Let's be honest about why people aren't coming to fantasy grounds [Archive]

idjester

September 11th, 2014, 00:15

I'm sure there were tons of people out there just like me who (in the last year or two) were looking for an online virtual table top and decided to investigate VTT to see what was out there and I'm sure they did exactly what I did and found what I like to call the big three (roll20, Fantasy Grounds, and d20pro). In fact I started doing a video series on youtube discussing the process I was using and the pro's and con's of each of this software so that others out there could find their answers without having to waste their time trying to investigate it themselves.

All of this information is from basically an outsider opinion but sometime it’s those on the outside that you should listen to the most. They are not altered by opinion, by bias, nor do they have a vested interest in any program. And as mentioned I have gone through this process of deciding exactly what program or programs I will use for my VTT which I am sure is the same thing many have done before me.

I should probably mention that I am currently DMing 2 fantasy grounds games and 2 roll20 games and have talked with all of my 20 or so players about these programs, their views, and their thoughts (to help continue my VTT investigation).

This isn’t going to be a rant and rave about the differences between roll20 and fantasy grounds, that’s not its purpose, but rather to say –hey you want to know what a person looking for a VTT is thinking when they look at fantasy grounds and then look at roll20 or any other VTT software. Look into the looking glass to find the answers before you look elsewhere.

So first off, my views are that there isn't any perfect VTT currently out there. Every VTT out there has some strengths and weaknesses and some of them do things better then others. If everyone out there had a say as to what a perfect VTT would look like it would be: FREE, able to play any incorporate all RPG game systems, easy to play and learn the program, able to get preloaded campaigns/scenarios as well as make your own campaign/scenarios quickly and easily. No software currently out there does this or even comes close. So as prospective DM's and Players we start looking to find something that comes as close to what we want.

The first thing we do when trying to find a VTT is go to their website. Right off the bat (when I was doing this) Fantasy Grounds website totally turned me off. The website is totally ancient looking, smallish text, links are small and don't really help you get around the website. Roll20 website has BIG beautiful pictures, a big button that says create free account, and they totally show and talk about all of their programs strengths and weaknesses.

Someone quickly mention to me the strength of fantasy grounds… "a user interface specifically designed to capture the spirit of pen and player games" – you answer. Great, that is on the website in size 6 font at the bottom of the page. Or you might answer… “you can download a demo to try it out.” Really… I answer… this is again a small button on the right side of the website that you barely notice. Compare this to roll20 4x4 inch button.

Right there, you probably lost 10 out of 100 people that are looking for a VTT. Whoever is doing your website or giving the developers ideas that this is a good idea for their program should be instantly fired. People don’t want to try and look for information they want it handed to them on a silver platter, with big bold pictures and videos, and something cool to look at while they are reading the information about what your program does.

The next process people are going to do is look at what they program does and the price. For me a price of 39.95 for a program is fine and I think most people out there wouldn’t mind paying a little money to get an awesome program but when you go and look at the features for fantasy ground you are literally greeted with --"a block of text.." no images, no screenshots, not a single thing that makes me say “wow, that’s pretty cool, look what I can do with this program. The features and interaction between fantasy grounds software and the game system is one of its greatest strengths and all you get to see is a block of text. So for most people out there looking for a VTT you spend 39.95 and all you in return is a block of text. Or I could spend nothing and get -- video and voice chat (with picture), your art + marketplace + web = art library bliss (with picture), a Jukebox (with picture), 3d dice (with picture), and more and more… And once again on the roll20 website there is a link to creating a free account with a box to join in their newsletter. Fantasy grounds website has none of that. So for anyone trying to compare VTT programs you have lost another 5-10 people.

The next thought someone might use it let’s go to youtube and look at these programs and see them in action (which is exactly what I did). If you do a search for fantasy ground in youtube you get links to videos that are mostly 2-4 years old. The only recent videos are mine and 1 other person running it is some foreign language. The actually fantasy grounds youtube page contains exactly 4 videos. Really… I am totally floored by this and anyone reading this should be as well. That’s right, this online, interactive software, that players use to play online with has a total of 4 videos on their youtube channel. If you go to the roll20 website you see developer’s online questions and answers which are recorded live, you actually have some information from them about what they are doing, how they are doing it and a timeline. My very first thought when seeing this is “do the developers really care about their program at all?” If they do they should be ashamed at this. Once again if I am looking for an online VTT you probably lost another 5-10 people looking.

I haven’t even covered the connection problems that fantasy grounds has, the totally worthless calendar, the 731.47 cost that people see for addons in steam, or the variation on different licenses that totally throw people away from your program. If you want to know why fantasy grounds has a much smaller userbase then look no farther then see why people are going elsewhere. When someone is looking for a VTT and comes to fantasy grounds they don’t see what is offers them because the website is trash, there isn’t any support from the developers, and people can find an alternative that is easily accessible

Personally I think this software has much potential but the business model of this software is totally wrong. Their cost should be minimal since they are not hosting servers for games. So exactly what does someone get for 40 dollars? A really nice program which doesn’t include everything you need. How can a software package say it comes preloaded with support for 4th edition D&D and not have that information installed within it? Token, modules, maps, and all of the other essentials are nonexistent, and the reason behind (from an outsiders prospective) is because the developers are busing not working within the program but rather trying to build stuff for you to purchase to add to the program. Which again I feel is the wrong business model and not what players are looking to do with their online VTT. If you want someone to purchase this program it should come complete, it turns people off when they see extras that need to be purchased.

If the developers need a steady flow of money coming in then they should be spending their time developing and designing the next version of the game which would come complete with all of the supported gaming systems not trying to nickel and dime your current customers. Heck, when it comes to promoting this software the developers and/or community is totally lacking. I have only had this software for a few weeks and have already posted some lengthy commentary videos on fantasy grounds, talked about it during my “big three VTT programs” video series, done a video series on how to add 4th edition module information into the program, and did a video on how to parse the 5th edition material into the program. Not to mention talk about and upload my current two campaign files that I am using fantasy grounds with. Obviously besides my campaign files this is all information that should be easily done by the developers and posted front page of the website…. Wouldn’t it be nice to see a new video front and center in the website saying “hey guys/gals fantasy grounds now supports 5th edition dungeon and dragons and he is how you go about adding that information into fantasy grounds…”

I have gotten more information out on the internet about fantasy grounds in the two weeks I have had it then the developer has done with it since the beginning and that is a dam shame for anyone reading this. When I posted my comments and thoughts a few weeks ago about lack of information, the problem with how things are setup with the website, and the lack of developer input, it was all taken as a rant (which maybe it was) but that rant was probably because of all of these issues and the lack of anyone actually seeing these issues. It seams (from an outsider) like I want this program to succeed more then the developer does. I do want fantasy ground to continue and we all know the software has much potential but it will never get to where it needs to be with the current setup and input. If I owned this program I would dam sure make it so that everything I had went into that program, I would have live streams each week, I would have video footage of the game in action (professionally done), I would show people what it can do, I would have videos showing people exactly how to use it, and would have a professional look and feel to everything about this program, and until that happens you will just continue to lose people to other online software.

Mask_of_winter

September 11th, 2014, 00:52

Thanks for your insight on this! Good points. And I'm sure Doug is listening.

Nylanfs

September 11th, 2014, 01:23

I agree most of these are really good suggestions. But you also have to realize that this program launched really before YouTube really gained the popularity it has today. And the original developers really weren't public relation guys.

damned

September 11th, 2014, 02:02

ddavison

September 11th, 2014, 02:11

idjester, thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts on how Fantasy Grounds could do a better job engaging you and other VTT customers. You have a lot of very good points and a few that I disagree with, but I still respect.

The comment about people not coming to Fantasy Grounds:
We don't count our free users or people who download the demo and never return like other VTTs do and we don't promulgate these numbers around to show how large we are. We do, however, continue to add more users every year and we have more customers who chose to purchase our license than any other VTT has who purchased licenses or subscriptions. We could have made part of our product free or given the illusion of a free product but we have made a decision not to do that. We are not shrinking and are in fact growing. We would love to have 600K actual users of our product. There's a bit of a marketing ploy there, however, when 300K of them have spent less than 1 hr with the product.

The comment about the cost of DLC:
We do have lots of DLC from licensed publishers and from other publishers and professionals in the RPG industry. We believe in supporting these publishers through official licenses whenever possible and supporting the people who make the games that we all love to play. Many of our users agree with us in this regard and we have contracted with a number of them over the years to bring more conversions to the market for purchase. The end result is more options for our GMs who choose to purchase an add-on instead of building it on their own. We also support people who want to build their own solutions with an open delivery of every script we build. We are interested in making this process even easier and are working behind the scenes on this when possible. We realize that scares some (possibly many people) away when they see the total amount of all DLC. I'd be interested in approaches you have to solve this which a) gives our users options for playing official versions of the games they love and b) does not scare off potential customers. If you look at comments from D20Pro developers and customers, they often get dinged for not having enough content. I know how much work goes into converting over many of these DLC items and I truly believe that charging the same price as the PDF is absolutely fair to the customer, to the publisher of the original content (via royalties) and to the developer of the conversion (via commissions.)

The perceived lack of videos:
We have a host of videos that we link to from our wiki (formerly the downloads page) that showcase various features. We've also contracted with a professional marketing company to produce new videos on a regular basis showcasing a short segment of functionality for each. We haven't seen a direct impact of these yet, but our social presence has significantly picked up lately and is something we are looking to expand. Videos and Twitch.tv and other items are in our plans for the near future or currently being worked on. Please feel to send along additional suggestions. We are stronger in the technology side than in the marketing side but I think we are learning and improving lately. I'm always open to suggestions.

Videos do take a long time to put together and I have put together a few; however, this pulls time away from other important tasks. I doubt that I'll be able to do them all myself since it means we won't be keeping the new products rolling out. In the past, we've held competitions for videos on YouTube and I think that worked out fairly well at the time.

The website comments:
Thanks for your criticisms and suggestions. We are in agreement with many of these -- although I personally find the Roll20 website to be horrid. It may be a generational thing. Some people hate reddit and it is still very popular. A lot depends on what you are used to. I do think the web page has an antiquated look to it. It's also hard to completely do away with because it has hooks into so many things and was custom built. Even simple changes can be a pain on it.

What sort of things would you want to see on the front page?

Here is a landing page we have from online advertisements we run that was built with input from a marketing specialist. We could probably add in some more images to make it prettier or hire a graphic designer to do a nice layout. What would you suggest?
Link: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/buyFG/

Comment about what you get for the $39 license
Where I disagree with you is mostly in your statement that the $40 version does not come with anything. It provides multiple rulesets, data modules for 3.5E and PFRPG games, a map library module with a handful of battle maps and several hundred tokens that if purchased separately would have made up a good portion of that cost. The tokens alone would have required an investment of $15 on the Game Master's Kickstarter. The other items are the result of thousands of hours of coding and design. That is absolutely where we have focused our attention.

We have a few other things we are not ready or able to disclose yet, but we are working on some big items that will further help distinguish us in the marketplace. The fact that you wrote a very long forum post on the subject indicates that you have strong feelings for it and I take that to mean that you would welcome our growth if we are able to address some of the items you have raised. I think you will find that we are generally very open and willing to take feedback from our community and we will take action where we can. We may never hit every item you addressed to your full satisfaction, but we do listen.

-Doug

idjester

September 11th, 2014, 06:08

First of all thanks everyone for your comments, I assure you that my comments (good or bad) are only from a perspective of someone looking it from the outside and I have only been in this community for a very short period of time. I don't want anyone to get the impression that I am against fantasy grounds (in fact its the opposite as I really like it) but rather comparing this program to other VTT out on the market currently. Although I am a new user I do feel as though I have done my homework in comparing these programs and basically outlined some of these findings in my previous post.

While working through this process many things have come up and many discussions have taken place between myself and a lot of my current players and those outcomes basically mirror my basic findings. Not only that but the current fantasy ground campaigns that I run also highlight some of these issues as well. Lack of understanding the program, how to adjust things within the program, and how the program operate is a major concern. Even indy programs that are being released every day come with some kind of build in tutorial. I realize that probably isn't going to happen but why not create some easy to follow videos. Screenshots, videos, and pictures are your friends, its the digital age after all.

Of my pole of players not currently in fantasy grounds only 1 of them couldn't afford the 39.95 asking price. 7 of them could afford it but were not interested in it because of: A) to hard to understand how to use it B) not wanting to invest in something so expensive (their assumption of total cost) C) lack of player base and finding a game, and 2 of them were former fantasy ground users and switched because: A) connection issues and B) lack of available games. As mentioned this is mirrored in my current fantasy grounds campaigns because a brand new player that I just invited to the game said to me in the forums "Thanks, it's been downright difficult to find a game. Hope your campaign goes well!" If we spend a moment to look at the steam forums we can see that there has been a total of 13 posts since Aug 4th and 6 of those posts have 0 replies, so almost exactly half of them have gotten no response.

While the asking price for the software wasn't a major concern for players its total cost was. Their assumption of cost and what they perceived as a total cost were not at the 40 dollar mark but rather based upon cost of "total products" to purchase. As we all know "free" really isn't free (and too be fair that is totally discussed in my video series) when talking about roll20. If no one pays for the subscriptions or upgrades then that software will die. Just like fantasy grounds other VTT need some income to support it and to have it continue, if this doesn't happen then it won't be supported, it won't have new features added, and the players base will wither away. But fantasy grounds is competing against something that is called "free" and therefore needs to be able to show its advantages even through there is a cost. Almost everyone is going to choose "free" over "buying something" when they assume the items are the same. It is without a doubt fantasy grounds job to show players (quickly and easily) that they are not the same thing, they are different and show the reasons why. Again you need to focus on your programs strengths and what it does that other programs don't.

When I discussed this with one of my current roll20 groups who had watched some of the fantasy ground videos that I had uploaded (each group is watching and seeing what the other groups are doing) they were very impressed with fantasy grounds. We discussed switching from roll20 to fantasy grounds because one of the players said that he could afford the 10 a month for an ultimate license. But then the questions came about: could he purchase it and transfer the license to me, would he have to host the game if he was the license holder, ect.. all of this information we couldn't find easily on the website and just gave up on that idea. And to be honest who would want to spend all that time trying to figure it out. This again should be spelled out in plain English somewhere easily for players to look at.

Speaking of full disclosure, I haven't even told them about the fact that I can't get fantasy grounds to allowing connection through my home router. I have setup port forwarding on my the cable modem and internal router and have gotten no results. So I have just connected my computer directly into the cable modem and bypassed my internal router all together. I have followed the directions, took every hint for the website and forums, and still no luck. One of my current players in roll20 had mentioned to me that "when he used fantasy ground" he had to use some external program to help connect. No one wants a software package that is hard to connect too and doesn't work, that just give people a feeling that is old and not updated. This is the new century, not the mid 90's were we had to configure our modems to dial out to our internet providers to get internet connection. Connections should be quick and easy, not a hassle or something you have to use an external program to use just to get connected.

People want easy to use, that is a given. I see it every day because I teach at a high school and deal with a hundred kids and 10 staff and let's face it fantasy grounds is not easy to use. In my current campaign games there are many new users and you can tell them in my video because they have no idea what they are doing. Notice I said fantasy grounds is not easy to use "instead of" fantasy grounds is hard to understand. Most people, even new user can understand fantasy grounds if they just play with it and try to click on different things but the fact that new players coming to the game have no idea what they are doing is an issue for fantasy grounds as a whole. That simple means that there isn't a way for these new players to easily get access to something to show them how to play and how to use fantasy grounds. If you know that your program is more complex then other programs out there then you have to be able to provide support to those new players or they will get frustrated. There are many ways to do this which I have mentioned throughout my posts.

Fantasy grounds has some very important benefits for the rpg player and that should be used as an advantage to get more players to come and play with it. If someone is going to spend 40 bucks on a game they want to be able to fully understand how to use it and what it can do for them but if they can't see these features in action or even know they are available they won't spend the money on the program. Fantasy grounds has many advantages over other software: it can auto calculate a hit against an enemy, it can assign damage and effects, auto distribute loot, track xp, and many other features that other programs can't or won't offer. It interacts with the players, and is part of the game, not just an interface but rather its an interactive environment. These strengths should be at the forefront when introducing players to why they would want to spend 40 bucks on this program. Why not have a short video (or even a flash video) of someone dropping a dice on an enemies head and watching the program calculate a hit and assigned damage. At the end of the video a message -- try that will your other online virtual tabletop programs and see what happens... Blam.. all of a sudden a new person is going to say to themselves... hum... really I can do that, wow that is pretty cool.

There is so many things that can be done to get someone to see that 40 bucks is spent on a program that does things other programs can't do and the reason for all of my posts is that there is very little if anything being done to have new players get that "wow, that's pretty cool" feeling when they come across fantasy grounds. A block of text in little words isn't doing it that is for sure. Let's be totally honest, most people are not going to go to the depths that I went to try and find out about fantasy grounds, find out what it can do, watch whatever videos they can find.. It is NOT their job to find out about your program (like I did) it is YOUR job to convince them that you can help them, that you have something that other software doesn't, and that they have found the right program for their needs. Unless you show them exactly what the program can do, exactly what your program offers, they will look elsewhere...

damned

September 11th, 2014, 06:24

a couple of quick answers to your questions -

is my license transferable to another user? no. almost no software supports that.
no answers to 6/13 posts on Steam forums? i check the steam forums daily and there is no unanswered posts... unless you are talking about something other than the official forum: https://steamcommunity.com/app/252690/discussions/
if smiteworks dies fantasy grounds dies with it? it wont get the same updates thats for sure - but it doesnt need smiteworks to be online for it to work whereas if the other products are offline - you are totally offline
connection issues? some people and some setups do prove difficult. there is no quick fix for this other than running an online service... the GMs machine is the server.

we all learn from each other and there are some good points in your posts and they are being heard.

idjester

September 11th, 2014, 07:26

First off I don't have questions... only statements. Did you even see a single question make in my post...

I wasn't asking about transferring a license but rather having one person buying the license and giving it to another (like a gift)..

You are obviously not checking the "looking for a game" posts on the steam forums in fantasy grounds... not sure why you won't look there since I was specifically talking about how hard it was to find a game.

Connection issues nowadays is totally unacceptable and if the only fix is running an online service that is terrible customer support. That should be patched and fixed and the programmers should be ashamed for allowing this to continue. No other program would be allowed to have an outcome like that. Totally unacceptable.

STEAM FORUM LOOKING FOR A GAME

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PINNED: You are in the Looking for Group section. See the other sub forums for other options.
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Yggdrasill - Offerings to the Great Winter (Fri, 8pm UK time)
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LF> Pathfinder Group...
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damned
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DM starting 4E DND Long Running Campaign Monday Nights 8-11 PM EST
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2 Aug 3 @ 11:22am
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Obscure Fragments

dulux-oz

September 11th, 2014, 11:10

While working through this process many things have come up and many discussions have taken place between myself and a lot of my current players and those outcomes basically mirror my basic findings. Not only that but the current fantasy ground campaigns that I run also highlight some of these issues as well. Lack of understanding the program, how to adjust things within the program, and how the program operate is a major concern. Even indy programs that are being released every day come with some kind of build in tutorial. I realize that probably isn't going to happen but why not create some easy to follow videos. Screenshots, videos, and pictures are your friends, its the digital age after all.

Quick question: Have you actually seen any of the Tutorial Videos available on the Wiki (or from my Sig, for that matter)?

ddavison

September 11th, 2014, 14:43

The videos a user wants to see first probably depends on where they are coming from and what they want out of the software when they first arrive. A player's need will be different from a GM and often times will depend on the game system of choice. We have 74 videos and tutorials on our videos wiki page: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/wiki/index.php?title=Videos and those are categorized as best as possible.

Dropping the dice directly on an enemy and having it tell you if it hits or misses is covered in the Pathfinder combat example video. Someone who wants to run the community created ruleset for Gurps probably won't care about that feature being in Pathfinder or the D&D rulesets. For instance, we mention in the list of features about the data support for D&D 3.5 and PFRPG and then you pointed out that you felt that was misleading since the same support wasn't provided for 4E.

Some of these videos are 2 years old; however, they shouldn't be considered expired. Fantasy Grounds has been around since 2004 and is very mature. We rarely remove functionality and instead continue to add new features. The software has supported features years ago that are still being developed and planned by other VTTs.

JohnD

September 11th, 2014, 15:02

People complaining about connection issues need to look at their computer/network set up not Fantasy Grounds.

idjester

September 11th, 2014, 15:08

Quick question: Have you actually seen any of the Tutorial Videos available on the Wiki (or from my Sig, for that matter)?

Actually yes I have watched some of your videos and they are a great resource for the beginner to understand the basics.

The problem is that the support that is generated for this program doesn't fullfill its needs. I use fantasy grounds for 4th edition dnd and 5th edition dnd, not 3.5 or pathfinder. If we look at the 4th edition videos there is a total of 3 of them that cover campaign management, hosting games, and a quick player start video. These vidoes do not support the 4th edition currently build into the program. How to import the DDI builder information, how to adjust and add powers, for god sake for something as simple as trying to add a weapon to your powers. While the basics of covering of the layout of the program and the basics of how to use the program is covered most of the other things that are essential to using the program are not covered.

And as you know, for 5th edition there is a total of 0 videos in the wiki.. For a program that says it covers 5th edition they have shown 0 support for it. No videos, no data, no starter campaign files like 4th editin and 3.5 edition. All that is in the program for 5th edition is a character sheet and a new interface.

Again, not to harp on it but when a new user gets this program and installs it for the first time expecting it to be able to do something for 4th or 5th edition DND they are greeted with NO 4th edition rules, information, classes, races, monsters, feats, powers or anything of the sort. The exact same thing is true for 5th edition.

When the program says "Fantasy Grounds comes pre-loaded with Rulesets supporting compatible play for Dungeons & Dragons (R) 3.5, Dungeons & Dragons (R) 4E and the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game (R)." what they are really saying is that you get very little built into the program other than the fact that it can reconize an attack and damage within that rule set. It is up to you to get that information into the program so you can actually use it.... if that fact wasn't bad enough there is NO support by the developer to actually be able to do that.

You either support the rule set or you don't and if you do support it then you should actually add something to the program other then basic attack and damage for that rule set.

idjester

September 11th, 2014, 15:10

People complaining about connection issues need to look at their computer/network set up not Fantasy Grounds.

Really dude, that's your reply. I have 310 steam games and probably at least another 40 not on steam... you know how many of those program I have trouble with? One - fantasy grounds. Don't tell me that is my setup, that is my fault.. the program should be coded right so that isn't an issue.

JohnD

September 11th, 2014, 15:35

idjester there are extra hoops someone needs to jump through when someone wants to host a game. 350 games means nothing if they aren't ones where you host a server (essentially) with them. Some/many of those may not be based on as old a backend setup as FG is so they may be more efficient. I went through this with NWN and NWN2 before FG as well. One thing to connect to someone else than it is to have people connecting to you. And I didn't say it was "your fault", merely that you need to look at your system.

A while back I had to switch out my modem with my ISP and they gave me a new model which also can act as a router. So... go to host a FG game and connections failed, yet my router set up etc... nothing changed and it worked before. Turns out the new modem was blocking the port in question by default and I just needed to contact tech support to find out how to open it. Perfect example of one of the instances where I had to "look at my set up".

Most of your other suggestions are valid I think. Some of them break down into the person caring to do a bit of research before making a decision - like with most purchases I think. Most of what you list are the things I went through when deciding between FG and whatever the other choice was at the time.

Your comments about 4th and 5th edition content show a lack of research on your side I think. Neither are my rule set of choice, but I know there are reasons why there is no directly available content. five minutes of searching would do it (not FG's doing if the rights holder won't agree to license a product FYI).

But I will bow out of this discussion. For your initial caveat about just wanting to provide feedback/discussion not rant/complain, I'm getting a decidedly different vibe now that long standing community members are interacting with your observations.

Edit to add: if we're being honest about why people choose something other than FG, then we have to say that it is because most people prefer to get things for free in life, instead of paying for them without assigning value to someone else's hard work.

ddavison

September 11th, 2014, 16:19

And as you know, for 5th edition there is a total of 0 videos in the wiki.. For a program that says it covers 5th edition they have shown 0 support for it. No videos, no data, no starter campaign files like 4th editin and 3.5 edition. All that is in the program for 5th edition is a character sheet and a new interface.

Again, not to harp on it but when a new user gets this program and installs it for the first time expecting it to be able to do something for 4th or 5th edition DND they are greeted with NO 4th edition rules, information, classes, races, monsters, feats, powers or anything of the sort. The exact same thing is true for 5th edition.

There are reasons why there have been no videos for 5E that will make sense later.

We were never able to secure a license for 4E data and are not able to legally include *any* data for the system since there is not OGL material for D&D 4E. 5E is in the same state for the moment. Anyone who has supplied data for either of these two systems has received a cease & desist letter from Hasbro or Wizards of the Coast and will never be likely to secure a license with them in the future. We would love to provide this data, but it has to be done the right way or not at all.

For 4E, there are 6 videos in total. The three you mentioned, one for importing characters from DDI and two examples of play. Adding powers and attacks is also covered in the Wiki documentation for that ruleset. Specifically, you'll want to refer players to the wiki page for the 4E character sheet.
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/wiki/index.php/4E_Character_Sheet

We have been discussing this internally, and my proposal has been to include this same information directly within the program as a new "Help" tab. Would that be more useful to your players?

Moon Wizard

September 11th, 2014, 18:13

idjester,

Doug and I are regularly on the boards to respond to our users, review ongoing discussions and to keep up with what our user base is talking about.

I think you did a great job of highlighting some of the challenges that we are looking at for FG: Older website, Perceived value vs. free, Game management outside play, Game connectivity and User training. Doug and I are aware of all of these challenges, and we are usually chipping away in the background at each of them.

In fact, I have been visiting the boards a little less over the last week, since I have started the initial push for migration to a Unity platform. Our first goal is to get FG running on Unity as is, but it will also give us a richer platform to use for many features we would like to add that are difficult to do with the current platform.

Regards,
JPG

Blacky

September 12th, 2014, 01:58

Doug and I are regularly on the boards to respond to our users, review ongoing discussions and to keep up with what our user base is talking about.
I can attest to that, as most users here. For a company that small, with no subscriptions, the customer service level is very good. Yes things do slip through the cracks, sometimes annoyingly so when you really like Fantasy Grounds; but even if it isn't in the product per se the customer service, help, answers and so are one of the best feature of FG, one of its core strength (when you can read&write English anyway, and are motivated enough to sift through the forums).

Blacky

September 12th, 2014, 02:17

All of this information is from basically an outsider opinion but sometime it’s those on the outside that you should listen to the most. They are not altered by opinion, by bias, nor do they have a vested interest in any program.
Emphasis mine.

Without having read the follow up yet, I strongly second that. There's a French saying I can't think of in English, that roughly goes “head so far in the handlebar” meaning hen one work on a project so much, or around it, you sometime needs to take a step back to assess it, and well most people (myself first among them) often can't.

Having external opinion is always good, even if it is discarded for some reason or the other later. It can pinpoint issues regulars have trouble expressing correctly. Thinking on it always helps.

The first thing we do when trying to find a VTT is go to their website. Right off the bat (when I was doing this) Fantasy Grounds website totally turned me off. The website is totally ancient looking, smallish text, links are small and don't really help you get around the website. Roll20 website has BIG beautiful pictures, a big button that says create free account, and they totally show and talk about all of their programs strengths and weaknesses.
Mostly agreed. It's somewhat light and fast, that's better than being cumbersome and slow, but it's not sexy, not appealing, and more important it's a mess to navigate. To take one example, we see here quite regularly people asking pertinent questions about the demo version (what it can and can't do) that aren't answered by the download page.

Using the website on a mobile is also a challenge.

Their cost should be minimal since they are not hosting servers for games. So exactly what does someone get for 40 dollars? A really nice program which doesn’t include everything you need. How can a software package say it comes preloaded with support for 4th edition D&D and not have that information installed within it? Token, modules, maps, and all of the other essentials are nonexistent, and the reason behind (from an outsiders prospective) is because the developers are busing not working within the program but rather trying to build stuff for you to purchase to add to the program. Which again I feel is the wrong business model and not what players are looking to do with their online VTT. If you want someone to purchase this program it should come complete, it turns people off when they see extras that need to be purchased.
Disagree with all of that of course, but I get that some newcomers do feel this way.

As for the original question, to be fair I think the main answer is: because there's busy playing “modern rpg like Diablo 3 or Skyrim maybe”. Meaning of course, pen&paper true rpg are a niche. If you're talking about pen&paper players, than the answer is: they don't know what remote rpging and VTT are, they don't know they can do that and how good it is.

As for the people who actually played a decent VTT game at least once, or want to do it, yes Fantasy Grounds has an extremely steep learning curve and it never cease to be steep. Buying it for the first time ain't easy (as you said), using it for the first time ain't, playing with it ain't, running a game with it ain't, customizing it ain't neither, and so on. Nothing is easy with it unless you master some level of it, then it's ok (below average) using it from a modern software point of view but it's (for some people at least, myself included) superior to old irl table pen&paper.

Blacky

September 12th, 2014, 02:41

Here is a landing page we have from online advertisements we run that was built with input from a marketing specialist. We could probably add in some more images to make it prettier or hire a graphic designer to do a nice layout. What would you suggest?
Link: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/buyFG/
I do hope you didn't pay this “marketing specialist” anything :ogre:

Going into details is quite a job; and has being partially done already. But I would suggest simpler things, more to the point. For a landing page, that's a lot of text that doesn't explain a lot, I would think most people going there don't bother reading it to the end.

I would also suggest being honest. Some of the things in these pages are patently plainly false. SmiteWorks doesn't support 38+ rulesets at all. Some of these haven't being touched in years (and weren't that good in the first place), 3.0 broke some key features for some. “Access GM specific library modules for monster stats, rules, etc. in most rulesets” is simply false. “Create characters locally to take with you into a game session (most rulesets)”, well I didn't take a survey of each but I'm pretty sure that's not right. Etc. And I'm not even counting the misleading things, the main ones being almost all praises and videos cover D&Dish games which are mostly supported, but most (close to almost all) ruleset don't have anything close to this level of features. Including a lot of paying ones, from what I gather on the forums.

So I'm not naive enough to say that being honest always pay, that the good guys always win. I understand advertising, but for the example I gave beside being bad marketing where far over the liable frontier here. And of course some things get straighten out a few pages away, or in the forums; I'm not saying you run dishonestly your business from what I gather around quite the opposite. But as any page, especially a landing page, it's horrible ;)

To write something more creative, I suggested a few weeks backs several short “whaou effect” videos targeted mainly to IRL pen&paper GMs. I would add to that video that aren't screencast par se, more animated images. A good animated schema, or screenshots with overlays explaining and showing things, can be quite useful. I get that these aren't free, far from it (especially if you're going after non English speaking market, where videos will need to be localized and maybe dubbed or re-done), but a few well done might help a lot. Maybe even one for basics with CoreRPG, to alleviate the (not totally unjustified) concern of “I don't play D&D, I'll be ignored and left with the 20th of a full product”.

Also, be careful on how to market FG. To sell it, you'll want to push the outlandish features of the D&Dish rulesets. But then people like me who currently don't play D&D will feel they don't get a full product for their games. But if you market FG as a VTT basis, with no feature outside CoreRPG shown to newcomers, then everything better than that is either cherry on the top or worth paying for. It's a choice.

spoofer

September 12th, 2014, 06:03

People complaining about connection issues need to look at their computer/network set up not Fantasy Grounds.

I simply have to add my voice to appeal for better connectivity. Three different people in my group have tried to host a game with a direct link. We all failed. Why? Because none of us have the skills required to even begin to "look at our network", and on top of that, all of us are dealing with computer environments for which we are not native speakers. For example, my modem, router, etc., and all support are in Japanese.

Whenever I use different software for gaming, it just works. VASSAL is a case in point. Whenever I use FGII, we hope and pray that Hamachi is going to behave for us. Some days we come very close to throwing in the towel. However, so far we have always come back to FG because of functionality, community, etc. I fantasize of a day when connectivity issues are behind us.

K.

dulux-oz

September 12th, 2014, 07:22

Let's just make sure that everyone is talking about the same thing re: connectivity.

When we are talking about playing an online game (say, World Of Warcraft) we are connecting to the World Of Warcraft computers at Blizzard. The WoW computers are acting as servers (they are serving up the details to us). We (ie our computers) are connecting to the server as clients. This concept is known as Client/Server. There are many, many other examples of Client/Server relationships on the Internet (your Bank for Internet Banking, your Web Browser (the client) connecting to a Web Server, etc, etc, etc).

The fundamental nature and design of the Internet means that a Server (any server) needs to be able to be found and contacted - and this is done by both having a well-known or publicised unique IP Address Number and Port Number. Because humans aren't good at remembering numbers, there are other servers and services out there that translate IP Address and Port Numbers into words and phrases that humans can understand and remember (eg www.fantasygrounds.com).

Those companies and organisations that run servers make up a very small percentage of the Internet using public - most people don't run a server of any kind and simply use the various Client/Server relationships as clients. When connecting to a server as a client it is the client that does the initial connection - which means for most of us it is an outgoing connecting from us, through our routers/modems/whatever, through the Internet to the server's associated router/modem/whatever and finally to the server.

Because of this, the vast majority of home routers/modems/whatever are designed to allow outbound connects without too much trouble, but really restrict inbound connections to only those that are associated with an existing outbound connection.

Commercial-grade routers, on the other-hand, are set up (manually) so as to allow inbound connections quite easily - and those of us with the necessary skills and experience in doing this make quite a decent living - but I digress. :)

ISP often restrict home-based connections as well, but have different settings for commercial-grad access.

OK, so, if we all understand the above, let's talk why running FG as the GM (the host) can be a PITA re: connectivity some times.

The GM's copy of FG is running as a server and the players' copies are running as clients - and this means that all of the set-up required to run a server (any server) falls on the GM's head - essentially, the GM must set up their router/modem/whatever to accept inbound connections. This is not something that the server software (FG, a Web Server, or any other server) can do - it relies on the set-up of the accompanying router/modem/whatever.

Now, there are a number of workarounds - Hamachi, other VPNs, etc, etc, including the possibility of doing some (very) fancy coding to run a server and have everyone (GM and Players) connect as a clients - but there is an expensive expense to doing this and it still won't solve everyone's connection problems - what happens if the server is down - no-one can play. My opinion is that the connectivity model that SW has chosen provides the best set of compromises available - is it perfect? No, but for most people and most situations it works very well.

So let me state it again:

Connection Issues are related to the Fundamental nature of how the Internet is designed, not how any one individual piece of software (FG or otherwise) is constructed.

Now, there is tonnes of help in getting the GM's router/modem/whatever set-up correctly: here on the forums, in Tutorial Videos, on websites such as PortForward.com, etc, etc, etc, but sometimes (thankfully rarely) it can't be done, because of the GM's ISP, the fact that they are using a Hotel's Internet Connection, their router/modem/whatever can't be accessed to do the set-up, or a variety of other reasons - and in these cases we can usually get things working via one of the workarounds.

So, if you're having connectivity problems, ask for help - I know for a fact that damned and Trenloe, not to mention Doug and Moon, have helped a great many people.

But don't blame the software or the developers for not being able to fix something that is outside their control - to use an analogy: "Don't blame the screw if you are trying to insert it with a hammer."

Just mu $0.02 worth.

Any questions feel free to ask.

Cheers

Blacky

September 12th, 2014, 08:16

Connection Issues are related to the Fundamental nature of how the Internet is designed, not how any one individual piece of software (FG or otherwise) is constructed.
True in theory. In practice, most big softwares don't ask for anything router related. Try Steam, try Skype, try Teamspeak, try to host a Left4Dead game, and so on. For several years now, it just works (minus a quick OK mouse click to allow it goes through firewall). Frankly I don't know how they do it, apart from UPnP. In FGNext it might be worth investigating this, to see if it's possible to help people who use computer tools without reading documentation.

Zeus

September 12th, 2014, 09:22

True in theory. In practice, most big softwares don't ask for anything router related. Try Steam, try Skype, try Teamspeak, try to host a Left4Dead game, and so on. For several years now, it just works (minus a quick OK mouse click to allow it goes through firewall). Frankly I don't know how they do it, apart from UPnP. In FGNext it might be worth investigating this, to see if it's possible to help people who use computer tools without reading documentation.

What your referring to I believe is an approach to client/server networking called NAT Punch-through. Without getting into a deep technical explanation, NAT Punch-through enables a group of clients to connect to a host server without the need for the host to manually open local firewall ports. It effectively uses a 'server in the middle' approach - a publicly accessible (non-NATted) 'master' server that is used to initiate connections. Clients and hosts all connect to the master server, hosts register the game or service with the master server, once registered, connected clients can browse these game instances/services by way of a 'lobby'. Once a game/service is selected, the master server facilitates the opening of required host ports and relays the client connection to the host. NAT Punch-through has some obvious advantages but it is not a cure-all to the problems that can be associated with IP routing, security and client/server networking, it also requires dedicated server infrastructure to be provided to act as the publicly accessible 'master server(s)'.

Having said that we are looking at the networking stack and the means to improving the FG connectivity experience as part of the development thats currently underway for the next major release of the software.

dulux-oz

September 12th, 2014, 09:31

What your referring to I believe is an approach to client/server networking called NAT Punch-through. Without getting into a deep technical explanation, NAT Punch-through enables a group of clients to connect to a host server without the need for the host to manually open local firewall ports. It effectively uses a 'server in the middle' approach - a publicly accessible (non-NATted) 'master' server that is used to initiate connections.

Which is pretty much what I referred to when I said:

... including the possibility of doing some (very) fancy coding to run a server and have everyone (GM and Players) connect as a clients ...

And what this means is that SW is going to have to run the "master servers" - and if they're down, then no-one plays. (Thanks Zeus for the clarification)

Cheers

Zeus

September 12th, 2014, 13:27

Which is pretty much what I referred to when I said:
And what this means is that SW is going to have to run the "master servers" - and if they're down, then no-one plays. (Thanks Zeus for the clarification)

Cheers

Yes you are correct, if a NAT Punch-through approach were employed then it would require that Smiteworks host one or more master servers. Assuming the master server infrastructure is up and accessible, the master server/facilitator software processes can be remotely started when a client/host connects (if the processes are not already running). Hosting multiple master servers in different locales/geo would also be required to ensure i) availability of services and ii) performance of service, regardless of where clients/hosts connect from.

As I said its not a cure-all but one of several approaches thats being evaluated and considered.

damned

September 12th, 2014, 13:29

you definitely need more than 1 server if you go with that approach.

darrenan

September 12th, 2014, 19:15

True in theory. In practice, most big softwares don't ask for anything router related. Try Steam, try Skype, try Teamspeak, try to host a Left4Dead game, and so on. For several years now, it just works (minus a quick OK mouse click to allow it goes through firewall). Frankly I don't know how they do it, apart from UPnP. In FGNext it might be worth investigating this, to see if it's possible to help people who use computer tools without reading documentation.

All of those examples you cited are cases where that company/service runs their own servers. As stated before, the trade off is having dedicated servers (extra cost and support for SW, and possible outages if they go down) vs. not (difficulty hosting your own server and exposing it's connection to the internet, low/no cost to SW).

A compromise would be to include a 'proxy' feature in the FG software bundle. Those of us who know how to get through their routers and so forth could volunteer to run such a proxy, which would act as the go-between between GM hosts and player clients. Proxies could exist in their own P2P network so if one goes down, the hosts and clients could find another behind the scenes. The proxies would only be used to pass messages between hosts and clients, not be hosts themselves, so the application logic would be simpler (still not simple). The P2P part would probably be the most difficult part i.e. advertising and discovering peer proxies. I'm sure this is a problem that other P2P services have solved, there may even be readily available libraries out there to help with this part. Of course, this whole solution would rely on the generosity of individuals to run proxies for the community to use.

I still think that the way FG does things today is probably the best compromise in terms of cost and reliability, even if it does force a little bit of the pain onto the users.

Blacky

September 12th, 2014, 19:59

Griogre

September 12th, 2014, 20:09

Also, if you go that way I would hope you maintain a standard host/client option as well.

darrenan

September 12th, 2014, 21:43

In the only answer to NAT&routing is SmiteWorks hosted middle servers than yes I believe it's not a good idea, at least by default. Especially since IPv4 is dying (slowly yes, it should already be dead and under 6 feet, but still) and with UPnP more and more common.

But as Zeus said is certainly worth investigating several scenarii and solutions, maybe something development light can be done in the meantime. Or not.

As for connectivity, which is a far wider subject than just NAT routing and rtfm, there's several things in the FGNext don't forget list (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?22069-FGNext-Unity-don-t-forget-list).

UPnP is a higher level networking protocol, and uses IP for its transport. UPnP solves the discovery and connection issues, and could be part of the proxy solution I described above, but it doesn't do anything to solve the NAT and firewall issue. IPv4 vs. IPv6 is largely an orthogonal issue as well. At the end of the day, the core issue is establishing a connection from point A to point B, which firewalls and NATs are trying to prevent.

idjester

September 13th, 2014, 06:44

But let's keep in mind the big (global) picture, any connection issue means potential loss of players. In the 10 players that I polled from my other gaming groups, 2 were former fantasy grounds players that switched because of connection issues. My sampling is of course just a small player base but let's think about the % of players that have connection issues and what that is going to do to the player base in fantasy grounds. This whole post (at least for me) was about how new players go about coming to fantasy and the reasons behind (potentially) the smaller player base. Of those 2 players that formally used fantasy grounds 1 of them told me that their whole group switched to another VTT because the connection was such a problem, so that is potentially some 4-6 total players that switched. Then let's multiply that by maybe x5 because you know for sure that those players told their friends or people they knew about it and of course they steered them away from joining fantasy ground. So that connection issue just cost fantasy ground (maybe) 20-30 players that went somewhere else. This is lost revenue that goes somewhere else.

You could have lost me as a potential player as well because of this connection issue, (which I'm sure some of you probably would wish that would happen at this point). I'm a teckie guy, I setup routers at work, I worked through the steps shown on the website, I talked and worked with my cable company (yes I did just about everything I could do)... But you say to yourself -so what --that is only a loss of one guy --- big deal. Well that is small minded thinking again because your not thinking BIG picture. Small picture is the loss of one guy on fantasy grounds but let's look big picture again for a second and see.

If I would have decided that fantasy grounds wasn't worth the problems that it was giving me because of my connection issues, then I wouldn't have posted those 3 fantasy grounds VTT tutorial videos that have about 125 in the last 2 weeks, I wouldn't have posted the 3 videos on how to create modules in fantasy ground that have another 90 views, I wouldn't have posted the how to parse 5e video that has another 60 views. Of course I wouldn't have posted the two campaign files that I run in fantasy ground that have another almost 500 watches. That is approximately about 750 video views in two weeks on my youtube channel showing people how to use fantasy grounds and having them watch how it plays in a campaign. Which of course if good advertising for fantasy grounds.

Let's look at the other end of the spectrum, I could have been one pissed off mother because I spent all of this money on a product that I couldn't get to work, I could have recorded a video and uploaded it to my channel about how not to buy fantasy grounds because it doesn't work because it has connection issues. All of a sudden those 750 or so positive videos turn into 750 people watching a video about why you shouldn't buy fantasy grounds and how it doesn't connect right. I could have recorded a video talking with my other group that switched from fantasy grounds to another VTT and had everyone listen to them talk about all of the problems with fantasy grounds. All of a sudden this one problem can cause something to starts and blossoms into a much bigger problem for fantasy grounds, hence the meaning of the topic a few days ago "why are people not coming to fantasy grounds".

Every single issue, every single problem, every single negative things posted, can grow into something much bigger then just the fact that 1 person didn't join fantasy grounds and decided to go somewhere else for the VTT needs. You have to start thinking big picture and the ramifications for each of those issues or problems that comes up. Every gamer out there knows at least another 5-10 gamers, I personally know about 40 or so that I have regular contact with. Anyone out there could post something on their facebook that would get reposted and the web of linking people then grows from there. And the difference between someone posting "hey you have to check out this really cool program called fantasy grounds", and "don't try this crappy program called fantasy grounds because it can't connect" is huge and goes beyond the 1 person that didn't join the group.

This post I have focus on talking about the connection issue (because that was the current discussion) but you can substitute any issue in its place and it still plays out the same. Someone could be having issues with error messages within the game, someone could have bought it for 4th edition dnd and realizes that no actual data comes in the game, they could being disconnected from the game, they could get error messages when loading characters into the program, someone can't find a game to join, or anything else... but the outcome is just the same. It's not just one person that leaves or quits fantasy grounds it's much more than that when you look at it big picture. They quit, they get their gaming group to quit, they tell everyone they know not to use the program, they post nasty messages on youtube/facebook/twitter, they lie about the program to convince others not to even look at it, they review it and give it a bad score... all of these things just cause issues for getting players to join fantasy grounds and hence you end up with a smaller player base.

To be totally honest with you I have played just about as many online games in roll20 as fantasy grounds so far and I have not had a single issue with roll20, now I realize that they both interface differently but if we look at the issues I have with fantasy grounds:
1) can't have players connect through my internal router
2) players have dropped in the game
3) 4th edition character imported with numerous errors that I had to spend time fixing
4) have gotten error message in the game when running it
5) lack of 4th edition information

if others out there were having similar issues with the game you could understand them being mad and frustrated with the program and you could understand them switching to another program where they wouldn't have these issues. (I guess I'm just to stubborn).

Mask_of_winter

September 13th, 2014, 06:56

So what are you willing to do to make it better?

Blacky

September 13th, 2014, 06:57

But let's keep in mind the big (global) picture, any connection issue means potential loss of players. In the 10 players that I polled from my other gaming groups, 2 were former fantasy grounds players that switched because of connection issues.
You should refine your wording, because connection/connectivity issues is a pretty large area. Concerning Fantasy Grounds, that's at least:

Can't host because of NAT or weird networking thing
Can't host because of firewall
Can't host because of shitty internet not allowing proper TCP port connections
Everything is slow
Half images don't show up
Half tokens don't show up
Console get flooded with arcane errors
People are disconnected

And so on, all of these network related, some of these corrected this past year (but people have memory for these kind of experience). And not all are bugs, some of these are because of shitty internet connection, people don't reading their manuals, and so on.

But yes, I do believe that NAT issues (the problem being 95% of the time between the chair and the keyboard, but customers mostly don't want to hear that sadly) are more frequent that the forum reading lead to believe.

Between FG and Rolisteam (another VTT with the same hosting mechanism), over half the GM I had these past few years (around 30, 40) had NAT issues, from barely being able to click a mouse to forgetting about it and don't knowing by heart how to correct it.

Let's look at the other end of the spectrum, I could have been one pissed off mother because I spent all of this money on a product that I couldn't get to work
To be honest, from what I saw on the forums, if you really can't work the product you'll get a refund. SmiteWorks are good and fair like that.

Every single issue, every single problem, every single negative things posted, can grow into something much bigger then just the fact that 1 person didn't join fantasy grounds and decided to go somewhere else for the VTT needs. You have to start thinking big picture and the ramifications for each of those issues or problems that comes up.
Agreed, not specifically about this issues but yes problems (reals or perceived) can quickly turn into something else. Unfortunately, Fortune 500 companies don't know how to deal with these, SmiteWorks with its 2~4 people won't. They can try, keep an eye out, but willing and getting it fully done are on two different galaxies.

darrenan

September 13th, 2014, 07:06

Since Roll20 is web-based, nobody is really connecting to 'you' per se. The GM and the players are all talking to servers, again, reiterating what was said before. When everyone using a piece of software is only making outbound connections, connection issues typically aren't much of an issue. It's when inbound connections are involved that things get complicated with routers/firewalls. Right now, we concede this point to Roll20 until such a time as SW has the resources to either run dedicated servers as well, or pursue some kind of proxying/P2P solution like I proposed, either of which would expensive in terms of man-hours, support or just $$$ that would probably be better used in other areas.

And to address your five points above, I think Roll20 has 3) and 5) as well, as this is an issue with WotC/4E, not FG or Roll20. Unless folks have put 4E information up and WotC just hasn't enforced it. I'll concede the other three, all great points. Number 4) again is a problem with all software really. It is really really really hard to write software that is 100% free of bugs.

idjester

September 13th, 2014, 07:54

Thanks for your input but I believe that I am not making myself totally clear... This isn't ME saying "you have connection issues", or ME saying "this program sucks"..

This is about a guy on the internet called JOE BLOW, this is some guy we (me and you) don't know. How do we get JOE BLOW to join fantasy grounds as a player and therefor increase our player base.

It doesn't matter to JOE BLOW on the internet if his connection issue is a firewall, a NAT issue, or a TCPIP port issue. All he knows is he can't connect and that pisses him off.

Same goes for problem A, B or C... and you can use any issue mentioned for A, B, or C... JOE BLOW is not going to want to join fantasy grounds and spend his hard earned money if he runs into issue A, B, or C... Then JOE BLOW is going to tell everyone he knows that fantasy grounds is crap because he ran into issue A, B, or C...

What the developers/the community/the website/the software program... needs to do is convince JOE BLOW that he should spend his hard earned money and join in to fantasy grounds but he will not do this is there is going to be problem A, B, or C....

BIG picture if we want to get a bigger player base, if the developers want more income to come in, if we want more players playing and posting games then we need to make sure that there isn't any issues so that JOE BLOW on the internet decides to spend his money and joins in fantasy grounds otherwise JOE BLOW will go somewhere else. This isn't about me or how I feel, this is only me saying -- hey here are some of the issues that could be causing fantasy grounds not to get players to join. You could be telling me to go f-off if you wanted too or argue with my points but that doesn't change the fact that there are A, B, and C issues.... which will cause people to leave fantasy grounds and look elsewhere. Debating the issues, trying to clarify the issues, or discussing if its a TCPIP or NAT issue isn't BIG picture going to change JOE BLOWS feeling about fantasy grounds when he runs into issue A, B or C. That issue is going to piss him off, make him waste time or money trying to fix or solve it and adventually JOE BLOW is going to give up on fantasy grounds and go somewhere else. This has happened, it's currently happening, and it will continue to happen unless we can show someone like JOE BLOW (or myself) that fantasy grounds is better than everything else out there and we can not do this is fantasy grounds has issue A, B, or C....

As mentioned, if you want more players than you need to do something else other then what you are currently doing because that doesn't seam to be working very well. If you have players going somewhere else then you need to do something to get them to come there instead and they certainly won't do that if there are ANY issues. It doesn't matter if that issue is a NAT problem or a disconnect, it doesn't matter if that issue is connection or lack of understanding the program.... whatever the issue if it pisses off JOE BLOW he will leave and go somewhere else.

Blacky

September 13th, 2014, 10:01

Myself I do know that, I understood your posts this way.

Still, for the “connectivities” issues, this need some refinements to be clear what we are talking about because the answer isn't the same for all. Some are (having a true decent resume function will help everyone for example), most aren't. Helping (is possible) NAT issues has nothing to do with helping people with lots of packet loss which has nothing to do with helping people with slow upload, and so on.

From a marketing point of view, it may be good to note that apart from Ultimate versions and one little optional tool, Fantasy Grounds doesn't depend on anything. SmiteWorks websites are down from time to time, I GMed several times through those downtimes without even noticing. Roll20, if the website is down, if there is some backbone black fiber issues (like can't connect from Germany or Bresil one evening) well you can't play, period. That's a plus for FG. Same goes for advanced heavy features (like dynamic lighting and field of view): you can do nice things with advanced html5 & javascript (although coding, testing and Q&A can be quite a bitch because each browser has its own implementation) but it will never ever be faster or lighter than a native application, C++ is always faster than javascript :-)

As for

As mentioned, if you want more players than you need to do something else other then what you are currently doing because that doesn't seam to be working very well..

I disagree. I would have agreed, like two years back or so. I don't anymore. It's far from perfect, but I think they are steadily on the right track. CoreRPG was a fundamentally good thing, as was getting on Steam, as was a free FG 3.0, as was a inch of i18n capability, as was the wiki, as was the push for social networking, as was the rewrite project (FGNext/Unity)… and even more important than anything else, they're listening more. But there's a lot of inertia, a lot. The good and the bad. The old bad stays around for a long time, and the good take a steady push for a long time before showing good things.

So yes, even with the small money and manpower capability of SmiteWorks, they could do better here and there. Hence why we are talking about all of that. But I don't think at all they are fundamentally wrong about what they are doing. Drastically changing course right now, even if I'm wrong about all that, would not help in my opinion.

But if I understood correctly, what you are saying could be said like this: the user experience of Fantasy Ground, especially the non geek newcomer, should be the main focus of FGNext. A nice new feature, I don't know token stacking or map labels would be nice, but the user experience of its gaming through FG, whatever the game, is core and should stay the core focus for the next years.

And I agree with that. Network issues are only a part of that, although an important part (because if one can't connect, one won't get to the point where contextual help or whatever is done for newcomers and appreciate it).

Mellock

September 13th, 2014, 12:48

they're listening more. But there's a lot of inertia

I just wanted to throw in a few more things: the games forum, the ultimate license (the community asked for a way to make players connect for free back then), the subscrubtion license,... If you browse the forums a lot, you'll notice that a lot of the things they implemented were actually things the community asked about. I really don't think there's as much inertia as you may imply (Although you may imply more than you actually think). As I see it, they've been bending over backwards to give people on the forums as much as they could, while still working a 2-man part time job to make the core product better.

I'd rather think it terms of symbiosis: while they try to do as much as they can, the community is free to do as much as *they* can. Running FG-con, making rulesets, putting adventures into modules, writing extensions, the entire parser... all of this takes so horribly much man hours. So, perhaps instead of thinking of it as "how can I get them to do this", people are encouraged to think "how can *I* make this happen. Just wanted to offer a bit of "it's relative".

Blacky

September 13th, 2014, 13:19

No this wasn't the kind of inertia (I'm using the word as in momentum) I was talking about. I'm talking about us users, well mostly the users that don't spend their times on the forums (for whatever reason). Last week I talked to someone who haven't use his FG because they numpad didn't work (which was addressed something like 3 years ago), or a month before someone didn't updated his FG 2.9.x because he didn't want to pay for the 3.0 upgrade.

People have an experience, they remember it. If they switch to something else, they're likely to stay with that something else.

It's in part because of the lack of communication. In part in those cases because there's no i18n. In part because of human inertia. And there's other parts too.

JohnD

September 13th, 2014, 15:25

So what are you willing to do to make it better?
Walls of complaint text apparently.

ddavison

September 13th, 2014, 16:40

idjester, I think your point is understood and we are working on steps to improve and address some of them. As of May, I've left my much higher paying corporate job to work on SmiteWorks full time. That is how much I believe in the future of this product. The future is very bright in my opinion, but not without challenges. Moon_Wizard also spends a large amount of time each week working on the code. We are working on a lot of the bigger issues in the background and try to occasionally roll out with some of the smaller, more visible changes when we can. Whenever either one of us focuses too much time on one area, then other issues which are important to people begin to get delayed.

I appreciate when users post their concerns. Sometimes they are presented in a somewhat harsh way (i.e. "the developers should be ashamed"), but we try to look past that to what the real issue is. As has been mentioned earlier, this is something that we listen to and respond to. The cost to entry was a huge barrier and now we have a $10 a month Ultimate subscription that I believe addresses that point fairly well. We could have done a free month trial or something, and still might one day, but I think people still have to work through a few of the setup issues you mentioned above and they'd be less likely to simply walk away and miss out on the benefits of Fantasy Grounds if they didn't have *any* money invested. We see the support requests that come in and so we have a pretty good idea of the areas that need improvement. The major connection issue are something that can't really be addressed without a major re-architect of the core software. We are exploring ways to solve this and other issues with FGNext (FGX or whatever we end up calling it).

Carthar

September 13th, 2014, 17:00

Let's avoid attacking the messenger.

I think what is being said is when he talked to people about FG, these where their perceptions. Pointing out they are wrongs isn't going to help. These are perceptions that indicate better messaging is needed.

Most purchasing decisions are made off of very little information. You shouldn't judge a book by its cover, but most people often do.

Carth

Mgrancey

September 13th, 2014, 17:51

Maybe it just my perception, but its seems like you are comparing oranges to carrots (yes, that was intentional).

You commented on the $700 DLC, but if you were to buy all that stuff physically it would cost the same or more.
You comment on the learning curve, but RPGs have learning curves, some more steep than others.
I am aware you know this isn't a game, but software, and all software takes time to learn. You learn it part by part.

You talk about getting large numbers of people, which yes would be nice for Smiteworks, but I am not a nice enough, or good enough person to worry about nameless, faceless, people that don't want to put a little effort out to learn a program or to go about it logically. I know that I am an outlier in many ways when it comes to society. My personality type (INTP) is less than 5% of USA population, I have Asperger's at least mildly. I don't understand, generally like, or care about most people. However, its seems that you are laying alot of issues on people here and on Smiteworks.

(This next section won't be nice)
There are many, many: stupid, lazy, ignorant, incompetent, and sheeple out there. I DON'T care about their opinion and in all honestly we (FG community) are very probably better off without them. I bought software for personal, and mostly selfish use. Just because I bought an Ultimate license doesn't put any kind of obligation on no matter what people (and not naming names, mostly cause I don't feel like looking) seem to think. Instead of taking all this time to point out what is wrong, offer suggestions, offer ideas. Critque NOT Criticism!

Gaming in my biggest and most important hobby, I obsess over it to a point (I maintain strong control so it doesn't override my life), I enjoy sharing my hobby. I enjoy teaching and bringing new people into it. I have too many campaigns and ideas running around in my head and I will never get to see them to fruition. So please just stop. Just f-n stop. Until you add, until you help, until you are positive rather than negative please just stop.

For the last, what 2 weeks, its seems like every time I come to these forums, and these are the only forums I come to, I check Facebook much less than I do these forums; negative, complaint-ridded threads have headlined, pretty much constantly.

So, please stop being negative and start being positive.

Griogre

September 14th, 2014, 19:17

One thing I think where the OP was correct is it's too hard for new players to do the most common things. Yes, FG is a complex beast but the complexity should be layered on for the user in plateaus only after the very basics. In particular, targeting a token and making a die roll should be a "click target, click character sheet field/shortcut/throw die" process. Order should not matter for single targets and there needs to be a better visual feedback one which target(s) have been selected and who selected it. This functionality needs to be in the core ruleset so it is available there and to every ruleset derived from it.

The old targeting rings worked better for hand to hand combat and the new arrows work better for single target long range combat. I think you should have both color rings and arrows when you target something. The core ruleset targeting is obviously not going to auto resolve hits or misses but it should indicate the roll, any modifiers and what target the roll was made against. The target should not have to be on the combat tracker as well. Obviously this would require a new dedicated targeting system. The unity conversion could be a good place to add this.

A lot of the complexity of the FG rulesets revolve around having to run too much through the combat tracker. Its the most complex part of most rulesets and its an organically grown mass of code that grew from a initiative order tracker for the GM only into something that does *everything*. These parts should really be broken into subsystems with only the actual combat resolution determination being in the non core ruleset.

Andraax

September 14th, 2014, 19:38

In particular, targeting a token and making a die roll should be a "click target, click character sheet field/shortcut/throw die" process. Order should not matter for single targets and there needs to be a better visual feedback one which target(s) have been selected and who selected it. This functionality needs to be in the core ruleset so it is available there and to every ruleset derived from it.

This is already in the Core ruleset. Ctrl-Click to target, then click on the attack field to roll your "to hit". To see who you're currently targeting, you have the targeting arrows on the map, and targets are also listed on the combat tracker. The targeting rings were a pain in the butt, especially when you had four players that were all using the same color...

PhorgottenSon

September 14th, 2014, 21:44

I have to disagree somewhat with Mgrancey. I think the community needs both critique and criticism. Sometimes people either feel they haven't invested enough time to have the right to offer suggestions, or don't know of a better solution, or could be wanting to crowd-source an even better solution than they could have come up with themselves. I feel FG's developers have continued to be able to distill complaints and criticisms down to their core and determine what claims have merit, what doesn't, and what is out of the developers hands.

Now I would like to toss out some suggestions:
1. Connection Issues. As already detailed in this thread, they are going to happen with the current server/client setup and I prefer that way over a central server that raises costs and risks of downtime. However, on the Load Campaign screen there is the Connection Test button and text box. I think if the test is failed, you could include a link in the text box or a pop up that goes to the stickied forum post FG Knowledge Base - Firewalls.

2. Learning curve. Yes, a learning curve is to be expected, but more can be done to better introduce new players and GMs. My idea, a new sub-forum called Starter Village or something similar. The forum would be split by ruleset, and then feature tutorial posts and videos. Then include an in-game help or tutorial button that either goes directly to the ruleset being used in that game or the main sub-forum page Starter Village. These tutorials and help can be community created and curated to keep up with updates and changes.

3. DLC costs perception. Yes, over $700 in DLC is available and I think at quick glance it is a good value. No one goes into a game shop and sees all the full shelves and thinks they have to buy one of everything in the store but software is different. Some people see that amount of DLC and fear the software is severely limited until you buy tons of extras. That perception is unlikely to ever be fulled remedied, but maybe we can make it much better with a little bit of marketing magic. Right now in the Steam store, the four-pack calls the game the "base game" and none of the DLC is marked as being GM specific, so that players can't easily tell most of it is not for them. Now, I see some player's guides and handbooks, so I think that makes this next suggestion impossible, but here goes, is there a way to call the "base game" the complete or full player's game or package. Something to tell potential players that the $40 game is all the software they have to buy for the majority of rulesets or add wording to the Player's Guides and Handbooks and maybe split the DLC to show what is geared towards players and what is geared towards GMs.

4. Website presentation. This appears to be addressed as something needing looking into, better but not too flashy that people think it is a game itself instead of VTT. I am unable to add much to that discussion.

5. Finding Players or Games. Add a button to the game home screen that links to the forum Guild House. As for game management and stuff like that, like others have said there are better options out there from Facebook to Obsidian Portal to Trello to Google Hangouts. I don't think time spent on that here is time well spent, but aiding in the process of starting a game or finding players or a game is beneficial.

Griogre

September 14th, 2014, 21:54

@Andraax: Don't misunderstand me, I'm a big fan of FG. These are suggestions to make things easier on new users and to push the most functionality into the CoreRPG ruleset so it becomes a better core to build off of *and* is a full featured generic ruleset in its own right that is simple and easy to use.

To your specific observations, the problem isn't the functionality isn't there - its Cntrl Click isn't intuitive. The problem isn't the color rings are the same, the problem is dice colors should not be, by default, the same for each player. The problem with targeting arrows is that if the targeter is lined up with multiple targets next to each other you can't see who is targeted past the first one and you should have good targeting indicators for both range and melee attacks. The problem is there are not clickable fields on the CoreRPG character sheet since they are all string tabs with no option for clickable number fields.

The targeting system is the first thing new players will try to use and currently its not intuitive, or clear. There is also no mechanism to encourage a common targeting mechanic though out every ruleset. That steepens the learning curve of every new player for no real gain. There are a number of individual subsystems that should be split out like the targeting, ie the tokens should all be pointers back to the base monster (and/or individual monster instances) and PC objects.

FG is mature software has had a lot of very cool improvements added to it over the years - but it shows in unnecessary complexity. This VTT would be much simpler to use if all the features had originally been designed together. The unity conversion is an opportunity to make the user experience more intuitive and flatten the learning curve.

Mellock

September 14th, 2014, 23:06

A built in tutorial (guided series of tooltips)? A tooltip mechanism? (something sweet looking, like in the Baldur's Gate games) A help function? I have seen the entire D&D system summarized as "Roll a d20 and hope you roll high". A similar approach to FG à la "When in doubt, right-click on it"?

damned

September 15th, 2014, 03:24

im writing (with help from some helpful friends) a new basic ruleset and im trying to add tooltips everywhere I can...
7439

levinth

September 15th, 2014, 08:45

2. Learning curve. Yes, a learning curve is to be expected, but more can be done to better introduce new players and GMs. My idea, a new sub-forum called Starter Village or something similar. The forum would be split by ruleset, and then feature tutorial posts and videos. Then include an in-game help or tutorial button that either goes directly to the ruleset being used in that game or the main sub-forum page Starter Village. These tutorials and help can be community created and curated to keep up with updates and changes.

I think this could be a really promising idea and a good fix until such time as features that cause the steep learning curve could be improved on and changed. I know there is the house of healing on the forums for asking specific questions, but a space to list people who don't mind being PMed about running demo/ explanation sessions would be nice.

I'm about to start writing some fact sheets to follow for people who (like me) find it hard to learn from video tutorials, so it would be nice to have a space for them too. :p

Seriously though, I think within this community there are a lot of people who want to see FG succeed and simple, positive initiatives like this, must be a good starting point.

RosenMcStern

September 15th, 2014, 16:35

It doesn't matter to JOE BLOW on the internet if his connection issue is a firewall, a NAT issue, or a TCPIP port issue. All he knows is he can't connect and that pisses him off.

This is quite simple... and quite true.

Together with the subject of pricing, this is the major issue you face when using FG. There ARE technical justifications for this (client/server vs. web software), but Joe the User does not give a copper coin about these. He just says "this software is not for me".

Fixing this was not a major issue when all VTTs had the same issue (MapTools fares a little bit better, but it still has issues). But with Roll20 available, the issue becomes extremely visible.

-- although I personally find the Roll20 website to be horrid. It may be a generational thing.

Or it may be that those guys are good at social engineering and awful at software usability. Seriously, the Roll20 interface is awful, both in game and out of the game. Widgets are big, sure, as you should expect in the age of touchscreens, but is the program usable on a portable device? In my experience, no: you need a PC-level machine to run Roll20, so you are supposed to have a mouse. Why make those buttons so big if you MUST have a pointing device installed to use it? It's just "fashionable", not really any more usable than the FG site.

Maybe the FG site needs some restyling, but taking Roll20.net as a model... well, you might as well take Windows 8 as an example. I wouldn't bet my money on the popularity gain ;) Better trust your taste, Doug.

ddavison

September 15th, 2014, 22:49

im writing (with help from some helpful friends) a new basic ruleset and im trying to add tooltips everywhere I can...
7439

I do like tooltips, although they don't translate to touch interfaces if we move more that way.

I'll post a screenshot of something new I'm trying with a help tab that is created when the screen is opened and destroyed again when it is closed - so it doesn't inflate the DB size.

Now, for the other topic of first impressions, I mocked up some videos today and played around with a new possible landing page. I posted a forum link here to keep it focused to that topic. Be gentle.

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?22107-New-FG-Landing-page&p=187145#post187145

damned

September 16th, 2014, 00:01

I do like tooltips, although they don't translate to touch interfaces if we move more that way.

is there any actual movement in that direction though?
right now it looks like you already have your hands full :)

ddavison

September 16th, 2014, 00:28

is there any actual movement in that direction though?
right now it looks like you already have your hands full :)

Touch is really independent of FG since we already support some touch gestures. I should have said "when people move more that way" instead of making it sound like it's a choice by Smiteworks.

damned

September 16th, 2014, 00:37

Ok - but how many people actually use a windows touch device vs Android or iPad.
I have 2 Windows 8 touch devices but I play FG on my main laptop which is not touch

My reference to touch and I think the markets desire for touch is more around using an Android or iPad tablet to join in on FG sessions....
I was just curious on that front.

Ill have to test tooltips on the Win tablet - Im sure there will be a way to display them... you'd think so anyway!

What are your thoughts on something that would replace or enhance tooltips?
Tooltips do only provide a tiny piece of info but it is very contextual...

ddavison

September 16th, 2014, 00:49

Again, I still like tooltips...

We have had this discussion internally though, because they basically lock you into using a mouse and when you look at touch-enabled interfaces, you don't register the hover over event. I just picked up two new laptops for the last gen con show and they were both touch-screen Windows laptops/notebooks. At Best Buy, I'd say the majority of the systems were touch. The demographics are not going to switch over night, but they probably will. Most college age people grew up with touch on phones and tablets and now expect that same sort of interface on their computers.

See the image below:
7444

I registered a text string (for localization) which contains fully formatted text for FG wrapped in a CDATA tag that is loaded dynamically onto the help screen and can be replaced with language for other languages once we get to that stage. The empty attribute for ft controls still doesn't support formatted multi-line text, so a script calls and loads it into the DB temporarily upon window open and clears it again on window close.

damned

September 16th, 2014, 00:55

I'd say the majority of the systems were touch. The demographics are not going to switch over night, but they probably will. Most college age people grew up with touch on phones and tablets and now expect that same sort of interface on their computers.

even though my primary device is not touch - its covered in finger prints from where I have attempted to execute a touch action!

how does the user access the data in your screenshot above? press f1? where do you hit f1 on a touch screen? if its one page of data for the whole screen how do you know what info to present...? fun and games.

ddavison

September 16th, 2014, 03:16

They touch or click on the tab to access the help tab. The help tab would have help for the entire windowclass section. If you have any abbreviations, these would go here along with tutorial style descriptions of how to use that section. It works better for smaller sections as opposed to giant sections like the character sheet where each tab may need some explanation. If that is the case, then you would need to break the help into various sections with headings for each sub-tab you wanted to explain.

Coanunn

September 17th, 2014, 08:11

Walls of complaint text apparently.

*Sigh* :mad: Ok, so this is not going to be a nice post and will likely not make me any friends but you sir are part of the problem. As are many of those posting to "protect Fantasy Grounds". Look, even if the OP was wrong about everything he said factually (which Doug even posted stating he agreed with points the OP made), it is still the impression he got after using the software, and digging awful deep over the course of several weeks of use. There is no need to "circle the wagons" and make snide remarks about what a CUSTOMER is supposed to do to make the PRODUCT they bought better. Instead you see his feedback as some of the most constructive in the thread rather than the rhetoric of "We don't need their kind". The best feedback a company can receive is when their customers are unsatisfied. If it gets swept under the rug or their fans chase away the new customer the company never grows. Are you actually going to lose anything because this user presented problems (in many cases along with suggestions on how it should work - better known as constructive criticism) to Smiteworks? No, at worst a patch will come out that adds a feature you don't think you want or need but someone else might need to use.

If I bought a blender, got it home and found out it was going to take me a month to "learn how to use it" and that I was required to take a class from other blender owners rather than getting a manual from the manufacturer I'd take the thing back and demand my money back. Fantasy Grounds currently does exactly that to a new customer. "Here is our software and if you look hard enough you can find a tutorial somewhere". Yet if I pull up Roll20, D20Pro or hell even maptools the tutorials are AMAZINGLY available without the user having to do much digging at all. Maptools, a 100% free program, which is hands down the single most powerful VTT available and has perhaps the hardest interface to use and the largest learning curve is in some ways more accessible than Fantasy Grounds. If you want a case in point ask the average Mac user to join your game. Not a Fantasy Grounds guru or a Mac power user who modifies their OS but the guy who buys his macbook off the shelf and never modifies anything in the OS. I guarantee that user won't even understand the instructions on how to install it, case in point it is how I lost a good player this week.

It is shameful that a "cross platform" product doesn't even have a native application for Mac but instead has not one but two separate posts in the forums that teach the work around to install the Windows client on a Mac or Linux machine. It is a complete disaster that one of those threads tells the user to make multiple OS configuration changes. It is nearly a crime (in fact I'd go so far as to say it likely does constitute a 'fit for purpose' violation in the UK and could cause Steam to be forced to process a refund on all purchases) that the Steam store does not have a bright bold warning that DLC purchased is locked to Windows Only and that a Mac user who purchases Fantasy Grounds via Steam can not use the DLC from Steam.

The discussion of Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds is deep and myriad and frankly there is no "one is better than the other" answer. Some groups will find one works for them far better than the other. Power users on both sides will be able to line up and snipe at each other's products all day with no real gain to the community. That said, telling a new user, a customer who purchased a product that their "walls of complaint text" doesn't help is denial of the underlying problem. If this user feels this way after a few weeks of research how does the more average player who may log in once a week to play in a game run by a GM for a total of 2-4 hours feel? Does that customer who had to pay for the player license also get told they "aren't doing enough" simply because they expect to be able to use the product to play a game after paying for access? You know, if only 10% of the player base of Roll20 are paying customers that still means that likely 50% of the total are playing in the games run by those 10% (average group size according to WotC's extensive demographics campaign was 4-5. That means that 60% of the people who even sign up for free on Roll20 are retained, happy customers. That isn't because they are lazier than the Fantasy Grounds community or less "special snowflake" than any one who uses Fantasy Grounds, it just means Roll20 is doing a good job of delivering a product the customer is happy with while currently Fantasy Grounds struggles to do so and those who do survive the "growing pain" of learning to use it become far more clique-ish for the experience.

Recently I posted about and talked about the lack of automation available for the Savage Worlds ruleset. One statement made to me by someone I consider a good acquaintance was "if you can't count by four you are stupid". Did that help the fact that counting by four is required for the ruleset to work properly? Did their comment actually add anything? No, it was an attempt to hide a deficiency in the current design behind rhetoric that equal functionality to the other rulesets was not needed in savage worlds. It was pointed out that "variables change" such as varying target numbers. Yet I bet if we look at the Pathfinder functionality for targeted rolls there are quite a bit of variable target numbers based on a significant number of states and effects. Sure, some GM's may consider it "slower" to deal with that and may choose to bypass the functionality entirely but to make excuses about how it isn't needed is exactly what this topic could twist into as well, excuses for why Fantasy Grounds doesn't need to change to meet the market expectation. One last example, If McDonalds and Burger King are competing and McDonalds decides not to listen to all the naysayers, sooner or later those naysayers become Burger King customers because they got tired of not being heard and even given an option. If enough players come to Fantasy Grounds, spend a month trying to learn the software and can't why would they not go to Roll20 and play there for free on an interface they can access for any web browser with no special knowledge of networking, OS configuration, downloading user made extensions and addons, etc? If Burger King tomorrow starts selling Whoppers that require the customer talk to other Whopper owners to find out how to access the different ingredients, I bet a lot of people would stop buying Whoppers.

Andraax

September 17th, 2014, 13:58

If enough players come to Fantasy Grounds, spend a month trying to learn the software and can't why would they not go to Roll20 and play there for free on an interface they can access for any web browser with no special knowledge of networking, OS configuration, downloading user made extensions and addons, etc?

I'll tell you why I spent the time to learn to use this software. First, it's better than Roll20 (and I'm a Backer level supporter), and second, if Smiteworks folds tomorrow I can still use Fantasy Grounds to play and lose nothing I have developed over the years, indeed I can continue to improve the product on my own. If Roll20 folds tomorrow, everything I have done and setup and all future scheduled games go away and become pretty much unusable. As is true of pretty much anything - the more you put into it, the more you get out of it.

ddavison

September 17th, 2014, 14:26

Do the Roll20 users think that macros in Roll20 are easier to use than the features in FG? I can't imagine that is the case after watching some videos on how to create your own macros.

Some examples from their wiki:

/roll 1d20 + @{Guard|Intelligence|max}
/roll 2d20 + ?{Modifier|0}
/roll 1d20 + @{target|Target1|HP} vs @{target|Target2|AC}

Some of our continuing effects and advanced attacks can get fairly complex but most of our automation simply requires drag and drop. To create most of our effects, you cycle through a set of options or use a right-click menu to add an effect, power, etc.

Blacky

September 17th, 2014, 14:47

…most of our automation simply requires drag and drop…
True, but only if one play D&Dish or maybe Call of Cthulhu, and has read extensive forums posts or watch tutorials on how things works.

Blacky

September 17th, 2014, 14:48

I mocked up some videos
I just stumble unto this, even if I don't like that product it seems like a good marketing video, “trailer” as they say, about a text/dev product. Something similar for Fantasy Grounds, just as an intro or broad overview, could so some tricks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCZeYZBdtFw

JohnD

September 17th, 2014, 15:41

*Sigh* :mad: Ok, so this is not going to be a nice post and will likely not make me any friends but you sir are part of the problem.

...

If I bought a blender, got it home and found out it was going to take me a month to "learn how to use it" and that I was required to take a class from other blender owners rather than getting a manual from the manufacturer I'd take the thing back and demand my money back. Fantasy Grounds currently does exactly that to a new customer.

...

If Burger King tomorrow starts selling Whoppers that require the customer talk to other Whopper owners to find out how to access the different ingredients, I bet a lot of people would stop buying Whoppers.
OK well, this may be the first time I've been earmarked as part of a "problem" in my life, but I'll try to look past that.

I'm afraid I can't address the rest because not only am I The Problem, but more importantly, I just took delivery of a 777 Dreamliner and can you believe it; it's going to take a few days to figure out how to use it.

There's only so much a company of two or three people working in their spare time can manage; perhaps that is the difference between FG and your blender created by a huge multinational company.

ddavison

September 17th, 2014, 16:35

True, but only if one play D&Dish or maybe Call of Cthulhu, and has read extensive forums posts or watch tutorials on how things works.

I would disagree there. Most of the rulesets on the wiki support some level of built-in automation for double-clicking skills or abilities. It may not always compare against a target # automatically, but I'd say that is pretty much standard. All of the official rulesets support a fair amount of drag and drop functionality.

Coanunn

September 17th, 2014, 16:50

I would disagree there. Most of the rulesets on the wiki support some level of built-in automation for double-clicking skills or abilities. It may not always compare against a target # automatically, but I'd say that is pretty much standard. All of the official rulesets support a fair amount of drag and drop functionality.

I'll be honest, I don't consider a VTT allowing dice rolls to be automation. If your system doesn't roll dice then it is nothing more than a shared image program which I could just as easily do by holding pictures up in front of a web cam. Automation in this regard is the comparison of one value to another, and recording the effects on the target. This is the automation that Roll20 has added with their new API access for Mentors, the functionality that is built into some of the Fantasy Grounds rulesets, the automation that Fantasy Grounds is actually famous for and is prominently shown in video reviews of the software.

Fantasy Grounds does a lot right even in comparison to Roll20. I have a fairly healthy list of things to cover in the podcast I'm on tonight comparing and contrasting the two because Roll20 is not without weaknesses nor is Fantasy Grounds without strengths. That said, to sit and gloss over the weaknesses is not going to help anything.

There's only so much a company of two or three people working in their spare time can manage; perhaps that is the difference between FG and your blender created by a huge multinational company.
I fully agree, there is only so much they can do but that does not mean the software is not deficient because of it. If as a hobby rocket builder you decide to build a rocket to the moon in your spare time then when it doesn't meet the standard NASA has set and someone notices you don't get to say "yeah, but it won't blow up, I'm only a hobbyist and more can't be expected of me", especially if you are saying that to a customer. Where you become "part of the problem" is by trying to obfuscate the deficiency behind excuses. This is a normal behavior, as we naturally reflexively protect things we care about, but in this case it actually means you are stopping the new eyes from pointing out flaws that to the experienced user no longer stand out.

Trenloe

September 17th, 2014, 16:53

Blacky

September 17th, 2014, 17:00

I would disagree there. Most of the rulesets on the wiki support some level of built-in automation for double-clicking skills or abilities. It may not always compare against a target # automatically, but I'd say that is pretty much standard. All of the official rulesets support a fair amount of drag and drop functionality.
Double clicking skills yes most of them do, drag things and drop them where they would have some kind of effect (damage, bonuses, modifiers for the next skill roll, whatever) is pretty rare.

As for using the hotkey bar for custom or personal automation, it doesn't always work, far from it. Yes those are seriously badly written rulesets, but one can't answer a need for up to date information, tutorials and such with “learn to code” (which is the most common answer about writing rulesets or asking for non specific informations, even if it's more politely said) and on the other hand blame community ruleset for vastly popular games for being bad ;)

I'll be honest, I don't consider a VTT allowing dice rolls to be automation. If your system doesn't roll dice then it is nothing more than a shared image program which I could just as easily do by holding pictures up in front of a web cam.
He wasn't talking about rolling dices, but about skill tests (or similar things, attributes, whatever) that usually involve a (minimal but not non-existent) level of computation.

And I disagree about the webcam. First, I like to play in my undies, but I wouldn't impose that kind of scar to my players. Second, most people don't have the upload bandwith for doing it even half properly. Third, even at the basic level, FG does much more in maps than just showing an image to the players.

Automation in this regard is the comparison of one value to another, and recording the effects on the target.
To be exact, a VTT automation is taking a task, usually a point of rules, and having the computer do it for you. Usually because it's faster, easier, better. I can add all the modifiers, calculus and such, then roll dices, interpret the result, add the modifiers, and give the GM my result. Or I can click a button. The last one is an automation.

Most ruleset, even very bad and ancient ones, have at least a minimal level of automation. With the modifier stack and the hotkey bar, bare or CoreRPG FG can simulate very simple ones too.

ddavison

September 17th, 2014, 17:17

The free-form modifier can be mouse-wheel adjusted as well (or CTRL+mousewheel when set in the preferences.) Seriously, macros and hotkeys were something that FG had in 2004 and 2005. We still provide those, but that is much closer to what most Roll20 people are using today. It's not just a dice roll that indicates automation, it is a series of dice rolls that make up a character sheet, assign a name and some bonus and roll that for all to see. Skill rolls in most systems that support skills have bonuses built on derived values without the need to write your own macro for each and every one. If you are running a game inside of CoreRPG, then you would need to do something very similar; however, there is a reason why people choose to run the custom built ruleset for a game system whenever it is present. To have a full package full of automation specific to your game system of choice is very valuable even when it doesn't also include built-in data to go along with it. Heck, even knowing what data elements are important to track for an item or an NPC in any specific system is incredibly useful.

As for handling of criticisms, we (SmiteWorks) may argue or debate certain points at times but we also take strides to address them as soon as possible. Some things are more addressable than others.

Some recent or common criticisms of FG:
Lack of tutorials? - We added a link to this fairly recently directly from the launcher screen inside Fantasy Grounds. I just added 6 or 7 short ones Monday after this thread.

Not free? - There isn't much we can do here other than make the Ultimate subscription low enough to be affordable for GMs who want their players to play for free.

Website Design - We've made some recent changes to improve this but have some more we can do over time

User Interface Improvements - This is ongoing. Sometimes we take a step backward in one area and a few steps forward in another. A simple program is easier to make a simple interface for. The more power and functionality you add to something, the harder it is to keep the interface simple.

Support for Mac Users? - Along with the threads on manually installing WINE, we have a pre-packaged app available through Steam. DLC on Steam is flagged as Windows only but those items can still be purchased directly from our site and auto-installed through your Steam copy. The Unity re-write will allow us to get away from having to use WINE and this limitation.

Router Configuration for GMs? - This is not going to be immediately addressable other than more tutorials and information built-in to that part of our launch screen (which might help some). We are looking at this in our Unity port.

Blacky

September 17th, 2014, 20:58

As for handling of criticisms, we (SmiteWorks) may argue or debate certain points at times but we also take strides to address them as soon as possible. Some things are more addressable than others.
To comment on this, for small teams that actually answer real people, SmiteWorks handle criticism and fair customer relations much better than most. One may want to take a look at the new Kickstarted Indie scene in videogames and to some extent pen&paper rpg to see what misinformations, lies, fanboys and disreputable business practices can do.

SmiteWorks isn't moving fast, but they are moving, and faster by the year.

Edit: I also think that when SmiteWorks sees something they disagree with, it's good that they speak up. If they stay silent, or just say yes yes yes, then it's bot communication with the feeling that they are treating us like children and don't listen. If they disagree and say so, maybe they're right, maybe they're wrong, in any cases there's a decent chance someone get to learn something in it. Which is always better.

Lack of tutorials? - We added a link to this fairly recently directly from the launcher screen inside Fantasy Grounds. I just added 6 or 7 short ones Monday after this thread.
Haven't seen those, and too soon to tell if they will have any effect. Can't hurt anyway, it's a step in the right direction.

But on a side note, as far as I know, still no ruleset writing tutorials :rolleyes:

Not free? - There isn't much we can do here other than make the Ultimate subscription low enough to be affordable for GMs who want their players to play for free.
I know I'm in the minority, but it's in fact a plus for me. It demonstrate that FG is the product, not us users (i.e. you have less incentive to collect data and monetize us users). It demonstrate things have a cost. As a GM it allows me to estimate the level of commitment of a player asking to enter my campaign.

And if I don't agree with every price scheme, far from it, the core cost price against service rendered even with old/bad ruleset is acceptable, very much so.

Website Design - We've made some recent changes to improve this but have some more we can do over time
Again too soon to tell and still a work in progress, but every bit helps.

On that subject, 87 votes for something as arcane as User comments on FG online manuals… pretty high score for something with no bling :)

User Interface Improvements - This is ongoing. Sometimes we take a step backward in one area and a few steps forward in another. A simple program is easier to make a simple interface for. The more power and functionality you add to something, the harder it is to keep the interface simple.
It's a profession. It's a very hard job, make something complex simple yet powerful, allowing for various devices to use it and the same system, allowing for i18n, and so on.

Support for Mac Users? - Along with the threads on manually installing WINE, we have a pre-packaged app available through Steam. DLC on Steam is flagged as Windows only but those items can still be purchased directly from our site and auto-installed through your Steam copy. The Unity re-write will allow us to get away from having to use WINE and this limitation.
To be honest, those threads are a shame. It's what in total, over 12 ways to install over 3 or 4 different programs? Each and everyone has at least one person saying it doesn't work for him?

I know the technology side of this is hard. But the presentation, the appearance of it, could have been much much better.

But again, Unity will solve this.

Router Configuration for GMs? - This is not going to be immediately addressable other than more tutorials and information built-in to that part of our launch screen (which might help some). We are looking at this in our Unity port.
A modern network library (cf my thread on FGNext) will help connectivity as a whole, but not address NAT issues per se (apart from IPv6). If there's no technological answer to the routing issue, it's a user interface and tutorial ones.

Unless you want to use the Unity rewrite to deport the server part of FG (like the VTT Rolisteam does, where for example anyone can be host, not only the GM, which reduce the rate of problems because there's a much better chance to have someone who read his router manual in a group of 5 or 6 people than just the GM)?

damned

September 18th, 2014, 02:46

If I bought a blender, got it home and found out it was going to take me a month to "learn how to use it"

only a little misreading of your post here - but have you ever tried learning blender? Sheesh. FG is a breeze compared to blender.

Nylanfs

September 18th, 2014, 03:05

hehe, I see what you did there.

dulux-oz

September 18th, 2014, 05:50

But on a side note, as far as I know, still no ruleset writing tutorials

Because, as has been said on innumerable occasions in the past, developing a Ruleset (note I said developing, not writing - because that's what it is) requires a set of base skills in XML, LUA, Logic, Program Design, Graphic Design, and Computer Programming - tutorials for all of those can be found already online - and without those base skills any Tutorial done will be either:

So High Level as to be good only for existing Programmers - in which case won't be useful
So Low Level trying to cover those base skills as to be so Looonnngggg that a viewer would be better off spending the time actually attending a 1st Year University course on Programming - in which case it won't be useful, or
Somewhere in the middle such that important information isn't covered in an effort to keep the damn thing to a reasonable length - in which case won't be useful

As an example, let me ask this: How many Tutorials are out there that cover the creating of a Computer Game such as StarCraft, WoW or even Duke Nuke 'Em (to name a few)?

Of course, if you disagree with me then you can always go and produce your own Tutorial...

Cheers

Morbid-Don

September 18th, 2014, 21:40

THE IDEAL ENVIRONMENT

Whomever can secure a partnership or establish a department with one of the major RPG Publishers is gonna be king when software comes out that sort of mimicks the games shown below - in that - replace the game's AI with a GM/DM who has control over the environment and "mobs" = VIOLA - a mature robust game online GM/DMing option!

Space Hulk:
https://store.steampowered.com/app/242570/

Shadowrun Online:
https://store.steampowered.com/app/267750/

All the game assets and mechanics need to be pre-loaded/bundled in - this shouldn't be the realm of the end consumer...

Granted scalability and customization of course is a must!

In a time when Publishers are experiencing challenges ranging from Book Piracy to a drop in the number of gamers who play PNP RPG aka the community.

You can stay in the stone age and eventually when we're all old and gray - we'll be the last generation to play the PNP Games because Publishers/Designers are too guarded about adopting the next step in an eventual market evolution.

Lets progress forward!

Just and idea/opinion, not meaning to upset or attack anyone

Stay Gaming!

JohnD

September 19th, 2014, 14:51

tiilikainen

September 26th, 2014, 16:19

I have owned a Fantasy Grounds license since 3/28/2009 and have used it consistently since then. Here is my feedback; I hope it's more helpful than a simple wall of text.

Quality. I think Fantasy Grounds development is going in the right direction. After Smiteworks purchased Fantasy Grounds, there was a substantial improvement in the stability and usability of the software. I have never experienced a worsening of the quality of service as the result of a patch, and I think that Smiteworks sets the quality bar high enough--and hurdles it with a consistency that other developers ought to envy. Please keep up the great work.

Community. We have an absolutely fantastic community. I want to give overdue credit to the significant community members who have poured their blood, sweat, and tears into Fantasy Grounds. I don't know that newer people really appreciate how much these folks have contributed to the functionality and experience of Fantasy Grounds. Moon Wizard has been developing and maintaining the D&D rulesets for as long as I can remember and is an indispensable member of the community. DrZeuss/Zeus (and formerly Tenian) wrote programs to assist DMs with module creation. Xorn -- your tutorial videos are wonderfully useful - I'm currently working through your Twitch video on parsing my copy of the PHB. Thank you guys so much for doing what you do. There are many other people I don't know who work on other rule systems--my group has used FG mainly for 3E/4E/5E D&D gaming, but you are all essential. I can't overstate how important community involvement is to the overall Fantasy Grounds product. Fantasy Grounds is the textbook example of how community involvement in a piece of software can vastly improve upon and expand the scope of that software.

Extensibility. I wish that the process of developing new rulesets was less intimidating. I have some software development background, and I very much appreciate how robust the FG API is, but the combination of LUA and XML is very challenging. A standard library of sorts would be much appreciated. I wished that there was a better separation between the presentation layer, the data layer, and the "business rules" layer. If there were some sort of Eclipse or other editor plugin that understood the structure of a Fantasy Grounds ruleset, that would be great. If there was a GUI developer that allowed you to develop a ruleset in a WYSIWYG manner, that would be awesome. I would weep with joy. A set of detailed tutorial videos or webinars would be lovely. I would be very interested to learn about the tool chain that ruleset developers use to implement the rulesets.

Media. The website is fine. It does what it needs to do. The fonts could be adjusted upward in size. There could be a Videos page that collects all of the tutorials together. My opinion is that flashy marketing videos are a waste of money because they cost so much per unit time to produce. Videos that give 60-second demonstrations of various functions of Fantasy Grounds for the Steam store page should be all that's needed. Banner advertising on other websites is fine. I am happy that Smiteworks appears to be spending the majority of their money making Fantasy Grounds a better product.

Dice. Fantasy Grounds has the best-animated dice. Period. Accept no substitutes.

Thanks for reading. =)