5e the state of play

[hawkwind]

I have the urge to run some 5e in not to distant future and I have noticed various comments by various developers that some kind of deal or arrangement might be happening either to do with the Adventurers League or even the ruleset itself. Is there any likely hood of this happening in the next month or so or should get to grips with doctor Zeus 's tool or just use Roll20?

[damned]

Use Zeus's tool.
Why would you use Roll20 - it doesnt have any content either?
And it doesnt have any where like the automation that FG has :)

[Trenloe]

And use Valeros's tool to auto generate your spells module from the Basic Rules PDF: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?21835-D-amp-D-Basic-Rules-PDF-Parser

[hawkwind]

Have you looked at the Custom character sheet for 5e in Roll20? I TS got enough automation on the players side. While I would never use Roll20 for running a pathfinder game i have run successful Labyrinth Lord games on it so for a game as simple as 5e it is an option. Zeus's tool has fifty pages of people struggling to use it and I'm not sure I have the time or the patience. the first part of the Tyranny of Dragons only has a dozen critters in it so inputting them by hand is an option

[Trenloe]

You don't need to parse out all of your info to run a 5E game in FG - the ruleset is pretty (very) good as is and if you just have to input 20 critters for the scenario you plan to run then you won't have too much to do. Valeros's spell parser will give you the spell entries you need and the rest can be done pretty quickly through manual input.

Of course, ready to go player modules would be great, but not having them shouldn't stop you using the 5E ruleset in FG. Start using it now and when/if the 5E content modules come along you'll be ahead of the curve.

[Zeus]

PAR5E is a pretty powerful tool once you master its syntax but I hear you when you say its difficult to get going with. Its a tool I originally developed to support my 5E Beta Playtest games using the early build of the 5E ruleset that John started last year. I shared it with the community to allow for 5E gaming on FG in much the same vein we have supported the previous releases of D&D. I can't comment on anything definitive about official 5E modules nor on availability, albeit to say a dialogue is in progress. ;)

In the interim and while we wait, if you don't fancy tackling PAR5E, you can use Valeros's tool for Spells modules and I'm pretty sure he'd be open to making an NPC version now the DM Basic Rules has been released, if someone approaches and asks him nicely that is. Finally, for 20 or so NPCs and a single adventure set of encounters, the 5E ruleset UI is just as easy and fast to use.

[hawkwind]

PAR5E is a pretty powerful tool once you master its syntax but I hear you when you say its difficult to get going with. Its a tool I originally developed to support my 5E Beta Playtest games using the early build of the 5E ruleset that John started last year. I shared it with the community to allow for 5E gaming on FG in much the same vein we have supported the previous releases of D&D. I can't comment on anything definitive about official 5E modules nor on availability, albeit to say a dialogue is in progress. ;)

In the interim and while we wait, if you don't fancy tackling PAR5E, you can use Valeros's tool for Spells modules and I'm pretty sure he'd be open to making an NPC version now the DM Basic Rules has been released, if someone approaches and asks him nicely that is. Finally, for 20 or so NPCs and a single adventure set of encounters, the 5E ruleset UI is just as easy and fast to use.



I greatly appreciate your work and appreciate that used properly it can do a great deal however compared with the Trenloes Creature parser its not as user friendly, I'm going to have a crack at it so expect to see pleas for help in the PAR5E thread soon

[Sprout]

I greatly appreciate your work and appreciate that used properly it can do a great deal however compared with the Trenloes Creature parser its not as user friendly, I'm going to have a crack at it so expect to see pleas for help in the PAR5E thread soon

So I have to ask. All these people are taking the time to use these parsers - Is there some reason they are not sharing the output so that others in the community do not have to suffer through the same issues/challenges/time??
My ultimate goal would be to be able to use FG fully with 5E, as I am investigating the purchase there are all these little roadblocks that just scream for me to wait and see how it all pans out. I am not trying in any way stir the pot, I am just trying to understand the ramifications I am going to have to deal with should I charge down this path.

[Trenloe]

So I have to ask. All these people are taking the time to use these parsers - Is there some reason they are not sharing the output so that others in the community do not have to suffer through the same issues/challenges/time??
One word - copyright.

5E is not released under an OGL (Open Gaming License) like 3.xE was. Therefore all information, beyond the mechanics of the game, is covered by copyright owned by Wizards of the Coast. On the first page of the D&D Basic Rules PDF:

This material is protected under the copyright laws of the United States of America. Any reproduction or unauthorized use of the material or artwork contained herein is prohibited without the express written permission of Wizards of the Coast.

[Moon Wizard]

The challenge is that Wizards does not license their data. So, sharing modules of 5E data is illegal.

The reason that the parser exists is to allow people to more easily input large amounts of data into FG in a semi-automated fashion. Otherwise, each person would have to input manually through the tabletop.

The data is not required to use all of the sheets, mechanics and features of the 4E ruleset on FG, but it does make preparation much faster.

We are talking to Wizards (again) about licensing their data, but we have had conversations with them on and off for years. Hopefully, they will be more open this time, and allow us to sell data packs in our store.

Cheers,
JPG

[Sprout]

One word - copyright.

5E is not released under an OGL (Open Gaming License) like 3.xE was. Therefore all information, beyond the mechanics of the game, is covered by copyright owned by Wizards of the Coast. On the first page of the D&D Basic Rules PDF:

Trenloe, First let me thank you for taking the time to actually answer my questions and help me understand the benefits vs limitation of what I would call a fairly big purchase/commitment in a gaming tool. Especially one that for me is not a necessity

I get the copyright thing. So you are telling me all the distributed fan created rulesets and such follow copyright? Like Shadowrun & GURPS I have run across in my travels & that I can download. I find this difficult to believe, hence my question about leveraging other users work. In no way would I expect SmiteWorks to get involved in this unless they get the licensing agreement that has been whispered about in the shadows. This was strictly asked from the user to user perspective.

Again thanks for all the insight

[damned]

...all of the sheets, mechanics and features of the 4E ruleset on FG...

5E too!

[Trenloe]

I get the copyright thing. So you are telling me all the distributed fan created rulesets and such follow copyright? Like Shadowrun & GURPS I have run across in my travels & that I can download. I find this difficult to believe, hence my question about leveraging other users work. In no way would I expect SmiteWorks to get involved in this unless they get the licensing agreement that has been whispered about in the shadows. This was strictly asked from the user to user perspective
This is the difference between the mechanics of a game and the intellectual property of material produced for the game - hence why I said "Therefore all information, beyond the mechanics of the game, is covered by copyright..." above. Game mechanics (hoe to play the game) are not covered by US Copyright laws: https://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html

Without game mechanics not being covered by US copyright Smiteworks wouldn't be able to produce the 5E ruleset in the first place.

However, the additional material used to play the game is covered by US copyright:

Material prepared in connection with a game may be subject to copyright if it contains a sufficient amount of literary or pictorial expression. For example, the text matter describing the rules of the game or the pictorial matter appearing on the gameboard or container may be registrable.
This copyright material includes spells, monsters, descriptive text, etc. Hence the need for something like PAR5E or Valeros's spell parser to allow an individual to take copyright material and make a FG module for their own personal use, but the module cannot be distributed without breaking copyright.

[Sprout]

Trenloe & Moon Wizard,

I completely understand now. Thanks for taking the time to explain. So it appears my issue will be collecting/parsing personal data of which I do not really have the time. I have to rethink my plan.

Appreciate the support and responses

[Moon Wizard]

The nice thing is that the automation for 5E rules in FG will take advantage if whatever you give it,

So you can just enter PCs and NPCs as you go, pull maps from online, and read descriptions from book. This is what I personally do for every campaign, since I don't have much time to prep.

Cheers,
JPG

[damned]

and you only need to enter this stuff one time usually - you can export and reuse the stuff as you need it.
many times you will have less than 4 encounters in a gaming session.
you might have to add 2-5 new creatures in your npcs and then you can mix those up with existing ones in your encounters.

just add those spells - err - get the players to add those spells that they require, same with equipment.

you will have the same thing with any other VTT.

the fantasy grounds community doesnt just pay lip service to the copyright rules. they very actively discourage piracy. the tools that people make to help you collect bulk import data may require a bit of patience but they really do work - and someone is investing hundreds of hours into doing the *really* hard work to make it happen.

[hawkwind]

with the copyright restrictions on sharing modules I presume you can't even share them with your players and have to just use them for preparing your adventure? If this isn't the case could i run a game of 5e and another player could share with me and the other players his copy of the PHB in module form?

[damned]

not legally.
im sure it happens but it is discouraged.

[ddavison]

The interface has already changed a little since then, but here is a quick video showing a 5E character being created from the ground up. You don't need any data to drag and drop - just like when you make a character by hand with a paper character sheet. It should take about 5 mins to make a character - maybe longer if you play around with different options and experiment a little.

Video 2 of the FG series is live

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deaJCpiGOxI

[Trenloe]

with the copyright restrictions on sharing modules I presume you can't even share them with your players and have to just use them for preparing your adventure?
You can share the info with your players in game - i.e. You keep the data module but you share it through Fantasy Grounds so the players can use the data during the game when they're connected to the GM. This is equivalent to the GM in a face to face game photo copying a few pages from the PHB (or whichever book) and putting them on the table for the players to use during the game, but the players don't take them away - they're used with the GM present only and is loosely covered under GM personal use.

Distributing an FG module to your players so they can use it themselves when you're not there is the equivalent of giving the players the paper photo copies and letting them take those home and use them, and perhaps they copy them and pass them on, etc.. This is breaking copyright as the information is being reproduced and distributed beyond the purchaser's personal use in their game.

[Griogre]

So to cross the t's and dot the i's of Trenloe's explanation. Let me pick up with how FG allows you to share information with your players - but only when they are connected. Say you have lovingly put together a version of the 5E PH for your personal use. If, as a GM, in the data module activation window you set "Force player load" on that PH by dragging the lightning bolt icon nice to the book, this allows you to share your PH in a legal way.

Now the first time a player connects your PH data is shared to the player and opened. The data is in an encrypted cache and can only be used by the player(s) when they are connected to you - the digital equivalent of sharing you book while the group plays, but *not* letting them each copy and take the book home after a game.

There is another interesting implication here. If you include a few house rules with your PH then the players will get the copy with your house rules while they play with you. Then suppose you or one of your player's play in my game where I also have a PH that has *my* house rules. They or you would use my version of the PH with my house rules just in my game. You always use the current GM's version of the book.

This could be particularly useful with 5E since the design emphasizes that each GM can pick and chose the options for his game.

[Dumpster]

I have a silly question on all of that. I am new to FG but not to the RPG world. My group has moved in several different directions and we are trying to find a way to all play together. FG is looking like our main choice.

My question is this. If you all were to sell the modules on your site, confirming that is it was purchased could you include the digital module that was created? Of course you would have an up charge to the purchase but it seems like that would cover the copy right wouldn't it? If it wasn't done through the site itself would one of the developers who say finished the module sold it personally with a paper and digital copy work? They should be rewarded for the work they have done and this way it could be legit.

I could be wrong but it was going through my head.

I love that you all have so many modules already in the systems like Pathfinder/3.5E even though we know they are open.

[damned]

Welcome @Dumpster - it is definitely a goal of SmiteWorks to be able to sell D&D material all ready and prepped for Fantasy Grounds. Many GMs would appreciate it and pay for it. Unfortunately to date teh Wizards of the Coast havent licensed this stuff to anyone. SW get in contact with them every year and wow them with the features that FG brings to the D&D rulesets but so far no dice... No VTT has been able to get the Wizards to commit to anything which is a real shame. I agree it would also be great to reward people for doing a quality prep job too.

[Trenloe]

My question is this. If you all were to sell the modules on your site, confirming that is it was purchased could you include the digital module that was created? Of course you would have an up charge to the purchase but it seems like that would cover the copy right wouldn't it? If it wasn't done through the site itself would one of the developers who say finished the module sold it personally with a paper and digital copy work? They should be rewarded for the work they have done and this way it could be legit.
To expand on what damned says in the previous post. Copyright covers material in all forms, so providing a different form of the material, even if you have permission to sell the base print/digital copy, requires additional permission from the copyright holder. See the excerpt from the copyright statement in post #9 of this thread.

Even if the material is available for free (the basic D&D PDFs, for example), you can't take that information and distribute it in any form (even for no cost) without breaking copyright.

Basically, you need permission to distribute copyright material in any form, and permission to distribute/sell one form of that material does not give you permission to distribute another form of the same material.

[Dumpster]

Thanks for explaining it better.

I'm pretty sure I have the whole group sold on this system. It looks like the most complete and easiest to use. I have tried a few of the others and although they were nice this one just feels better.