New FG Landing page

[ddavison]

Do people prefer something more like this?
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/buyFG/indexnew.xcp
(https://www.fantasygrounds.com/buyFG/indexnew.xcp)

I'm not a natural marketing guy, so please post some positive criticism or suggestions if possible.

[SquareCat]

I'd squish the yes/no features to the right further, and put the video clips on the left. Uses up a lot of negative/empty space. . . try doing yellow for gm and player, and red for player only; like you did with the green for the ultimate. Not a marketing guy either but right now my eyes are trying to figure out where to go.

[Mgrancey]

I have to agree that is, even with its organization, chaotic looking.
I don't think have the videos embedded the way they are is very helpful to format. Even with scrolling, I prefer not to, or its kept to a minimum on these kind of pages. So I would suggest maybe the videos being a seperate column to the right.

I'd also suggest keeping the information more condense, in this case less is better. Something along the lines of: Starting automated rules set include: Pathfinder; DnD 3/3.5, 4th, and 5th ed; and Numenera

I honestly think, you might want to make what the demo/unlicensed version of FG can do on another page. Focus on the Player, GM and Ultimate license differences are, and possibly simplify that the Ultimate license allows the GM host an unlimited number of unlicensed players.

List the universal stuff that all licenses have separately:

library access
3D Dice
Programmable hot keys
Automated Character sheets
Display persistent AoE effects and pointers on images (maps)


Maybe describe or list some of the GM stuff as Campaign Management rather than seperately.
Campaign Management with content, calendar, NPCs and Combat encounters, tables for random chance,

I'm not one much for visual artistry or much for understanding other people, so my advice might not be best. However, even though there is alot to FG, that page should probably be K.I.S.S.'ed or the three S's.

[ddavison]

Roll20's front page was held up as an example of something modern and clean that was easy for people to understand and follow. Is there something there you guys like that isn't represented by the new or old pages specifically?


MGrancey, I generally lean towards more condensed chunks of info but I think that is one of the things previously mentioned as not being welcoming. I'm not sure this is it either... just saying...

[Nylanfs]

Doug we have a Webdesign volunteer working on our website and forums right now. I'll get her in contact with you. I think that sums up my thoughts. :)

BTW I would change the 4e & 5e ruleset to "Ruleset Framework" or something to indicate that you have limited data.

[damned]

My thoughts:

Colours are a bit off
Full screenshots are too big
Hard to see the comparison when its over so many pages - i would put a [demo] or [video] link in all those instead
Sort the Features into the most important ones first or grab the core features at the top and then group other features after that
You should experiment with Symbols too:

Fully Supported
Partial Support (withe explanation below)
Not supported

You need better names for the licenses - stop changing them once you settle on them
this is not my recomended view but you can see how much easier this is to read.

7443

I dont think you should include: Create custom ruleset or extension using xml and LUA scripting - it implies these 2 editions assist in that....
I think you can also install other rulesets on the demo/free license too?

[damned]

Doug we have a Webdesign volunteer working on our website and forums right now. I'll get her in contact with you. I think that sums up my thoughts. :)

BTW I would change the 4e & 5e ruleset to "Ruleset Framework" or something to indicate that you have limited data.

Agreed - Ruleset/Framework or Ruleset/Mechanics
This applies to Numenera and CoreRPG too.

[ddavison]

Agreed - Ruleset/Framework or Ruleset/Mechanics
This applies to Numenera and CoreRPG too.

So then wouldn't we have to change the Wiki to indicate that each ruleset there is a ruleset/framework only too? Instead of listing it as a negative, I thought it would be better to highlight that 3.5E and PFRPG are rulesets + OGL Libraries. That's consistent with the product pages for Savage Worlds, C&C, etc. They are all rulesets plus libraries and extensions.

[damned]

im not sure what you mean by that. im not seeing anything negative in there. as much as its great to have 13,649 spells already typed up for you - anyone can type up the dozen or so spells they actually need into their character sheet - the amazing mechanics and automation - now thats the real magic. 4e and 5e mechanics! awesome.

[ddavison]

im not sure what you mean by that. im not seeing anything negative in there. as much as its great to have 13,649 spells already typed up for you - anyone can type up the dozen or so spells they actually need into their character sheet - the amazing mechanics and automation - now thats the real magic. 4e and 5e mechanics! awesome.

Mechanics only is perceived as negative by people - based on comments from Steam users and Roll20 people. Since there are 30 or so rulesets available for FG, I'd prefer the mechanics and game support to be the defining characteristics and then when we talk about officially licensed or OGL compliant rulesets, we can add that those also support built-in data libraries.

[Mgrancey]

You get 8 or 9 basic modules with Fantasy Grounds, 4 for 3.5 which has content that is free from the OGL: 3.5 Basic Rules, 3.5 Magic Items, 3.5 Monsters, 3.5 Spells; as well as: PFRPG Basic Rules, PFRPG Bestiary, PFRPG Magic Items, PFRPG Spells, and maybe PFRPG Advanced Rules, not sure if that was original or something I downloaded from forums.

I would also point out that creating a character for all licenses is limited to owned rules set, so its misleading to state that in particular as it makes it sound like you can make characters for rules set that you don't own.

[damned]

Mechanics only is perceived as negative by people - based on comments from Steam users and Roll20 people. Since there are 30 or so rulesets available for FG, I'd prefer the mechanics and game support to be the defining characteristics and then when we talk about officially licensed or OGL compliant rulesets, we can add that those also support built-in data libraries.

It is your baby after all - you gotta pitch it the way you see best.

I think that 4e and 5e mechanics is one of the best selling points of FG and I dont use those rulesets. I think your big 3 (is that 4?) rulesets really showcase the power of your product and should be big feature points. I think the negative views expressed by some are that they feel misled and that they thought 4E was included. Make it simpler.

Pathfinder Ruleset/Mechanics/SRD Yes Yes Yes Yes
D&D 3.5E Ruleset/Mechanics/SRD Yes Yes Yes Yes
D&D 4E Ruleset/Mechanics Yes Yes Yes Yes
D&D 5E Ruleset/Mechanics Yes Yes Yes Yes
Numenera Ruleset/Mechanics Yes Yes Yes Yes
CoreRPG Ruleset/Mechanics Yes Yes Yes Yes

Commercial Ruleset/Mechanics/Libraries available in store
Castles & Crusades
Call of Cthulhu
RoleMaster
etc

Community Ruleset/Mechanics available on Wiki
Trail of Cthulhu
Star Wars: Edge of the Empire
FATE
etc

[Mask_of_winter]

I like the fact it explains the differences between licenses clearly. I'm not sure it's the perfect landing page though. Some people don't know what a VTT is. Some people wished their whole life there was a way to play RPGs online with their friends because they're stationed abroad, some moved away or some simply live in an area where they can't find local players. You've got to show them in one single page that you've made their dream come true. A short and sweet professional video featuring a DM narrating the beginning of an encounter, a player rolls a d20 (after making it spin) and scores a crit!, loud cheers from everybody at the table, that kinda thing, would be a nice landing spot underneath one paragraph explaining what a Fantasy Grounds is. But that's just me.

My $0.02

[ddavison]

I'll make an alternate version that pops the highlighted features and videos out and then has the feature list as a separate, condensed view. I'll post a link shortly (unless I get interrupted).

[phantomwhale]

Yeah - it's an interesting comparison chart (ugly though - sorry) but not a landing page.

The landing page is the 15 second elevator pitch for what Fantasy Grounds is. It should get people excited, with screengrabs hinting at the great features within.

The depth of the programme should come from other screens and/or application usage; I didn't "get" what FG was to me until I started using it, which took a small leap of faith. So bridging that gap is good too (the improved demo application goes some way towards that, I guess), but the landing page needs to start people on the journey.

[Griogre]

This page is a software feature page as other have noted. Some comments on it.

I'd suggest you combine the two headers into one, ie Fantasy Grounds License Comparison header and Feature, Free/Demo, Player Only, GM & Player, Ultimate column keys are combined with the drop shadow under the Feature, etc line.

I agree with SquareCat on the videos you need to so something else with them. I'd suggest you either span them across all columns if you think its actually important that people see the starting screen shot of the video(es). Or just make a thumbnail link to the left of the category name.

Your prospective customers are not going to know what a ruleset or libraries modules are. I'd personally try to make your text as generic as possible without misleading them. Assume they know nothing but want to know - that's why they landed there. You need to decide how you are going to capitalize you text in features - you are not consistent, a few are capitalized like phrases - most are like headlines. I'd go with headlines. Don't use abbreviations if at all possible since they "assume" knowledge. Use "active voice" in your feature text, not passive. You have a lot of space for text, use it. :)

Some specific suggestions and these are very YMMWV.

"Join game as a player" change to "Be a Player in a Game Master's Game."
"Create Characters" change to "Create a Character While Connected to a Game Master"
"Create Characters Offline" change to "Create a Character While Not Connected to a Game Master"
"Create Campaign" change to "Game Master Can Create an Unlimited Number of Campaigns"
"3D Dice rolling" change to "Make Game Related Rolls With Three-Dimensional Dice"
"Create and Use hotkeys" change to "Create and Use Custom Hotkeys For Common Tasks"

"Num Players hosted" is trying to convey multiple features at once, I'd split it into:
"Number of Players the Game Master Can Host" with the answers being: 1 Demo player only, None, Only Limited by Bandwidth*, Only Limited by Bandwidth*. Then put a new line in the feature text and put something like: *6+ Players with a typical campaign using standard DSL (amount can vary based on the size of images and data in the campaign).
Then go through and do a license type per line instead of trying to glob everything together. This is very important to new buyers so make sure its absolutely clear - and a table is prefect to show these relationships. IE
"Demo License Game Master" with the answer: 1 player only*, 1 player only*, 1 player only*, 1 player only*; and then put a newline in features with: *Campaign data and player information is not saved.
Do the same with "Player Only License Game Master", "GM and Player License Gamer Master" and "Ultimate License Game Master".

Sorry I've got to run, but prospective customers don't know what a library is. I would not advertise you can open the module if it exists. You need to advertise the information the library contains. IE Access Player Libraries s/b something like "Player Can Access Specific Game Information*" \n *when the game information has been licensed or has been made freely available. Do the same with the GM.

Tokens, you need to put the word map in there so they know they are used on a map.

Rulesets, you have to educate you customers. To them a ruleset is a customized character sheet, desktop theme, battle tracker and the ability to make annotated dice rolls. This is really important. Some of the confusion of your new Steam customers was due to them thinking game info was always included with rulesets. You need to educate them the libraries are "bonuses" and only available due to Smiteworks licensing or something like an OGL. Your license deals are a big deal, something that most of you competition can't match.

[ddavison]

Good feedback so far.

Here is a variant of the page as I start digesting the new feedback.
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/buyFG/indexnew2.xcp

[Nylanfs]

I like that much better.

[Mask_of_winter]

Yes, much better.

[damned]

show some love for castles&crusades!
the sound quality on the exporting your creations is pretty bad...
I watched it earlier today on G+ and went "urk"...

[Mgrancey]

Hehehehe. True that i haven't tried Castle and Crusades yet, but I agree that is much better than previous page. Problems is that I can't look at that without knowing what FG is capable so its hard for me to say whether that would be better or not for the uninitiated. BUT I am going to a gaming convention, I will show it them, experienced gamers but so far as I know none use any VTT of any sort, lucky bastards, and will get their opinion and comprehension (that took a couple of trys). You just want a summary or would you like their actual comments"?

[ddavison]

Hey, I did use Castles & Crusades for a few of my videos today. I thought it would be perfect to show the tables from the Castle Keeper's Guide there. My big problem is that I still haven't ever played a game of C&C. You'll have to invite me into a game some time so I can check it out. I did back the kickstarter so I could get all 3 of the core books in glorious full-color hardcover. I plan to sit down and read through them all together after I get all three. I spoke with Steve Chenault during set up this year at Gen Con. He said he would have hooked me up with everything for free -- but you have to support the folks that support you, after all.

As for the sound quality issues, was that related to breathing in the mic or just low/poor quality over all? I noticed some of that during one of the playbacks but I was hoping it wasn't too significant or frequent enough to cause a disruption. The export module video was the last one I did for the day and I may not have been been as diligent about avoiding that as I was in the earlier videos. Is it the same in the 3D dice rolling video?

[damned]

As for the sound quality issues, was that related to breathing in the mic or just low/poor quality over all? I noticed some of that during one of the playbacks but I was hoping it wasn't too significant or frequent enough to cause a disruption. The export module video was the last one I did for the day and I may not have been been as diligent about avoiding that as I was in the earlier videos. Is it the same in the 3D dice rolling video?

Static mostly. Quite a bit of it.

No time to watch the other videos just now!

[damned]

dice video sound quality is fine.
i think *maybe* you could have expanded on 2 things -
mixing dice /die 1d10+1d4
and stacking modifiers -2 injured, +1 flanking, etc and all the descriptions show in the chat window

perhaps instead of embedding video direct on page you could display a good looking graphic - but somewhat smaller - and you use a popup youtube player like this one:
https://lab.abhinayrathore.com/jquery_youtube/ click on demo
many other examples out there...

[hangarflying]

I like the second one.

I think it's important to have access to the videos. I don't have a problem with the embedded videos because they are right there to supplement the description that they are attached to.

[damned]

just to clarify - i dont mind the embedded videos but they make the page so much bigger... im only suggesting that when you click on it it plays in layer above the screen.

[OTG_Wraith]

I don't know why you are getting the static in the other videos, it could be a number of reasons, but there does seem to be some proportional static introduced by the actions you are taking on screen which might indicate the video capture device or software. However, the hum you're getting in the dice video is probably from background noise and setting your recording levels too high which then get amplified during post. Also, when I ripped the audio from the youtube video I noticed it was severely clipped.

Here's the original. (https://soundcloud.com/otg-wraith/fg-dice-demo-dalh)

Here's the first part of that same audio track with the hum removed, but of course that introduced a slight high-end resonance. (https://soundcloud.com/otg-wraith/fg-dice-demo-humremoved) Let it play, I used the long intro to compare a no signal baseline to the removed hum.

Shut off the computer fan, TV (even if it is muted), air conditioning, etc and then turn your source recording levels down a bit and then in post only amplify that signal to about -1 or -2 dB from peak. You'll get an unclipped sine wave as a start and then you can amplify it up to about +5 dB past peak without a noticeable loss of fidelity. Still sounds loud to a normal YouTube volume setting but doesn't introduce that low-end distortion or nearly as much clipping.

Here's how the above instructions should sound. (https://soundcloud.com/otg-wraith/fg-dice-demo-dalh-mindistortion-02)

[levinth]

I'm not sure I see this as a landing page yet... The second one is a definite improvement on the first though. :)

I've done a bit of copywriting before, although I'm very new to web design, but I think the principle of writing anything to do with advertising is to keep it short and positive. People are, sadly, lazy and the quicker you can convey to them what they need to know, the better. That includes text/ pictures/ links etc.

Bearing that in mind, where the roll 20 website gets it right is at the very top of the landing page (ignoring the menu/ wordpress bar etc) there are basically three things you see in the blue box. Just three. A very simple outline of what the software is and does, a video introducing it and a link to try it yourself. I know there are other links and information, but my eye is drawn to those three things, and really thats what I need to start with.

How that would apply to the landing page for FG is simple. I haven't got time to do a web page design right now, but I can describe what should be visible at the top of the page when you get there.

Where it says "try a demo now or choose a version below", you could put: "Play tabletop RPGs online" Or something similar. Maybe a tag line for the product that says in essence, "you can use this to play tabletop rpgs online". You get the gist. It should be instantly clear what the product is, currently it's a bit murky...

Then stick the trailor in somewhere. Left, right aligned, I don't know, probably doesn't matter! But I'm curious as to whether the trailor is finished? It seemed to end abruptly (although I really liked it otherwise!).

Then maybe at the other side a couple more lines explaining what is special about FG compared to other VTTs or more detail about what the product is, but without using too much terminology. I've used some of the text that was already there, but removed what should be written elsewhere:
"Fantasy Grounds replicates what you would traditionally do around a physical table, such as rolling dice, managing character sheets, campaign notes, sharing handouts and images with players and moving tokens or figures around on a map. "

Then finally, have a button shaped link (not a text based one as these are easy to mistake for highlighting) letting you download the demo.

In essence that is copying roll 20, I know, but they have got it spot on. It is easy enough to put a FG spin on the layout or the fonts etc and make it look exactly how you want, but the content and info that you first see is there.

I have a bit of time over the next few weeks and I'd be happy to do some copywriting for the site if the devs would find that useful?

P.s. sorry if it sounded very critical, it wasn't meant to...

[Griogre]

Looks much better, Doug. As someone else mentioned, I would split the current page up. For the actual landing page just do your videos and Text besides them. Then at the bottom you want three large buttons. LARGE buttons, think banner size across the page with very large text, stacked vertically.

Button one: "Explore Fantasy Ground's Complete List of Features" - link to a page that has just that feature list.

Button two: "Compare Fantasy Grounds Licenses" - link to a page that only compares all the different license types in a table. I'd pull all you license comparisons out of your feature list to here. Do a real thorough list with nothing combined, but don't put prices here.

Button three: "Buy Fantasy Grounds Now!" Don't **** around with a price list, just link them directly to the store or some place they can buy. I'd suggest a special store page that lists each license name and a summary lifted exactly from your license comparison page so there is absolutely no question which license is which.

At the bottom of each of these three pages you want a list of three large buttons horizontally across that link back to each of the other pages including the landing page which I'd call something like "Introduction to Fantasy Grounds". You want them to be able to flip back and forth easily from page to page.

One final thought, and once again all this stuff is YMMV, you landing page doesn't outright proclaim FG's greatest features: "Play Roleplaying Games Online With Your Friends." and "Fantasy Grounds Has an Established Community of Players and Game Masters From Around the World." To a lot of your new buyers, FG's biggest selling point is - 1) its a VTT with 2) a well established community.

[ddavison]

Thanks guys.

I'll need to re-record the exporting video when I get a quiet enough environment. Yesterday ended up working really well - and I'll have to look out for the humming noise before posting the final product. I'm guessing something with the capture may have messed up or possibly I accidentally yanked my mic plug out a little -- it happens. Thankfully that was a pretty short video and is relatively easy to replicate.

[grapper]

All the videos and information are great, but I think there is too much text for a landing page. Use images -- screen shots, short animations (maybe of a dice roll?) or other graphics. I would limit the text to just your bullet points and preferably have any text embedded in your images.

Also, not everyone runs their browsers full screen. (I multitask and tend to have multiple things running at the same time and jump over to the browser while I wait for other things to finish. I like to keep an eye on both at the same time.) I've attached a screenshot of what I saw when I loaded the example page.

7447

For example, take a look at The Sims 4 (https://www.thesims.com/) page. Now, they have huge $$ budget and it is a AAA title, but it is the sort of design that I think works.

Just my thoughts, for what they're worth.

[dulux-oz]

One thing I'll mention (if it hasn't already) is that the new page does NOT look AOK on a smart phone (Galaxy S4, to be precise) - the videos overlap the text and so you can't read things.

Just letting you know :)

[ddavison]

One thing I'll mention (if it hasn't already) is that the new page does NOT look AOK on a smart phone (Galaxy S4, to be precise) - the videos overlap the text and so you can't read things.

Just letting you know :)

I just fixed it.

I always start out trying to use div tags and css styles and then remember that things like that are so much easier to do with dynamic sized tables with css.

The home page now refers to the Take a Tour page.
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/buyFG/

[dulux-oz]

Looks good - I'd still like to see the comparison table have a pale yellow and pale blue colour for the Player and Player & GM Licence (or some colour difference, anyway) - having both in white tends to have the eye "bleed" one into the other.

[ddavison]

Not a problem. Is that better?

[dulux-oz]

Yeah, I think that looks better, don't you? - What does everyone else think?

[RosenMcStern]

Looks fine. But the color and style of the text (on Windows) does not match the general FG header. Could use a couple more CSS intervention.

[dulux-oz]

I'd change the "No grids, hex grids and square grids" to read "Hex grids, square grids or no grids" - on first reading it seems as if the maps can't have grids at all :)

[Nylanfs]

Number of players seems copied from Demo to GM column.

[dulux-oz]

Number of players seems copied from Demo to GM column.

No, that's right - number of free players is 1 (in Demo Mode).

Cheers

[VenomousFiligree]

I personally hate videos that start without me pressing play :(

Otherwise getting better each time :)

[Carthar]

I think it is looking more modern and much better.

As has been mentioned it needs to be split up a bit. People these days have limited attention span. So informative chunks are the way to go. Maybe break it into 3 tables.

Maybe group them as "story telling features" or "just like sitting at a table features", then "data management/campaign organization tools" and finish off with "built in automation" to speed up play IF you want to use it. Stick a link to the demo in between each chunk, so if that chunk sells them, they don't have to go looking for a link.

Just my 2 cents
Carth

[Nylanfs]

Oh missed the line above it. :-)

[Coanunn]

I know the Roll20 page was held up as an example but why did you go with a "matrix" of what comes with each license? If you take a look at https://roll20.net/, their main page not the one where you sign in or the "support roll20" page where they list prices it is a list with a lot of pretty pictures and border-less videos of what the software can do. Lots of smiling faces of users, bright shots of the clean interface, and logos for Features and products. What you don't see on the page I linked is anything that tells you "no" where most of the second column (first column of options) on the suggested Fantasy Grounds index tells the user No an awful lot. I'm not saying hide what it does or doesn't do, but I'd showcase all the yes on that page and then create a matrix on another page that highlights the tiers available. No videos necessary in the matrix and no matrix necessary with the videos or images.

Some people may not like the design but the Roll20 main page that I linked is far cleaner, far more modern and very attractive to a customer. First rule in sales, never say or accept no. Not to mention the fact that they have 5 separate and unique links to start using their software on the page.

[Blacky]

If you're looking for something more modern, you might want to look into things like https://publicdomainarchive.com/ It's clean, simple, but has a true design.

[ddavison]

What do people think about the trailer auto-play on the landing page?

I'm normally in agreement with VenomousFiligree about his dislike for auto-play videos, but I see that despite that, most commercial sites employ this sort of thing. The video in question is short (54 seconds) and only has music instead of talking. After being on the fence some by whether or not to make it auto-play in the beginning, I decided it would do more good for the people that are new to FG than it would harm by annoying people with an auto-play. Agree or disagree?

[Mask_of_winter]

What do people think about the trailer auto-play on the landing page?

I'm normally in agreement with VenomousFiligree about his dislike for auto-play videos, but I see that despite that, most commercial sites employ this sort of thing. The video in question is short (54 seconds) and only has music instead of talking. After being on the fence some by whether or not to make it auto-play in the beginning, I decided it would do more good for the people that are new to FG than it would harm by annoying people with an auto-play. Agree or disagree?

Agree.

[Blacky]

What do people think about the trailer auto-play on the landing page?
If muted, it's not the worst thing possible.

It definitely is if not muted.

[dulux-oz]

What do people think about the trailer auto-play on the landing page?

I'm normally in agreement with VenomousFiligree about his dislike for auto-play videos, but I see that despite that, most commercial sites employ this sort of thing. The video in question is short (54 seconds) and only has music instead of talking. After being on the fence some by whether or not to make it auto-play in the beginning, I decided it would do more good for the people that are new to FG than it would harm by annoying people with an auto-play. Agree or disagree?

Sorry, but Auto=Play is something that really, REALLY turns me off a product. :)

[Coanunn]

What do people think about the trailer auto-play on the landing page?

I'm normally in agreement with VenomousFiligree about his dislike for auto-play videos, but I see that despite that, most commercial sites employ this sort of thing. The video in question is short (54 seconds) and only has music instead of talking. After being on the fence some by whether or not to make it auto-play in the beginning, I decided it would do more good for the people that are new to FG than it would harm by annoying people with an auto-play. Agree or disagree?

As a web designer in the past unless expressly informed to do an auto-play my policy was to avoid it. The simple answer being you don't know where your user is when they view this, they could be surfing the web on their phone while they have a headset on talking to someone. That is just one example in the modern world of why requiring a touch/click for activation is better than auto-play. Not to mention auto-play means if the user is skimming the site before actually clicking on anything they may scroll past the video and then be forced to replay the video.

[ddavison]

I've disabled the autoplay.