sites quality of product or lack of it but not others. Wow your not really so narrow of mind?

It's clear trolling is all your up too here Nic.

TROLLING: In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people,[1] by posting inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[4]

Several more found elsewhere that repeat the same thing: "...to post to sow discord, to go off topic and disrupt otherwise normal topic discussion." You obviously failed to read the last line of my posting when I created this topic? Hence Nic ...all your doing is trolling the topic rather then reading and moving on. I don't care who you agree with ...I never asked anyone agree with me ...dont need an agreement or even support on it. It was information only. You could have just read it like everyone else and moved along your merry way ...or decided to ask me in mail or on FG teamspeak. You wanted to troll ...so there it is ...going to continue this poor behavior Nic ...I look forward to seeing what BS excuse you say next rather then staying on the topic and not responding at all as posted. Because i tried to resolve your questions utilizing Teamspeak but you ducked away with same material and BS ....you don't want answers ...you want to troll.

..........

[dulux-oz]

OK, this has gone on long enough - I was reluctant to shut this down because of SW's "hands off" policy, but complaints are starting to come in from 3rd parties.

So, enough is enough - I'm shutting down this thread